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Gibson to delete scene in 'The Passion of The Christ'

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Gibson to delete scene in 'The Passion of The Christ'

Old 02-12-04, 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
If you read the previous topic in this movie, you would have seen references to comments that Mel and his team made about "setting the record straight" about who was responsible for Christ's death.

My feeling is, if Mel makes a movie with the sole intent being to prove that the Catholic Church and Vatican II are wrong and that Jews really are Christ-killers, then that is an act of anti-Semitism. Arguably one of the single worst ones of the past 40 years.
Old 02-12-04, 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by Peep
My feeling is, if Mel makes a movie with the sole intent being to prove that the Catholic Church and Vatican II are wrong and that Jews really are Christ-killers, then that is an act of anti-Semitism. Arguably one of the single worst ones of the past 40 years.
So if he does believe that the Jews there called for Jesus' death then he is anti-semetic?
Old 02-12-04, 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
syphon00's post is idiotic!! Simple as that!!!
No disagreement there.
I read the article that was posted very carefully and I think that it does not support the claims that Mel is fueling anti-Semitism!!!
Foxman says: "Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? No... Is the film anti-Semitic? No." What scares Foxman: "But its consequences, its impact, its message may fuel anti-Semitism." I believe this is a viable fear for some given the history of persecution of their people and given such things as the Oberammergau Passion Play (which I believe has been softened in more recent years). I never said I agree with that fear (in fact I pretty much don't because I think almost anyone who will take Mel's movie as an indictment of "the Jews" is already anti-Semitic to begin with).
Your comment about Mel's "effect" on viewers is as derogatory and insulting as Syphon's comment. It is false and seeks to imply “fault”. Could you care to elaborate what exactly "there" denotes? The context in which you place “there” has a very unique connotation by implying that Mel has committed an erroneous act. And how are you any different than those that you are criticizing by placing judgment on a film that is anything but "anti-Semitic"???
(Please inderstand that I am not trying to disregard your opinion but rather understand where are you coming from )
I'm stunned because I did not intend any of your interpretation of what I said.

I did not say it would have an effect on anyone. I merely said it would not have an effect on syphon00 because he already seems to be in anti-Semitic territory ("there"). In other words, if such an effect were to occur with some people (and it very well may not), syphon00 was not in need of any stimulus. I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment in a way I did not intend but I intended it as a comment only regarding syphon00 and not regarding Mel.
None of the article that is posted uses actual facts to relate the massage of the film with the repeated notion of anti-Semitism. Prove me wrong!! It is all based on past preconceptions about the possible role of the Jews in the death of Christ reflected though the prism of improvable personal experience (nothing wrong with that). However such preliminary judgment results in nothing but cheap sensationalism that fuels negative emotions between those with strong religious beliefs.
Foxman said the film was not anti-Semitic.
Even if (I repeat IF) the film creates some tension between the more sensitive of us Mel has every right to create and present a film about his vision of the story about Christ... .
Did I or Foxman say anything different? Foxman: "...we knew that Mel Gibson was planning to make a movie with an agenda. He's entitled. He's entitled to do a film or write a book or do whatever he wants based on his vision, based on his interpretation, based on his view."

I certainly do think Foxman's speech does not portray some raving nutjob like I think some have tried to paint him here.
Old 02-12-04, 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by RyoHazuki
So if he does believe that the Jews there called for Jesus' death then he is anti-semetic?
Mel's problems with the Catholic Church seem to stem from the fact that he is upset that they reversed what their take was on the Crucifixion. Vatican II did not say that Jews were not involved in the Crucifixion. It said that they should not continue to be held accountable as a race for the actions of a few back then.

Initial interviews with Mel indicated that he felt that Jews, as a race, should continue to be accountable for this past crime and that his movie would help to make that happen. That's the Jew-hating part. That's the part where he is trying to re-ignite anti-Semitism.

And I'm at a loss to see why people continue to be confused by this! Nobody's saying that some Jews weren't involved with Christ's death. I just think that today's Jews don't want to be stained with his blood all over again.

And, as much as Mel seems to be back-pedaling on his original intent and claiming that his was never purposely trying to make Jews the villains, it's pretty obvious (by the outpouring of concern from people of all faiths) that a movie that is pretending to be a simple retelling of truth with no ulterior motives should at least try to be more sensitive in the way it portrays the various participants.
Old 02-12-04, 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by Peep

Initial interviews with Mel indicated that he felt that Jews, as a race, should continue to be accountable for this past crime and that his movie would help to make that happen. That's the Jew-hating part. That's the part where he is trying to re-ignite anti-Semitism.
I would like to see you post the exact quote from these "initial reviews" where Mel Gibson concedes that the "Jews as a race should be held accountable for this past crime" and that his movie was intended to "make that happen".

If you could prove this to be true then Mel's faith and the team he has created this film with obviously intended the anti-Semitism you indicate.

If you could prove that the above accusations are indeed facts that came out of Mel's mouth, then Foxman and the Rabbi that spoke yesterday afternoon (Eastern time) on ESPN are ALL WRONG as they claimed that Mel's intent and the message of the movie are NOT Anti-Semitic!!
Old 02-12-04, 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to see you post the exact quote from these "initial reviews" where Mel Gibson concedes that the "Jews as a race should be held accountable for this past crime" and that his movie was intended to "make that happen".
I would like to see this as well.
Old 02-12-04, 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by movielib

Foxman says: "Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? No... Is the film anti-Semitic? No." What scares Foxman: "But its consequences, its impact, its message may fuel anti-Semitism." I believe this is a viable fear for some given the history of persecution of their people and given such things as the Oberammergau Passion Play (which I believe has been softened in more recent years). I never said I agree with that fear (in fact I pretty much don't because I think almost anyone who will take Mel's movie as an indictment of "the Jews" is already anti-Semitic to begin with).
[/i]
I think that both you and I concur that accusing someone of a serious race prejudice that could instigate hate crimes based on the premise of an assumption is illogical. The law in this country does NOT promote judgment based on anticipation, it deals with facts. As such, I agree with Foxman that Mel is not an anti-Semite.


Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 02-12-04 at 08:17 PM.
Old 02-12-04, 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by movielib

I did not say it would have an effect on anyone. I merely said it would not have an effect on syphon00 because he already seems to be in anti-Semitic territory ("there"). In other words, if such an effect were to occur with some people (and it very well may not), syphon00 was not in need of any stimulus. I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment in a way I did not intend but I intended it as a comment only regarding syphon00 and not regarding Mel.
Thank you!! This makes it very clear that the intent you had was to place
"there" in the context of Syphon's comment and was not directed towards Mel.

Makes sense. I agree!!
Old 02-12-04, 10:01 PM
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The Jews are not responsible for the death of Jesus. The point most people are missing is that the only person responsible for the death of Jesus is Jesus himself. Jesus chose to die out of love and mercy. It was part of God's plan. Anyone who knows the bible, should know this. Hatred of the Jews or blaming the Jews is ignorance.

John 10:17-18
17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
Old 02-12-04, 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I read the article that was posted very carefully and I think that it does not support the claims that Mel is fueling anti-Semitism!!!
You did not read the article as carefully as you think you did, since you missed the entire purpose of it. Foxman even goes so far as to say that Mel is not an anti-semite (at least knowingly or intentionally). But the end result of his film may spark an increase in anti-semitism, if not done with caution and care, this was the point...

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
I would like to read an article that attests that either Mel or a member of his crew aspired to create an “anti-Semitic” film. I have not seen one so far!!
You will not likely find one (and if you do it will probably be dissappointing and in error). This is once again because that is not what the debate is about. If Mel was a known anti-semite and made his thoughts known this 'controversy' would be simple and on the surface. It is the subverted (and probably unintentional) nature of this type of anti-semitism that worries many people, this is much more destructive than overt anti-semitism which is easy to identify and label.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Disagreement with an artist and his message (as I have already posted it twice) DOES NOT equate anti-Semitism. Though it is quite convenient for many to justify unsubstantiated "criticism" by quoting anti-Semitism.
You are right, and I have now posted numerous times, the concern and worry that is put forth by Jewish people and organizations is NOT about disagreeing with an artist and his message. It is about many things that I have already listed in previous posts. One of which is that Mel's message and artistic vision is claiming to purport something that it is not. This is the 'agenda' of which Foxman refers. Once again, it is not that Foxman disagrees with the messsage or doesn't belive he has a right to spread his message, it is that he selling what it is not.

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
None of the article that is posted uses actual facts to relate the massage of the film with the repeated notion of anti-Semitism. Prove me wrong!! It is all based on past preconceptions about the possible role of the Jews in the death of Christ reflected though the prism of improvable personal experience (nothing wrong with that). However such preliminary judgment results in nothing but cheap sensationalism that fuels negative emotions between those with strong religious beliefs.
Once again, the film's message is not meant to be anti-semitic and Foxman even states this. As to these "past preconceptions" that the 'controversy' is based on...perhaps this hasn't been clear enough before, it is based on past historical record. It is a fact that Passion plays throughout history have lead to increases in anti-semitism in the areas which they are presented. It is a fact that Hitler saw a Passion play and was deeply moved by it. It is a fact that anti-semitism is at a world wide height right now that we haven't seen in 40 years. It is a fact that Mel's brand of Catholicism does not agree with Vacitan II's absolution of the Jews. It is a fact that Mel has made numerous 'borderline icky' comments in the press, it is a fact that Mel used the text of a 17th century nun to help create the script (a fact that has many Christians upset), it is a fact that Mels' father has been quoted as denying the Holocaust, these are just a few of the 'facts' out there. Do any of these or all of these mean that Mels' movie is anti-semitic? NO. That is not the point, the point is that it is at least understandable why people may be concerned when a film like this is made, based on these facts. I am confused why people fail to get this point, whether we agree with what Foxman says or not (if you notice I have not said I agreed or disagreed, only that I understand).

Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
Even if (I repeat IF) the film creates some tension between the more sensitive of us Mel has every right to create and present a film about his vision of the story about Christ. Just as Foxman has delivered his point of view on an event no one is certain to know the details for.
Yes, I agree, Mel has this right and so does Foxman, once again the concern is that it is purporting to be something it is not.

As I have stated before, this movie will not convert anyone into an anti-semite any more than it will convince someone who hates Jews that they should love them. But what it can do (if it is not put forth with caution and care) is incite the growing anti-semitism that is already out there, this is the concern and this is the worry. And in the end it may do nothing, but no matter what happens, I can understand what the 'worry' and 'concern' is about.

One last note, some people have stated that they feel sorry for Mel. I also feel sorry for him, I do know if he fully grasped the complexity of doing such a film. He was raised to believe something based on his father's views, now everyone is pointing fingers at his beliefs and his father. What a terrible postion to be in, the psychodynamics behind this are quite extraordinary indeed.
Old 02-12-04, 11:29 PM
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Would a message by him, a simple statement which used his own words in a postscript shown at the end of the film make a difference? I believe so, because those of us who sat and saw the impact on the audience, I believe that 30 seconds where he would come on and say, "My name is Mel Gibson. This is a film of love. This is a passion of love. I've been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this and I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind and all mankind has a responsibility and a guilt for his suffering," and then take a breath and say, "But there are those out there who would blame the Jews as they have in history. Don't do that, for that would convert this passion of love to a passion of hate." I believe that would make a difference.
I think this is a great idea.
Old 02-13-04, 07:32 PM
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"My name is Mel Gibson. This is a film of love. This is a passion of love. I've been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this and I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind and all mankind has a responsibility and a guilt for his suffering," and then take a breath and say, "But there are those out there who would blame the Jews as they have in history. Don't do that, for that would convert this passion of love to a passion of hate." I believe that would make a difference.
This introduction would be a lot more effective if it started out with:
"Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such quasi-religious fare as 'Naughty Noah's Ark', 'Thirty Nights of Sodom', and 'The Erotic Adventures of Ezekiel'. Now this is a film of love..."
God I miss Phil Hartman.
Old 02-14-04, 07:52 PM
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EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.

Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.

Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
Old 02-14-04, 09:41 PM
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If I'm correct in my interpretation of the movie's tone, I just can't see how any kind of "disclaimer" before or after the movie can fit with the feel of the movie - it would kind of "breaking the mood" and "throwing you out of the movie" if one was included.
A disclaimer like that IS kind of insulting to the audience, is it not?

"Hey, audience - just in case you're an idiot, here's a disclaimer : don't hate Jews because of a story."

You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
Old 02-15-04, 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.

Gotta love it, Hollywood can turn out movies bashing people's beliefs every week, yet one movie causes them to ban Gibson.

Kinda sounds like McCarthyism...doesn't it?
Yes, because a person choosing not to work with another is so much the same as what went on in the 50s.
Old 02-15-04, 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
Knowing EW's level of journalism, this "studio exec" was probably an intern at New Line.
Old 02-15-04, 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by reapersaurus
You know what just struck me?
Have there been any disclaimers in movies which portrayed Nazi actions? Because don't you know - anyone who saw a film that showed the Nazis doing bad things might "inflame Anti-German sentiment."
Thank god someone brought this up, I mean after 2000 years of opression and hatred, its about time "Anti-German sentiment" has been exposed for whta it is. Nice analogy though...
Old 02-15-04, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Scot1458
EW has a piece on it today in which they quote "unamed" studio execs who say they will never work with Mel again.
What kind of idiot studio would rule out ever working with Mel again? Last time I checked, his movies do pretty well . . .
Old 02-15-04, 03:16 PM
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I just reviewed the last chapters of John (18-21), and it seems like Mr. Gibson was pretty faithful to the source material. The individuals in this gospel who come across as wanting Jesus dead are the Jews, and I can see how people might fear this would fuel anti-Semitism.

However...

...for someone to read the Bible and take something like that away from it would indicate that they are not looking to find any truth, but more or less trying to find an excuse to be anti-semitic, similar to what Hitler did. Basically, I don't see this how this would fuel any hate or even add to what might already be there. For someone to take this and use it as an excuse to be mean to a race of people would totally betray the reasoning behind the making of the movie.
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
Old 02-15-04, 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Bottomline: the only way this film could come across as anti-semitic, assuming that it is faithful to the gospels as Gibson claims, is for people to desire it to be such, which I would hope enough rational people exist in this modern world that such a travesty would not occur.
Nicely stated post (the fact that you can understand the concern puts you ahead of a lot of people).

It is the "assuming that Gibson is faithful to the gospels" part that has many people worried (based on Mel's highly publicized religious views).

I also hope there are enough rational people in this world that "such a travesty would not occur", although history is not on our side and the cynic in me seriously questions this.
Old 02-16-04, 06:03 AM
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Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
Old 02-16-04, 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).

That name is unfamiliar to me. Any site with info on her?


When you think about it, one could argue that in a perfect, rational, world there would be no need to worry about anti-semitism from this kind of movie. Unfortunately, that is not the kind of world in which we live.

What's both interesting and sad is the fact that many churches around my area are encouraging people to view this movie in groups. While I admire them for supporting Gibson's film, the kind of people who do this include Bible thumpers who authentically believe the Jewish religion is null and void and would have no problem with the movie portraying them in the alleged light if does.
What many fail to realize is that Christ died for the sins of mankind, and the Jews in both the Bible and the movie are meant to represent the people of the world. The conclusion can be drawn that everyone is sinful, and the Jews are no exception. The problem lies within the fact that the wrong people could interpret it as "everyone is sinful...especially the Jews!" While history has proven this to happen, it also proves that the kind of people who do such are NEVER the kind that history holds in high regard. Let us hope people have learned from history.

Last edited by Dr. DVD; 02-16-04 at 09:40 AM.
Old 02-17-04, 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
That name is unfamiliar to me. Any site with info on her?
..here you are... and here, too... and here, also...

. . . . . .

Last edited by Hendrik; 02-17-04 at 11:47 AM.
Old 02-17-04, 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
With part of the concern being that she was a notorious anti-Semite and her writings reflected it.
Old 02-17-04, 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
Bear in mind that this film is not based entirely on the Gospels. A lot of the content comes from the visions of a Catholic mystic (the Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich).
How in the hellfire do you know this. Gibson has admitted reading some of her stuff. That in no way says that he included ANY of it or was even influenced by it at all...Your conclusion is spinning the truth greatly.

Unless you have some source you wish to link to....

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