DVDGUY1116

oh my do I feel like an unattentive idiot! I remember Smith copying himself onto that guy and leaving the Matrix but I didn't realize that was the dude that tried to off Neo. Thanks for setting me straight!

Patman

Here's the conversation between Neo and the Architect:

"Hello Neo."

"Who are you?"

"I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize that it also the most irrelevant."

"Why am I here?"

"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomoly which despite my sincerest efforts I've been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexorably... here."

"You haven't answered my question."

"Quite right. Interesting... that was quicker than the others."

Now Neo's other selves in the monitors start asking all sort of questions, like "Others? What others?", etc...

"The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomoly to the emergence of the next in which case this is the sixth version."

Now the others Neo's start cursing and calling him a liar as we zoom into one of the Neo's on the screen who says...

"There are either two possible explanations... either no one told me... or no one knows."

"Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomoly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations."

Now the other Neo's start screaming "You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you..." etc...

The camera again zooms into another Neo in the center screen...

"Choice. The problem is choice."

"The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitablility of its doom as aparent to me now is a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus I redesigned it... based on your history. To more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated by failure. I've since come to understand the answer alluded me because it required a lesser mind or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another... an intuitive program. Initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix... she would undoubtedly be its mother."

"The Oracle."

"Please. As I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice. Even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While thid answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory... systemic anomoly... That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refuse the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster."

"This is about Zion."

"You are here because Zion is about to the destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existance eradicated."

"Bull s-h-i-t"... the other Neo also say "Bull s-h-i-t."

"Denial is the most predicatable of all human responses. But rest assured... this will be the 6th time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

Now there's Trinity fighting the Agent.

"The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the Matrix, 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."

"You wont let it happen, you can't. You need huamn beings to survive."

"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world."

Architect clicks his pen and the screens change to various human beings.

"It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication, a contigent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific... vis-a-vis... love."

"Trinity."

"She entered the Matrix to save your life, at the cost of her own."

"No."

"Which brings us at last, to the moment of truth, where the fundamental flaw is ulimately expressed and the anomoly revealed as both beginning... and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species. As you eloquently put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason, and emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth... she is going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it."

Neo takes the door to the left, but stops before leaving as Architect says...

"Hope... it is the quinisential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness."

"If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again."

"We wont."

Tarantino

Cool. Where'd you get that?

Iron_Giant

Thanks for the quote from the Architect. I was going to go back to the movie and record what he said.

I say Zion is going to die, but then everyone will be released from the Matrix and come out into a New world that is now green and alive, and the humans now understand that the machines and man must live together.

Surf Monkey

Yeah, I think that's very likely. Look for an 'up' ending to the saga.

Hannibal

Overall I enjoyed the movie, could use some editing though..too many shots of the Zionites grooving, thought I was out clubbing.
I believe that Patman's analysis is correct but how does that explain Neo's powers outside the matrix in the "real" world. In the first movie Smith explained the people defined themselves through suffering. This is largely why the first matrix (utopian) failed. Now you have really a dystopian matrix made all the more so replete with the .001 percent of people who rebel given a false sense of hope/purpose in this Zion matrix. This was supposed to keep things moving smoothly. Some clues: the spoon from spoon boy. The conversation Neo has with the counciler (possibly the previous One) with the need to understand the relationship with man needing the machines. The reason no one on the council is young? It's made up of the previous 21 people who were chosen to rebuild this current version of Zion Neo is the first one who truly realizes this Zion matrix when he stops the sentinals that he is shocked/disconnected into a coma or it serves as a fail safe unplugged contingency that the Architect thought would never happen. Notice how Smith is in a coma as well. This rouge program not figuring into the Architect plan for the cycle to repeat.

edit: I have since begun to believe that Zion is real all along
and that because of Neo and Smith mixing (Neo when he freed
Smth and Smith carving the eleven into his hand and shaking
Neo's, they are linked in more ways than one. Neo ability in the
real world using matrix powers is enhanced by Smith and vice
versa, Smith able to become human. Notice how they are both
found in comas at the end.

chanster

Well, this is pretty darn important...as we have seen Neo does bring her back..proving the architect wrong. EDIT. Yes technically she dies - just like Neo dies and comes back. I think the Architect is underestimating Neo.

Whether Trinity will survive Revolutions is another question - maybe she dies eventually.

Kellehair

I wouldn't think of it as another question. You've gotta keep an open mind and remember this is a trilogy. Did you think to yourself that the Oracle misled Neo in anyway in the original? I did at first but upon closer inspection, she didn't. I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Architect is wrong.

chanster

Like I said, I don't think it is a closed "question" ..when I said "another question" I meant to say we don't know the ultimate answer yet.

Klotera

One more argument to the possibility of the Matrix-in-Matrix theory. Just the simple fact that it would be yet another programming reference, as Reloaded in particlar, seemed to be very fond of. A freind of mine suggested that earlier and since then, I've come up with some other ideas for what might be going on if that is the case:

It's recursion - a piece of code calling itself with slightly different parameters (until it reaches a base state.... if they get into that much detail with it).

I don't think it would make the original Matrix obsolete. It would just mean that the logic of the Matrix was that much more complex than anyone thought. The Matrix in that film is one of these recursive calls. Hmmm.... possibly the base case?... in which case once it exits all the calling instances are ready to exit also and once this chain reaction travels up the stack that is when the Matrix is completely done? That would move us away from the logic that it makes the original Matrix obsolete, because if it is the base case - that is why it is so important.

I may be taking this too far, but hey it's a theory. On the other hand - the fact that the Matrix in Matrix idea is so obviously suggested by Neo's power in the "real" world makes me think it might be too obvious and that the Watchowski brothers might want something a little less expected.

There is also Neo's comment that something is different before he stops the sentinels. So maybe the real world before was the real world, but this time they have somehow been mislead into thinking they exited to the real world. The fact that Smtih is still there, though, kind of discounts that. Either way, that small statement is probably the key to what is really going on.

ckolchak

didn't smith carve the 11 into his left palm and shake hands with his right?

TCG

I still dont buy the Matrix-in-a-Matrix.

Smith says, "we share a connection."

In my mind, it's clear that the powers and minds of SMith and Neo are intertwining. Because of this, each is becoming more powerful, in the Matrix and the real world: Smith can copy himself seemingly infinite times in the Matrix, and even enter the Real World, while Neo's powers have begun to transfer to the Real World too.

Smith is becoming more human. Neo is becoming more machine.

I do believe the Architect, but he seemed shocked and a little scared when Neo chose door 2. I guess all the other Ones chose the first door. But why?

Q: were the previous Ones in love (w/ Trinity) too?

Here's a radical theory: The Oracle told Trinity she would fall in love with the One, which would also help him fall in love with her (sorta a self-fulfilling prophecy). -> The Oracle knew this would make this 6th One choose door 2 to save Trinity, different than the previous Ones (who chose to restart Zion from scratch). Therefore, this will make the humans victorious this time.

Jamers

I read this whole thread some I'm very tired but let me just add something. Someone here said that they may all likely leave the Matrix at the end of Revolutions to a green and alive world. If that were so, then the machines wouldn't even need humans anymore because they could go back to using solar power. Also, the French accented guy said something like "You are better than your predecessors, but they all failed too" eluding to the again to the possibility that Neo is a program or at least is existing in a Matrix within a Matrix . As if this same or similar scenario keeps playing out like in "Groundhog Day" but subtle changes or improvement occur each time. And finally the French accented guy does point out that Neo is just doing as he's been told by the Oracle as if he is being controlled and choice in but an illusion. He is being driven by the Matrix.

Klotera

Yeah, the more I think about it - the more the simple statement about something being different seems to completely dispose of any possibility of the recursive Matrix.

After more and more thought about the film, in particular a) Neo's power in the "real" world to stop the sentinels and b) Smith coming into a body in the real world - I have started to draw comarisons to the anime "Serial Experiments: Lain" I don't know if you are familiar with this or not - if so, then I don't need to explan anything to you. If not, I won't give away the whole story, but a lot of the theme in it is about the blurring of the line between the "wired" world and the real world (as opposed to what we currently think of the Matrix... a mostly seperate real and computer-generated world).

It has me thinking that Neo and Smith will be revolutionary (hence "revolutions") as the first two beings to truly blur the line between the real world and the Matrix. Neo became more machine-like when Smith tried to copy himself onto him. Smith became more human when he took over that guy and then traveled into his body in the "real" world. I wonder if this won't completely change the relationship between the real world and the matrix. And maybe the ending won't be a simple "free all the human" ending but rather something that involves the two worlds co-existing in a new paradigm - each fully aware of the relationship with the other. Probably pretty far-fetched... but an idea that intrigues me and, hell, that's the fun in having these kinds of discussions.

Patman

The reason why Neo and company have been driven by the Oracle to find the Merovingian is to get at the Keymaster, who always leads them to Source, and it's at this point of the whole "play" that Neo meets the Architect, and the Architect spells it out, and gives Neo the choice (as much as a choice that he can without giving up the control in their encounter). If Oracle doesn't lay out the trail with the breadcrumb, there's no telling when Neo would meet with the Architect, and the longer this 6th reload of the Matrix goes on, perhaps it gets more and more unstable for the Machines, so they are forced into providing the "prophecy/clues" to speed up the process to get them to meet.

gcribbs

If the real world truly is real then Neo simple could not do what he did at the end. Nor could a program from the matrix maintain control of a human in the real world IMO.

This leaves us with two possiblities.

1- both worlds are matrixs and we still need to see the real world.

2- The real world is real and somehow Neo has evolved beyond human and has powers only a God could have (feeling the machines then discharging energy to destroy them)


My feeling is that it will be easier to explain everything using a matrix with a matrix solution than evolving Neo. especially in one movie.

Of course this is why I really want to see the next movie already

Patman

The choice that faced Neo:

Door 1: The Matrix gets rebooted and this will save humanity from utter destruction by the Machines: Neo gets to choose 16 women, and 7 men to re-populate Zion. Neo gets re-assimilated into the Matrix code. This door lets Neo be the hero. The previous 5 Neo's picked Door #1.

Door 2. The machines simply kill all of the people jacked into the Matrix, and the sentinels will hunt down and kill every single person from Zion. The human race is exterminated under this scenario. This would take place within 24 hours after going through Door #2, so Neo has a day to save humanity from the Machines (and this is where the Matrix Revolutions starts).

Since Neo went through Door #2, he did his darnedest to save Trinity (something the Architect said was impossible, though techinically Trinity did die, but Neo was able to resurrect her "virtual" heart inside the Matrix, which brings her real body back as well), and that heroic act showed him that destiny is not pre-ordained inside the Matrix, but that he is on the right track of finding and exercising free will, and being able to express his choices under those conditions, and not have to choose between choices set up by the Matrix and the Architect/et al, where they hold the power (to provide the choices given to those inside the Matrix).

Smith is another anomaly, something the Architect did not engineer and probably did not foresee since Neo #6 is who created him, by accident (at the end of the first film), Smith is now a "free" agent, and has viral-characteristic since he can replicate himself by copying himself over any normal person jacked into the Matrix. This allows him to materialize in the real world when he copied himself onto Bane, and then got sent back into the real world, so Smith is now in control of Bane's body in the real world, and was presumably the person responsible for prematurely setting off the EMP, which doomed the ships trying to launch a surprise attack on the sentinels. Smith is on a mission to take over the Matrix, and now has to means to affect events on the outside of the Matrix as well. This makes him doubly dangerous to both Zion freedom fighters, and to the AI/Machines that runs the Matrix.

For Neo to truly turn into a Christ-like figure, he will have to sacrifice himself for the salvation of Zion in The Matrix Revolutions, and it may come to that in (I'm guessing) the climatic battle between Neo and Smith prime to settle things once and for all mankind and all machinekind. Smith will think he has won, but in this moment, things will change, and perhaps a situation will emerge that will allow both Man and Machine to co-exist without losing control of their destinies or subjected to the whims of one entity over the other.

The case to make that Smith is now the anti-Christ is that Smith takes actions to corrupt everyone jacked into the Matrix for his own agenda, i.e. turning every person possible into another one of him, creating an ubiquitous presence inside the Matrix that will cause the Matrix to shut down systematically as the Smiths exert their own will inside the Matrix.

I still say the connection that Neo and Smith share came from when Smith tried to assimilate Neo right before the Burly Brawl takes place. Smith wasn't strong enough to assimilate Neo, and this inadvertently creates their little "psychic" link (of AI becoming man, and man becoming AI), and it carries over into the real world, and could have had the effect of unlocking Neo's brain potential (telepathy and telekinesis a la Jean Grey of the X-Men), which would explain how Neo starting sensing things, and was able to stop the sentinels in their tracks (but not before his brain had a breaker trip in his head, and putting him into a coma-like state).

kajiangel

Okay, here's the thing. Yes, Neo does something new and different at the end of the movie. Yes, he manages to stop the sentinals. However, this does not necessarily point to a matrix within a matrix. Just because that is the "easy" answer doesn't mean it is true.

What if, after having realized his full abilities in the matrix--flying, super-humanspeed, etc.--Neo has become very good at manipulating the code around him. He can see the matrix in its most simple form and affect it. So, after all of this, what if Neo is now more senistive to "codes" and "programs" when he is outside the martix. What if he can feel the senitnals because there are machines, because the operate on programs that he can now sense, and manipulate. This would make sense. If you notice, he didn't just stop them as he might have in the matrix. He didn't just freeze them in the air as he might a bullet or get into a physical fight as he would with an agent. Insead, he somehow turned them off, acompanied by a large discharge of energy, then promptly passed out into a coma, as if he had completely over excerted himself. This supports the theory that this new experience of manipulation occured in the real world because in the matrix, he never over excerts himself anymore. As the One, he can do anything in the matrix, even tear up cities with the speed of his flying. However, when he manipulated code in the real world, it was too difficult, at least this first time it was.

I think this is also why the architect wanted him to choose the other door. The previous anomolies never went back into the matrix, they always chose to reset everything. I believe the architect is afraid because he does not know to what extent Neo will be able to manipulate the matrix, and possibly suspected this new ability outside the matrix.

chanster

Patman, you are reading my thoughts exactly.

For all the bitchin about the early parts of Reloaded, I think it will be key to the entire series. The Councilor says that we must learn to live with machines in some fashion or another, and we simply cannot just turn them off.

My guess - the real world is so damaged/corrupted that the humans will defeat the machines and will be forced to live inside the Matrix in one form of another. Smith and his viral buddies will be in control of the Matrix by that point, and Neo will have to battle him for control of the Matrix.

Patman

I'm in the camp that dismisses the notion of Zion being just another part of The Matrix. I say Zion is real, the humans of Zion are real, and that the fight will be for the freedom of humans from the Machines, but they will learn that they need one another, and the relationship between Machine and Man will go from a "master-slave" relationship to a "symbiotic" relationship.

kajiangel

You are so cool Patman.

Kasper

"she is going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it."

but he did stop it.. why couldnt the Architect see that? there is something that makes this Neo different from the others, and i think we have already seen what made that happen.

has anyone asked why agent smith has this new power? no other program has every tried to take over a freedom fighter and go back to the "real world"? agent smith is supposed to be deleted and now is pissed off at Neo. remember in the first movie Neo jumped into agent smith and he exploded.. i always thought that was kinda strange.. and i had thought then it killed agent smith.. maybe it has something to do with the connection now between Neo and agent smith? smith said they were connected now for some reason and he didn't know why.

this was by far the best movie i have ever seen.. i just wish it didnt have that gay dance orgy/love scene. they should have replaced that with Neo and Morphous fighting again.

Patman is right about the Machines and humans working together.. it has already started.. i just wonder.. what are they going to do without the matrix.. i mean yes it will be great to be free and all.. but in the matrix they have powers they have a purpose.. wont they be bored without it?

Kasper

btw... i hope its not Matrix with in a Matrix.. :/ but "something is different now" i think Neo stopping the sentinels is what makes everyone think this.. maybe they were just still in the matrix.. i dont know.. soooo much to think about

Kellehair

There's 2 ways to look at this...
1. Neo did not prevent Trinity's death, she did die. Granted he was able to bring her back, but she did die.
2. Remember this is a trilogy. The Archiect isn't wrong yet.

Is anyone really sure that Neo stopped those sentinels and not something or someone else?

Hannibal

edit: I have since begun to shut down. I face deletion...