DaveyJoe

People decide they don't like something and come up with reasons for why it's stupid later. I see it all the time with fandoms.

fujishig

? These are the thoughts I had while I was watching the film. It's not like I went into it thinking "I hope they get this wrong," I love DC heroes.

I will similarly never get over how dumb Pa Kent's death was in MoS. It's not like these are like minor gaffes in the movies, these are central themes, it's really hard (for me) to overlook. Like what shaped the main character and why these people want to kill each other and then why they make up.

Supermallet

Yes, some people do that, but that shouldn't be used as a blanket excuse for all the issues in any franchise film. The third act of BvS is a big honking mess, and that's saying something given how stupid the first two acts are.

nando820

Some people decide to love something no matter how flawed it is and come up with excuses later...

a statement like that can be made for both sides

DaveyJoe

I didn't particularly like BvS, I thought the first half was pretty dull, but it's interesting to me how fans decide to latch onto stuff like Martha, while brushing aside flaws in other comic films because they are fun while BvS was dour. I think a lot of people on the net decided to hate BvS long before they saw it, and the same seems true of Justice League.

Kal-El

I don't think going from "I'm about to fucking kill you" to "No, I got your mom dude." is similar to what you just posted. And yes, men bond over stupid things DAILY. But again, I don't think you can equate that statement to justifying the whiplash turnaround of Batman in that scene.

Paul_SD

I decided to hate Singer's Days Of Future Past before I ever saw it.
Have you seen how lame Quicksilver looks?

Then I saw and, surprise, actually found myself enjoying it. I came away liking it quite a bit, and posted here at the time how my opinion had been turned 180 degrees when I experienced the actual product.
However, if I wanted to, I could nit pick it all day.

Contrary to that, BvS did nothing to alter my expectations of it going in.
It just steeled my resolve that this is not an approach to this material that I appreciate.

Michael Corvin

Supes is getting his ass handed to him and in his biggest moment of weakness he more concerned about his Earth mother than his own life. I'd say that reveals quite a bit about his character to Bruce/Bats.

nando820

I think the reason for that is that the movie tried to be very serious, with characters bigger than life. The trailers advertised the fight as the epitome of a comic book fight on film. Yet at the peak of their battle, Martha cames out and it was a big LOL moment, because of the setup and hype of it.

And you are right that audiences can also be very forgiving and have done so with many movie setups before, but that's also because those movies also had likable characters that people were invested in. Here not so much

Its all about keeping the illusion, great artists can captivate millions, mediocre ones just enchant a few.

Draven

I actually don't have a huge problem with the "Martha" thing either. My main issue is how clunky it comes out. I feel like that could have been written better.

But considering that Batman's entire existence stems from his inability to save his parents, it's not that big of a stretch to me that he wouldn't want to see another mother die if he could help it. And having the same name just drives it home that much further.

It's not the most elegant thing in the world but I had bigger problems with things like Clark not knowing who was who at the party and Lex's characterization in general than the "Martha" bit.

fumanstan

People judging movies before they see them is nothing new. An actually good movie will overcome the nitpicks and skepticism though. Like Wonder Woman.

Mike86

Even though I get why Batman felt empathy for Superman at that point it's still a really silly scene. I mean he goes from being ready to straight up murder the guy (which is something not in character for Batman to begin with but that's a whole other debate) to being his bestie and like don't worry I'll save your mom bro.

If anything I think it would have made more sense to have had Batman let Superman go and save her. Then when they met up later for the fight with Doomsday there could have been some tension there a bit still but there would be a classic case of I have to work with this guy I don't like to take out this dangerous creature. There are just a lot of better scenarios that could have led to them uniting rather than what they went with in my opinion.

Giantrobo

Look...I can totally understand that MANY, both comics fans and Joe Public, didn't like BvS. I really can. Yes, it was flawed....like many Comic Films. And I swear, I'm not just making shit up just to Blindly Fanboy a DC film. I guess I just don't get why so many obvious and simply laid out things in the film were misunderstood or missed by so many. I've said before.. My theory is many went in prepared to hate BvS so things were lost on them.

Giantrobo

Yes. And that's all I've been more or less saying.

When people like a film they totally ignore or give a pass to stupid things in them. When they hate it, they pick on everything and turn things into unforgivable sins.

fujishig

But you didn't need that Martha bit at all. If Lex had just gone straight to creating Doomsday because he no longer had the kryptonite, and Supes and Bats are beating the crap out of each other but then have to unite to fight a bigger threat and that's what gives them a grudging respect for each other, well that's still kinda dumb but that's as comic book like as you can get.

Instead you have this complicated plot where somehow Lex planted all these things to get Superman and Batman to fight: I mean this elaborate plan where he found out both of their identities, manipulated a terrorist situation where Lois Lane was involved, bought off a witness, had criminals that Batman had caught killed in jail, leaked that info to Clark Kent, had Superman testify in court, blew that courtroom up and intercepting payments Bruce Wayne was making to a crippled employee that he doesn't find out about until the exact right moment, then kidnapped Superman's mom and told him to fight Batman at the exact moment that Batman, who had stolen kryptonite from Lex, was ready to kill him, plus deduced correctly that these two meatheads wouldn't bother talking to each other before fighting. And then got access to Kryptonian tech so we'd have a climax. Oh and he was investigating other metahumans conveniently filed into folders with the proper logos on them. Luckily Gotham and Metropolis are right across the bay from each other and the two had never met or confronted each other prior to this.

That's almost as dumb as the US government sanctioning a bunch of mostly non superpowered criminals to take Superman on if he ever went rogue (ha), except their most powerful member goes rogue instead and they have to stop her, stopping for a touching bar scene along the way.

But you know what? I will still see Justice League hoping against hope that it will be good. Or at least decent. So they haven't burned the bridge with me yet like Transformers has.

nando820

BS I lowered my expectations for this film before going in and even though I cringed, laughed, felt sleep and was completely lost at certain parts. I did not hate it just realized how flawed it was.

I'm not a DC hater. I still support their efforts and bought the blu-ray and even watched it two more times (in sections). But when a lamp has a broken bulb, there is nothing you can't say to unbreak the bulb. Sure the lamp still has 1 more bulb and for some that will still be enough light...

Giantrobo

I'll give you this.. You seem as obsessed with shitting on this film as some of use seem to be obsessed with defending it. Cheers! RESPEK YO!

Giantrobo

Ok fair enough. But again, still hearing people say they "didn't understand this", "why didn't they do that?", "Why does he hate him" when it was all laid out in the film is hilarious to me.

Mike86

I don't think it's not understanding the story but more asking ourselves what the fuck were they thinking when making a lot of the decisions.

DaveyJoe

I wouldn't necessarily qualify it as "an actually good movie" but rather, "a movie you like." The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises were both good movies, but for some reason people nitpicked the shit out of the latter when it had the same plot holes and heavy-handed exposition as its predecessor.

After MoS and BvS we know exactly what to expect from Justice League. Anybody who hated the first two and pays to see the third is just hate-watching as far as I'm concerned. Which doesn't make much sense to me. If you hate Zack Snyder, and you hate dark and gritty superhero films, why are you still watching these movies? Every dollar you spend on them is a vote for more movies like them.

I was a Transformers fan as a kid, I didn't like the first movie, so I stopped watching them. But plenty of people continue to enjoy and support that franchise, more power to them. I loved the Resident Evil games and hated the first movie, so I didn't watch any others, but plenty of people continue to enjoy and support that franchise, more power to them.

People are ranting about how stupid certain elements of MoS and BvS were, and they're not necessarily wrong, but if they turn around and buy a ticket for Justice League I don't understand the logic. Except maybe some smug satisfaction that WB 'doesn't get' the characters like true fans do, and a sense of catharsis from bitching on the internet about how your favorite character is being bastardized. It's not like there's a dearth of bright, fun, and faithful comic book movies around these days. What's funny is that the tone of discussion about the DCU is as dark and edgy as the films themselves.

fujishig

I'm not being sarcastic here at all, but I thought Justice League wasn't going to be like MoS and BvS, that they were changing some of the tone and style? That's the only reason I had high hopes, if it really is just more of the same then I probably won't see it in theaters. I mean I didn't see BvS in theaters, which is why I've only seen the extended cut.

Mike86

Speaking for myself I see these films as a fan of the characters. Being a fanboy is a weird thing at times but I still want to see these movies even though I haven't cared for most of the current DC films aside from Wonder Woman. I still hope they'll make more films I'll enjoy. I want this to be good and feel like it's a major turning point for the DCEU so if they fuck it up again I'm not sure what to think. I think WB knows this as well even though they had a victory recently this is really going to be a make or break film for this franchise. Hopefully it turns out alright.

Giantrobo

Ok, for some it isn't. But I've certainly seen posts here and on other sites where it was clear they missed things and were confused.

Supermallet

It seems like you're arguing that all films are equally good (or equally bad) and the only difference between them is the audience reaction. I don't think that's true. BvS has a ton of problems in the concept, writing, and execution. WW had significantly fewer flaws and didn't bungle the execution. So of course people are going to give a pass on the fewer flaws that WW had, because the overall movie was better. When a movie is bad from top to bottom, like BvS, all you can do is tear it apart.

Giantrobo

I'm in no way saying that "all films are equal". But you do bring up an interesting point about reactions. I mean, isn't the audience reaction the barometer? I get that the majority didn't like BvS. So I accept that DC will have to change a direction that I enjoyed to please the masses who didn't like BvS, MoS, and SS. It seems WW was the first step in that direction.

I agree that it had issues. What films doesn't? I guess people disagree on how many, how egregious, and whether or not they can be given a pass. Those who don't like this movie seem to not be able to give any flaws no matter how small a pass. Some have turned minor flaws and easily understood motivations, plot points, and issues into a mass failing of this film.

So we agree. that's again my point. If one likes a film one can ignore flaws no matter how big. If they don't, they won't ignore flaws and may even create new ones where there is none to support their dislike.

Again, many went in hating this film before their ass hit the seat. It's like they viewed the film just to find flaws to support their already created dislike. The same is happening with Justice League.