Disciples Granted Power To Persuade In Jesus' Time, Why Not Today?

shifrbv · 01-06-06, 11:53 AM

Jesus was known as a miracle worker. His acts helped spread his message probably more than any of his sermons ever did. When someone is raised from the dead or cured from blindness or a life-threatening disease, average people take notice and everyone remembers the story.

In turn, when Jesus commissioned his disciples, he also saw the need to give them these same powers and instructed them to go out and perform similar feats.

Obviously, God understood the value of this type of PR. Why else provide it if it wasn't a very powerful tool.

However, today, we don't see this. No one out there seems to have the power to do anything remotely like what we see in the Bible. We see tons of fakes instead.

How could it have been so important back then that it was a command to the disciples, but not for anyone today. God provides no proof today, but back then he felt he needed advertisement. Why? It seems it would help the cause so much if he just kept with the original formula.

He didn't expect people back then to just "have faith". He wanted to show them results. Why then today is it different?

Minor Threat · 01-06-06, 11:55 AM

It's called the internet.....

fujishig · 01-06-06, 12:05 PM

It was always my understanding that only the original apostles could do these miraculous works, and that it was never passed down beyond them. I don't even think Paul did such things, and he's certainly a focus in the NT when it came to converting Gentiles.

It's also important to note that despite his miracles, Jesus himself had very few followers, most if not all of which abandoned him when he died and went back to their old lives until he appeared to them again. So the miracles were not necessarily a great tool for spreading his message effectively.

Then there's Luke 16:19-31 (NIV shown below), the story of Lazarus:

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

which displays that "Moses and the Prophets" or the Bible itself, should be sufficient "proof" to give someone faith, and if that's not enough, even someone rising from the dead will not convince them.

Groucho · 01-06-06, 12:06 PM

The original disciples weren't as persuasive as you think. It took several hundred years for Christianity to catch on, and they were frequently run out of town or worse.

Numanoid · 01-06-06, 12:12 PM

Not to mention that at that point almost no one knew about Christianity. Today it's the biggest religion in the world with 2 billion followers. See a difference?

VinVega · 01-06-06, 12:15 PM

What about all the times people see Jesus in a grease pan. Isn't that convincing for you?

http://www.nbc30.com/news/5625986/de...=har&psp=news#

kvrdave · 01-06-06, 12:15 PM

Jesus never performed miracles just for the sake of it. When people told him to and they would believe, he refused. I don't think we appreciate the reason behind the miracles.

Thor Simpson · 01-06-06, 12:19 PM

Watch more Oprah.

kvrdave · 01-06-06, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinVega

What about all the times people see Jesus in a grease pan. Isn't that convincing for you?

http://www.nbc30.com/news/5625986/de...=har&psp=news#

Groucho · 01-06-06, 12:22 PM

Carbonite...that's it! kvrdave has inadvertantly given atheists a scientific explanation for the resurrection. Mary Magdelene just disguised herself as a bounty hounter, and freed him three days later.

Thor Simpson · 01-06-06, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groucho

Carbonite...that's it! kvrdave has inadvertantly given atheists a scientific explanation for the resurrection. Mary Magdelene just disguised herself as a bounty hounter, and freed him three days later.

If she had adamantium, would Easter be on a Saturday?

Tracer Bullet · 01-06-06, 12:26 PM

Or, it could be that Jesus never performed any miracles at all.

Thor Simpson · 01-06-06, 12:28 PM

Sorry to make light of a serious topic. The truth is, miracles and "divine intervention" do still happen, but not always for the purpose of "making a believer" out of someone.

Mopower · 01-06-06, 01:01 PM

It's called....a story in a book.

Venusian · 01-06-06, 01:01 PM

maybe its not needed today. look at the size of Christianity.

where does Jesus ever say or imply that people need more than faith?

01-06-06, 11:53 AM	#1
shifrbv Banned Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 966	Disciples Granted Power To Persuade In Jesus' Time, Why Not Today? Jesus was known as a miracle worker. His acts helped spread his message probably more than any of his sermons ever did. When someone is raised from the dead or cured from blindness or a life-threatening disease, average people take notice and everyone remembers the story. In turn, when Jesus commissioned his disciples, he also saw the need to give them these same powers and instructed them to go out and perform similar feats. Obviously, God understood the value of this type of PR. Why else provide it if it wasn't a very powerful tool. However, today, we don't see this. No one out there seems to have the power to do anything remotely like what we see in the Bible. We see tons of fakes instead. How could it have been so important back then that it was a command to the disciples, but not for anyone today. God provides no proof today, but back then he felt he needed advertisement. Why? It seems it would help the cause so much if he just kept with the original formula. He didn't expect people back then to just "have faith". He wanted to show them results. Why then today is it different? Last edited by shifrbv; 01-06-06 at 11:57 AM.

01-06-06, 11:55 AM	#2
Minor Threat DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: - Flex your head - Posts: 13,580	It's called the internet..... __________________ "I think they go by username, so you're probably not a very high priority at the moment." - dork "Kansas chokes every year. I don't see why this year will be any different. Go Davidson." - Michael Corvin - Kansas University 2008 National Champions!!!!!

01-06-06, 12:06 PM	#4
Groucho DVD Talk Godfather Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 62,131	The original disciples weren't as persuasive as you think. It took several hundred years for Christianity to catch on, and they were frequently run out of town or worse. __________________ Xbox Live: Runner Groucho PSN: RunnerGroucho "The Borg is a species" -- Tracer Bullet (Citation)

01-06-06, 12:12 PM	#5
Numanoid DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Down in 'The Park' Posts: 27,011	Not to mention that at that point almost no one knew about Christianity. Today it's the biggest religion in the world with 2 billion followers. See a difference? __________________ Regarding Numanoid: "...don't pay attention to that guy, he has 26455 posts and about seven of them have been useful." - Szczesny

01-06-06, 12:15 PM	#6
VinVega Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Stuck in the middle with you Posts: 24,060	What about all the times people see Jesus in a grease pan. Isn't that convincing for you? http://www.nbc30.com/news/5625986/de...=har&psp=news# __________________ History is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines reality, vitalizes memory, provides guidance in daily life and brings us tidings of antiquity. - Cicero

01-06-06, 12:05 PM	#3
fujishig DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Aug 1999 Posts: 13,716	It was always my understanding that only the original apostles could do these miraculous works, and that it was never passed down beyond them. I don't even think Paul did such things, and he's certainly a focus in the NT when it came to converting Gentiles. It's also important to note that despite his miracles, Jesus himself had very few followers, most if not all of which abandoned him when he died and went back to their old lives until he appeared to them again. So the miracles were not necessarily a great tool for spreading his message effectively. Then there's Luke 16:19-31 (NIV shown below), the story of Lazarus: 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " which displays that "Moses and the Prophets" or the Bible itself, should be sufficient "proof" to give someone faith, and if that's not enough, even someone rising from the dead will not convince them.

01-06-06, 12:15 PM	#7
kvrdave DVD Talk God Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 79,160	Jesus never performed miracles just for the sake of it. When people told him to and they would believe, he refused. I don't think we appreciate the reason behind the miracles. __________________ Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis

01-06-06, 12:19 PM	#8
Thor Simpson DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 35,020	Watch more Oprah. __________________ I'm not a fan of people quoting others and saying "This," but... This. - VinVega

01-06-06, 12:22 PM	#10
Groucho DVD Talk Godfather Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 62,131	Carbonite...that's it! kvrdave has inadvertantly given atheists a scientific explanation for the resurrection. Mary Magdelene just disguised herself as a bounty hounter, and freed him three days later.

01-06-06, 12:26 PM	#12
Tracer Bullet DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: IND Crosstown Posts: 23,362	Or, it could be that Jesus never performed any miracles at all. __________________ Third World countries are worthy of our derision. -Sean O'Hara Personally, I would say that Tracer Bullet is leading you in the wrong direction. -Supermallet Sometimes you have to decide between the guy who won't give you a cupcake and the one who will stab you in the face. -DeputyDave

01-06-06, 12:28 PM	#13
Thor Simpson DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 35,020	Sorry to make light of a serious topic. The truth is, miracles and "divine intervention" do still happen, but not always for the purpose of "making a believer" out of someone. __________________ I'm not a fan of people quoting others and saying "This," but... This. - VinVega

01-06-06, 01:01 PM	#14
Mopower DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Janitor's closet in Kinnick Stadium Posts: 15,717	It's called....a story in a book.

01-06-06, 01:01 PM	#15
Venusian Moderator Join Date: Nov 1999 Posts: 36,943	maybe its not needed today. look at the size of Christianity. where does Jesus ever say or imply that people need more than faith?