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Old 12-10-07, 06:56 AM   #1
Venusian
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Colorado Church Shooting

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/...Omn.uaPx.s0NUE

Authorities searched a home in suburban Englewood early Monday, seeking any link between two deadly shooting sprees at Christian religious centers that left both communities baffled and stunned.

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Five people, including a gunman, died in the attacks Sunday at a megachurch in Colorado Springs and at the Youth With a Mission missionary center in the Denver suburb of Arvada. Five others were wounded.

"Violent crimes of any sort are tragic enough, but when innocent people are killed in a religious facility or a place of worship, we must voice a collective sense of outrage and demonstrate a renewed commitment to keeping our communities safe," said Gov. Bill Ritter.

Police in Arvada said they believed the shootings which occurred 12 hours and about 65 miles apart were probably linked, though they had nothing conclusive to back up the theory.

"Given the circumstances, I think it is a good possibility that the two are linked," Arvada Deputy Police Chief Gary Creagor told The Associated Press early Monday. "But we have to prove that they are."

At a news conference Sunday, Police Chief Don Wick said that there was "reason to believe" the shootings were connected, though he declined to elaborate.

Early Monday, authorities were searching a home in suburban Englewood, about 15 miles south of Denver, that they said could be related to the Colorado Springs shooting case. Authorities could be seen coming and going from the home, and at one point searching the bushes in front.

The violence began about 12:30 a.m. Sunday, when a man opened fire at the Youth With a Mission office after he had been denied a request to spend the night there. Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap, who had a handgun.

The center had been having a Christmas party when the gunman attacked.

More than 12 hours later, at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, a gunman with a high-powered rifle entered the church's main foyer and opened fire, Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers said.

One church member was killed, and another who was badly wounded died later Sunday at Penrose Community Hospital in Colorado Springs, said hospital spokeswoman Amy Sufak. Their identities were not released.

The gunman was killed by a member of the church's armed security staff before police arrived, Myers said. Officers also found several smoke-generating devices on the church campus; their intended purpose wasn't clear.






Crazy. I have a couple of friends that go to that church (or atleast used to last time I talked to them). Armed security at a church? I guess it was needed, but crazy. Anyone know if Youth With a Mission is related to New Life?
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Old 12-10-07, 07:13 AM   #2
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I heard on the news that there is some relationship between the two, but I don't know the details.

This is terrible. I don't understand what someone can be thinking when they do something like this.
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Old 12-10-07, 07:34 AM   #3
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Edit: From a local story:

Dale Lambert, the assistant director to YWAM says there is no direct link between the YWAM program in Arvada to New Life Church. However, the YWAM in Colorado Springs does work with New Life Church.
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Old 12-10-07, 08:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Armed security at a church?
That struck me as odd as well... Like you said I guess it was needed but personally I would question going to a church that felt like it needed it/budgeted for it.
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Old 12-10-07, 08:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemein
That struck me as odd as well... Like you said I guess it was needed but personally I would question going to a church that felt like it needed it/budgeted for it.
I have never heard of that before. That is just fucking crazy.
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Old 12-10-07, 08:35 AM   #6
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Armed guards at churches....now I've heard everything!!!

I mean, between that and 2 girls 1 cup, where do we go?!

-p
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Old 12-10-07, 08:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
Armed security at a church?
I heard on the radio that they beefed up security after the earlier shooting. Whether they normally had armed guards, I don't know.
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Old 12-10-07, 08:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemein
That struck me as odd as well... Like you said I guess it was needed but personally I would question going to a church that felt like it needed it/budgeted for it.
Why? Not that it did any good in this case...but why not? I've heard of Synagogues with armed security. Frankly in this day and age it makes sense.
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Last edited by Giantrobo; 12-10-07 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 12-10-07, 08:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantrobo
Why? Not that it did any good in this case...but why not? I've heard of Synagogues with armed security. Frankly in this day and age it makes sense.

Don't get me wrong I have no problems w/ guns or people providing for their security. (What might be considered odd to some people, if it was a member who had a weapon in their vehicle and shot the person it probably wouldn't have even raised an eyebrow for me.) However, I would question it in the sense of what is the church getting involved w/ where it feels there is enough of a threat to justify it. Sure there is random violence out there but it is just that, random, and it's usually not targeted specifically enough where I would feel it would be justified (given how most the churches I usually attend have enough problems making ends meet as it is). Given the new info that there were previous threats/problems at the church mitigates it a bit for me, but it still just seems odd and a shame the world has come to this.
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Old 12-10-07, 09:08 AM   #10
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Looks like it did do good since the guard shot the shooter.


Now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder if my church has armed security. I've never noticed it but it wouldn't really surprise me. There was security there to open the door on a Monday when I went but it was more a rent a cop and I didn't notice a gun. We have tons of police around the church on Sundays but that is mostly for traffic reasons.
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Old 12-10-07, 09:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantrobo
Why? Not that it did any good in this case...but why not? I've heard of Synagogues with armed security. Frankly in this day and age it makes sense.
I would say it did a lot of good in this case. Who knows how many people the gunman would have taken out if the guard hadn't shot him?
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Old 12-10-07, 09:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho
I would say it did a lot of good in this case. Who knows how many people the gunman would have taken out if the guard hadn't shot him?
Point Taken. I guess I was only looking at the ones that died.
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Old 12-10-07, 11:20 AM   #13
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Theoretically, any place where large numbers of people gather needs armed security.

Whackos tend to go to places where they can shoot as many people as possible before they all get under cover.


Besides, a megachurch isn't a real church anyway.
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Old 12-10-07, 11:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Armed security at a church?
Why not?

We are a country in love with guns, some people that have them obviously shouldn't. Since we as a society are unwilling to take the guns away the only answer is to arm more people.

Seems rather clear to me.
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Old 12-10-07, 12:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemein
Don't get me wrong I have no problems w/ guns or people providing for their security. (What might be considered odd to some people, if it was a member who had a weapon in their vehicle and shot the person it probably wouldn't have even raised an eyebrow for me.) However, I would question it in the sense of what is the church getting involved w/ where it feels there is enough of a threat to justify it. Sure there is random violence out there but it is just that, random, and it's usually not targeted specifically enough where I would feel it would be justified (given how most the churches I usually attend have enough problems making ends meet as it is). Given the new info that there were previous threats/problems at the church mitigates it a bit for me, but it still just seems odd and a shame the world has come to this.
I think that's probably the reason. At my parents church which was only 250-300 people about 10 years ago they hired an armed security guard for a few months. A homeless(?) man had started visiting the church and several of the pastors had attempted to help him out. Apparently he wasn't right in the head because after a few months he showed up became verbally abusive and somewhat physical with one or two of the pastors wives. He had to be escorted from the premises and they hired some security to make sure he didn't come back. I'm sure things like that aren't all that uncommon.
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Old 12-10-07, 12:19 PM   #16
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There's money to be had in a church on Sunday, and megachurch=megabucks. I'm sure it's the fear of damnation that keeps many would-be criminals from pursuing that avenue of enrichment. But there are plenty of nonbelieving criminals out there too. I can see the logic of having security.
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Old 12-10-07, 01:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
Armed security at a church?
Yeah, why are they trying to stop their members' heavenward progress?
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Old 12-10-07, 01:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger
Besides, a megachurch isn't a real church anyway.
let's open this can of worms again...

why?
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Old 12-10-07, 01:21 PM   #19
Venusian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoVegan
Yeah, why are they trying to stop their members' heavenward progress?


Maybe they are concerned about the visitors?
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Old 12-10-07, 02:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
let's open this can of worms again...

why?

The pastor or a megachurch cannot possibly know and spiritually nurture every single one of his parishoners. I'm not saying it isn't a form of worship, just that it no longer serves the function of a proper church, as a center of social stability.

It's like the difference between a potluck dinner and a cafeteria.
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Old 12-10-07, 02:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger
The pastor or a megachurch cannot possibly know and spiritually nurture every single one of his parishoners. I'm not saying it isn't a form of worship, just that it no longer serves the function of a proper church, as a center of social stability.
How does this translate to the first church in jerusalem where they had thousands of people join within the first few months (pentecost)? Was that not a real church?
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Old 12-11-07, 01:51 PM   #22
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Breaking news: Autopsy results show that the gunman killed himself.

So it's safe to assume that God was NOT acting through the security guard, as she maintained? Rather, He was acting through the gunman? And so He's responsible for a clusterfuck murder/suicide rampage at one (two?) of His churches?

Sorry, just trying to get this straight.
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Old 12-11-07, 02:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger
The pastor or a megachurch cannot possibly know and spiritually nurture every single one of his parishoners. I'm not saying it isn't a form of worship, just that it no longer serves the function of a proper church, as a center of social stability.
There may be 1 head pastor, but there are many pastors at mega-churches.
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Old 12-11-07, 02:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
Didn't take long for the snarkiness to show up.
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Old 12-11-07, 02:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkDaddy J
Breaking news: Autopsy results show that the gunman killed himself.

So it's safe to assume that God was NOT acting through the security guard, as she maintained? Rather, He was acting through the gunman? And so He's responsible for a clusterfuck murder/suicide rampage at one (two?) of His churches?

Sorry, just trying to get this straight.
The news report I read said she wounded him with multiple shots, but he finished himself off with a shotgun. I suspect that had he not been wounded, he would have continued until ammo ran out.

"Love thy neighbor, shoot thine enemy."
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