Galanthas

I don't consider voting out one corrupt politician and voting in another corrupt one, any kind of change I would like.

NoxHaveN

In which case, I think we would be arguing the same side to the issue then.

I am in no means a pacificst, nor am I a Neville Chamberlain, or a Benedict Arnold for that matter. But I do believe in justice, and if punishment and retribution is to be dealt, then we should be certain of those who are guilty of committing the crimes, rather than going to war to further a few men's personal vendettas and interests.

And even though these threads and comments get everyone worked up, I believe largely that it is a good thing. For those who have cared enough to post their views, however different, at the very least... care. If nothing else, Moore's films have provoked thought on issues that otherwise may not have made it to the forefront of our busy lives. You think, therefore you are.


-NHN

Galanthas

It's strange really, I pay a lot of attention to politics on radio and tv, it's facisnating to me, somewhat like religion(I'm agnostic). I do know what's going on, I just happen not to care enough to vote with the how the political system is at the moment. Sorry, my one vote will not change the political system. People running for office very rarely if ever win/lose by one vote.

The Nature Boy

I find that to be a completely valid explanation. To me, the fact that people are NOT voting speaks a world of truth in that their frustration is to the point of apathy. Not voting IS a message. Frustration at these levels could propel a 3rd party, without little doubt in my mind.

docF94

Galanthas, while I respect and appreciate your right not to vote, the reason you listed above sounds like pure arrogance. "Oh, well, if my vote is not going to be the Most Important Vote then it's worthless."

One vote makes a difference, but it's rare that an election asks you to cast 1 vote. There are sometimes dozens of candidates/issues confronting voters at the polls - and certainly in November you will be casting a vote for President and Representative, if not Senator and mayor and ballot initiative #3 about the strippers, and so on. All of these decisions will have very dramatic effects on you, and your community, and your wallet, and your ability to do various things - get credit cards, close a mortgage, etc. No, you aren't alone in the world - hundreds of others are making similar decisions. But at least the choices that must be made are being made.

One can vote for selfish reasons, or for social reasons, or for political reasons. But voting reflects the one aspect of your role in government that you have power over. Those who do not vote, like children, are subject to the will of those that do. Galanthas, you seem to be a very black/white thinker - no politician running is good enough to earn your vote, and no election is close enough to allow you the power of the deciding vote. "I won't vote until Jesus is running for sum'in." I think this reflects a significant misunderstanding of the purpose of the vote. We vote because we have an opinion about the issues confronting our society. If our opinions differ, then we use the vote to decide the issue. If we are unanimous, then there is an official record of our unanimity. But we are a society that grants an extraordinary amount of freedom and respect to minority opinion. What gets no respect in this or any society is the unstated, unexpressed opinion. And not voting is abdicating responsibility. I view it as cowardly and unintelligent - though Jim Lehrer views it as balanced and professional, and others have various opinions.

Voting is about the importance of thinking. If you think and don't vote, your thoughts are less valuable and less influential, and thus less good. That is why it is stupid to not vote. It removes the power from your thought, and removes the small amount of power you hold over your own destiny as a citizen. So while I again respect your decision, Galanthas, I sincerely hope you will reconsider it. A protest vote is powerful - though a tad sanctimonious - so please feel free to vote for "None of the Above" or whatever. But to not take any part in making a communal decision is both the height of arrogance, and the depth of self-loathing. Voting is the recognition that you live in a world where other people live, too, and we are all in it together.

Beannachd leat.

EDITED for spelling.

Galanthas

Wow, essentially calling me arrogant, unintelligent and cowardly all in one post. If you feel I'm arrogant that's fine, all I can say is I don't think of myself as anymore important or worthy than anyone else.

Giantrobo

Well since my people have only been voting since the 50's and 60's we will agree to disagree.

I think voting for people you don't like or believe in is an immoral vote.

immoral

\Im*mor"al\, a. [Pref. im- not + moral: cf. F. immoral.] Not moral; inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law; wicked; unjust; dishonest; vicious; licentious; as, an immoral man; an immoral deed.

Giantrobo

OR...any kind of change at all.

But people keep voting for people they don't like expecting different results. Sounds like an AA meeting to me.

docF94

Galanthas, I need to apologize if you felt personally insulted by my post. What I meant to say was the reasons you gave, as I understand them, for not casting a vote, strike me as arrogant, cowardly, and unintelligent reasons. I make stupid, cowardly, and arrogant decisions from time to time - but I try not to be stupid, cowardly, etc as a person.

So to the extent I personally insulted you, I am truly sorry and revoke those comments. However, I stand by my comments as describing your attitude towards voting, as described here. If needed, I can probably go on at length as to why I feel this way toward your decision. But as I said, I stand by and respect your decision, I just don't understand it. And I continue to hope you will reconsider participating.

Djuledja.

Galanthas

Wasn't insulted, more surprised than anything. I rarely, if at all, get called those sorts of names.

I just don't understand the notion that someone who chooses not to vote, as is their right not to, is unintelligent or cowardly, that's all.

MasterCXtreme

Damn, these Michael Moore threads grow like wildfire!

The movie looks interesting and I'll see it because I apreciate all of the things MM tries to say and tries to get through to the viewer. But I do agree some of his stuff is rather askew. I don't think we need to make a whole documentary about it and title it "Micheal Moore Hates America," that seems unnecessary.

Hearing all of Kerry's views on the war makes me nervous and how they practically mirror Bushs', at least from what I've heard. I like Moore's idea of trying to bring up a Green party. That might straighten things out. But then again, it might not... seem's worth trying to me.

docF94

I don't understand why this is coming up either, since it isn't what I said. At all. I'm making no judgments about the someone who chooses, only the choice and rationale.

Na shledanou.

kninestile

johnglass

Then this is obviously your first Michael Moore thread.

TheAllPurposeNothing

Morality is not so black and white, however. For instance, while I'm not overly fond of Kerry, I would consider it acting against my conscience to not vote against Bush. What if not voting means that you inadvertently support someone you don't like or believe in? To quote Rush (the band...not the talk show idiot), "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

I do consider it my duty to vote for who I feel is the best candidate, warts and all. Its not dishonesty to accept some faults in a candidate. I find it much more dishonest to vote for a candidate strictly because they fall along party lines or because your dad did or didn't or because you don't like their hair. You have to research and chose.

To me, its like faith. I don't believe in passing down religion. While it is necessary to teach your children a good moral foundation, you can't force faith on them. If you do, then the faith is not real. Faith is something you acquire...not something that is given to you. And you need to always learn and question what you learn. There's nothing wrong with picking and choosing since it comes down to what you believe...where your faith lies.

Fro whatever reason your people were unable to vote (though constitutionally it has been open to all citizens over 16 since the turn of the 20th century) or chose not to vote, that should not be a factor in your personally giving support to one candidate or another. Review all the candidates and find the one you think can best lead. Learn and question what you learn. Research. Actively get involved in learning. And if, at the end, you don't care for any of the ten or so balloted candidates, then write-in.

But vote.

In the words of Jefferson:

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves, and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion."

Tafellappen

Quoting either Rush is very stupid!

rushmore223

Hope your not talking about me.

TheAllPurposeNothing

While I would typically agree (I personally dislike the band but my wife seems to like them), I do find a great deal of truth in that one line.

Its the only line from the band I ever found worth remembering.

But if it makes you happy, here's a smiliar quote from American philosopher William James:

"When you have to make a choice and don't make it, that is in itself a choice."

Is that better??

raven56706

Hope this movie comes out..... will enjoy this one....

Jonny2k1

This looks like a good view of the other side. Hopefully it will be as effective as MM's movies.

JBurns24

there can be an argument that says anyone who exaggerates certain facts can make an effective movie if people aren't educated about what's really the truth

Iron_Giant

If he tells the truth and does not give half truths, then I will see it.

If he edits only to prove his point, then I will not see it.

TheAllPurposeNothing

But how will you determine whether he does or not? The atmosphere around the film is already partisan enough.

What possible objective source can you find to make that determination?

Just playing devil's advocate here...

Hokeyboy

You know what was a really good Rush album? A Farewell To Kings. Oh, and Permanent Waves. That was cool. They kind of lost me after Signals, up until Presto or so. Then Eddie introduced me to The Turner Diaries. Whoa!

Tafellappen

Still sounds like a line out of Matrix Reloaded.