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Old 12-23-03, 08:39 PM   #1
Lara Means
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Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

Don't tell me its always been this way since birth!
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Old 12-23-03, 09:16 PM   #2
chess
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there was a reason, and i think i remember, but i'm too lazy to look it up.

did mom die in childbirth?
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Old 12-23-03, 10:54 PM   #3
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Re: Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Means
Don't tell me its always been this way since birth!
I could go into detail about this but it's late and I'm tired so I'll give you the gist and let others fill in the gaps.

Basically: Faramir likes and admires Gandalf. Boromir does not. Denethor hates Gandalf. Therefore, Denethor hates Faramir.

Also, Denethor doesn't like the plain and simple fact that Faramir became a Ranger and is more pacifist, more an 'intellectual' than Boromir was.
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Old 12-24-03, 09:18 AM   #4
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interesting tidbit:

The -mir ending of Faramir's name is almost certainly 'jewel' or 'precious thing', but Fara- is much more difficult to translate. The Elvish root far- means 'sufficient' or 'adequate', so it may be that the brothers Boromir and Faramir have names related to their father's attitude toward them. As Denethor's favourite son, Boromir was perhaps the 'faithful jewel', while the less favoured Faramir was merely the 'sufficient jewel'.
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Old 12-24-03, 07:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by chess
there was a reason, and i think i remember, but i'm too lazy to look it up.

did mom die in childbirth?
It's mentioned in Appendix A when the Stwards of Gondor are discussed. Faramir's birth did kill his mother and hence the animosity. That and Faramir's interest in art and music where Boromir was intested in the art of arms.
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Old 12-24-03, 10:09 PM   #6
chess
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neeb
It's mentioned in Appendix A when the Stwards of Gondor are discussed. Faramir's birth did kill his mother and hence the animosity. That and Faramir's interest in art and music where Boromir was intested in the art of arms.
thanks. i thought that was it...or at least part of it.
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Old 12-25-03, 01:29 AM   #7
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Re: Re: Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

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Originally posted by Rivero
I could go into detail about this but it's late and I'm tired so I'll give you the gist and let others fill in the gaps.

Basically: Faramir likes and admires Gandalf. Boromir does not. Denethor hates Gandalf. Therefore, Denethor hates Faramir.

Also, Denethor doesn't like the plain and simple fact that Faramir became a Ranger and is more pacifist, more an 'intellectual' than Boromir was.
Boy, NONE of that is explained in the movies. The movies make Faramir look earnest, but not quite competent in war (although perhaps the lack of men was his downfall). Certainly not enough to earn hatred, but I never quite understood why he was still a captain.
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Old 12-25-03, 10:28 AM   #8
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Re: Re: Re: Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

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Originally posted by Suprmallet
Boy, NONE of that is explained in the movies. The movies make Faramir look earnest, but not quite competent in war (although perhaps the lack of men was his downfall). Certainly not enough to earn hatred, but I never quite understood why he was still a captain.

Ahhhh but in the book Faramir is so much more than he is in the movie.

He's a really good character.
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Old 12-25-03, 10:50 AM   #9
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He's a great character in the book, but I also think his character is great in the films, and definitely more tragic. I initially didn't like the changes and thought they were useless, but since I've seen TTT:EE and ROTK, I've changed my mind.
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Old 12-25-03, 04:43 PM   #10
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

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Originally posted by Giantrobo
Ahhhh but in the book Faramir is so much more than he is in the movie.

He's a really good character.
That's what I'm saying! I think the movies didn't portray Faramir in the right light. Now that I know what I know about him, his character becomes far more sympathetic.
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Old 12-26-03, 09:14 PM   #11
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hope there's more of him in the exteneded version.
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Old 12-27-03, 10:15 PM   #12
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Re: Is there a reason why Denethor hates Faramir so much?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Means
Don't tell me its always been this way since birth!
Its always been this way...SINCE BIRTH!!!
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Old 12-27-03, 10:44 PM   #13
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I've never understood this Faramir worship. Faramir in the books is a "good" character but not a good character. He is without any real personality and is just noble. The films at least gave him some drama. People really need to get over that PJ altered some minor characters to infuse some drama into the story. When movies are made about real life people it's not unusual to combine minor players or later their characters slightly to make them work in the film better.
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Old 12-28-03, 12:25 AM   #14
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And at what point did Denethor go insane? I mean, was he already whacked-out when Gandalf and Pippin meet with him for the first time? Was he off his nut when we saw him in flashback in TTT:EE?

Did he lose a marble back when the -mir brothers' mother died all those years ago?

When did his screw go loose?
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Old 12-28-03, 12:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by caligulathegod
People really need to get over that PJ altered some minor characters to infuse some drama into the story.
I think most people have already, actually.
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Old 12-28-03, 02:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corvin
I think most people have already, actually.

I agree.
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Old 12-28-03, 10:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by jough
And at what point did Denethor go insane?
When did his screw go loose?
When he started using the Palantir. Sauron kept feeding him information and images that would cause Denethor to dispair and sap his will.
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Old 12-28-03, 10:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by covenant
When he started using the Palantir. Sauron kept feeding him information and images that would cause Denethor to dispair and sap his will.
And he had definitely been using the palantir a while - quite a bit before we meet him.

Note his lines in ROTK: "Do you think the eye of Gondor is blind? We know much Mithrandir.... " and then goes on to list some things he knew from his palantir.
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Old 12-28-03, 11:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corvin
I think most people have already, actually.
You haven't been to any Tolkien-centered boards lately, then.
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Old 12-28-03, 03:17 PM   #20
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So I guess a major question is: in the ROTK extended cut, will Denethor have a palantir or did they decide to just do away with it entirely and have only Saruman posessing one?
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Old 12-28-03, 05:57 PM   #21
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correction: i was wrong about faramir's birth causing his mother's death. his birth and her death are separated by 5 years in the appendices.
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Old 12-29-03, 02:51 PM   #22
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Okay, so we never see Denethor using the Palantir in the film, though, so that was a little confusing to me.
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Old 12-29-03, 03:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by jough
Okay, so we never see Denethor using the Palantir in the film, though, so that was a little confusing to me.
Hopefully this will be in the EE. It's really needed to flesh out his lines to Gandalf about not being blind and knowing who was riding with Theoden etc. as well as showing why he went insane. From the movies you'd get that it's just grief over losing his sons, which is a little far fetched IMO. Combining that with the corruption of Sauron through the palantir is much more believeable IMO.
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Old 12-30-03, 10:45 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
Hopefully this will be in the EE. It's really needed to flesh out his lines to Gandalf about not being blind and knowing who was riding with Theoden etc. as well as showing why he went insane. From the movies you'd get that it's just grief over losing his sons, which is a little far fetched IMO. Combining that with the corruption of Sauron through the palantir is much more believeable IMO.
i hated his character in the film...probably the thing that bothered me the most. there must be something missing, because he was two-dimensional to the point of absurdity.

he seemed like a decent guy with some issues in the book. in the movie he was wormtongue with power.
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