I'm still stuck on Matrix 2 & 3 [spoilers!]
#26
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Suprmallet
Why not? Just because he's a machine doesn't mean he has to be entirely forthcoming or always tell the truth. Maybe it was a threat that he wasn't willing to actually go through with. Either that or he got distracted with Smith. I'd be willing to accept that explanation. He was planning to kill everyone, but they were all Smithified so he couldn't do it, and then Neo made the deal to stop Smith and the Architect just had to grin and bear it.
Why not? Just because he's a machine doesn't mean he has to be entirely forthcoming or always tell the truth. Maybe it was a threat that he wasn't willing to actually go through with. Either that or he got distracted with Smith. I'd be willing to accept that explanation. He was planning to kill everyone, but they were all Smithified so he couldn't do it, and then Neo made the deal to stop Smith and the Architect just had to grin and bear it.
Had Neo went back to try to save Zion and Trinity instead of going to The Source everyone would have died. Smith would have killed the humans in the Matrix when he took over the machine world and the machines would have finished off Zion.
Instead Neo goes to The Source and Trinity dies.
#27
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#28
Banned by request
No, he doesn't go to the source. If he had gone to the source, his code would have been disseminated through the Matrix, rebooting it, and he would have picked the 12 people or however many it was to rebuild Zion. He goes through the door to save Trinity and Zion.
#30
DVD Talk Hero
Actually, at the very end, I interpreted that after Neo blasts away all the Smith virus infections of the people in the Matrix, his body is carried back to the source in the Machine city. But at this point, the deal is different, there is no need for more iterations of the Matrix code because those who choose to stay in the Matrix will do so, and others will be released.
Will the Matrix code be upgraded? Maybe, but it won't be from using Neo's code to do the upgrading anymore.
The relationship between man and machine has changed.
Will the Matrix code be upgraded? Maybe, but it won't be from using Neo's code to do the upgrading anymore.
The relationship between man and machine has changed.
#31
DVD Talk Godfather
It's because Seraph was an Exile. Part of the function of the Agents, as revealed in Reloaded, is, in addition to dealing with rogue humans hacking in and out of the Matrix, to round up and delete all Exiles hiding within the Matrix. Exiles like the Merovingian who was basically running a huge smuggling ring as revealed in Revolutions. Note that in the club the Merovingian says of Seraph "the Prodigal Son returnes" and later calls him "my little Judas". I took this to mean that Seraph came to the Matrix as the Merovingian's right hand mand and eventually chose to betray him and side with the Oracle. So, regardless of his bodyguard function, he was still an Exile and seen by the Agents as someone who needed deleting. Thus, when Smith said "I remember hunting you is like chasing a ghost" is in reference to when Smith was stil an Agent of the Matrix, prior to his defeat at the hands of Neo in the end of the first movie.
#32
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Originally posted by rennervision
Although beefjerky already stated all the Smiths returned to normal, I have to admit I'm EXTREMELY confused by this. Didn't the Architect specifically tell Neo that if he chose to save Trinity, it would result in the death of everyone connected to the Matrix? Well - Neo did not return to the source, and instead opened the door to go save Trinity.
Although beefjerky already stated all the Smiths returned to normal, I have to admit I'm EXTREMELY confused by this. Didn't the Architect specifically tell Neo that if he chose to save Trinity, it would result in the death of everyone connected to the Matrix? Well - Neo did not return to the source, and instead opened the door to go save Trinity.
We see an interesting play between God and the Serpent in the Architect scene. Neo rejects the right hand door, and thus the offer to sacrifice himself and save humanity and sit at the right hand of god. At this moment, Neo is the "quintessential" human. He has rejected the Garden and rejected divinity to embrace the "weakness" and imperfection of man. The Architect could see this, and he had given into the fact that Neo would make the choice that he did. He wasn't bluffing. The matrix was going to crash, and either way, the machines were going to destroy Zion. To him, he was just carrying out what was necessary to balance the equation. He didn't have to understand why he was making the choices, he just knew that he had to in order to keep the equations going.
The matrix has been stuck on the sixth day for a long time. Each time it reloads, the One, the representation of man, is created, but it never goes any further than that. When Neo comes around, he reluctantly forces the Architect to accept that the sixth day will end, and the seventh will come. Metaphorically, god has accepted that man will be man, with all of his imperfections, and he realizes that his job is over. The seventh day is inevitable, and his purpose will be complete. He can finally rest.
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Originally posted by Patman
Will the Matrix code be upgraded? Maybe, but it won't be from using Neo's code to do the upgrading anymore.
The relationship between man and machine has changed.
Will the Matrix code be upgraded? Maybe, but it won't be from using Neo's code to do the upgrading anymore.
The relationship between man and machine has changed.
Originally posted by Michael Corvin
This is one of(many) the things that makes me believe the Merovingian was a previous (possibly first) Neo.
This is one of(many) the things that makes me believe the Merovingian was a previous (possibly first) Neo.
#34
DVD Talk Godfather
Originally posted by beefjerky
The matrix was never upgraded each time with the One's code. The journey of the One was always meant to keep the system static. Neo came along and released the matrix from it's static state, and was key in reuniting the machines with god (the humans that created them in their likeness), and man with god (the all omnipotent machines).
The matrix was never upgraded each time with the One's code. The journey of the One was always meant to keep the system static. Neo came along and released the matrix from it's static state, and was key in reuniting the machines with god (the humans that created them in their likeness), and man with god (the all omnipotent machines).
#35
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by fumanstan
I was under the impression that the Matrix was "upgraded" after each iteration in an attempt to make it more "perfect" according to what the Architect said in Reloaded.
I was under the impression that the Matrix was "upgraded" after each iteration in an attempt to make it more "perfect" according to what the Architect said in Reloaded.
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Originally posted by fumanstan
I was under the impression that the Matrix was "upgraded" after each iteration in an attempt to make it more "perfect" according to what the Architect said in Reloaded.
I was under the impression that the Matrix was "upgraded" after each iteration in an attempt to make it more "perfect" according to what the Architect said in Reloaded.
II.) Matrix #2 - Designed with the grotesqueries of human nature. No choice given to humans. Failure.
III.) Matrix #3, ver. 1 - Choice given to humans. Anomaly of the One appears.
1.) Matrix #3, ver. 2 - Second appearance of the One. After the first reload of the matrix
2.) Matrix #3, ver. 3 - Third appearance of the One. After the second reload of the matrix
3.) Matrix #3, ver. 4 - Fourth appearance of the One. After the third reload of the matrix
5.) Matrix #3, ver. 5 - Fifth appearance of the One. After the fourth reload of the matrix
6.) Matrix #3, ver. 6 - Neo appears. After the fifth reload of the matrix.
IV.) Matrix #4 (Matrix #3, ver. 7) - Enlightened matrix.
So no, the matrix was never "upgraded" after each appearance of the One. It was reloaded after each version of the One in order to keep it in, what the Architect thought was, a static, working state. This is the third matrix. The Architect never tried to make this third version of the matrix "more perfect." It was designed with human imperfection because that was the only way that it worked. The only times the matrix was changed was after the first and second matrix, and after the third matrix.
Last edited by beefjerky; 04-12-04 at 09:00 PM.
#37
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by Michael Corvin
This is one of(many) the things that makes me believe the Merovingian was a previous (possibly first) Neo. Didn't Cipher betray Neo? But instead of siding with the Oracle Cipher wanted 'reinsertion.' Albiet a different way of looking at things.
This is one of(many) the things that makes me believe the Merovingian was a previous (possibly first) Neo. Didn't Cipher betray Neo? But instead of siding with the Oracle Cipher wanted 'reinsertion.' Albiet a different way of looking at things.
Also, this would fit with beefjerky's theory of different characters at different times taking on the role of devil. Cypher's name was a play on Lucifer. So obviously he's playing the devil role when he tells Trinity that Morpheus lied to them. Remeber, devil comes from the Greek word diabolos which means "slanderer". The Merovingian plays a similar role to this in the sense that he also puts into question the Oracle's motives when he says to our heroes that they think they know why they are meeting him but truly do not as they were never given a choice (free will). Moreso does the Merovingian take on the devil role in terms of the name the devil is refered to, Satan. The word satan appears without a definite article many times in the Hebrew Scriptures. In this way it applies to the angel that stood in the road to resist Balaam when he set out to curse the Israelites (as found in the book of Numbers 22:22,32). Yet, to refer to the chief Advesary of God, it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil. In the Greek Scriptures the word satanas applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.
My point with all this is that the Merovingian is not some previous One but a program that sees itself in equal or greater standing to the One. He has taken on characteristics we associate with the One in order to take that role for himself, not with reloading the Matrix in mind but rather to take what glory he feels is deserved to him. For this notice not simply how the humans reveared neo but also how Rama-Kandra seemed to have deep admiration for Neo as well. I'm sure he is not the only program that felt this way. Just look at when the Oracle told Neo "for what it's worth, you made a believer out of me." If we recall that Seraph protects "that which matters most" (the Oracle) and that very program has an admiration toward Neo, other programs no doubt would follow suit. That could be seen as power. Something we learned in Reloaded (and was reiterated in Revolutions) that the Merovingian covets. And why did the Satan the Devil betray God? Due to his covetousness of God's glory. Thus the Merovingian could be seen as the true Devil (moreso than Cypher) in this story. But Neo was not here to do away with him... yet.
Remember that we see once more from Neo's pont of view as his body is taken way by some large machine. In fact, from Neo's POV not from his body but observing his body. And the Oracle did say she believed they'd see him again. I'm sure this'll be expounded on eventually in the online game.
Last edited by RocShemp; 04-12-04 at 10:39 PM.
#38
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by beefjerky
So no, the matrix was never "upgraded" after each appearance of the One. It was reloaded after each version of the One in order to keep it in, what the Architect thought was, a static, working state. This is the third matrix. The Architect never tried to make this third version of the matrix "more perfect." It was designed with human imperfection because that was the only way that it worked. The only times the matrix was changed was after the first and second matrix, and after the third matrix.
So no, the matrix was never "upgraded" after each appearance of the One. It was reloaded after each version of the One in order to keep it in, what the Architect thought was, a static, working state. This is the third matrix. The Architect never tried to make this third version of the matrix "more perfect." It was designed with human imperfection because that was the only way that it worked. The only times the matrix was changed was after the first and second matrix, and after the third matrix.
#39
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally posted by RocShemp
It's because Seraph was an Exile. Part of the function of the Agents, as revealed in Reloaded, is, in addition to dealing with rogue humans hacking in and out of the Matrix, to round up and delete all Exiles hiding within the Matrix. Exiles like the Merovingian who was basically running a huge smuggling ring as revealed in Revolutions. Note that in the club the Merovingian says of Seraph "the Prodigal Son returnes" and later calls him "my little Judas". I took this to mean that Seraph came to the Matrix as the Merovingian's right hand mand and eventually chose to betray him and side with the Oracle. So, regardless of his bodyguard function, he was still an Exile and seen by the Agents as someone who needed deleting. Thus, when Smith said "I remember hunting you is like chasing a ghost" is in reference to when Smith was stil an Agent of the Matrix, prior to his defeat at the hands of Neo in the end of the first movie.
It's because Seraph was an Exile. Part of the function of the Agents, as revealed in Reloaded, is, in addition to dealing with rogue humans hacking in and out of the Matrix, to round up and delete all Exiles hiding within the Matrix. Exiles like the Merovingian who was basically running a huge smuggling ring as revealed in Revolutions. Note that in the club the Merovingian says of Seraph "the Prodigal Son returnes" and later calls him "my little Judas". I took this to mean that Seraph came to the Matrix as the Merovingian's right hand mand and eventually chose to betray him and side with the Oracle. So, regardless of his bodyguard function, he was still an Exile and seen by the Agents as someone who needed deleting. Thus, when Smith said "I remember hunting you is like chasing a ghost" is in reference to when Smith was stil an Agent of the Matrix, prior to his defeat at the hands of Neo in the end of the first movie.
The Merovinginan even says mockingly, "Did you come for the bounty?" I would've liked to have seen some more background on the Seraph/Smith feud and Seraph/Merovingian relationship.
#40
DVD Talk Hero
I know what you mean, TheNightFlier. I was actually disappointed that they didn't have them fight for a bit before getting to Smith and the Oracle's conversation. Another Animatrix maybe? Or perhaps they might choose to do an anthology of short live action films?
Last edited by RocShemp; 04-12-04 at 10:11 PM.
#41
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally posted by RocShemp
I know what you mean, TheNightFlier. I was actually disappointed that they didn't have them fight for a bit before getting to Smith and the Oracle's conversation. Another Animatrix maybe? Or perhaps they might choose to do an anthology of short live action films?
I know what you mean, TheNightFlier. I was actually disappointed that they didn't have them fight for a bit before getting to Smith and the Oracle's conversation. Another Animatrix maybe? Or perhaps they might choose to do an anthology of short live action films?
As you said maybe it'll be elaborated on in the game or another Animatrix covering Seraph's story. Hell I wouldn't mind if they took the BMW Films approach and just put out shorts on some of the characters. There was wayyyy too much left unresolved.
I'm still betting they're not done making Matrix movies....WB is going to get hungry for money sooner or later...
#42
DVD Talk Hero
TheNightFlier,
Great idea. A BMW films approach would be sweet. And yes, not having Seraph fight Smith was a letdown.
To be honest, I've felt another film would still be made when it was announced that Reloaded and Revolutions were one film split in two. Then again, it was later stated that they were just filmed simultaneously but I still have my doubts. There has to be at least one more after the game.
Great idea. A BMW films approach would be sweet. And yes, not having Seraph fight Smith was a letdown.
To be honest, I've felt another film would still be made when it was announced that Reloaded and Revolutions were one film split in two. Then again, it was later stated that they were just filmed simultaneously but I still have my doubts. There has to be at least one more after the game.
#43
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Originally posted by RocShemp
But isn't the point of disseminating the One's code into the Matrix to make sure that the next reload lasts longer than the one before? To accomplish that changes (even if only subtle ones) would have to be made based on the One's experiences. If it's just a simple reboot of sorts, it makes no sense for the Architect to call it a "version" at all. There would have to be a variation of the Matrix code (an upgrade) in order for it to be a new version.
But isn't the point of disseminating the One's code into the Matrix to make sure that the next reload lasts longer than the one before? To accomplish that changes (even if only subtle ones) would have to be made based on the One's experiences. If it's just a simple reboot of sorts, it makes no sense for the Architect to call it a "version" at all. There would have to be a variation of the Matrix code (an upgrade) in order for it to be a new version.
As for the Merovingian, there is no doubt that he plays the role of the devil in the matrix world. The name Merovigian, as RocShemp said, conjures up the Merovingians, the bloodline that believed they were direct descendants of Christ. So obviously the Merovingian is a program of great power, but what's more important is that by Biblical standards, the Merovingians are a false bloodline. They couldn't have been descendants of Christ, so automatically they are the opposites of the divine, false prophets so to speak. The Merovingian's a cynical bastard, and he's extremely full of himself much like the devil would be. He was obviously cast out of heaven, and exiled into the matrix. While he has made a lavish life for himself in the matrix, he remains bitter and covetous of god's power. He's is in direct opposition to the will of god, and he's out to ruin anything that has to do with the Oracle, whether it be her plans or her child. The Oracle wants to bring about the enlightenment of both man and machine, but the Merovingian tries to stop her by keeping the Keymaker and (once Neo got himself into Mobil) by imprisoning Neo.
In one of the important scenes involving the Merovingian, we see Trinity, the other half of Neo, descend into Hel to bring Neo out of his death, or imprisonment. From the Cerberus-like three bouncers that guard the gates of Hel, to the demonic atmosphere of the party, there is no doubt that Club Hel is hell. The Merovingian tries to make a deal with the group. He will hand over Neo if they can get him the eyes of the Oracle. The Merovingian wants the power, the essence of god all for himself, and he is asking Morpheus, Seraph, and Trinity to directly rebel against god. Trinity reacts much like Christ would in front of the devil, in that Christ does not bargain with the devil.
We learn that the Merovingian has wanted the eyes of the Oracle ever since he came to the matrix, and the fact that he was brash enough to try to delete her says a lot of his agenda and character. If he can't have god's power, then no one can.
Last edited by beefjerky; 04-12-04 at 10:51 PM.
#44
DVD Talk Hero
Remember, the 2nd film isn't called "The Matrix Rebooted", but instead "The Matrix Reloaded". That's a subtle difference. Everytime the One chooses the door on the left (in order to save humanity, and have its code re-inserted in the Matrix, and thus, creates a new iteration of the Matrix code itself), the Matrix is upgraded.
Actually, the Architect goes through with the iterations because he's playing a perverse game of "Whack-the-One" with each time the One anomaly manifests itself inside the Matrix. You could almost consider the Architect as "Elmer Fudd" and the One as "Bugs Bunny" if you like to think in terms of Looney Tune cartoons.
"Be vewwy vewwy qwy-ut, I'm hunting duh One...huh huh huhhuhhuhhuh"
Actually, the Architect goes through with the iterations because he's playing a perverse game of "Whack-the-One" with each time the One anomaly manifests itself inside the Matrix. You could almost consider the Architect as "Elmer Fudd" and the One as "Bugs Bunny" if you like to think in terms of Looney Tune cartoons.
"Be vewwy vewwy qwy-ut, I'm hunting duh One...huh huh huhhuhhuhhuh"
#45
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by Patman
Remember, the 2nd film isn't called "The Matrix Rebooted", but instead "The Matrix Reloaded". That's a subtle difference. Everytime the One chooses the door on the left (in order to save humanity, and have its code re-inserted in the Matrix, and thus, creates a new iteration of the Matrix code itself), the Matrix is upgraded.
Actually, the Architect goes through with the iterations because he's playing a perverse game of "Whack-the-One" with each time the One anomaly manifests itself inside the Matrix. You could almost consider the Architect as "Elmer Fudd" and the One as "Bugs Bunny" if you like to think in terms of Looney Tune cartoons.
"Be vewwy vewwy qwy-ut, I'm hunting duh One...huh huh huhhuhhuhhuh"
Remember, the 2nd film isn't called "The Matrix Rebooted", but instead "The Matrix Reloaded". That's a subtle difference. Everytime the One chooses the door on the left (in order to save humanity, and have its code re-inserted in the Matrix, and thus, creates a new iteration of the Matrix code itself), the Matrix is upgraded.
Actually, the Architect goes through with the iterations because he's playing a perverse game of "Whack-the-One" with each time the One anomaly manifests itself inside the Matrix. You could almost consider the Architect as "Elmer Fudd" and the One as "Bugs Bunny" if you like to think in terms of Looney Tune cartoons.
"Be vewwy vewwy qwy-ut, I'm hunting duh One...huh huh huhhuhhuhhuh"
And I suppose we could see the Merovingian as Daffy Duck?
#46
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Originally posted by Patman
Remember, the 2nd film isn't called "The Matrix Rebooted", but instead "The Matrix Reloaded". That's a subtle difference. Everytime the One chooses the door on the left (in order to save humanity, and have its code re-inserted in the Matrix, and thus, creates a new iteration of the Matrix code itself), the Matrix is upgraded.
Remember, the 2nd film isn't called "The Matrix Rebooted", but instead "The Matrix Reloaded". That's a subtle difference. Everytime the One chooses the door on the left (in order to save humanity, and have its code re-inserted in the Matrix, and thus, creates a new iteration of the Matrix code itself), the Matrix is upgraded.
It's not the matrix that grows or is upgraded in this situation, but humanity itself. The one is the manifestation of the growth of humanity, the ability for humans to choose and to live and to die and to grow. With each reload, humanity grows a little bit, and in turn, so does the One. Again, the Architect isn't aware and can't understand this growth, but the Oracle can. It was most likely her plan to bring machines and man together by creating the third version of the matrix, under the pretense that it will keep the matrix stable and running. It's still the same version of the matrix. The anomaly is not a means to upgrade each version of the matrix. Remember, the most that the Architect can do is exert some measure of control over it, not use it.
#47
Banned by request
Here's something I was trying to figure out. Why doesn't Neo have power in the subway station? It's not built by the Architect but it IS part of the Matrix.
Personally, I felt Neo's powers were always ill-defined. In the original, Morpheus says he can reshape the Matrix as he sees fit. That would mean a lot more than flying and flying really fast and fighting really well. Instead of Neo being in the mountains and then flying back to the freeway, he should have just been able to blink and be at the freeway. He also should never have gotten tired, or hurt. I thought it was completely hokey when he blocks the blade and then bleeds. I mean, if he literally could change the code of the Matrix in any way he saw fit, he shouldn't have to fight anyone. He should be able to think about erasing someone and then they would be erased.
Ah, well.
Personally, I felt Neo's powers were always ill-defined. In the original, Morpheus says he can reshape the Matrix as he sees fit. That would mean a lot more than flying and flying really fast and fighting really well. Instead of Neo being in the mountains and then flying back to the freeway, he should have just been able to blink and be at the freeway. He also should never have gotten tired, or hurt. I thought it was completely hokey when he blocks the blade and then bleeds. I mean, if he literally could change the code of the Matrix in any way he saw fit, he shouldn't have to fight anyone. He should be able to think about erasing someone and then they would be erased.
Ah, well.
#48
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^^
you're probably right, but that wouldnt be as fun.
ok, another question:
What does the Merovingian mean when he says "this is only a game"?
thanks for your answers. i think i'm getting close to understanding the anomaly stuff:
the One was partially created by the machines as a measure of control. instead of lots of people having choice, they gave it all to One man(?). now this would threaten the Matrix bc the One could change things, destroy things, and bring down the whole Matrix, where the machines get their power. they would just have to reload it every now and then and attack Zion to make the One choose to save it, leaving the matrix. his code would be disseminated to give others choice again. but Neo chose differently, to go back into the matrix, and the machines then needed him, bc he had ultimate free will in the matrix, to fight Smith. etc.
sound good?
you're probably right, but that wouldnt be as fun.
ok, another question:
What does the Merovingian mean when he says "this is only a game"?
thanks for your answers. i think i'm getting close to understanding the anomaly stuff:
the One was partially created by the machines as a measure of control. instead of lots of people having choice, they gave it all to One man(?). now this would threaten the Matrix bc the One could change things, destroy things, and bring down the whole Matrix, where the machines get their power. they would just have to reload it every now and then and attack Zion to make the One choose to save it, leaving the matrix. his code would be disseminated to give others choice again. but Neo chose differently, to go back into the matrix, and the machines then needed him, bc he had ultimate free will in the matrix, to fight Smith. etc.
sound good?
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Originally posted by TCG
What does the Merovingian mean when he says "this is only a game"?
the One was partially created by the machines as a measure of control. instead of lots of people having choice, they gave it all to One man(?). now this would threaten the Matrix bc the One could change things, destroy things, and bring down the whole Matrix, where the machines get their power. they would just have to reload it every now and then and attack Zion to make the One choose to save it, leaving the matrix. his code would be disseminated to give others choice again. but Neo chose differently, to go back into the matrix, and the machines then needed him, bc he had ultimate free will in the matrix, to fight Smith. etc.
What does the Merovingian mean when he says "this is only a game"?
the One was partially created by the machines as a measure of control. instead of lots of people having choice, they gave it all to One man(?). now this would threaten the Matrix bc the One could change things, destroy things, and bring down the whole Matrix, where the machines get their power. they would just have to reload it every now and then and attack Zion to make the One choose to save it, leaving the matrix. his code would be disseminated to give others choice again. but Neo chose differently, to go back into the matrix, and the machines then needed him, bc he had ultimate free will in the matrix, to fight Smith. etc.
I think the Oracle knew what would happen if choice was given to the humans. Either way, even if she didn't know, she still gave birth the anomaly. It was not "created" as a measure of control. The most the machines can do is manipulate the anomaly to do what the machines want, thereby exerting some level of control over it. All humans have a choice, and they're not "giving" it to the One. The One is the result of humans having choice, in a way, a representation of the free will and growth of humans.
Not only will the One create problems in the matrix, the 0.1% of the people who reject the matrix will increase in number, also threatening the matrix. To prevent a potential system crash, everytime the One shows up, he is manipulated to go to the Source, where he will choose to have his anomaly code removed from his body, and the prime code of the matrix reinserted, making him normal again. He then has to choose 23 individuals to rebuild the now destroyed Zion. After that, the matrix is reloaded to keep it's timeline near 1999.
#50
Banned by request
Originally posted by TCG
^^
you're probably right, but that wouldnt be as fun.
^^
you're probably right, but that wouldnt be as fun.
Barring that, I still don't know why Neo had NO power in the train station.