why do people not like Episode VI?
05-23-04, 12:48 PM
#26
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
I think the biggest problem with Jedi is that they had too much to wrap-up in one movie - making a lot of the events simplistic, and others feeling just "rushed".
I like the movie, but I don't love it like Episodes IV & V. I feel the same about Jedi as I do Attack of the Clones - it's an enjoyable watch, but not one of my favorite films.
Oddly enough, Jedi DOES contain my favorite moment in the entire Star Wars series:
I think the biggest problem with Jedi is that they had too much to wrap-up in one movie - making a lot of the events simplistic, and others feeling just "rushed".
I like the movie, but I don't love it like Episodes IV & V. I feel the same about Jedi as I do Attack of the Clones - it's an enjoyable watch, but not one of my favorite films.
Oddly enough, Jedi DOES contain my favorite moment in the entire Star Wars series:
Spoiler:
And I enjoy ROTJ anyways. A lot of neat stuff happens, though I admit it does seem a bit rushed. As for the ending song, Yub Yub is a good end for the trilogy, and the new montage of planets is a good end for the saga, if that makes any sense.
05-23-04, 01:10 PM
#28
DVD Talk Gold Edition
If TESB hadn't been so good, no one would've noticed how weakly ROTJ ends the trilogy. The last 40 minutes of ROTJ is an all out Star Wars movie, with the non-stop action (the battle on Endor, the dogfight in space, and the final confrontation between Luke & Vader).
I did like the scene between Luke and his father on Endor, particularly that one moment where Vader's back is turned on Luke as he listens to his son's words. This is something rare for Vader. Usually he is this very intimidating, imposing figure who can kill outright if you get in his way. Here, he is seen during one of his few moments of weaknesss and reflection. And when Luke tells him, "Then my father is truly dead," those words really stung Vader. He had nothing to say in his defense, and when he left alone for a moment, he seems to be at a loss of words. Those words probably hurt him more than any lava bath, or the loss of his mother and wife.
The movie does have its moments, but there was less originality than the predecessors.
I did like the scene between Luke and his father on Endor, particularly that one moment where Vader's back is turned on Luke as he listens to his son's words. This is something rare for Vader. Usually he is this very intimidating, imposing figure who can kill outright if you get in his way. Here, he is seen during one of his few moments of weaknesss and reflection. And when Luke tells him, "Then my father is truly dead," those words really stung Vader. He had nothing to say in his defense, and when he left alone for a moment, he seems to be at a loss of words. Those words probably hurt him more than any lava bath, or the loss of his mother and wife.
The movie does have its moments, but there was less originality than the predecessors.
05-23-04, 01:14 PM
#29
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Originally posted by huh?
I watched TPM yesterday, and I kow I'm in the minority here, but I prefer it AND AOTC to Jedi. I still like Jedi, but the other 5 are much more original.
I watched TPM yesterday, and I kow I'm in the minority here, but I prefer it AND AOTC to Jedi. I still like Jedi, but the other 5 are much more original.
05-23-04, 01:41 PM
#30
The only 2 things that I love in ROTJ:
-The Luke/Vader/Palpy scenes
-Oola's thighs
-The Luke/Vader/Palpy scenes
-Oola's thighs
05-23-04, 03:19 PM
#32
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The 3-way battle was first done on RoTJ with the space battle, ground battle, and lightsaber duel, and done as best as it could have done with what was presented on both sides.
Repeating the same thing in TPM lacks innovation and imagination.
Repeating the same thing in TPM lacks innovation and imagination.
05-23-04, 03:42 PM
#33
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In the end, I like them all the same. ESB gets more play of course in my house but I dont hate any of them for any reason. I will watch, buy, and like any SW movie that Lucas makes no matter what. There is no perfect movie and never will be... I think the rest of the day will be watch SW day 
05-23-04, 04:39 PM
#34
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I just started watching SW ANH SE instead of the original release and I must say, I forgot how alot of the new effects help the movie. Sure, I am not forgetting the originals but these are nice. I just noticed that Jabba does look goofy, hopefully that is one of the changes in Sept.
05-23-04, 06:09 PM
#36
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by greenknight
The 3-way battle was first done on RoTJ with the space battle, ground battle, and lightsaber duel, and done as best as it could have done with what was presented on both sides.
Repeating the same thing in TPM lacks innovation and imagination.
The 3-way battle was first done on RoTJ with the space battle, ground battle, and lightsaber duel, and done as best as it could have done with what was presented on both sides.
Repeating the same thing in TPM lacks innovation and imagination.
Yeah, maybe it is derivative, but I'm not sure what they could have changed.
Besides making the saber duel longer.
And one minor point, have R2 coach Anakin on firing at the inside of the Trade Federation ship. I know he's a wonder boy, but that's pushing it.
05-23-04, 06:20 PM
#37
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I love ROTJ. It used to be favorite film in the Holy Trilogy until I was 15 and rewatched Empire, finally seeing the light. But it's still a great movie IMO and a fitting end to the trilogy(and eventually the entire series).
One brief moment in ROTJ that truly captures the brilliance of the original SW films in my mind is right after the Rancor is killed by Luke. That fat dude pushes Luke out of the way and runs up to the Rancor, looking stunned. A few seconds later, he breaks down in tears and is comforted by another one of Jabba's henchman. That moment is what separates this trilogy from any other series of films(and the prequels for that matter).
But what do I know? I still to this day at age 26 love the Ewoks, find Boba Fett's demise to be fitting, and enjoy the "Lapti Nek" and "Yub Yub" numbers.
No arguments on Carrie Fisher's performance though. Her coked out presence nearly ruined some very pivotal scenes in the film.
One brief moment in ROTJ that truly captures the brilliance of the original SW films in my mind is right after the Rancor is killed by Luke. That fat dude pushes Luke out of the way and runs up to the Rancor, looking stunned. A few seconds later, he breaks down in tears and is comforted by another one of Jabba's henchman. That moment is what separates this trilogy from any other series of films(and the prequels for that matter).
But what do I know? I still to this day at age 26 love the Ewoks, find Boba Fett's demise to be fitting, and enjoy the "Lapti Nek" and "Yub Yub" numbers.
No arguments on Carrie Fisher's performance though. Her coked out presence nearly ruined some very pivotal scenes in the film.
05-23-04, 06:33 PM
#38
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I don't see why everybody hated the Ewoks. They, like the Rebellion, seem almost laughable against the Empire yet still manage to defeat them at the end. Sure the fighting in the forest may seem unrealistically one-sided, but the Ewok's were fighting on their own home turf. They showed that you needn't use technology and guns to defeat the enemy. However, I do think it was silly how one of the Ewok's swung a rock and hit himself, and made a cute little sound like he just got a bump, even though they throw these at the Stormtroopers in full armor and they fall to the ground and die. 
Also TESB was very dark by nature, so since ROTJ was the final episode I think Lucas wanted to put a positive spin on the entire series and did so by adding the Ewoks. Most all of the aliens displayed in Ep. 4 & 5 were nefarious and dark, so it only seems natural for the Ewok's to be introduced as a more amiable race of beings that will fight for good.
The Han and Leah love story was very cliched, boring, and silly. It seems out of place and most all of the corny lines in the entire movie revolve around this facet. "Who are you?" "Someone who loves you!"
I have no objections to the "Yub Yub" song. I think it's a great ending for the series. Everybody is together again, celebrating, singing, and are happy that the Empire is finally destroyed.
Also TESB was very dark by nature, so since ROTJ was the final episode I think Lucas wanted to put a positive spin on the entire series and did so by adding the Ewoks. Most all of the aliens displayed in Ep. 4 & 5 were nefarious and dark, so it only seems natural for the Ewok's to be introduced as a more amiable race of beings that will fight for good.
The Han and Leah love story was very cliched, boring, and silly. It seems out of place and most all of the corny lines in the entire movie revolve around this facet. "Who are you?" "Someone who loves you!"
I have no objections to the "Yub Yub" song. I think it's a great ending for the series. Everybody is together again, celebrating, singing, and are happy that the Empire is finally destroyed.
05-23-04, 06:42 PM
#39
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Palpatine in ROTJ is a one note bore.
he cackles, he taunts, he hisses "aren't i evvvvillll?"
it's pathetic to realize this character , in that movie, has even less nuance and depth than Dr Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
Vaders duel with Luke is powerful?
why?
the drive and sentiment in the sequence is totally undermined 5 minutes later when Vader suddenly decides to act counter to the way he has been portrayed in the previous 5 1/2 hours of screen time
"you know what...5 minutes ago i was hellbent on destroying you and threatening to corrupt my daughter/your sister, but now that i'm broken and near death, i'm having a complete change of heart. maybe if i just pick up the emperor, who can't seem to switch off his finger tip power bolts, and toss him down this convienently placed shaft, maybe that will make up for years of abuse, murder, and evil doings.
Thank the force that the Emperor, for as evil and as powerful as he is, lacks the power of simple levitiation!"
this is such a major, fundemental change in the character that it could have been honestly powerful, if the film had spent a few more scenes earlier setting this change up to be ...logical.
but it isn't. it's completely arbitrary- especially coming right on the heels of a sequence when Vader is trying his best to slay/break Luke in a duel.
why should anyone well up with emotion when the character makes a decision after hes been beaten and broken and is near death?
it would have been one thing if Vader had stopped in mid duel...or more importantly- when he had the upper hand, and then turned on the emperor.
if he had hesitated and gone silent just before delievering the killing blow, and you could imagine the conflict going on in his head-
but even that would have needed to have been set-up much better earlier in the film.
just one part of this lousy film, rife with stupid, schmaltzy, phony emotion.
jmo of course
he cackles, he taunts, he hisses "aren't i evvvvillll?"
it's pathetic to realize this character , in that movie, has even less nuance and depth than Dr Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
Vaders duel with Luke is powerful?
why?
the drive and sentiment in the sequence is totally undermined 5 minutes later when Vader suddenly decides to act counter to the way he has been portrayed in the previous 5 1/2 hours of screen time
"you know what...5 minutes ago i was hellbent on destroying you and threatening to corrupt my daughter/your sister, but now that i'm broken and near death, i'm having a complete change of heart. maybe if i just pick up the emperor, who can't seem to switch off his finger tip power bolts, and toss him down this convienently placed shaft, maybe that will make up for years of abuse, murder, and evil doings.
Thank the force that the Emperor, for as evil and as powerful as he is, lacks the power of simple levitiation!"
this is such a major, fundemental change in the character that it could have been honestly powerful, if the film had spent a few more scenes earlier setting this change up to be ...logical.
but it isn't. it's completely arbitrary- especially coming right on the heels of a sequence when Vader is trying his best to slay/break Luke in a duel.
why should anyone well up with emotion when the character makes a decision after hes been beaten and broken and is near death?
it would have been one thing if Vader had stopped in mid duel...or more importantly- when he had the upper hand, and then turned on the emperor.
if he had hesitated and gone silent just before delievering the killing blow, and you could imagine the conflict going on in his head-
but even that would have needed to have been set-up much better earlier in the film.
just one part of this lousy film, rife with stupid, schmaltzy, phony emotion.
jmo of course
05-23-04, 07:03 PM
#40
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Originally posted by ckolchak
"you know what...5 minutes ago i was hellbent on destroying you and threatening to corrupt my daughter/your sister, but now that i'm broken and near death, i'm having a complete change of heart. maybe if i just pick up the emperor, who can't seem to switch off his finger tip power bolts, and toss him down this convienently placed shaft, maybe that will make up for years of abuse, murder, and evil doings.
Thank the force that the Emperor, for as evil and as powerful as he is, lacks the power of simple levitiation!"
this is such a major, fundemental change in the character that it could have been honestly powerful, if the film had spent a few more scenes earlier setting this change up to be ...logical.
but it isn't. it's completely arbitrary- especially coming right on the heels of a sequence when Vader is trying his best to slay/break Luke in a duel.
why should anyone well up with emotion when the character makes a decision after hes been beaten and broken and is near death?
it would have been one thing if Vader had stopped in mid duel...or more importantly- when he had the upper hand, and then turned on the emperor.
if he had hesitated and gone silent just before delievering the killing blow, and you could imagine the conflict going on in his head-
but even that would have needed to have been set-up much better earlier in the film.
"you know what...5 minutes ago i was hellbent on destroying you and threatening to corrupt my daughter/your sister, but now that i'm broken and near death, i'm having a complete change of heart. maybe if i just pick up the emperor, who can't seem to switch off his finger tip power bolts, and toss him down this convienently placed shaft, maybe that will make up for years of abuse, murder, and evil doings.
Thank the force that the Emperor, for as evil and as powerful as he is, lacks the power of simple levitiation!"
this is such a major, fundemental change in the character that it could have been honestly powerful, if the film had spent a few more scenes earlier setting this change up to be ...logical.
but it isn't. it's completely arbitrary- especially coming right on the heels of a sequence when Vader is trying his best to slay/break Luke in a duel.
why should anyone well up with emotion when the character makes a decision after hes been beaten and broken and is near death?
it would have been one thing if Vader had stopped in mid duel...or more importantly- when he had the upper hand, and then turned on the emperor.
if he had hesitated and gone silent just before delievering the killing blow, and you could imagine the conflict going on in his head-
but even that would have needed to have been set-up much better earlier in the film.
05-23-04, 07:19 PM
#41
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally posted by Kal-El
Add one more to the camp of those who loved the "yub yub" song.
Add one more to the camp of those who loved the "yub yub" song.
Originally posted by Matthew Chmiel
The yub yub song was the only decent thing the Ewoks ever provided. EVER PROVIDED!
The yub yub song was the only decent thing the Ewoks ever provided. EVER PROVIDED!
Originally posted by Matthew Chmiel
And the special edition took the Ewok song at the end out. THE ONLY ENJOYABLE THING ABOUT THE EWOKS COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF THE ****ING FILM! **** YOU LUCA$!
And the special edition took the Ewok song at the end out. THE ONLY ENJOYABLE THING ABOUT THE EWOKS COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF THE ****ING FILM! **** YOU LUCA$!
Yub Yub is the worst original movie score!!!!!!EVAR!!!!!!
05-23-04, 07:21 PM
#42
DVD Talk Gold Edition
I believe Vader decided to kill the Emperor because after Luke had Vader at his mercy, the Emperor told him to take his father's place. I think at that moment he (Vader) realized that the Emperor saw him as dispensable and was merely using him. Of course, that's not the whole reason. Seeing his son writhing in pain and begging his father to save him had to of struck a chord. However, I can totally see your point. It is a bit far-fetched to go from one polar opposite to the other.
he could EASILY, right now, be filming scenes that take place in the 1st and 2nd acts of this movie, that would elaborate and expand upon the nature of the relationship between Vader and the Emperor- that would underscore and give credence to interpretations like the above-
but he's not- and he didn't see this as a weakness or something that had bothered him when he was working up the SEs back in 1996.
for example, if we had seen that the Emperor's relationship w/ Vader was like that between a 'needy' son and his exploitive parent, if the emperor was abusive and dismissive with Vader and Vader seemed to lack the 'character' or personality component to override this, and he looked at Luke as the 'vehicle' by which he could finally break free, himself, from the emperors leash- that would have been grounded in honest, understandable, logical human emotion.
they even alluded to this at the end of ESB where Vader tries to get Luke to 'Join him and together we can defeat the emperor".
at the time i took that as just BS from Vader who was trying to seduce Luke into believing this attractive fantasy- because earlier we had seen just how servile Vader was to the Emperor.
seeing how dynamic the character was in the previous two films, to suddenly see him all wishy-washy and indecisive for seemingly no good reason (or the flimsiest of reasons) is not satisfying.
i just can't buy that this prime agent of evil, who is now 'more machine than man', would get sentimental over a human being who he has absolutely no shared history or experience with.
if Lucas wanted to tell a story about a father who abandons his children when they are infants and then comes back into their lives to help them when they are grown- we would have to at least be given enough info to sympathize with the father and how much he regrets making that decision which kept him out of their lives.
if that film, however, ignored tht aspect, and then threw us a schmaltzy ending where everybody hugs and all the ill feelings are swept away- the film would be justly derided as pablum.
how about a story where the teen hero, who wants to be a policeman, is being pursued by his father (a person he has never known) who is working as a hit man for the major crime boss in the city, and who has orders to kill him.
the first time they have a face to face confrontation, the evil hitman father shoots his sons hand off, after which the son decides that 'you know what, there is a lot of good in that man".
after he goes to the trouble of getting his best friend out of a life and death situation that his father was responsible in orchestrating, he decides to go see him again, at which point the father shows how much he loves his son by staging another fight to the death with him, except that he is the one who falls in the battle and is mortally wounded.
the evil hitman dads boss sees this and decides to finish the job (that he originally gave the dad to execute) himself, at which point, the evil hitman dad decides that he has more love for the person who he abandoned and never knew, than he does for the mentor/father figure he has spent the last 20 yrs with.
so he kills the Godfather with whom he has shared memories and a shared value system, at which point the grateful son rushes into the arms of the person who abandoned him as a child and tried to kill him and his friends as an adult, and they share a few tounching tender words before the evil hitman father is allowed to die in peace thankfully never having to face justice for his crimes.
UGH!
try selling that load of BS to any audience other than a SW audience and see what the reaction is.
Last edited by ckolchak; 05-23-04 at 08:24 PM.
05-23-04, 09:03 PM
#44
DVD Talk Limited Edition
The list Rivero posted is right-on-the-money, especially number 1.
I can't be the only one who cheered for the Imperial Troops against the Ewoks. In the ultra-sappy scene in which an Ewok is killed and his little buddy grieves over him, I wanted to yell out "Hey stormtroopers, come back! You missed one!!!"
George Lucas fell prey to the Dark Side with the one, the greed of trying to come up with merchandising ideas for the screen instead of trying to make the best movie possible.
I can't be the only one who cheered for the Imperial Troops against the Ewoks. In the ultra-sappy scene in which an Ewok is killed and his little buddy grieves over him, I wanted to yell out "Hey stormtroopers, come back! You missed one!!!"
George Lucas fell prey to the Dark Side with the one, the greed of trying to come up with merchandising ideas for the screen instead of trying to make the best movie possible.
05-23-04, 09:08 PM
#45
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ckolchak,
I think the main reason people look past the flaws and consider this one of the best films is because of nostalgia. In my entire childhood I'd have to say the most vivid memories were of watching Star Wars when it appeared on HBO, and watching TESB and ROTJ. I can remember being 6-7 years old and watching a worn out tape of Star Wars over and over again. Now that I'm older I can totally see how the movie (especially ROTJ) and the myriad of flaws and holes it had. However, I can't NOT love these movies. I admit, I'm not a fan of the SEs at all, as I was hoping for the OT. However, because I love the essense of these films, and have fond memories of watching them all throughout my life, I will no doubt buy the set when it comes out September.
True, Lucas could of further developed the relationship between Vader and Luke, and Vader and the Emperor, but Lucas had a plethora of ideas that he waned to share and had only limited time to do so. If you consider the many facets of the film, it's amazing how he even got it all off.
It's like loving the place you grew up. True, it may not be perfect, any others may say it's not an ideal place to live, but when it comes down it to.. it's home! Yeah a weak analogy, but that's all I can muster right now.
I think the main reason people look past the flaws and consider this one of the best films is because of nostalgia. In my entire childhood I'd have to say the most vivid memories were of watching Star Wars when it appeared on HBO, and watching TESB and ROTJ. I can remember being 6-7 years old and watching a worn out tape of Star Wars over and over again. Now that I'm older I can totally see how the movie (especially ROTJ) and the myriad of flaws and holes it had. However, I can't NOT love these movies. I admit, I'm not a fan of the SEs at all, as I was hoping for the OT. However, because I love the essense of these films, and have fond memories of watching them all throughout my life, I will no doubt buy the set when it comes out September.
True, Lucas could of further developed the relationship between Vader and Luke, and Vader and the Emperor, but Lucas had a plethora of ideas that he waned to share and had only limited time to do so. If you consider the many facets of the film, it's amazing how he even got it all off.
It's like loving the place you grew up. True, it may not be perfect, any others may say it's not an ideal place to live, but when it comes down it to.. it's home! Yeah a weak analogy, but that's all I can muster right now.
05-23-04, 09:42 PM
#46
DVD Talk Gold Edition
I think the main reason people look past the flaws and consider this one of the best films is because of nostalgia.
and when someone admits that they like it for that reason, then i won't argue the point.
i understand, and can sympathize with, that sensibility completely.
i get irked though, when people hold up ROTJ as an example of when "Lucas still had the magic- that he has since lost with the prequels".
i find that sentiment patently absurd.
i don't mind people liking ROTJ (for sentimental reasons) and i don't mind people liking or hating the prequels- when they try to make the case that one contains intrinsicly superior storytelling, thats when i get prickly.
05-23-04, 10:32 PM
#47
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When I was younger, my favorite SW movie was ROTJ with Empire coming in last ... basically because I loved the Luke/Vader fight in ROTJ and hated the Han in carbonite plot in Empire. This ranking of the films flip-flopped as I grew older, and now ROTJ is my least favorite original trilogy movie with Empire ranking as the best ... it's amazing how tastes change, eh?
05-23-04, 10:51 PM
#49
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally posted by ckolchak
Palpatine in ROTJ is a one note bore.
he cackles, he taunts, he hisses "aren't i evvvvillll?"
it's pathetic to realize this character , in that movie, has even less nuance and depth than Dr Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
Palpatine in ROTJ is a one note bore.
he cackles, he taunts, he hisses "aren't i evvvvillll?"
it's pathetic to realize this character , in that movie, has even less nuance and depth than Dr Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
(P.S. I grew up with these movies too, but I lack any trace of nostalgia for ROTJ because I didn't like it much then and like it even less now.)
05-23-04, 11:14 PM
#50
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ROtJ was friggin' Citizen Kane, 2001 & [insert name of favourite, classic film here] all rolled into one compared to AOtC.
For me it would be ESB, SW, ROtJ, tPM, the Ewok TV movies, the Droids/Ewok cartoons, the Holiday Special, ANY Kenner SW commercial.....and then AOtC [only cuz i'd have to].
For me it would be ESB, SW, ROtJ, tPM, the Ewok TV movies, the Droids/Ewok cartoons, the Holiday Special, ANY Kenner SW commercial.....and then AOtC [only cuz i'd have to].