Solid Snake

Well there were the moments where he was w/ his wife and the olivia. The way he was w/ his wife especially...she could tell he was different. Also the way a Borden was in his obsession.

Timber

No, I mean I know they were different, I'm just saying that we can't put names on them because who was who was never established. I know naming them makes it easier for discussing the movie but I think even in the movie one said that they were both Borden and both Fallon.

Jay G.

You are correct that both played Fallon and Borden, and switched roles. However, the twin that survives at the end, the one that was last playing Fallon, is the one that loved Sarah and had a daughter Jess. I think RocShemp was using the last roles they played as a reference for the names.

Josh-da-man

Here's an interesting table someone made that shows which twin is Borden and which is Fallon at different points in the film:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7752527/pres...hoisborden.htm

RocShemp

They were both Borden and both Fallon. They took turns. And as Snake said, their general demeanor (and Sarah's comments) clue you in to which is which at any given moment. But the final Fallon (the one who shoots Angier) is the one who loved Sarah. he loved her more than magic. TheBorden who got hung is the one who loved magic the most. That's why he says they should have told Fallon when Sarah announced she was pregnant. That Fallon was the one who loved her and was Jess' father.

Exactly.

Noonan

I always took the machine to mean that the one who stepped in always drowned and the new copy was the one who survived to live on. So each night, he went in knowing that he was about to die for the sake of the trick.

whoopdido

But if he died he wouldn't get to experience the appreciation from the audience. That's what was most important to him.

I know others have said that if an exact copy is made then the two are totally identical right down to the last atom, so they're essentially one and the same, but that doesn't compute with me. There's still 2 of them and one lives, while the other dies. Angier never struck me as the type that would be willing to die. He wanted to actually see and hear the audience ooh and aah over him. If he was dead he couldn't experience it. His copy would experience it, but the copy isn't him...he's dead.

Unless the copy lives on THINKING that he's the original and that the copy died, while he, the original, lived. That makes me think a little more. If an exact copy is made and the two of them truly are exactly the same then both would think that they're each the original. When the original steps into the machine, he thinks that he'll survive and the copy will drown, but in actuality the orginal drowns and the copy survives, but the copy thinks he's the original and therefore survived.

If that's how it works then each night Angier would really die, but he wouldn't know that he was going to die because he thought he'd survive while the copy died. And since the copy is exactly the same as the original, then the copy gets to experience the audience reaction just as the original would have.

My mind is blown now.

Josh-da-man

Yeah, it is a mindfuck.

Imagine if the Star Trek transporters work the same way. When Captain Kirk steps onto the transporter, is he disintegrated and killed and then replaced by an exact replica at the destination?

The thing is, you would never know... The person who steps onto the transporter and was killed would neither know or be able to reveal what happened, and the duplicate who transported down to the planet would go on thinking that everything was fine, ignorant of his death. Not quite as bad as drowning, but every time someone uses the transporter, the person who steps onto it would cease to exist.

Or, since the original and the copy are indistinguishable, would it even make any difference?

whoopdido

Honestly, I believe, in the Star Trek universe, that's exactly how it works. The transporter more or less destroys you and then reassembles you at your destination. Obviously you can't be destroyed and then put back together...that would kill you. So, yeah a transporter basically makes an exact double with all of your thoughts and memories and sticks you at the destination. I think Tesla's machine sort of does the same thing...only it doesn't kill the original.

Jay G.

There's a Star Trek novel I read, Federation, that addresses this specifically.
http://www.amazon.com/Federation-Sta.../dp/0671894234

One of the characters makes the same claim when learning of transporter technology (the original is destroyed, while a copy is made). The counter is that the transporter isn't making a copy, but actually transporting the original molecules and atoms from one place to another (I think the process involves converting the matter to energy, transporting the energy pattern, and reconverting it to matter). In one TNG episode, a crew member is shown being conscious throughout the actual transporting process, even experiencing the "between" phase of the process.

Still, the transporter has been known to have quirks and has created doubles at least twice, with one of them (Riker) being an exact double.

gmanca

Sorry but that's not true; Fallon did not love his family more than magic because he did not want to give up the ruse of having Borden live his life for him in order to keep his career, allowing his wife to fall into depression and kill herself. That's after he allowed it to continue when Borden killed Caldwell's wife through negligence.

Jay G.

Good chart. Interesting point: the names "Frederick" and "Albert" used in the chart for the Borden twins are apparently taken from the book; the name "Alfred" is an amalgam of their two first names.

Frederick was the one that hanged, and Albert was the one that survived.

RocShemp

That's a great chart. The only thing I disagree with is that it says Albert was the one who figured out the goldfish bowl trick. The reasoning is sound but, unless he switched with Frederick when Angier exited the theater, I think it was Frederick the whole time during that sequence. The speech he gives Angier sounds like something Frederick would believe rather than Albert.

Jay G.

I think the Backstage scene and the goldfish bowl trick scene may have taken place on different nights. I'm guessing they went to the other magic show on a night off. And Cutter had to set up their free admittance with the doorman.

RocShemp

I mean specifically while they were watching the goldfish bowl trick and when they were later watching Chung Ling Soo leave the theater. Borden's explanation of the trick and his admiration of the dedication it would take to achieve sounded like something that would appeal to Frederick rather than Albert.

Forgive me for this link but I couldn't find an actual clip of the scene I was looking for. The pertinent dialogue starts around 16:33. Notice the fascination and awe from Borden. He wants a life like that. That seems to me likee the kind of attitude Frederick would have rather than Albert.

Oh and Chung Ling Soo (a.k.a. William Epsworth Robinson) was a real magician who lived his act offstage as well as onstage. He died performing a bullet catch.

Jay G.

I would think that the dedication it took would appeal to both brothers, seeing as they're both similarly dedicated to their own trick. Also, I see Albert as being quieter than Frederick, which fits with this scene.

However, for this scene there's no clear indicator which brother it is, and it ultimately doesn't matter for the overall story. So your opinion is as good as mine.

Dr. DVD

That's what's so cool about it. The opening line says it all :"Are you watching closely?"

whoopdido

All this discussion led me to watch the movie again tonight.

Hot damn...it really is a GREAT movie. It's not complicated at all. It's actually very simple, but there is so much going on and it's infinitely better when you really pay attention and watch it a couple more times. I made a point of paying very close attention to every scene that Christian Bale was in and 95% of the time it was totally obvious which brother was on screen. That's something you kinda miss the first time. Like the lines about not knowing which knot he tied or not loving Sarah. Those lines were 100% true because they were said by different people, but the first time watching it you kinda just chalk it up to Borden being deceptive. It's just a very well made movie and extremely entertaining.

One thing I didn't get though. When everything goes bad during Angier's performance and he dies and Borden is accused of murdering him, why doesn't the "other" Angier appear up in the balcony? In the other performance that we see, he steps into the machine, disappears and then a few seconds later appears in the balcony and everybody is astonished.

I guess my question is how did he know the "other" Angier, the one that was supposed to appear in the balcony, know that everything got messed up and that Borden saw the "original" Angier in the water box? If he had just appeared in the balcony like he was planning to, things would have been even weirder since there would suddenly be two Angier's (one alive and one dead) and then he wouldn't have been able to "kill off" Angier and more or less become Lord Caldlow. I suppose he could have just told everybody that the Angier in the box was the double that he always used and that Borden only murdered the double and not the real Angier. I still wonder why he didn't appear in the balcony as planned though. How did he know there was a problem? Was it simply because he heard Borden screaming?

RocShemp

That's cool. Wasn't being argumentative, by the way. Was just claryfing which moment in the movie I was discussing.

And the reason I think it's Frederick is because of the part he says "it's the only way to escape all this". Freddie seems to bask in living an illusion more than Albert. I'm sure you're right that Albert would admire Chung Ling Soo's dedication as well but I feel Frederick would appreciate it more.

Still, asyou say, no way to know for sure. Which is good in myy eyes, as it leaves it open for interpretation.

I think that was it. There was always a pause before he reappeared. He wanted the audience to have "just enough reason to doubt". It's still impressive that at eappeared to cross so great a distance in a short period of time but he also gave the audience time to grasp that he disappeared. Unlike Borden who would do his trick instantly. That's why Cutter said Borden's trick was "too good".

In any case, that pause would have given time for him to hear Borden yell for help.

Jay G.

My assumption is that Angier was waiting for Borden to attempt to investigate/sabotage the trick, and so was looking very closely at the volunteers. He saw through Borden's disguise when he came up from the audience, and thus didn't appear to the audience after being transported, but went into hiding instead.

RocShemp

This too. He did specify only 100 shows ("does his method dictate that?") to specifically bait Borden into showing up.

whoopdido

I was reading on imdb and one theory is that Angier wanted to set up Borden right from the start. He knew that eventually Borden would show up and sneak backstage and would then be able to be framed for his murder. So I suppose he could have paid very close attention to the audience each night and as soon as he saw Borden he knew that his plan would go into motion that night so instead of appearing in the balcony he went into hiding so Borden could be framed for his murder.

I suppose that works. It would be the ultimate plan for revenge. He proves he's the better magician, he frames Borden and causes his death and he's able to disappear and take back his old life of being an aristocrat. He just didn't understand everything about Borden.

Josh-da-man

One thing that I love about this film is that the whole thing is set up like a magic trick. It drops all of these little clues in that become obvious by the time the movie is over, yet you don't quite pick up on the sleight of hand that's been going on until the credits roll, and then you understand how the trick is accomplished.

I can't believe this wasn't nominated for Best Picture, Best Adapted Screenplay, Best Director, and got a couple of acting nods. Bale and Jackman were really great in this, especially Bale where he's subtly playing two different characters the whole time. It blew the hell out of almost everything that was nominated that year.

brayzie

I bought it on DVD when it first came out, for $20 even though it didn't have any real special features. Totally worth it, although I'm surprised that the studio decided against making it a special edition. You would think there would be a Making Of segment and a mini doc on turn of the century magicians.

I agree, I like how the film itself is like a magic trick. I think The Illusionist came out around the same time. Was it as good or better?

Solid Snake

I think The Illusionist had more visual flair than The Prestige but the latter beats the shit out it. I haven't seen the former in a while, it wasn't bad but I think it lacked a bit in the story for me if I remember correctly.