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View Poll Results: Should doctors wash their hands?
Yes. 101 88.60%
No. 13 11.40%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-04-08, 08:56 PM   #1
grundle
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Female Muslim doctors refuse to roll up sleeves to wash hands to kill deadly germs.

I think it's a good idea for doctors to properly wash their hands.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nislam403.xml

Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules'

By Julie Henry and Laura Donnelly

Last Updated: 1:51am GMT 04/02/2008

Muslim medical students are refusing to obey hygiene rules brought in to stop the spread of deadly superbugs, because they say it is against their religion.

Women training in several hospitals in England have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands
, because it is regarded as immodest in Islam.

Universities and NHS trusts fear many more will refuse to co-operate with new Department of Health guidance, introduced this month, which stipulates that all doctors must be "bare below the elbow".

The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.

Minutes of a clinical academics' meeting at Liverpool University revealed that female Muslim students at Alder Hey children's hospital had objected to rolling up their sleeves to wear gowns.

Similar concerns have been raised at Leicester University. Minutes from a medical school committee said that "a number of Muslim females had difficulty in complying with the procedures to roll up sleeves to the elbow for appropriate handwashing".

Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to "scrub" as this left her forearms exposed.

Documents from Birmingham University reveal that some students would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, and warn that it could leave trusts open to legal action.

Hygiene experts said last night that no exceptions should be made on religious grounds.

Dr Mark Enright, professor of microbiology at Imperial College London, said: "To wash your hands properly, and reduce the risks of MRSA and C.difficile, you have to be able to wash the whole area around the wrist.

"I don't think it would be right to make an exemption for people on any grounds. The policy of bare below the elbows has to be applied universally."

Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: "These students are being trained using taxpayers' money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk.

"Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines that everyone else has to follow."

But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.

"No practising Muslim woman - doctor, medical student, nurse or patient - should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow," it said.

Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."
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Old 02-04-08, 09:11 PM   #2
Trevor
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Option #3, only Twikoff's Muslim female doctors.
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Old 02-04-08, 09:12 PM   #3
mh4268
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Quote:
Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "... One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."
Or another idea, wash your hands!
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Old 02-04-08, 09:27 PM   #4
Brent L
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At the risk of sending this thread into the unknown, I'll go ahead and say it...

There's only so far the world should be willing to bend over backwards, and we've long passed that point.
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Old 02-04-08, 09:28 PM   #5
nodeerforamonth
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Who the hell voted "no"?!??! I wonder if they had to have an operation if they would let a female muslim doctor do it....
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Old 02-04-08, 09:38 PM   #6
Numanoid
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Another misleading grundle thread. This story has nothing to do with washing their hands. It's about washing their forearms.
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Old 02-04-08, 09:47 PM   #7
sjrab16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numanoid
Another misleading grundle thread. This story has nothing to do with washing their hands. It's about washing their forearms.
And your point is? I do not see why this should be a problem. Doctors wear gloves now and still wash their hands. So regardless of how tall their gloves are they will still need to wash the covered area. It is stupid that people because of their faith can choose to not be properly sterilized because they might be uncovered...then maybe they should not be surgeons.

I do wonder how this story would be played out if it was some wacked out Christian denomination who had these rules about women being covered from head to toe.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:02 PM   #8
Shamus McAnally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent L
At the risk of sending this thread into the unknown, I'll go ahead and say it...

There's only so far the world should be willing to bend over backwards, and we've long passed that point.
Agreed.

If it's THAT much against their religion, maybe they should pick a profession/area of study where hygiene isn't as important.

So, people should be endangered because of their right to religion. Or some school or hospital should spend MORE money to protect the sterility of the surgical area because THEY choose to go into an area/job where they won't scrub according to the rules, because of religious reasons?
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Old 02-04-08, 10:02 PM   #9
shaun3000
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Well if you don't obey hygiene rules, you don't get your MD. Easy enough solution, if you ask me.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:15 PM   #10
Ranger
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I can't wait when doctors are replaced with medic droids then everyone would be happy.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:25 PM   #11
SlartyBart
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Perhaps not. I understand it's also frowned on by the church of robotology.

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Old 02-04-08, 10:34 PM   #12
Numanoid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamus McAnally
So, people should be endangered because of their right to religion.
Surely no one in this country has ever tried to deny certain medical procedures to people solely on religious grounds.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:41 PM   #13
dork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjrab16
I do wonder how this story would be played out if it was some wacked out Christian denomination who had these rules about women being covered from head to toe.
Excellent point. It would be completely different -- a different poster would have started the thread, the original article would have been printed in a left-wing paper instead of a right-wing one, different people would be saying, "What part of freedom of religion don't you understand?", and then I would probably post something to the effect of, "Gee, I wonder if some of you would have been this open-minded if it was a MUSLIM doctor! Hmm? Hmm?"

I refer you to any of the threads about pharmacists refusing to dispense birth control.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:42 PM   #14
dork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numanoid
Another misleading grundle thread. This story has nothing to do with washing their hands. It's about washing their forearms.
And it's not about actual doctors.
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Old 02-04-08, 10:55 PM   #15
Ranger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dork
Excellent point. It would be completely different -- a different poster would have started the thread, the original article would have been printed in a left-wing paper instead of a right-wing one, different people would be saying, "What part of freedom of religion don't you understand?", and then I would probably post something to the effect of, "Gee, I wonder if some of you would have been this open-minded if it was a MUSLIM doctor! Hmm? Hmm?"

I refer you to any of the threads about pharmacists refusing to dispense birth control.


We really are a predictable bunch.
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Old 02-04-08, 11:07 PM   #16
milo bloom
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I scrub my arms nearly to the elbows after scooping the cat litter, they can wash up to their damn elbows.

Really people, freedom of religion means you let them do their own thing on their own time, but not to the point of not being properly scrubbed when you're taking out an appendix, or even a heart transplant for crying out loud.
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Old 02-04-08, 11:43 PM   #17
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Rather than focusing on what has gone on in the past, it is hard to believe that anyone in 2008 wouldn't think it is smart to require doctors to scrup up to their elbows or not be doctors.

But then, I think some just like to argue for no real reason.

If it is deemed to be a medical necessity to wash your forearms and you think these women should be exempt, would you also say the same if their religion said they shouldn't wash their hands?

The point is what has been decreed for safety concerns. If you can't go along with them, you will certainly not be the first not to pursue a career based on religious beliefs. That kept me from a fantastic career in porn. Straign porn, even.
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Old 02-05-08, 12:19 AM   #18
SlartyBart
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I find the whole subject sickening! Women doctors? They should be at home in the kitchen or having babies!

Everyone in here seems concerned about their religion while overlooking this simple fact. Buncha pinko Communist lefties!
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Old 02-05-08, 04:20 AM   #19
atari2600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun3000
Well if you don't obey hygiene rules, you don't get your MD. Easy enough solution, if you ask me.
exactly. kick them out of the school. you are risking other peoples health for your religion. thats bs.
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Old 02-05-08, 09:05 AM   #20
dieinafire
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How the fuck can these people think that they have the right to not follow proper procedures? I say kick them all out of fucking school, and get them the hell out of any medical facility. How is this even big news, the first time some Muslim chick refuses to wash her hands, they should have just said "OK, then get the fuck out of here", and removed them. Peoples lives are at stake here.
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Old 02-05-08, 09:22 AM   #21
Venusian
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i would think gloves would be safer anyway...

so the women can wash their hands and forearms in private so it isn't immodest and then wear long gloves. seems like the solution
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Old 02-05-08, 09:45 AM   #22
Mopower
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Allah hates clean people. Just look at the Middle East.
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Old 02-05-08, 09:54 AM   #23
grundle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth
Who the hell voted "no"?!??!

People who understand my comical reasons for doing this poll.
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Old 02-05-08, 09:54 AM   #24
grundle
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Originally Posted by Numanoid
Another misleading grundle thread. This story has nothing to do with washing their hands. It's about washing their forearms.
Heh heh heh.
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Old 02-05-08, 09:56 AM   #25
dieinafire
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Originally Posted by Mopower
Allah hates clean people. Just look at the Middle East.
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