Gibson to delete scene in 'The Passion of The Christ'
#76
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
My feeling is, if Mel makes a movie with the sole intent being to prove that the Catholic Church and Vatican II are wrong and that Jews really are Christ-killers, then that is an act of anti-Semitism. Arguably one of the single worst ones of the past 40 years.
#77
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Originally posted by Peep
My feeling is, if Mel makes a movie with the sole intent being to prove that the Catholic Church and Vatican II are wrong and that Jews really are Christ-killers, then that is an act of anti-Semitism. Arguably one of the single worst ones of the past 40 years.
My feeling is, if Mel makes a movie with the sole intent being to prove that the Catholic Church and Vatican II are wrong and that Jews really are Christ-killers, then that is an act of anti-Semitism. Arguably one of the single worst ones of the past 40 years.
#78
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
syphon00's post is idiotic!! Simple as that!!!
syphon00's post is idiotic!! Simple as that!!!
I read the article that was posted very carefully and I think that it does not support the claims that Mel is fueling anti-Semitism!!!
Your comment about Mel's "effect" on viewers is as derogatory and insulting as Syphon's comment. It is false and seeks to imply “fault”. Could you care to elaborate what exactly "there" denotes? The context in which you place “there” has a very unique connotation by implying that Mel has committed an erroneous act. And how are you any different than those that you are criticizing by placing judgment on a film that is anything but "anti-Semitic"???
(Please inderstand that I am not trying to disregard your opinion but rather understand where are you coming from )
(Please inderstand that I am not trying to disregard your opinion but rather understand where are you coming from )
I did not say it would have an effect on anyone. I merely said it would not have an effect on syphon00 because he already seems to be in anti-Semitic territory ("there"). In other words, if such an effect were to occur with some people (and it very well may not), syphon00 was not in need of any stimulus. I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment in a way I did not intend but I intended it as a comment only regarding syphon00 and not regarding Mel.
None of the article that is posted uses actual facts to relate the massage of the film with the repeated notion of anti-Semitism. Prove me wrong!! It is all based on past preconceptions about the possible role of the Jews in the death of Christ reflected though the prism of improvable personal experience (nothing wrong with that). However such preliminary judgment results in nothing but cheap sensationalism that fuels negative emotions between those with strong religious beliefs.
Even if (I repeat IF) the film creates some tension between the more sensitive of us Mel has every right to create and present a film about his vision of the story about Christ... .
I certainly do think Foxman's speech does not portray some raving nutjob like I think some have tried to paint him here.
#79
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Originally posted by RyoHazuki
So if he does believe that the Jews there called for Jesus' death then he is anti-semetic?
So if he does believe that the Jews there called for Jesus' death then he is anti-semetic?
Initial interviews with Mel indicated that he felt that Jews, as a race, should continue to be accountable for this past crime and that his movie would help to make that happen. That's the Jew-hating part. That's the part where he is trying to re-ignite anti-Semitism.
And I'm at a loss to see why people continue to be confused by this! Nobody's saying that some Jews weren't involved with Christ's death. I just think that today's Jews don't want to be stained with his blood all over again.
And, as much as Mel seems to be back-pedaling on his original intent and claiming that his was never purposely trying to make Jews the villains, it's pretty obvious (by the outpouring of concern from people of all faiths) that a movie that is pretending to be a simple retelling of truth with no ulterior motives should at least try to be more sensitive in the way it portrays the various participants.
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Originally posted by Peep
Initial interviews with Mel indicated that he felt that Jews, as a race, should continue to be accountable for this past crime and that his movie would help to make that happen. That's the Jew-hating part. That's the part where he is trying to re-ignite anti-Semitism.
Initial interviews with Mel indicated that he felt that Jews, as a race, should continue to be accountable for this past crime and that his movie would help to make that happen. That's the Jew-hating part. That's the part where he is trying to re-ignite anti-Semitism.
If you could prove this to be true then Mel's faith and the team he has created this film with obviously intended the anti-Semitism you indicate.
If you could prove that the above accusations are indeed facts that came out of Mel's mouth, then Foxman and the Rabbi that spoke yesterday afternoon (Eastern time) on ESPN are ALL WRONG as they claimed that Mel's intent and the message of the movie are NOT Anti-Semitic!!
#81
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to see you post the exact quote from these "initial reviews" where Mel Gibson concedes that the "Jews as a race should be held accountable for this past crime" and that his movie was intended to "make that happen".
I would like to see you post the exact quote from these "initial reviews" where Mel Gibson concedes that the "Jews as a race should be held accountable for this past crime" and that his movie was intended to "make that happen".
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Originally posted by movielib
Foxman says: "Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? No... Is the film anti-Semitic? No." What scares Foxman: "But its consequences, its impact, its message may fuel anti-Semitism." I believe this is a viable fear for some given the history of persecution of their people and given such things as the Oberammergau Passion Play (which I believe has been softened in more recent years). I never said I agree with that fear (in fact I pretty much don't because I think almost anyone who will take Mel's movie as an indictment of "the Jews" is already anti-Semitic to begin with).
[/i]
Foxman says: "Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? No... Is the film anti-Semitic? No." What scares Foxman: "But its consequences, its impact, its message may fuel anti-Semitism." I believe this is a viable fear for some given the history of persecution of their people and given such things as the Oberammergau Passion Play (which I believe has been softened in more recent years). I never said I agree with that fear (in fact I pretty much don't because I think almost anyone who will take Mel's movie as an indictment of "the Jews" is already anti-Semitic to begin with).
[/i]
Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 02-12-04 at 08:17 PM.
#83
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Originally posted by movielib
I did not say it would have an effect on anyone. I merely said it would not have an effect on syphon00 because he already seems to be in anti-Semitic territory ("there"). In other words, if such an effect were to occur with some people (and it very well may not), syphon00 was not in need of any stimulus. I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment in a way I did not intend but I intended it as a comment only regarding syphon00 and not regarding Mel.
I did not say it would have an effect on anyone. I merely said it would not have an effect on syphon00 because he already seems to be in anti-Semitic territory ("there"). In other words, if such an effect were to occur with some people (and it very well may not), syphon00 was not in need of any stimulus. I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment in a way I did not intend but I intended it as a comment only regarding syphon00 and not regarding Mel.
"there" in the context of Syphon's comment and was not directed towards Mel.
Makes sense. I agree!!
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The Jews are not responsible for the death of Jesus. The point most people are missing is that the only person responsible for the death of Jesus is Jesus himself. Jesus chose to die out of love and mercy. It was part of God's plan. Anyone who knows the bible, should know this. Hatred of the Jews or blaming the Jews is ignorance.
John 10:17-18
17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
John 10:17-18
17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
#85
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I read the article that was posted very carefully and I think that it does not support the claims that Mel is fueling anti-Semitism!!!
I read the article that was posted very carefully and I think that it does not support the claims that Mel is fueling anti-Semitism!!!
Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Disagreement with an artist and his message (as I have already posted it twice) DOES NOT equate anti-Semitism. Though it is quite convenient for many to justify unsubstantiated "criticism" by quoting anti-Semitism.
Disagreement with an artist and his message (as I have already posted it twice) DOES NOT equate anti-Semitism. Though it is quite convenient for many to justify unsubstantiated "criticism" by quoting anti-Semitism.
Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
None of the article that is posted uses actual facts to relate the massage of the film with the repeated notion of anti-Semitism. Prove me wrong!! It is all based on past preconceptions about the possible role of the Jews in the death of Christ reflected though the prism of improvable personal experience (nothing wrong with that). However such preliminary judgment results in nothing but cheap sensationalism that fuels negative emotions between those with strong religious beliefs.
None of the article that is posted uses actual facts to relate the massage of the film with the repeated notion of anti-Semitism. Prove me wrong!! It is all based on past preconceptions about the possible role of the Jews in the death of Christ reflected though the prism of improvable personal experience (nothing wrong with that). However such preliminary judgment results in nothing but cheap sensationalism that fuels negative emotions between those with strong religious beliefs.
Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Even if (I repeat IF) the film creates some tension between the more sensitive of us Mel has every right to create and present a film about his vision of the story about Christ. Just as Foxman has delivered his point of view on an event no one is certain to know the details for.
Even if (I repeat IF) the film creates some tension between the more sensitive of us Mel has every right to create and present a film about his vision of the story about Christ. Just as Foxman has delivered his point of view on an event no one is certain to know the details for.
As I have stated before, this movie will not convert anyone into an anti-semite any more than it will convince someone who hates Jews that they should love them. But what it can do (if it is not put forth with caution and care) is incite the growing anti-semitism that is already out there, this is the concern and this is the worry. And in the end it may do nothing, but no matter what happens, I can understand what the 'worry' and 'concern' is about.
One last note, some people have stated that they feel sorry for Mel. I also feel sorry for him, I do know if he fully grasped the complexity of doing such a film. He was raised to believe something based on his father's views, now everyone is pointing fingers at his beliefs and his father. What a terrible postion to be in, the psychodynamics behind this are quite extraordinary indeed.
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Would a message by him, a simple statement which used his own words in a postscript shown at the end of the film make a difference? I believe so, because those of us who sat and saw the impact on the audience, I believe that 30 seconds where he would come on and say, "My name is Mel Gibson. This is a film of love. This is a passion of love. I've been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this and I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind and all mankind has a responsibility and a guilt for his suffering," and then take a breath and say, "But there are those out there who would blame the Jews as they have in history. Don't do that, for that would convert this passion of love to a passion of hate." I believe that would make a difference.
#87
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"My name is Mel Gibson. This is a film of love. This is a passion of love. I've been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this and I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind and all mankind has a responsibility and a guilt for his suffering," and then take a breath and say, "But there are those out there who would blame the Jews as they have in history. Don't do that, for that would convert this passion of love to a passion of hate." I believe that would make a difference.
"Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such quasi-religious fare as 'Naughty Noah's Ark', 'Thirty Nights of Sodom', and 'The Erotic Adventures of Ezekiel'. Now this is a film of love..."
#88
Banned
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.
Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.
Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
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If I'm correct in my interpretation of the movie's tone, I just can't see how any kind of "disclaimer" before or after the movie can fit with the feel of the movie - it would kind of "breaking the mood" and "throwing you out of the movie" if one was included.
A disclaimer like that IS kind of insulting to the audience, is it not?
"Hey, audience - just in case you're an idiot, here's a disclaimer : don't hate Jews because of a story."
You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
A disclaimer like that IS kind of insulting to the audience, is it not?
"Hey, audience - just in case you're an idiot, here's a disclaimer : don't hate Jews because of a story."
You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
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Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.
Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.
Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
#91
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Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
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Originally posted by reapersaurus
You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
#93
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
#94
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I just reviewed the last chapters of John (18-21), and it seems like Mr. Gibson was pretty faithful to the source material. The individuals in this gospel who come across as wanting Jesus dead are the Jews, and I can see how people might fear this would fuel anti-Semitism.
However...
...for someone to read the Bible and take something like that away from it would indicate that they are not looking to find any truth, but more or less trying to find an excuse to be anti-semitic, similar to what Hitler did. Basically, I don't see this how this would fuel any hate or even add to what might already be there. For someone to take this and use it as an excuse to be mean to a race of people would totally betray the reasoning behind the making of the movie.
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
However...
...for someone to read the Bible and take something like that away from it would indicate that they are not looking to find any truth, but more or less trying to find an excuse to be anti-semitic, similar to what Hitler did. Basically, I don't see this how this would fuel any hate or even add to what might already be there. For someone to take this and use it as an excuse to be mean to a race of people would totally betray the reasoning behind the making of the movie.
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
It is the "assuming that Gibson is faithful to the gospels" part that has many people worried (based on Mel's highly publicized religious views).
I also hope there are enough rational people in this world that "such a travesty would not occur", although history is not on our side and the cynic in me seriously questions this.
#96
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Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
#97
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
That name is unfamiliar to me. Any site with info on her?
When you think about it, one could argue that in a perfect, rational, world there would be no need to worry about anti-semitism from this kind of movie. Unfortunately, that is not the kind of world in which we live.
What's both interesting and sad is the fact that many churches around my area are encouraging people to view this movie in groups. While I admire them for supporting Gibson's film, the kind of people who do this include Bible thumpers who authentically believe the Jewish religion is null and void and would have no problem with the movie portraying them in the alleged light if does.
What many fail to realize is that Christ died for the sins of mankind, and the Jews in both the Bible and the movie are meant to represent the people of the world. The conclusion can be drawn that everyone is sinful, and the Jews are no exception. The problem lies within the fact that the wrong people could interpret it as "everyone is sinful...especially the Jews!" While history has proven this to happen, it also proves that the kind of people who do such are NEVER the kind that history holds in high regard. Let us hope people have learned from history.
Last edited by Dr. DVD; 02-16-04 at 09:40 AM.
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#99
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
#100
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
Unless you have some source you wish to link to....