Tram

Why do the machines repopulate Zion over and over? Why not just totaly wipe them out?

Michael Corvin

This is what I have been saying. Everyone seems 100% sure he did this. But as I posted in another thread, Nirobes ship was only seconds behind the sentinels. They could have set off an EMP killing the sentinels. I believe Neo is and always has been part machine, and this could explain why he went down, the EMP. And went into the coma from this.

Neo is part machine and Smith is part human.

SirPablo

It's a Matrix in a Matrix!!!!!

How can a human being, flesh and blood, have powers in the "real" world" capable of stopping sentinels? Impossible.

How can a computer program, strings of binary numbers, have control over a human being who is NOT plugged into the Matrix? Impossible.

OBVIOUS answer is the matrix in a matrix theory.

Patman

You can't just unload an EMP and start your ship right back up. All electronic is disrupted when you fire up an EMP. No, my contention is that Neo can stop the sentinels because he can now manipulate the code (telepathically) that runs machines (i.e. sentinels) due to his interface with Smith at the schoolyard before their big Burly Brawl.

Smith is now a "free" agent, and has more capabilities, and it's the confluence of the fusion of man => machine (Neo) and machine => man (Smith in Bane's body now) that has caused a much larger problem for the 6th incarnation of the Matrix, but there's only 24 hours before the plug is pulled, and all of Zion is decimated.

This "free" agent Smith is what the Architect never counted on to happen, it could not have seen the new anomaly that is Smith that causes a viral-like attack inside the Matrix (with him downloading the Smith code into all those who are jacked into the Matrix), and gains more and more control over the Matrix, and now, he also has the ability to affect events outside the Matrix as a trojan horse named Bane.

This is why I don't believe it's a Matrix-within-a-Matrix scenario. Plus, as a story, it's lame to use $365 million on such a 3-part story when the 13th Floor has already been made.

thephantom

This wasn't Neo's first time in an EMP. He survived it quite well the first time around.

thephantom

When an agent takes over a persons body, the "code" in the brain is overwritten. This is why everyone in the Matrix is is technically "code". The people interact with the other programs fully, and the programs can interact right back. When Smith takes over a body, he BECOMES that person, their mind erased and replaced by his(and he does have a mind, he is sentient). The ONLY difference between Bane and the hundreds of others he's taken over if that Bane's body was later disconnected. But of course at that point, Bane's mind is long gone, replaced by Smith's.

The only real question is why didn't the operator in the ship see that something happend to Bane's mind? They already said that smith didn't look like other programs, he was encrypted or something.

jim_cook87

I prefer the Matrix-in-a-Matrix idea. The first movie stayed hardcore sci-fi by providing a logical framework for superpowers, it's not supernatural, it's not mystery, it's hacking/manipulating computer code. If it's not a MiaM we then have superpowers in the real world without a logical explanation, I don't like that shift in the Matrix universe, I like the fact it has been a neat and tidy universe...

And I think it's premature to declare MiaM as lame. It all depends on how they resolve things in Revolutions. MiaM has the potential for a lame resolution but I think it also has the potential for a stunning resolution...

Mittman

I doubt the ship set off an EMP beacuse Neo did survive the first EMP blast in the first film. Also, I don't think Neo became one with Smith by shaking his hand or by him trying to turn Neo into another Smith. I think they must have become bonded in the first film at the end where Neo destroys Smith. If he got Smith's powers in the park when Smith tries to take control of him then Morpheus would have the same powers as Neo. If you remember Morpheus also almost got taken over by Smith.

chanster

There were plenty of supernatural things in the first Matrix. Like Neo coming back to life, that can't be explained by any neat sci-fi theory.

Kellehair

He hadn't merged with Agent Smith yet then.

jim_cook87

It can be explained a few different ways, none supernatural:

1. Plenty of medical cases could be cited showing instances where people technically died for a brief period only to suddenly come back to life. Is it common? No. But it does happen, nothing supernatural.

2. They made the point in the first that the when the mind dies, the body does too. When Neo "dies" his inner-psyche realizes that there is no physical reason for him to die, his brain kicks back in and brings his body back.

When Trinity dies he realizes if he can bring her body in the Matrix back to life (which he can because it's just code which he can manipulate) if the "spark" in Trinity's real brain has not failed she'll come back...

3. Again, people die all the time, and through medical intervention they are brought back to life. Being jacked into the Matrix certainly gives the electrical connectivity necessary to jolt someone back to life.

If you consider (based on the revelations of Reloaded) that Neo was NECESSARY to the Matrix, then when he "died" maybe the Matrix jolted his body back to life, it could not let him die or the Matrix would be doomed. When Trinity died Neo jolted her back to life. Instead of paddles to the heart they jump started the brain...

jim_cook87

So when his mind merged with Smith in the Matrix it made physical changes to his body in the real world? Changes that made him an electrical machine subject to EMP?

I hope they have a better explanation than that...

Souljahh

Kind of a long post, I apologize.

This is PURE speculation on my part but it's just an idea I was tossing around in my mind which I thought was interesting. I'm not sure if it's ever been mentioned but anyway here goes:

The Machines are not one homogenous group. There is more than one set of machines. Let's say there are two groups of them. One of them more advanced than the other. They are similar to be sure but one is more advanced than the other; a more, improved next step in machine evolution. The newer breed of machine is undoubtedly more powerful and for whatever reason there is a war between the newer machines and the older ones.

Those of you familiar with human evolution will see a parallel. This is not unlike, say, the HomoSapiens and the Neanderthals. HomoSapiens were undoubtedly more advanced and they killed off many Neanderthals. Similarly, there is a war between this new HomoSapien-like set of machines and the older, more obsolete Neanderthal-like machines. From here on, I'll refer to the less advanced race of machines as Neanderthals and the more advanced race of machines as HomoSapiens.

Again, this is pure speculation but interesting nonetheless, in my opinion.

Now, ALL the machines need humans for energy, thus the matrix. The matrix we have been dealing with in both films is the one built by the HomoSapiens. They've designed over and over again for maximum energy productivity.

The Neanderthals, in an attempt to thwart the more advanced race of Machines, do whatever they can to destroy the matrix for the destruction of the matrix means certain death to the more advanced machines whose survival depends on the matrix (at least for the most part, the Architect hinted that not all the Machines would die). The HomoSapiens keep making new Matrices not only for more productivity and efficiency but also for newer defensive safeguards to help guard against any rogue elements that might be entered into the system by the less advanced set of machines who are against them.

Enter The One. The One is the only hope for the less advanced set of machines. It is a rogue program, THE rogue program developed by the Neanderthals to destroy the Matrix. The Neanderthals get better and better at programming a more capable One. This is why we've had Six The Ones so far. Neo is the newest of six versions developed by the Neanderthals in an attempt to halt the Matrix (doesn't the word Neo mean 'new' ? anyway I'm digressing). But the HomoSapiens are trying their hardest to defend agains the Neanderthals. How?

Enter Agent Smith. Agent Smith is like a mercenary program hired by the HomoSapiens designed to stop the One. He is the HomoSapiens ultimate security system. Whoever created the Smith program is getting better at it too which is why he's "upgrading." It's like a Cold War arms buildup. The Neanderthals keep making better versions of the One to destroy the matrix. The HomoSapiens keep making newer versions of the Agents to stop the newer Ones.

This is why we get the newfound abilities for both characters. Neo is able to stop the sentinels, Smith acquires the ability to duplicate himself. How? Simple, the Neanderthals are infiltrating the matrix and infusing new code to improve Neo's abilities while the HomoSapiens are constantly programming new abilities into Smith's program. Both sides are getting better at programming but not only that, they're scoping each other out.

What I mean by that is the Neanderthals are watching the HomoSapiens every move and vice versa. This is why we have the seemingly meshing of abilities between Neo and Smith mentioned in this thread. They're becoming more alike. Why? Because the Neanderthals are watching their Neo program played out, in his many interactions with Smith, and they essentially reverse engineer Smith, copy his abilities, and instill them into Neo. The HomoSapiens are doing the same for Smith. It's like when a program creator makes a defense system to prevent hacking. Then a hacker finally finds a way to break the system. What does the programmer do? He essentially gets into the mind of the hacker, learns how the hacker did what he did, learns of the hacker's "weapon," and imitates the hacker's and infuses those elements into a newer, more secure program to defend against future hackers.

This clears up who the Oracle is too. Simple. The Oracle is another rogue program installed into the system by the Neanderthals. The Oracle is just a program that helps Neo along the way. She's like a patch constantly installed into the system. She "fixes" any flaws the Neanderthal machines are noticing along the way.

So the WHOLE thing is a battle between machines. Humans are the resource of the future; objects machines fight over to ensure their own survival. The Neanderthals perhaps have their own smaller matrix on which they depend for survival. The HomoSapiens are trying to acquire that matrix perhaps and the Neanderthals are defending themselves by going to the HomoSapiens' very source of energy, defense through aggressive offense.

This theory speaks on the whole matrix-within-a-matrix idea and what exactly the real world is. Imo, everything (including Zion) is a part of the matrix. Nothing is real except the world where the two different races of machines are fighting each other. Everything else is program-bound. Like someone else said, Zion is a built-in layer of the matrix designed to make the matrix run more smoothly. All these new superpowers Smith and Neo have are just newer patches of existing rogue programs designed to be a "step ahead" of the other side.

I know there's really nothing in the films that suggests there's a war between the machines but it's a cool idea in my opinion. Perhaps the ending of Revolutions will show something like this. This will undoubtedly be seen by many as a cop-out if it were to happen.

B.A.

I shall bow to Patman and say, "We're not worthy, we're not worthy...".

I saw it this morning and loved and I have read over this entire thread trying to process what I saw on the big screen. There is no Matrix w/in a Matrix - that would be too lame, imo.

I won't get into it too much, mostly because everyone else has discussed anything that I can think of, but the most important part of the movie was in the first hour when Neo was talking to the Councilman (Anthony Zerbe) and they were on the engineering floor. Zerbe was talking about the symbiotic relationship between man and machines in Zion. That conversation is the key to the entire movie, imo.

I am so happy we don't have to wait three or four years for a sequel...

Patman

Hey, just glad someone else is reading my thoughts.

So...how about my idea that Neo can probably go Wireless now that he's been juiced up. By this I mean Neo doesn't need to be physically jacked into the Matrix, and can enter it at will. This would make Neo not need to get to a phone to make an exit, and gives him all sorts of "Knightcrawler" Bamf! capabilities.

Mr. Cornell

The problem with the MiaM theory is that it invalidates the events of "The Second Renaissance" from "The Animatrix", in which the humans lose an apocalyptic war with the Machines. As the narrator notes, the "essence" of the Second Renaissance is the man-machine symbiosis that exists as The Matrix. So either the MiaM theory is invalid, or the Wachowski Brothers contradicted themselves...

trigun

I don't buy this at all. First, if they're maintaining continuity with the first movie, there would have been a cheesy EMP special effect. Second, the sentinels were reacting differently than they did to the EMP in the first movie, with the sparks and all. If they were EMP'ed it'd they'd just silently shut down and fall to the ground (actually, their mometum probably would have sent them flying into Neo, killing him). Third, what the heck would be the point of Neo saying he can feel the sentinels, was he just bs'ing? It would look really stupid of him to hold his hand out just for the heck of it.

TCG

Agreed, Trigun, with everything you said. Why would Neo say "something's different"?, and "i can feel them"?

Also, that scene was very reminiscent of the end of M1 when Neo stops the bullets. It's just his will.

TCG

B/c they need humans for their power. Remember M1?

TCG

No, no, no.

IMO, Neo is not completely a 'flesh and blood human being.' Since combining with Smith in M1, 'things have been overwritten or copied. i dont know how.' (i assume we'll learn in Revolutions.)

And Smith is more human than he used to be.

If it is MiaM, then Neo would have felt the sentinels in M1.

jim_cook87

And by that logic he would've made the jump the first time.

He's learning how to use his power. He grew in power through M1, he grew more through the course of M2.

B.A.

If, and that's a big "if", Neo can go "wireless" in Revolutions because his powers have evolved to such a level since his interactions w/ Agent Smith...then that would be wicked ****ing cool. Actually, I don't see why that can't be a possibility since he obviously displayed super-human powers towards the end w/ the sentinels. After watching this one - I don't know what would actually surprise me in November.

Michael Corvin

All this discussion on ideas is great. No one truly knows but the people involved with the movie. But I think the MiaM theory is a big cop out and would be a huge let down to the movie going public. There is supposed to be this great war that the humans win over the machines and take back earth, but if it is all inside the matrix, it doesn't matter. It is all pointless. They start the matrix over and the point of the 3 movies was nothing. That is why I don't buy it. That is why I think it is something quite different that isn't so obvious.

- I don't think Neo has powers outside the Matrix. Why? He could single handedly wipe out the machines and return earth to it's human glory.

- I think it has something to do with Neo entering Smith at the end of one. He became more like them and Smith became more human.

TCG

then, How do you explain Neo destroying the sentinels?

jim_cook87

If Neo and company don't realize it or cannot defeat the Matrix because of this then I might agree it's a lame idea. But if Neo has realized the trick and then can truly defeat the Matrix that's an entirely different story.

Alternatively, perhaps he realizes the trick and realizes that escaping the Matrix is more complex than Morpheus or anyone in Zion envisioned (how will they ever know if they are truly outside the Matrix, was an infinite MiaM foreshadowed by the monitors in the Architect's office?) So knowing this the entire plan of attack is altered, or the objective becomes a more symbiotic existence (foreshadowed by the councilman.) Or one of many other possible objectives that could be hinted at by the conversations with the councilman, the Oracle, Seraph, Merovingian, Persephone, the Architect or Agent Smith, or someone yet to be met...

They've done a great job of setting up a very complex situation with many possible outcomes. And really any direction they go (short of something like it was all dream) could be stunning.

Is it November yet?!?!?!?!?!?!?