9/11 Review from DVD Talk - Pure Genius...Er I Mean Trash
06-23-04, 12:43 PM
#101
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by dick_grayson
Yes! The way stealing the election in 2000 did for Bush?
Yes! The way stealing the election in 2000 did for Bush?
Someone seems like a sore loser though?
06-23-04, 12:44 PM
#102
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by RockStrongo
I do not have a problem with people speaking out against Bush or anyone.
I do have a problem with Moore making these accusations without fully backing them with facts. It seems slanderous to me.
He has become what he says he despises.
I highly doubt this will have a positive affect on the election in Nov.
I do not have a problem with people speaking out against Bush or anyone.
I do have a problem with Moore making these accusations without fully backing them with facts. It seems slanderous to me.
He has become what he says he despises.
I highly doubt this will have a positive affect on the election in Nov.
Originally posted by Chrisedge
What the movie says is this: "It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."
These facts are based entirely on the findings contained in the 9/11 commission draft report, which states, "After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin." National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12;
What the movie says is this: "It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."
These facts are based entirely on the findings contained in the 9/11 commission draft report, which states, "After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin." National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12;
06-23-04, 12:44 PM
#103
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chanster, just a question. Have you ever posted anything on here, either liking anything MM has done, or any positive thing about him, OR anything negative about Bush?
06-23-04, 12:46 PM
#104
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin." National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12;
06-23-04, 12:47 PM
#105
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by RockStrongo
Wrong. If his facts were supported, then he could easily answer questions that the press throws at him.
For example....
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, wait. But what wasn't true? Because it says here in the 9/11 commission report that these flights didn't take off until after the airspace reopened. That is true, correct?
MOORE: No, they were on charter flights. Once the airspace opened for commercial flights, they hadn't opened for the charter flights. And so the charter flights that picked up the bin Ladens around the country, that went to the various cities — this was all assisted by the White House, which really should be the real focus of this.
Moore alluded that these people flew before the airspace reopened. Even GK said it in his review!!!
Wrong. If his facts were supported, then he could easily answer questions that the press throws at him.
For example....
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, wait. But what wasn't true? Because it says here in the 9/11 commission report that these flights didn't take off until after the airspace reopened. That is true, correct?
MOORE: No, they were on charter flights. Once the airspace opened for commercial flights, they hadn't opened for the charter flights. And so the charter flights that picked up the bin Ladens around the country, that went to the various cities — this was all assisted by the White House, which really should be the real focus of this.
Moore alluded that these people flew before the airspace reopened. Even GK said it in his review!!!
06-23-04, 12:47 PM
#106
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
Seems he got facts from the above report. Did you miss my original post?
Seems he got facts from the above report. Did you miss my original post?
His movie makes people think that they left while airspace was closed. It is misleading. Read GK's review.
06-23-04, 12:49 PM
#107
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lyon Estates
Posts: 10,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RockStrongo
wow, big can of worms that we wont get into.
Someone seems like a sore loser though?
wow, big can of worms that we wont get into.
Someone seems like a sore loser though?
06-23-04, 12:50 PM
#108
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by chanster
So whats the point of this fact? That planes left the United States after airspace re-opened? Can people not leave the United States? The report does not mention the White House approving those flights, Michael Moore does
So whats the point of this fact? That planes left the United States after airspace re-opened? Can people not leave the United States? The report does not mention the White House approving those flights, Michael Moore does
06-23-04, 12:54 PM
#109
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
That's up to the viewer to decide. You might that it as a "So what"? Other folks may take it as "That's fishy"
That's up to the viewer to decide. You might that it as a "So what"? Other folks may take it as "That's fishy"
They lead the viewer to believe that the airspace was closed when in fact, it wasn't.
There is no leaving it up to the viewer to decide. If so, then he would have included a statement about the 9/11 commission's finding that these flights happened after airspace was reopened.
06-23-04, 12:57 PM
#110
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
The first of the flights were on Sept 13, at a time when the vast majority of the public could not get on a commerical airline. Moore is right, there should be a different focus, instead the right tries to pick everylittlething apart to discredit the whole movie. Same thing they did with BFC.
The first of the flights were on Sept 13, at a time when the vast majority of the public could not get on a commerical airline. Moore is right, there should be a different focus, instead the right tries to pick everylittlething apart to discredit the whole movie. Same thing they did with BFC.
06-23-04, 01:01 PM
#111
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally posted by chanster
I would rather hear the truth instead of Michael Moore's wild assertions.
I don't have to see the movie to get an "entry pass" into a debate about historical facts.
I would rather hear the truth instead of Michael Moore's wild assertions.
I don't have to see the movie to get an "entry pass" into a debate about historical facts.
Mr. Kleinman's review is - in my opinion - simply stating that he found the evidence presented by the film to be both convincing and compelling. This is the same process that occurs any time a critic renders an opinion. He or she may find elements of that work accomplish the artists intent, or that they do not. That is simply the process of criticism. Other viewers, with different perspectives, may have a different opionions and perspectives.
The bottom line is that any review is by its very nature simply a summary of the reviewer's opinions. It should not be incumbent on the reviewer to preface every other line of his review with the caveat that its simply his or her own opinion. That is a given.
And as for the quality or factuality of the underlying film, it seems to me that the opinion of someone who has actually seen the film (no matter his or her verdict) would carry much more weight than someone who is speculating about the message and content of the film based on what he or she has heard from other sources.
Last edited by Sex Fiend; 06-23-04 at 01:05 PM.
06-23-04, 01:06 PM
#112
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your basis for dispute seems to be second-hand accounts from other source "reviews"
06-23-04, 01:07 PM
#113
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr. Kleinman's review is - in my opinion - simply stating that he found the evidence presented by the film to be both convincing and compelling.
From the review by Geoff:
One of the biggest jaw dropping revelations in the film is the clearly documented, deep connections between the Bush and Bin Laden families. I know, it's hard to believe, but no one's making this stuff up!This connection between the two families runs so deep that while most commercial airlines were grounded after 9/11 (on 9/13) Bush ordered that members of the Bin Laden family (along with some other Saudi nationals) be flown out of the country. This happened without investigators having the opportunity to really question them or detain them. Mind blowing.
06-23-04, 01:08 PM
#114
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
I hate quoting myself.
I hate quoting myself.
The commission said that it was from 9/14.
06-23-04, 01:11 PM
#115
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is also interesting to note that Geoff has revised his review
That was not in the original review. See my quote of the review on p.1 near the bottom.
commercial airlines were grounded after 9/11(on 9/13)
06-23-04, 01:11 PM
#116
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by chanster
From the review by Geoff:
One of the biggest jaw dropping revelations in the film is the clearly documented, deep connections between the Bush and Bin Laden families. I know, it's hard to believe, but no one's making this stuff up!
From the review by Geoff:
One of the biggest jaw dropping revelations in the film is the clearly documented, deep connections between the Bush and Bin Laden families. I know, it's hard to believe, but no one's making this stuff up!
When GK mentioned Bush approved the flights, you complained and said he didn't. When presented with the facts that MM states some one highup (whitehouse, Clarke, etc) approved the flights, you say "So What?"
Can't you question your Presidents involvement in possible wrong-doings?
06-23-04, 01:13 PM
#117
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you denying a connection?
I don't deny there was a connection, I do dispute this connection led to preferential treatment
06-23-04, 01:13 PM
#118
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
Are you denying a connection?
When GK mentioned Bush approved the flights, you complained and said he didn't. When presented with the facts that MM states some one highup (whitehouse, Clarke, etc) approved the flights, you say "So What?"
Can't you question your Presidents involvement in possible wrong-doings?
Are you denying a connection?
When GK mentioned Bush approved the flights, you complained and said he didn't. When presented with the facts that MM states some one highup (whitehouse, Clarke, etc) approved the flights, you say "So What?"
Can't you question your Presidents involvement in possible wrong-doings?
06-23-04, 01:16 PM
#120
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by RockStrongo
You can quote yourself all you want, but he does not have proof that the planes left on 9/13.
The commission said that it was from 9/14.
You can quote yourself all you want, but he does not have proof that the planes left on 9/13.
The commission said that it was from 9/14.
I still stand by my comment that most folks couldn't fly for about a week. I know many folks stranded after 5-6 days.
06-23-04, 01:19 PM
#121
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,539
Received 204 Likes
on
118 Posts
Originally posted by RockStrongo
It is just interesting that noone has said that Bush approved it. Even Clarke who has been very critical of the Bush admin.
It is just interesting that noone has said that Bush approved it. Even Clarke who has been very critical of the Bush admin.
06-23-04, 01:19 PM
#122
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know many folks stranded after 5-6 days.
Bu I do know if you wanted to pay big bucks, you could travel. That has nothing to do with Bush.
06-23-04, 01:20 PM
#123
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chrisedge
I stand corrected. I have not seen the movie, so I can't comment if Michael Moore mentions the 13th or the 14th. The Trailer says "Days After 9/11"
I still stand by my comment that most folks couldn't fly for about a week. I know many folks stranded after 5-6 days.
I stand corrected. I have not seen the movie, so I can't comment if Michael Moore mentions the 13th or the 14th. The Trailer says "Days After 9/11"
I still stand by my comment that most folks couldn't fly for about a week. I know many folks stranded after 5-6 days.
When discussing this in the film, there is a scene where Ricky Martin is wandering around an airport and Moore says 'Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly'. This makes the viewer believe that the Saudis/Bin Ladens left before airspace was reopened which is inaccurate.
06-23-04, 01:25 PM
#124
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the review is still wrong when it says "commercial airlines were grounded after 9/11(on 9/13) Bush ordered that members of the Bin Laden family (along with some other Saudi nationals) be flown out of the country."
Isn't it fun when you try to present something that you have no proof of as facts! Leads to a lot of editing, backtracking, etc. The fact that it is completly wrong about Bush but tries to legitimize itself by pointing out a fact (albeit an inaccurate fact) is amusing
Isn't it fun when you try to present something that you have no proof of as facts! Leads to a lot of editing, backtracking, etc. The fact that it is completly wrong about Bush but tries to legitimize itself by pointing out a fact (albeit an inaccurate fact) is amusing
Last edited by chanster; 06-23-04 at 01:27 PM.
06-23-04, 01:27 PM
#125
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by chanster
So the review is still wrong when it says "commercial airlines were grounded after 9/11(on 9/13) Bush ordered that members of the Bin Laden family (along with some other Saudi nationals) be flown out of the country."
Isn't it fun when you try to present something that you have no proof of as facts! Leads to a lot of editing, backtracking, etc.
So the review is still wrong when it says "commercial airlines were grounded after 9/11(on 9/13) Bush ordered that members of the Bin Laden family (along with some other Saudi nationals) be flown out of the country."
Isn't it fun when you try to present something that you have no proof of as facts! Leads to a lot of editing, backtracking, etc.