KINO Metropolis at proper speed!
#51
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Yes, I was talking about shooting speeds.
Michael is a legitimate new member with a real passion for this film - I hope my work lives up to his standards (and Michael Koerber's, who has asked for a copy when I'm finished).
I think passion about film is great - it's just not enjoyable when the tone gets nasty. (The title of my post was just a little fun - I didn't expect such anger!)
I'll state my case for this project one last time, and only report on progress from now on.
1. No matter what evidence is cited, we will never be sure what projection speed Lang wanted for Metropolis. The score is marked 28fps, there's evidence the premiere was at either 26 or 24 fps, and the film itself appears to have been shot at 16fps. The BBC prepared a version at 18fps, Martin Koerber, the man who supervised the recent restoration, has screened the film at 20 fps, and a score was recently commissioned at that speed for the Berlin Film Festival. So it's clear that reasonable, informed people can disagree on this point. No one can claim they "know" the correct speed, no matter how much research they've done.
2. Viewing Metropolis, or any silent film, at the actual camera speed is not akin to colorization or cropping, since it at least accurately reproduces the performances of the actors. It is not out of the question that some silent films were originally screened at that speed, so viewing them that way is not necessarily historically inaccurate, and we can't be sure that it compromises the director's vision in the way colorization or croppng does.
3. Since I cannot hire an orchestra to re-record the Huppertz score at a slower speed, I am being forced to make concessions in order to match the score to the slower film speed. These include replacing intertitles with subtitles, removing titles that describe missing sections, time-stretching the music occasionally, repeating sections of music occasionally, and shortening certain static scenes. I wish I didn't have to make these alterations, but I am finding those to be my only choices.
4. Anyone who finds natural movement in silent films offensive is free to watch the sped-up versions. Anyone who wants to see Metropolis at camera speed, let me know!
Back to the editing room.... =)
Mark
Michael is a legitimate new member with a real passion for this film - I hope my work lives up to his standards (and Michael Koerber's, who has asked for a copy when I'm finished).
I think passion about film is great - it's just not enjoyable when the tone gets nasty. (The title of my post was just a little fun - I didn't expect such anger!)
I'll state my case for this project one last time, and only report on progress from now on.
1. No matter what evidence is cited, we will never be sure what projection speed Lang wanted for Metropolis. The score is marked 28fps, there's evidence the premiere was at either 26 or 24 fps, and the film itself appears to have been shot at 16fps. The BBC prepared a version at 18fps, Martin Koerber, the man who supervised the recent restoration, has screened the film at 20 fps, and a score was recently commissioned at that speed for the Berlin Film Festival. So it's clear that reasonable, informed people can disagree on this point. No one can claim they "know" the correct speed, no matter how much research they've done.
2. Viewing Metropolis, or any silent film, at the actual camera speed is not akin to colorization or cropping, since it at least accurately reproduces the performances of the actors. It is not out of the question that some silent films were originally screened at that speed, so viewing them that way is not necessarily historically inaccurate, and we can't be sure that it compromises the director's vision in the way colorization or croppng does.
3. Since I cannot hire an orchestra to re-record the Huppertz score at a slower speed, I am being forced to make concessions in order to match the score to the slower film speed. These include replacing intertitles with subtitles, removing titles that describe missing sections, time-stretching the music occasionally, repeating sections of music occasionally, and shortening certain static scenes. I wish I didn't have to make these alterations, but I am finding those to be my only choices.
4. Anyone who finds natural movement in silent films offensive is free to watch the sped-up versions. Anyone who wants to see Metropolis at camera speed, let me know!
Back to the editing room.... =)
Mark
#52
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Originally Posted by talemyn
Well, if he was talking about shooting speeds (I didn't look back to see the context), there seems to be some support for that.
I'm not sure what the source of your quote is, as I don't see a link (unless I'm missing it), but it's not particularly convincing or well-supported. And, no, I don't think the fact that a number of other people, without any research or evidence, have said something before counts as "support."
Anyway, it doesn't make much sense for marknyc to have been talking about shooting speeds in the prior thread. There has never been much dispute that Metropolis was shot slower than 24fps; marknyc used to place it at 20fps himself. Why bother claiming that no silents were shot faster than 20fps if no one claims Metropolis was? No matter; it's wrong either way.
Regardless of whether or not it is accurate (not sure we'll ever know), creating a version that plays at 16fps certainly doesn't seem like so crazy of an idea and could add some interesting material to add to the debate.
#53
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Originally Posted by marknyc
Michael is a legitimate new member with a real passion for this film - I hope my work lives up to his standards
(and Michael Koerber's, who has asked for a copy when I'm finished).
1. No matter what evidence is cited, we will never be sure what projection speed Lang wanted for Metropolis. The score is marked 28fps, there's evidence the premiere was at either 26 or 24 fps, and the film itself appears to have been shot at 16fps. The BBC prepared a version at 18fps, Martin Koerber, the man who supervised the recent restoration, has screened the film at 20 fps, and a score was recently commissioned at that speed for the Berlin Film Festival. So it's clear that reasonable, informed people can disagree on this point. No one can claim they "know" the correct speed, no matter how much research they've done.
Let's say I told you that, due to the strangeness of the earliest years of my life, I am not sure when I was born, but my best research shows that I am between 24 and 28 years old. Would you bother throwing me a 16th birthday party that year? It would be a goofy thing to do, unless you were joking.
2. Viewing Metropolis, or any silent film, at the actual camera speed is not akin to colorization or cropping, since it at least accurately reproduces the performances of the actors.
It is not out of the question that some silent films were originally screened at that speed, so viewing them that way is not necessarily historically inaccurate, and we can't be sure that it compromises the director's vision in the way colorization or croppng does.
If we have a film shot spherically, with various original releases having been projected at 1.66:1, 1.75:1, and 1.85:1, but we don't have any other evidence to figure out the correct AR...does it make it OK to project it at 2.35:1 just because other films have been projected that way?
Showing evidence of other similar films in a given time period can be useful for for verifying that evidence you've found isn't inherently defective. For example, the fact that other 16fps silents were projected at 24fps means that it isn't inherently dubious that Metropolis premiered at 24fps. However, it doesn't work the other way. If you've got no evidence at all to support a given theory of presentation of a film, looking to other films from the time period is meaningless in the face of actual evidence for contrary theories. Thus, there being no historical support for Metropolis being shown at 16fps, the fact that other silents may have been projected at 16fps doesn't even make a dent in the great weight of evidence for a 24-28fps speed. Unless you've truly got nothing in the way of historical evidence about how a given film should be presented, looking to other films doesn't mean much.
3. Since I cannot hire an orchestra to re-record the Huppertz score at a slower speed, I am being forced to make concessions in order to match the score to the slower film speed. These include replacing intertitles with subtitles, removing titles that describe missing sections, time-stretching the music occasionally, repeating sections of music occasionally, and shortening certain static scenes. I wish I didn't have to make these alterations, but I am finding those to be my only choices.
4. Anyone who finds natural movement in silent films offensive is free to watch the sped-up versions.
DJ
Last edited by djtoell; 08-21-05 at 01:30 AM.
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DJTOELL misses the point about Metropolis. It was shot at 16fps, the standard of the day. It was not shot at 24fps, apart from the stop action cityscape sequences which were shot at the faster speed, apparently. Where is the evidence that Lang wanted it run in the cinema's at 24-28 fps? There is none. Therefore we should look at the film as shot. Forget about Brownlow and others, and their comments on other films, or finding examples of such and such. We are talking about a specific film here. DVD copies should reproduce the film as shot. The National Film and Sound Archives in Canberra distributes its copy of Metropolis run at 16fps. Pending the discovery of clear instructions by Fritz Lang that he wanted his film run at greater than 16fps, then we must should run it and view it as shot. The "fast" Huppertz score is just one element of the postproduction tampering of this film. We only have to look at modern films such as Daredevil and Bladerunner to realise that producers and film studios have a lot of control over whether the director's vision reaches the public. Often it does not. For all we know a reel or two of Lang's original cut may have been omitted from the film during its original release, to shorten it. I am sure Lang's "Director's Cut" would have included all the 4189m of film, run at around 16-18fps and with a suitably appropriate Huppertz score, much the same as his previous epic, Nibelungen. After having looked at countless versions of Metropolis over the years I have come to the realisation that the best version, in my view, is the version as shot i.e. run at 16fps. And isn't this logical? The advent of DVD means that we can now see these old films in good quality, not cropped or subject to pan and scan, run at their original shooting speed, and with original tinting and scores. Like the recent releases of films by Charlie Chaplin. People will continue to meddle with Metropolis for years to come - speed it up, cut it, colourise it, add various soundtracks. That is all well and good, but the legacy of Lang and his team is the raw film. Shot at 16fps. And that's a good place to start.
#56
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Originally Posted by MichaelO
DJTOELL misses the point about Metropolis. It was shot at 16fps, the standard of the day.
Hey, you say it was the standard of the day. Find me hard evidence of 16fps projection, intended by the director, for as many silent films as you can. I'll wait. If it was the standard, as you say, you should be able to provide thousands of such examples. It should be an easy task for you, since it only asks you to prove your own claims. You don't go around making unsupported claims, do you?
It was not shot at 24fps, apart from the stop action cityscape sequences which were shot at the faster speed, apparently. Where is the evidence that Lang wanted it run in the cinema's at 24-28 fps? There is none.
Again, find me evidence of as many silent films as you can of intended 16fps projection. Since you can't provide any for Metropolis, can you find it for other films?
DVD copies should reproduce the film as shot.
The National Film and Sound Archives in Canberra distributes its copy of Metropolis run at 16fps. Pending the discovery of clear instructions by Fritz Lang that he wanted his film run at greater than 16fps, then we must should run it and view it as shot.
The "fast" Huppertz score is just one element of the postproduction tampering of this film.
I am sure Lang's "Director's Cut" would have included all the 4189m of film, run at around 16-18fps and with a suitably appropriate Huppertz score, much the same as his previous epic, Nibelungen.
You make these blanket statements, completely devoid of any historical context or research, and you expect it to hold any weight? It doesn't. It's just your opinion. And up against historical reality, it should be ignored when trying to figure out how to present the film correctly.
After having looked at countless versions of Metropolis over the years I have come to the realisation that the best version, in my view, is the version as shot i.e. run at 16fps. And isn't this logical?
That is all well and good, but the legacy of Lang and his team is the raw film. Shot at 16fps. And that's a good place to start.
DJ
Last edited by djtoell; 08-21-05 at 09:08 PM.
#57
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comparing modern day hollywood films (daredevil, and blade runner) to a movie made in Germany in the 1920's is like comparing modern day detroit cars to 1920 german cars....in essence they are the same, but the way they are made, marketed and sold are very diffrent things. The US studio system of today is leaps and bounds diffrent than it was in the the 20's. And UFA Germany was as far away from either as could be found.
At the same time When Lang was making Metropolis he was hardly a fresh face. He had directed a dozen films before metropolis, and had been entrusted with a large financial investment.
Anyone who has ever read a review with Lang will come to know quickly that he was quick to speak his mind about the studio systems in both Germany and U.S. Furthermore he has spouted off several times about the butchering of his metropolis for subsequent releases. However never once did he mention that it was played to fast. Lang lived into the 1970's and didn't shy away from interviews. He saw his films through several revivals, homages, and even become a favorite of the 16mm home screening versions sold through magazine ads and shown on college campuses.
Never once has he said it played to fast. It is absurd to think that cue sheets which passed over langs desk and are marked for the original speed are wrong.
At the same time When Lang was making Metropolis he was hardly a fresh face. He had directed a dozen films before metropolis, and had been entrusted with a large financial investment.
Anyone who has ever read a review with Lang will come to know quickly that he was quick to speak his mind about the studio systems in both Germany and U.S. Furthermore he has spouted off several times about the butchering of his metropolis for subsequent releases. However never once did he mention that it was played to fast. Lang lived into the 1970's and didn't shy away from interviews. He saw his films through several revivals, homages, and even become a favorite of the 16mm home screening versions sold through magazine ads and shown on college campuses.
Never once has he said it played to fast. It is absurd to think that cue sheets which passed over langs desk and are marked for the original speed are wrong.
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Metropolis at Camera Speed
Well, I've finally finished this project that I began last August (I had to put it away for a few months), and the finished product is a revelation. Let me start by describing what I did:
I took the beautiful KINO restoration and converted it to an mpeg, and then began working on it it Pinnacle Studio 9. The first step was to remove all the titles describing the lost footage (great for historical purposes, but not so great if your ultimate goal is a watchable film).
Then I replaced all the remaining intertitles with subtitles, using a nice deco typeface in an attempt to match the fantastic deco production design of the film.
Then I began to slow the film down, since it's clear to anyone watching the film that it was not shot at 24 fps. People have argued that the film was orginally shown at that speed (I disagree), but I don't think anyone claims it was shot that fast.
As I experimented with different speeds, I found myself choosing 66% as the speed over and over again, meaning that the film was most likely shot at 16 fps. For these sequences, I was able to get the music to match by just repeating certain sections, and by shortening certain static shots, so they ran the same length as in the 24 fps version. (Removing the intertitles helped a lot, too.)
But once I got to the ending sequences, things changed. In order to get natural movement for all the scenes involving the uprising and destruction of the worker's city, I had to choose 50%, meaning these scenes were shot at 12 fps. I can believe that Lang undercranked with the intention of showing the film at 18fps, but I find it hard to accept that he wanted the entire last half hour shown at double speed! As I said, others disagree.
In order to make these sequences work without re-recording the score, I unfortunately had to do some re-editing. Lang had an editing style strange even for his day, I think: every shot is as long as possible! If someone is going to run across the frame, the scene starts before he enters and doesn't end until he leaves. Every door must close completely before a cut is made, every car must leave the frame, etc.
So, by some judicious tightening of shots (heresy, I know) I was able to bring it in at a running time of 118 minutes - 6 minutes shorter than the 24 fps version! I don't know quite how that happened, since the entire film is there, and I had to repeat a number of music sections. I guess losing all the intertitles made a bigger difference than I expected.
Someone wrote to me, "That's a lot of work just to get natural movement." But the final result is so much more. One thing I learned about showing films at other than camera speed is that it's incredibly disrespectful to the actors. It's hard enough to act without sound, but to attempt to emote so that it comes across when your performance is sped up is virtually impossible.
At camera speed, Freder and Maria's meeting is poignant, not hokey; her pursuit by Rotwang is frightening, not funny (it's gotten laughs every time I've seen it with an audience at sound speed); and the robot's erotic dance actually is!
I believe that at camera speed, the many complaints that Metropolis' story is inferior to its production design fade away. Sure, the final message is still facile, but at least the drama and power of the story are not lost in "Keystone-cops" chases and reactions.
I'd love for people to see it! Anyone want to arrange a screening? Let me know...
Mark
I took the beautiful KINO restoration and converted it to an mpeg, and then began working on it it Pinnacle Studio 9. The first step was to remove all the titles describing the lost footage (great for historical purposes, but not so great if your ultimate goal is a watchable film).
Then I replaced all the remaining intertitles with subtitles, using a nice deco typeface in an attempt to match the fantastic deco production design of the film.
Then I began to slow the film down, since it's clear to anyone watching the film that it was not shot at 24 fps. People have argued that the film was orginally shown at that speed (I disagree), but I don't think anyone claims it was shot that fast.
As I experimented with different speeds, I found myself choosing 66% as the speed over and over again, meaning that the film was most likely shot at 16 fps. For these sequences, I was able to get the music to match by just repeating certain sections, and by shortening certain static shots, so they ran the same length as in the 24 fps version. (Removing the intertitles helped a lot, too.)
But once I got to the ending sequences, things changed. In order to get natural movement for all the scenes involving the uprising and destruction of the worker's city, I had to choose 50%, meaning these scenes were shot at 12 fps. I can believe that Lang undercranked with the intention of showing the film at 18fps, but I find it hard to accept that he wanted the entire last half hour shown at double speed! As I said, others disagree.
In order to make these sequences work without re-recording the score, I unfortunately had to do some re-editing. Lang had an editing style strange even for his day, I think: every shot is as long as possible! If someone is going to run across the frame, the scene starts before he enters and doesn't end until he leaves. Every door must close completely before a cut is made, every car must leave the frame, etc.
So, by some judicious tightening of shots (heresy, I know) I was able to bring it in at a running time of 118 minutes - 6 minutes shorter than the 24 fps version! I don't know quite how that happened, since the entire film is there, and I had to repeat a number of music sections. I guess losing all the intertitles made a bigger difference than I expected.
Someone wrote to me, "That's a lot of work just to get natural movement." But the final result is so much more. One thing I learned about showing films at other than camera speed is that it's incredibly disrespectful to the actors. It's hard enough to act without sound, but to attempt to emote so that it comes across when your performance is sped up is virtually impossible.
At camera speed, Freder and Maria's meeting is poignant, not hokey; her pursuit by Rotwang is frightening, not funny (it's gotten laughs every time I've seen it with an audience at sound speed); and the robot's erotic dance actually is!
I believe that at camera speed, the many complaints that Metropolis' story is inferior to its production design fade away. Sure, the final message is still facile, but at least the drama and power of the story are not lost in "Keystone-cops" chases and reactions.
I'd love for people to see it! Anyone want to arrange a screening? Let me know...
Mark
Last edited by marknyc; 07-10-06 at 04:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by The Bus
This sounds extremely interesting.
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Originally Posted by DVD Josh
Absolutely. BTW, isn't this in the public domain? I know you used the KINO restored version, but the movie is in the PD. That being the case, you could probably post this online somewhere, no?
That said, where can we get a DVD-R copy again?
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Yea, I'd love to see all the hard work you put in on this project. I hate watching Metropolis at 24fps, it's just not right...
Send me a PM and maybe we can work something out.
Send me a PM and maybe we can work something out.
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Thanks for all the interest. As to my being "ripped apart" in another thread, there are certainly people on this board who feel it is blasphemy to even think of re-interpreting another artist's work, but I feel that the original projection speed of Metropolis is debatable at best, and I just wanted to see what it looked like at at camera speed, since it possibly was screened that way originally.
Martin Koerber, who supervised the KINO restoration, wrote me recently saying, "You may interested to know that Filmmuseum Munich recommended for years to show their restoration at 16 fps..." So I am not alone in this opinion.
The one area in which I have contradicted Lang's choice is in compensating for undercranking. Certain scenes were shot at 12fps, as was the convention of the time when shooting chase sequences, etc. I wanted to restore the entire film to camera speed, so those scenes are slowed down to 50% of the KINO speed. This is purely personal preference, and I can understand why film historians would not agree with this choice. For me, it makes all the chase sequences far more watchable.
But my efforts are being faithful to certain artists' work: the actors. Their performances can now be seen as they gave them, in some scenes for the first time. It's a revelation, as I noted in my first post.
If anyone wants more info, please send me an email!
Mark
dcfvgb at hotmail dot com
Martin Koerber, who supervised the KINO restoration, wrote me recently saying, "You may interested to know that Filmmuseum Munich recommended for years to show their restoration at 16 fps..." So I am not alone in this opinion.
The one area in which I have contradicted Lang's choice is in compensating for undercranking. Certain scenes were shot at 12fps, as was the convention of the time when shooting chase sequences, etc. I wanted to restore the entire film to camera speed, so those scenes are slowed down to 50% of the KINO speed. This is purely personal preference, and I can understand why film historians would not agree with this choice. For me, it makes all the chase sequences far more watchable.
But my efforts are being faithful to certain artists' work: the actors. Their performances can now be seen as they gave them, in some scenes for the first time. It's a revelation, as I noted in my first post.
If anyone wants more info, please send me an email!
Mark
dcfvgb at hotmail dot com
Last edited by marknyc; 06-19-06 at 03:42 PM.
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My first review - and from a stranger, too!
Mark
______________________________________
WOW!
Mark - I got your Metropolis dvd yesterday and had a good look at it last night. It is terrific. Amazing in some ways, actually. To see the movie with the intertitles deleted is great (in most instances) and your subtitles work well (in most instances). And of course, running the film at the speed it was filmed is great. For example, the footage of the first meeting of Freder and Maria with the children in the Garden of Sons is so much more poignant, and there are many other instances of much more moving moments, and this was not evident in any other version I had seen. Most of the "silliness" is gone in your version. And the way in which the music tied in with the footage was great - it shows, just as I thought, that the music runs at camera speed, and to therefore run the film faster is a travesty. There are a few instances where the subtitles don't work - especially where there is not enough film to accomodate them on the screen, or where they cover up an important image, such as Maria in the transformation tube. But overall I think you have done something really interesting and innovative. I think in the future I will use your version to show people what Metropolis is REALLY like. Congratulations.
Michael
Mark
______________________________________
WOW!
Mark - I got your Metropolis dvd yesterday and had a good look at it last night. It is terrific. Amazing in some ways, actually. To see the movie with the intertitles deleted is great (in most instances) and your subtitles work well (in most instances). And of course, running the film at the speed it was filmed is great. For example, the footage of the first meeting of Freder and Maria with the children in the Garden of Sons is so much more poignant, and there are many other instances of much more moving moments, and this was not evident in any other version I had seen. Most of the "silliness" is gone in your version. And the way in which the music tied in with the footage was great - it shows, just as I thought, that the music runs at camera speed, and to therefore run the film faster is a travesty. There are a few instances where the subtitles don't work - especially where there is not enough film to accomodate them on the screen, or where they cover up an important image, such as Maria in the transformation tube. But overall I think you have done something really interesting and innovative. I think in the future I will use your version to show people what Metropolis is REALLY like. Congratulations.
Michael
#69
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Wow . . . congratulations! It must be extremely satisfying to have pulled something like this off.
And add me to the list of people who'd be interested in taking a look.
And add me to the list of people who'd be interested in taking a look.
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I too, would love to see this. If you plan on doing a screening in NY anytime between June 25th and July 13, I'll be home in Staten Island and would definately go out of my way to see this.
And I'm sure many people here at my school (Brooks Institute of Photography, Ventura, CA) would love to see it, as well. We have weekly film screenings and if you're interested I can probably have one set up with all credit towards you.
And I'm sure many people here at my school (Brooks Institute of Photography, Ventura, CA) would love to see it, as well. We have weekly film screenings and if you're interested I can probably have one set up with all credit towards you.
Last edited by CKMorpheus; 06-20-06 at 07:29 PM.
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Hey, CK, I'd love to arrange a screening. A friend can reserve the big-screen theater in his apartment building in midtown Manhattan so we can see it as it should be shown. What's a good date? How about the first or second weekend in July?
Anybody who wants to come, or who wants more info about the DVD, send me an email:
[email protected]
Best,
Mark
Anybody who wants to come, or who wants more info about the DVD, send me an email:
[email protected]
Best,
Mark
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Another review, from a stranger:
I did manage to get to watch it tonight, and you're right, it's like watching another movie entirely. The entire mood feels different, far less manic and nervous. And it's obvious you put a lot of work into it. The transfer looked really nice, as did the scene selection screen. I could tell when you made some of your edits, but overall they weren't so distracting. Very well done! I'll definitely be showing this to some of my cinefile friends.
I did manage to get to watch it tonight, and you're right, it's like watching another movie entirely. The entire mood feels different, far less manic and nervous. And it's obvious you put a lot of work into it. The transfer looked really nice, as did the scene selection screen. I could tell when you made some of your edits, but overall they weren't so distracting. Very well done! I'll definitely be showing this to some of my cinefile friends.
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One more review. (I swear I am not writing these myself! =)
I am nothing short of astonished at what you have accomplished here with METROPOLIS. Quite frankly, the entire affair has a level of professionality to it I wasn't expecting; no offence intended, it's just very clear that an abundant amount of talent, tenacity and passion went into this re-edit that I wouldn't have believed possible outside of a studio proper, and now the original Kino DVD comes off as such a disappointment in comparison. Thanks for taking the time to show us the METROPOLIS we all deserve.
I am nothing short of astonished at what you have accomplished here with METROPOLIS. Quite frankly, the entire affair has a level of professionality to it I wasn't expecting; no offence intended, it's just very clear that an abundant amount of talent, tenacity and passion went into this re-edit that I wouldn't have believed possible outside of a studio proper, and now the original Kino DVD comes off as such a disappointment in comparison. Thanks for taking the time to show us the METROPOLIS we all deserve.