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Old 01-17-10, 10:15 AM
  #101  
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Loved the 2001 homage on the display screen of the rover.

Hated the enormously oversized and detailed view of the Earth from the Moon (the Earth is quite small and quite blurry when seen from the surface of the Moon).

Last edited by Numanoid; 01-17-10 at 10:18 AM.
Old 01-17-10, 10:26 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

what a great movie and incredible performance by Rockwell. truly a unique vision Jones had and i think it worked splendidly. truly original and was transfixed throughout.

if you see some of the extras, specifically the Sundance Q&A you will see that 2001 was not a major inspiration and that in fact Blade Runner, Silent Running, and the original Alien were. Jones almost denounced that 2001 was a major, though i am not sure how that is possible with the look and feel and of course the talking robot.

also, interesting to note that Jones' next project he is working on/thinking about is a "spiritual sequel to Blade Runner".
Old 01-17-10, 10:27 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by Numanoid
Loved the 2001 homage on the display screen of the rover.

Hated the enormously oversized and detailed view of the Earth from the Moon (the Earth is quite small and quite blurry when seen from the surface of the Moon).
looks fairly accurate to me...

actual:


from film:
Old 01-17-10, 01:34 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by sp00kie
Fundamental issue, they never justify his existence. It seems the corporation are a bunch of idiots who spend millions of dollars to keep a pet on the moon building hobby models:P Everything is automated. Hell, his helper robot seems smarter than him at times, wouldn't seem hard to automate the rest. The sheer effort/expense of keeping up the sham is never justified. and the film drags for quite a while once the viewer gets ahead of the film.
I liked the film a lot, but I too had a little trouble reconciling that issue in my head. How was this fancy clone replacement plan less expensive than training multiple people at the same time to do the job?
Old 01-17-10, 02:30 PM
  #105  
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by RyoHazuki
I liked the film a lot, but I too had a little trouble reconciling that issue in my head. How was this fancy clone replacement plan less expensive than training multiple people at the same time to do the job?
Spoiler:
The primary reason for this is that the cost of space travel, at this point, basically trumps any other cost imaginable. Sure, it's the future, but it's likely that cloning will be perfected sooner than space travel, even now, in the real world. If you took the scenario in the movie and applied it to today, and said that the moon was filled with a renewable super-resource that would solve the world's energy problems, it basically wouldn't be cost effective to send people up there and get it vs. just ignoring it. This is why we generally don't send people into space.

There's also the fact that these guys probably get paid a lot. I mean, if you WERE hiring astronauts, they'd want a pretty penny to be completely isolated for 3 years; in some senses it's no better than jail. Then there's the fact that you would literally have to train every single one -- I can't imagine anyone wanting to make a second trip if hallucination and psychological problems are common among the astronauts. That training in and of itself has gotta be remarkably expansive: from the movie, it seems clear that Rockwell really knows a massive amount about the mechanics of the station, the rovers, the mining machines, etc. etc., so training someone how to operate, maintain and repair all of that stuff is probably years in and of itself. Some of these astronauts would have second thoughts or other issues that would cause them to drop out, as well, so you'd have to be training at least three to five people in case you lose some of them along the way.

Ultimately, the biggest bonus for the company, though, is that Sam is controllable and replaceable. If Sam loses his shit, is injured or has some sort of problem, the company can no doubt just neutralize that clone and pop open a new one, something they could never afford to do with a newly-trained astronaut. There's nobody to answer to if Sam is killed, no liability, no nothing. In essence, he's a better, more effective robot than the company is capable of building.

Last edited by tylergfoster; 01-17-10 at 02:33 PM.
Old 01-17-10, 03:16 PM
  #106  
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by droidguy1119
Spoiler:
The primary reason for this is that the cost of space travel, at this point, basically trumps any other cost imaginable. Sure, it's the future, but it's likely that cloning will be perfected sooner than space travel, even now, in the real world. If you took the scenario in the movie and applied it to today, and said that the moon was filled with a renewable super-resource that would solve the world's energy problems, it basically wouldn't be cost effective to send people up there and get it vs. just ignoring it. This is why we generally don't send people into space.

There's also the fact that these guys probably get paid a lot. I mean, if you WERE hiring astronauts, they'd want a pretty penny to be completely isolated for 3 years; in some senses it's no better than jail. Then there's the fact that you would literally have to train every single one -- I can't imagine anyone wanting to make a second trip if hallucination and psychological problems are common among the astronauts. That training in and of itself has gotta be remarkably expansive: from the movie, it seems clear that Rockwell really knows a massive amount about the mechanics of the station, the rovers, the mining machines, etc. etc., so training someone how to operate, maintain and repair all of that stuff is probably years in and of itself. Some of these astronauts would have second thoughts or other issues that would cause them to drop out, as well, so you'd have to be training at least three to five people in case you lose some of them along the way.

Ultimately, the biggest bonus for the company, though, is that Sam is controllable and replaceable. If Sam loses his shit, is injured or has some sort of problem, the company can no doubt just neutralize that clone and pop open a new one, something they could never afford to do with a newly-trained astronaut. There's nobody to answer to if Sam is killed, no liability, no nothing. In essence, he's a better, more effective robot than the company is capable of building.
Spoiler:
I'm not a cloning expert but keeping (possibly) hundreds of clones aboard the ship just seems more expensive than sending a human(s) to the moon once every three years. They still would have had to space travel all those clones there in the first place. They would also need some way to keep the clones maintained and alive the whole time. Using one person to run this station would be essentially "putting all their eggs in one basket". If Sam had psychological problems during his trip, it would make sense that his clones might also experience similar issues. Also you could never improve their training. New astronauts means you could learn from past missions and provide better training. Sam's clones wouldn't have learned anything new. Having multiple astronauts would also probably make it safer and less difficult psychologically. It wasn't a total deal killer for the movie but using clones just seemed unnecessary.
Old 01-17-10, 04:08 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

or couldn't they have made
Spoiler:
clones
that lasted more than 3 years? it would seem that
Spoiler:
Sam 1's deterioration was due to lasting longer than 3 and his body shutting down.
Old 01-17-10, 11:06 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by RyoHazuki
Spoiler:
I'm not a cloning expert but keeping (possibly) hundreds of clones aboard the ship just seems more expensive than sending a human(s) to the moon once every three years.
Spoiler:
We don't know where the clones were made. If they were made off-Earth, there may have been significant savings over transporting hundreds of humans from Earth.

As for the rest of the issues about clones, you either have to accept the film's premise that clones are cheaper, or not. There's hardly a "definitive" argument that can be made today about how a fictional future's economy works.


Originally Posted by scott1598
or couldn't they have made
Spoiler:
clones that lasted more than 3 years? it would seem that Sam 1's deterioration was due to lasting longer than 3 and his body shutting down.
Spoiler:
Isn't 3 years long enough? My take has been that the original Sam did spend a 3 year rotation on the moon, after which they cloned him. So they had 3 years of video messages from his girlfriend, and the Sam clones have the memory of signing up for a 3 year run. So 3 years was as long as they could reasonable expect to "dupe" a Sam clone.
Old 01-18-10, 01:21 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Superb film. 5 out of 5 stars in my book.
Old 01-18-10, 03:46 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by scott1598
or couldn't they have made
Spoiler:
clones that lasted more than 3 years?
Spoiler:
This is apparently a problem with real-life clones. It's very complicated and I'm probably explaining it wrong, but cells are basically alive and healthy because they've been around for however long they've been around. To cheat and clone someone at a certain age is unstable and eventually collapses. As of right now the only theoretical way someone could genuinely be cloned is way back at the fertilization stage, and then of course, it's barely a clone; more like a twin.
Originally Posted by RyoHazuki
Spoiler:
I'm not a cloning expert but keeping (possibly) hundreds of clones aboard the ship just seems more expensive than sending a human(s) to the moon once every three years.
What Jay G. said is really the bottom line, but
Spoiler:
this is exactly what I was getting at when it comes to space travel -- it's just ridiculous how astronomically (no pun intended) the price will trump anything and everything else. I imagine to send someone to the moon every three years costing close to a billion, while each clone costs close to a million. Or even the travel costs $100 million vs. $1 million for the clone. As for the price of sending the clones up there, the clones are all sealed in those lockers; the cost of space travel includes things like food, atmosphere, all of the stuff a human person would need to travel through space. Much easier to send a cargo rocket with a crate full of hibernating clones than to send actual people.

Last edited by tylergfoster; 01-18-10 at 03:50 PM.
Old 01-18-10, 04:32 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Just rented this from Redbox. Great flick. and Rockwell really deserves an award for his performance. That said, having not read any reviews prior or this thread and just having seen a trailer and the movie mentioned by a lot of people, I didn't realize that the reveal of what's happening was made so early. I actually thought it was going to be a big mystery about his hallucination and what's going on, so that was a bit of a surprise. I'm glad that wasn't what the movie ended up being about though, which was pleasant to see. Loved Gerty too, and Kevin Spacey's voice was perfect for it.

As for the discussion above...
Spoiler:
Is there any reason to assume that cost of space travel is the reason for massive clones? Nothing in the movie seems to indicate that being a reason, so it seems like an odd angle to take, any more then assuming a company would be ok with hundreds of clones to reboot over and over again for a hundred years then sending another shuttle eventually. Or just sending a small team rather then a single individual Regardless, the actual reasoning behind it doesn't really bother me anyway.
Old 01-18-10, 04:58 PM
  #112  
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by riotinmyskull
looks fairly accurate to me...

actual:


from film:
Well, no it doesn't, now does it?

And then there's this shot:



Nitpicky, I know, but I don't see why it's necessary to change the facts in this case. I like my pure sci-fi to be pure.

Last edited by Numanoid; 01-18-10 at 05:27 PM.
Old 01-18-10, 05:06 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Did anyone else get the little in-joke in that each clone is pre-packaged with a "Wake me when it's quitting time" t-shirt?

I also liked the very subtle touch of how you can see the previous smiley faces that had been erased on Sam's "calendar" wall.

Last edited by Numanoid; 01-18-10 at 05:10 PM.
Old 01-18-10, 05:36 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Okay, I recently watched this and I have a question:

Spoiler:
Where are we the audience in the timeline? I assume we are not seeing the original Sam, correct? When Sam clone, gets into contact with his daughter who is 15 years old, she calls for her dad. We never see him but I assume it would have been the original Sam?
Old 01-18-10, 05:43 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
Okay, I recently watched this and I have a question:

Spoiler:
Where are we the audience in the timeline? I assume we are not seeing the original Sam, correct? When Sam clone, gets into contact with his daughter who is 15 years old, she calls for her dad. We never see him but I assume it would have been the original Sam?
That's the way I interpret it.
Old 01-18-10, 07:04 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by Brian T
As well, it seems like some thought was put into naming the characters, robots, even the moon base (Sarang - too cool).
OK, I give up. The only thing I can find is that it means "spotted deer" in Indian and "love" in Korean.
Old 01-18-10, 09:15 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Spoiler:
Is there any reason to assume that cost of space travel is the reason for massive clones? Nothing in the movie seems to indicate that being a reason, so it seems like an odd angle to take, any more then assuming a company would be ok with hundreds of clones to reboot over and over again for a hundred years then sending another shuttle eventually. Or just sending a small team rather then a single individual Regardless, the actual reasoning behind it doesn't really bother me anyway.
Spoiler:
Basically, I think the process is:
"Why clones?"
"Why not clones?"
"Why not people?"
"Clones must be more beneficial."
"How would they be more beneficial?"
"Well, it's a company, and the company is trying to hide it from the clones, it must be a corner-cutting measure."
"Aren't clones expensive?"
"What's more expensive than clones?"

My answer being space travel.
Old 01-18-10, 11:22 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by Numanoid
Hated the enormously oversized and detailed view of the Earth from the Moon (the Earth is quite small and quite blurry when seen from the surface of the Moon).
What makes you think the Earth looks blurry from the moon? You would be seeing it with no atmosphere in the way. It should look quite sharp, and photos taken from the moon bear this out.
Originally Posted by Numanoid
Well, no it doesn't, now does it?
I think it does.

Nitpicky, I know, but I don't see why it's necessary to change the facts in this case. I like my pure sci-fi to be pure.
The Earth has a diameter four times that of the moon. From the moon, then, it should look larger than the moon does from Earth.

Also, in photographs, when it comes to how large a distant object appears relative to closer objects, the lens and perspective used to take the photo will affect things. In "Moon," the appearance of a relatively large Earth could be explained by the "photographer" being some distance away from the rover and using a longer focal-length lens. That would compress the apparent distance between the rover and exaggerate the size of the Earth.

So yes, you're being nitpicky.
Old 01-18-10, 11:54 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by Numanoid
OK, I give up. The only thing I can find is that it means "spotted deer" in Indian and "love" in Korean.
According to Wikipedia:

Sarang (Sanskrit: सारंग - Peacock) is the helicopter formation display team of the Indian Air Force. The team flies four HAL Dhruvs.

---

That's right, HAL.
Old 01-19-10, 07:26 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Spoiler:
About the cost of cloning vs. cost of space travel - the argument is weakened for cloning when we the audience realizes that there are other people on the moon. If there were no signs of anyone else being on the moon I can buy that, but there were others there on the moon.
Old 01-19-10, 08:39 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by rabbit77
Spoiler:
About the cost of cloning vs. cost of space travel - the argument is weakened for cloning when we the audience realizes that there are other people on the moon. If there were no signs of anyone else being on the moon I can buy that, but there were others there on the moon.
Spoiler:
There was nobody else on the moon when the accident occurred. The "rescue team" had to be sent to the moon from Earth, which is why it took them so long to arrive. My guess is that, like most short-notice emergency missions, it was an extremely expensive endeavor.
Old 01-19-10, 09:15 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Spoiler:
There was nobody else on the moon when the accident occurred. The "rescue team" had to be sent to the moon from Earth, which is why it took them so long to arrive. My guess is that, like most short-notice emergency missions, it was an extremely expensive endeavor.
Spoiler:
I guess I missed that detail. I thought they were on the other side. Hmmm, thinking about that and knowing that the company had the ability to send people out there in case of disaster regardless of where they come from weakens the film since Sam wasn't truly isolated. The idea that the rescue team is the motive for Sam to get out of dodge or else they'd be killed undermines the first two thirds of the film' atmosphere of Sam having to deal with his problems only by himselves.

If I were a business and had to look at the costs of implementing a clone program to do automaton work, it would be only carried out if it were the only option and because no one could regularly travel there feasibly.

This is a minor criticism of mine since I felt overall it was a superb thriller.
Old 01-19-10, 09:32 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Here's some shots of Earth from the moon.

First, a B&W image from Lunar Orbiter 1, where the Earth looks massive:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/...OIRP_moon.html

Then, an image from Apollo 8 in orbit:
http://pvastro0527.blogspot.com/2006...ems-to-be.html

Next, a larger version of the image riotinmyskull posted, where the earth looks clearer:
http://www.geography4kids.com/extras...h_1024x768.jpg

Finally, this page has a clear shot of earth from 1994:
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/photo_gal...earthmoon.html


It's hard to get a definitive sense of scale from these images, but the Earth looks quite large. Also, any appearance of the Earth being blurry is probably more a result of the tech used to take the picture, than how the Earth actually appears to the human eye on the Moon. As evidence, here's how the Lunar Orbiter 1 picture looked like before it was restored in 2008:
http://neverworld.net/lunar/lo1_h102_123.gif
Old 01-19-10, 09:49 AM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Spoiler:
Originally Posted by rabbit77
I guess I missed that detail. I thought they were on the other side. Hmmm, thinking about that and knowing that the company had the ability to send people out there in case of disaster regardless of where they come from weakens the film since Sam wasn't truly isolated. The idea that the rescue team is the motive for Sam to get out of dodge or else they'd be killed undermines the first two thirds of the film' atmosphere of Sam having to deal with his problems only by himselves.
The rescue team takes a few days to arrive, so in an emergency Sam is more or less reliant on himself to survive. Remember that if Sam 2 hadn't been awoken, Sam 1 likely would've died inside the rover before the rescue team arrived (as he did anyway).

Keep in mind that the rescue team was likely sent at great expense. I think that the harvester that was broken from the beginning of the film is a clue. It is possible that this sort of accident happened before, but sending out a rescue team to repair just one of four harvesters wasn't worth the cost, so they left it out of commission. It's only after a second harvester goes down that the company decides they need to send a team to the moon.

If I were a business and had to look at the costs of implementing a clone program to do automaton work, it would be only carried out if it were the only option and because no one could regularly travel there feasibly.
I guess it depends on how you define "feasibly." In the context of the film, it seems the company defined "feasibly" as "economically," and decided that the clone program was cheaper than the alternative.
Old 01-19-10, 01:39 PM
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Re: Moon (Duncan Jones, 2009)

Originally Posted by rabbit77
Spoiler:
If I were a business and had to look at the costs of implementing a clone program to do automaton work, it would be only carried out if it were the only option and because no one could regularly travel there feasibly.
Originally Posted by Jay G.
Spoiler:
I guess it depends on how you define "feasibly." In the context of the film, it seems the company defined "feasibly" as "economically," and decided that the clone program was cheaper than the alternative.
Spoiler:
Yeah, I mean...clearly the company knows it's doing wrong. Otherwise they wouldn't go to such great lengths to hide it, and they wouldn't be so patronizing to each clone in the video messages. I mean, sure, you might consider it a last-ditch effort, but then you wouldn't be thinking like the company in the movie.


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