Hundreds Held Hostage in Russia School
09-01-04, 07:29 PM
#76
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Originally posted by Pharoh
And in some tangental news:
A group of passengers and flight crew aboard a plane bound for Russia from Egypt refused to take off until two women, believed to be Chechen, were taken off the plane. The two Chechen women were added to the manifest at the last moment and were accompanied onto the plane by Egyptian officials. According to witnesses, the women immediately both went to the restrooms and locked the doors. It was then that the passengers, mostly all Russian tourists heading home, demanded their removal.
Messed up world indeed.
And in some tangental news:
A group of passengers and flight crew aboard a plane bound for Russia from Egypt refused to take off until two women, believed to be Chechen, were taken off the plane. The two Chechen women were added to the manifest at the last moment and were accompanied onto the plane by Egyptian officials. According to witnesses, the women immediately both went to the restrooms and locked the doors. It was then that the passengers, mostly all Russian tourists heading home, demanded their removal.
Messed up world indeed.
09-01-04, 07:44 PM
#77
Pharoh,
Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.
There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.
And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.
Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.
Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.
There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.
And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.
Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.
09-01-04, 08:13 PM
#78
Good point Polizei. It's also interesting that the past two ground events have taken place outside of Chechnya, in Ingushetia. I think that these a-holes are trying to widen the conflict and that to me does not smack of "liberation" of Chechnya. Polizei, you mentioned that you think the Russian commandos should act quickly. What do you think they should do? I'm guessing, just storm the place and hope to save some of the hostages because as you said, waiting almost insures that ALL of the hostages will be killed. This may be the only way to deal with this shit. You have to plan for "acceptable losses." Bringing the death toll of your people from 100% to even 75% is better than the alternative.
09-01-04, 09:01 PM
#79
Moderator
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Pharoh,
Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.
There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.
And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.
Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.
Pharoh,
Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.
There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.
And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.
Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.
It is almost universally believed that Islamic Chechen separatists loyal to Basayev were responsible, with some Saudi based Wahhabiists aiding, and perhaps even leading the assault.
One of the main culptits fingered for the attacks was Saudi wahhabiist Abu Kuteiba. Kuteiba was killed in a firefight on July 2nd as Russian security forces attempted to arrest him. He was said to then be the chief pipeline between Chechen Islamists, led by Basayev, Saudi Arabia, and al queda. He was a very close comrade of slain Saudi Abu Walid and Khattab, a Jordanian, both of whom were killed by Russian forces in Chechnya. Their deaths had been a rallying point for the Chechen Islamists.
There is also a video floating around showing what is believed to be Basayev leading an attack against the Russian Ingushetia arms depot. He was clearly centrally involved.
I think, in fact I am certain, that those June attacks were carried out by homegrown Chechen Islamists and by external wahhabiists, mostly Saudi in nature. I too agree that the same people are likely responsible for this latest atrocity, of which there is some news. However, I do not think the first group I referenced is responsible, nor am I even convinced of their existence, despite reports of their ties to zawahiri. And I will post in a moment a chilling find, chilling to me at least.
09-01-04, 09:15 PM
#80
Moderator
The scum have reportedly dropped a note out of a window listing their "demands." It is the usual, the removal of all Russian forces from Chechnya and Ingushetia. They have claimed they will only negotiate with the Presidents of Ingushetia and North Ossetia, as well as with Leonid Roshal, whom I posted about before. There is still no official word on how many hostages there are, but the best estimates put the count at 300.
I am truly sickened over this.
I am truly sickened over this.
09-01-04, 09:41 PM
#81
I think it's going to end like other terrorist incidents in the area. Bloody, and no one will really win any amount political desires.
09-01-04, 09:42 PM
#82
Moderator
For the chilling information.
Russian intelligence learned on August 27th that Chechen Islamists and followers of Basayev were planning suicide bombings throughout Russia, specifically in Moscow, to take place prior to Sunday's elections. Further, they learned that larger scale attacks were going to take place, including guerrilla attacks in Grozny and the outlying regions, areas such as North Ossetia. They knew these things were going to happen, and they could nothing about them! Well, at least they "beefed" up security around their nuclear plants. Don't you all feel safer?
These plans were discussed in Chechnya between Basayev and al queda representatives. They indeed, as Vin pointed out, want to expand the war. Russia can do nothing.
Personal thought:
It is a very sad notion that Russia is a paper tiger, for the drums of war are beating loudly and strongly in Russia, louder than at any time since Afghanistan. Many in Moscow want to hit the terrorists where they live, they want to do as America did in Afghanistan and Iraq, change the dynamics, redefine the battlefield. I just wish they could, but I don't think they can.
It is also interesting to note what many Russian analysts and military personnel are saying as to who may be complicit in the attacks. Many are claiming that the terrorists could only have done these things with assistance from the West, and they aren't talking about America. I am sure it is just bluster, but bluster that I think is going to grow and fester. Not good, not good at all.
Russian intelligence learned on August 27th that Chechen Islamists and followers of Basayev were planning suicide bombings throughout Russia, specifically in Moscow, to take place prior to Sunday's elections. Further, they learned that larger scale attacks were going to take place, including guerrilla attacks in Grozny and the outlying regions, areas such as North Ossetia. They knew these things were going to happen, and they could nothing about them! Well, at least they "beefed" up security around their nuclear plants. Don't you all feel safer?
These plans were discussed in Chechnya between Basayev and al queda representatives. They indeed, as Vin pointed out, want to expand the war. Russia can do nothing.
Personal thought:
It is a very sad notion that Russia is a paper tiger, for the drums of war are beating loudly and strongly in Russia, louder than at any time since Afghanistan. Many in Moscow want to hit the terrorists where they live, they want to do as America did in Afghanistan and Iraq, change the dynamics, redefine the battlefield. I just wish they could, but I don't think they can.
It is also interesting to note what many Russian analysts and military personnel are saying as to who may be complicit in the attacks. Many are claiming that the terrorists could only have done these things with assistance from the West, and they aren't talking about America. I am sure it is just bluster, but bluster that I think is going to grow and fester. Not good, not good at all.
09-01-04, 10:02 PM
#83
VinVega,
Well, it's a no-win. We have children being used as human shields on the windows of the building to prevent snipers from getting any kind of view or shot. Diabetics who need insulin and food, but who are being denied it currently.
It's a tough call. In this case, we are not dealing with a typical hostage taker who wants to get out alive. These are Muslim extremists who think nothing of blowing themselves up.
I'd have to say I would negotiate the release of prisoners, and try and save as many children and parents as I could. After following the terrorists where ever they would go, I would make an example out of them. These prisoners are worthless scum and I would rather save 1 child than 100 prisoners.
The primary goals are:
1) Save as many hostages as possible
2) Make an example out of these hostage takers so the chances of this happening again will be very small
Possible Solutions:
1) Blow up the school (obviously won't happen but sure as hell would stop any future hostage taking from happening)
2) Storm the school and rescue as many as possible (probably not as effective as normal hostage taking crisis because these people are suicide bombers as well and this scenario would play out in another school)
3) Temporarily give-in to the demands of the terrorists and get them as they run for shelter across the borders (here you are saving lives and still being adamant on killing those responsible)
I think Russia could save as many hostages as possible by negotiating the release of prisoners, and then fighting back however necessary and by whatever means possible.
I am expecting the same situation as happened in January 1996, when most hostages were released when demands were met but tooks some hostages across the border into Chechnya which is where Russian forces fought back and of course, hostages were killed.
Well, it's a no-win. We have children being used as human shields on the windows of the building to prevent snipers from getting any kind of view or shot. Diabetics who need insulin and food, but who are being denied it currently.
It's a tough call. In this case, we are not dealing with a typical hostage taker who wants to get out alive. These are Muslim extremists who think nothing of blowing themselves up.
I'd have to say I would negotiate the release of prisoners, and try and save as many children and parents as I could. After following the terrorists where ever they would go, I would make an example out of them. These prisoners are worthless scum and I would rather save 1 child than 100 prisoners.
The primary goals are:
1) Save as many hostages as possible
2) Make an example out of these hostage takers so the chances of this happening again will be very small
Possible Solutions:
1) Blow up the school (obviously won't happen but sure as hell would stop any future hostage taking from happening)
2) Storm the school and rescue as many as possible (probably not as effective as normal hostage taking crisis because these people are suicide bombers as well and this scenario would play out in another school)
3) Temporarily give-in to the demands of the terrorists and get them as they run for shelter across the borders (here you are saving lives and still being adamant on killing those responsible)
I think Russia could save as many hostages as possible by negotiating the release of prisoners, and then fighting back however necessary and by whatever means possible.
I am expecting the same situation as happened in January 1996, when most hostages were released when demands were met but tooks some hostages across the border into Chechnya which is where Russian forces fought back and of course, hostages were killed.
09-01-04, 10:18 PM
#84
Moderator
Just wanted to clarify one of my earlier posts. Those who committed the June attacks in Ingushetia, namely Basayev loyalists and some Saudi wahhabiists, were largely the ones imprisoned.
09-01-04, 10:41 PM
#85
Moderator
Damn! There are infants under 1 years old amongst the hostages. They were there as many parents took them on their siblings first day of school.
I try to remain detached in my posts, but I am having a difficult time here. It is time that Russia, England, China, and America show these fucks what the world is about.
I try to remain detached in my posts, but I am having a difficult time here. It is time that Russia, England, China, and America show these fucks what the world is about.
09-01-04, 10:43 PM
#86
DVD Talk Hero
This crisis in the school is only going to get worse as time goes on. This is terrible. Poor kids - like I said earlier: these ********ers don't deserve a quick death. They deserve to die slowly and rather painfully.
09-01-04, 11:32 PM
#88
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Originally posted by Pharoh
Well, in a small bit of good news, Mayak radio is reporting that the terrorists have agreed to accept food and water from the outside.
Well, in a small bit of good news, Mayak radio is reporting that the terrorists have agreed to accept food and water from the outside.
really...
09-01-04, 11:38 PM
#90
DVD Talk God
Let me get this straight....these are Muslim terrorists?
For being such an extreme and small smart of Islam that does this kind of thing, it sure seems to happen pretty often. But I am sure most Muslims will condemn this. A poll of Palestinians would be interesting.
When was the last suicide bomber? I wonder how the wall is really doing for all the crying around the world about it. (seriously, I wonder. That is not a sarcastic rhetorical question)
For being such an extreme and small smart of Islam that does this kind of thing, it sure seems to happen pretty often. But I am sure most Muslims will condemn this. A poll of Palestinians would be interesting.
When was the last suicide bomber? I wonder how the wall is really doing for all the crying around the world about it. (seriously, I wonder. That is not a sarcastic rhetorical question)
09-02-04, 07:09 AM
#91
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A turn for the worse...
This does not look good. And it looks like, at least on the surface, that the authorities are sticking to negotiations. 
Explosions Rock School at Center of Hostage Standoff in Southern Russia, Smoke Rises
Explosions Rock School at Center of Hostage Standoff in Southern Russia, Smoke Rises
BESLAN, Russia (AP) - Two explosions rocked the area around a school where heavily armed militants, some strapped with bombs, were holed up for a second day Thursday with about 350 hostages including many children in southern Russia.
The explosions came about 10 minutes apart, from the vicinity of the school, followed by a cloud of black smoke. No further details were available and it was impossible to see exactly what happened because police had cordoned off the area.
The cause of the explosions was not clear. The militants who stormed the school Wednesday had threatened to blow it up if Russian forces launched an assault to free the hostages - but there was no sign that any operation or battle was underway.
Earlier on Thursday, Valery Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, seemed to rule out the immediate use of force.
"There is no alternative to dialogue," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted him as saying. "One should expect long and tense negotiations."
Russian officials had negotiated fruitlessly through the night to end the standoff. Crowds of distraught relatives and townspeople waited helplessly for news of their loved ones, and before the blasts, gunfire occasionally rattled from the area.
Earlier Thursday, in his first public comment on the raid, President Vladimir Putin pledged to do everything possible to save the lives of the hundreds of hostages.
"We understand these acts are not only against private citizens of Russia but against Russia as a whole," Putin said in comments broadcast on Russian television during a Kremlin meeting with Jordan King Abdullah II. "What is happening in North Ossetia is horrible."
"It's horrible not only because some of the hostages are children but because this action can explode even a fragile balance of interconfessional and international relations in the region."
The school in Beslan, a town of about 30,000, is in North Ossetia, near the republic of Chechnya where separatist rebels have been fighting Russian forces since 1999. Suspicion in the raid fell on Chechen militants although no claim of responsibility has been made.
The raid came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by suicide bombers also linked to Chechnya.
The recent bloodshed is a blow to Putin, who pledged five years ago to crush Chechnya's rebels but instead has seen the insurgents increasingly strike civilian targets beyond the republic's borders.
Heavily armed militants wearing masks descended on Middle School No. 1 shortly after 9 a.m. on the opening day of the new school year Wednesday. About a dozen people managed to escape by hiding in a boiler room, but hundreds of others were herded into the school gymnasium and some were placed at windows as human shields.
Little was known about food and sanitary condition inside the school; offers to deliver food and water to the school were turned down.
Camouflage-clad special forces troops carrying assault rifles encircled the school, while the militants placed a sniper on an upper floor of the three-story building. More than 1,000 people, including many parents, crowded outside police cordons demanding information and accusing the government of failing to protect their children.
Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, said on NTV television that elders from Chechnya and Ingushetia had offered to come to the school and act as stand-in hostages so that women and children could be released. He also said that some of the militants had been identified, and investigators were attempting to find their relatives and bring them to the school to help in the negotiations. Two Arab television stations had also offered to negotiate, Andreyev said.
"Negotiations are continuing," he said.
From inside the school, the militants sent out a list of demands and threatened that if police intervened, they would kill 50 children for every hostage-taker killed and 20 children for every hostage-taker injured, Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the North Ossetia region's Interior Ministry, was quoted as telling the ITAR-Tass news agency. An aide to the North Ossetian president, Lev Dzugayev, estimated there were between 15 and 24 militants.
How the police could end the standoff without a storming the building was unclear. The Moscow theater hostage-taking ended after an unidentified knockout gas was pumped into the building, but the gas was responsible for almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.
Gennady Gudkov, a retired Federal Security Service colonel and a member of the Russian parliament's defense committee, said there is little chance that authorities will resort to a knockout gas this time - particularly since medical experts said it tended to have a stronger effect on children.
"I don't think that in this case anyone would have the courage to use gas or any other means," he was quoted as telling Russia's Gazeta.ru Web site.
Casualty reports in the raid varied widely, but an official in the joint-command operation for the crisis said on condition of anonymity early Thursday that 16 people were killed - 12 inside the school, two who died in hospital and two others whose bodies still lay outside the school and could not be removed because of gunfire. Thirteen others were wounded.
However, Dzugayev said that seven were killed. He also gave the number of hostages at 354. The children were mostly under 14.
Negotiations via phone continued on-and-off throughout the night and early morning, involving well-known pediatrician Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater by Chechens in 2002. The hostage-takers had demanded his participation. Russia's NTV television reported that Roshal had told the militants they would be promised a safe corridor out, but the request was refused.
Dzugayev said Thursday morning that so far the talks have not achieved anything.
After an emergency session called for by Russia, the United Nations Security Council on Wednesday condemned "the heinous terrorist act" and demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
A representative of Aslan Mashkhadov, a separatist leader who was Chechnya's president during three years of de-facto independence that ended in 1999, denied Chechen involvement in a statement published on a separatist Web site.
The explosions came about 10 minutes apart, from the vicinity of the school, followed by a cloud of black smoke. No further details were available and it was impossible to see exactly what happened because police had cordoned off the area.
The cause of the explosions was not clear. The militants who stormed the school Wednesday had threatened to blow it up if Russian forces launched an assault to free the hostages - but there was no sign that any operation or battle was underway.
Earlier on Thursday, Valery Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, seemed to rule out the immediate use of force.
"There is no alternative to dialogue," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted him as saying. "One should expect long and tense negotiations."
Russian officials had negotiated fruitlessly through the night to end the standoff. Crowds of distraught relatives and townspeople waited helplessly for news of their loved ones, and before the blasts, gunfire occasionally rattled from the area.
Earlier Thursday, in his first public comment on the raid, President Vladimir Putin pledged to do everything possible to save the lives of the hundreds of hostages.
"We understand these acts are not only against private citizens of Russia but against Russia as a whole," Putin said in comments broadcast on Russian television during a Kremlin meeting with Jordan King Abdullah II. "What is happening in North Ossetia is horrible."
"It's horrible not only because some of the hostages are children but because this action can explode even a fragile balance of interconfessional and international relations in the region."
The school in Beslan, a town of about 30,000, is in North Ossetia, near the republic of Chechnya where separatist rebels have been fighting Russian forces since 1999. Suspicion in the raid fell on Chechen militants although no claim of responsibility has been made.
The raid came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by suicide bombers also linked to Chechnya.
The recent bloodshed is a blow to Putin, who pledged five years ago to crush Chechnya's rebels but instead has seen the insurgents increasingly strike civilian targets beyond the republic's borders.
Heavily armed militants wearing masks descended on Middle School No. 1 shortly after 9 a.m. on the opening day of the new school year Wednesday. About a dozen people managed to escape by hiding in a boiler room, but hundreds of others were herded into the school gymnasium and some were placed at windows as human shields.
Little was known about food and sanitary condition inside the school; offers to deliver food and water to the school were turned down.
Camouflage-clad special forces troops carrying assault rifles encircled the school, while the militants placed a sniper on an upper floor of the three-story building. More than 1,000 people, including many parents, crowded outside police cordons demanding information and accusing the government of failing to protect their children.
Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, said on NTV television that elders from Chechnya and Ingushetia had offered to come to the school and act as stand-in hostages so that women and children could be released. He also said that some of the militants had been identified, and investigators were attempting to find their relatives and bring them to the school to help in the negotiations. Two Arab television stations had also offered to negotiate, Andreyev said.
"Negotiations are continuing," he said.
From inside the school, the militants sent out a list of demands and threatened that if police intervened, they would kill 50 children for every hostage-taker killed and 20 children for every hostage-taker injured, Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the North Ossetia region's Interior Ministry, was quoted as telling the ITAR-Tass news agency. An aide to the North Ossetian president, Lev Dzugayev, estimated there were between 15 and 24 militants.
How the police could end the standoff without a storming the building was unclear. The Moscow theater hostage-taking ended after an unidentified knockout gas was pumped into the building, but the gas was responsible for almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.
Gennady Gudkov, a retired Federal Security Service colonel and a member of the Russian parliament's defense committee, said there is little chance that authorities will resort to a knockout gas this time - particularly since medical experts said it tended to have a stronger effect on children.
"I don't think that in this case anyone would have the courage to use gas or any other means," he was quoted as telling Russia's Gazeta.ru Web site.
Casualty reports in the raid varied widely, but an official in the joint-command operation for the crisis said on condition of anonymity early Thursday that 16 people were killed - 12 inside the school, two who died in hospital and two others whose bodies still lay outside the school and could not be removed because of gunfire. Thirteen others were wounded.
However, Dzugayev said that seven were killed. He also gave the number of hostages at 354. The children were mostly under 14.
Negotiations via phone continued on-and-off throughout the night and early morning, involving well-known pediatrician Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater by Chechens in 2002. The hostage-takers had demanded his participation. Russia's NTV television reported that Roshal had told the militants they would be promised a safe corridor out, but the request was refused.
Dzugayev said Thursday morning that so far the talks have not achieved anything.
After an emergency session called for by Russia, the United Nations Security Council on Wednesday condemned "the heinous terrorist act" and demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
A representative of Aslan Mashkhadov, a separatist leader who was Chechnya's president during three years of de-facto independence that ended in 1999, denied Chechen involvement in a statement published on a separatist Web site.
09-02-04, 07:33 AM
#93
Polizei, how do you make an example out of people who are not afraid to die? I understand what you are saying, but chopping these bastards into little pieces won't deter their comrades back in Chechnya and Saudi Arabia. The other problem is, if you just accept that those kids are all dead anyway and bomb the building, then the terrorists win. If you give in to the terrorists' demands, the terrorists win. If the terrorists kill all the hostages, the terrorists win. The only way we can win is to kill or capture the terrorists and not lose the hostages. Not fair.
It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.
It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.
09-02-04, 07:40 AM
#94
Moderator
Originally posted by VinVega
Polizei, how do you make an example out of people who are not afraid to die? I understand what you are saying, but chopping these bastards into little pieces won't deter their comrades back in Chechnya and Saudi Arabia. The other problem is, if you just accept that those kids are all dead anyway and bomb the building, then the terrorists win. If you give in to the terrorists' demands, the terrorists win. If the terrorists kill all the hostages, the terrorists win. The only way we can win is to kill or capture the terrorists and not lose the hostages. Not fair.
It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.
Polizei, how do you make an example out of people who are not afraid to die? I understand what you are saying, but chopping these bastards into little pieces won't deter their comrades back in Chechnya and Saudi Arabia. The other problem is, if you just accept that those kids are all dead anyway and bomb the building, then the terrorists win. If you give in to the terrorists' demands, the terrorists win. If the terrorists kill all the hostages, the terrorists win. The only way we can win is to kill or capture the terrorists and not lose the hostages. Not fair.
It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.
For well over a year, the exact opposite has been happening. Largely under the radar of mainstream media and American perception, the countries have been moving further and further apart, perhaps as far apart as anytime since the end of the Cold War. I too hope that this can change, that a common enemy can be engaged and eradicated.
Your depiction of the battle, the limitations imposed not only by Western value system, but also a value system imposed by being an established nation participating in global affairs, is precisely and exactly why the battlefield needs to change. The dynamics and parameters drastically need to be altered. The fight must be taken to them. It is imperative for the continued safety of the free world.
09-02-04, 08:01 AM
#95
Moderator
I don't think the explosions were much of anything at this point, but I can't find out a great deal about them.
And in another small bit of good news, from about ten minutes ago:
And in another small bit of good news, from about ten minutes ago:
BESLAN. Sept 2 (Interfax) - Hostage-takers have released three women with infants from the school in Beslan, an official representative of the hostage-release headquarters told Interfax.
09-02-04, 08:38 AM
#96
Originally posted by Pharoh
Your depiction of the battle, the limitations imposed not only by Western value system, but also a value system imposed by being an established nation participating in global affairs, is precisely and exactly why the battlefield needs to change. The dynamics and parameters drastically need to be altered. The fight must be taken to them. It is imperative for the continued safety of the free world.
Your depiction of the battle, the limitations imposed not only by Western value system, but also a value system imposed by being an established nation participating in global affairs, is precisely and exactly why the battlefield needs to change. The dynamics and parameters drastically need to be altered. The fight must be taken to them. It is imperative for the continued safety of the free world.
09-02-04, 08:47 AM
#97
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Yeah Pharoh, the info on the explosions is very sketchy, I agree.
That's damn good to hear about the release, but I'm still not too hopeful of the situation.
That's damn good to hear about the release, but I'm still not too hopeful of the situation.
09-02-04, 08:47 AM
#98
Enormous Genitals
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
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They could always remove Russian forces from Chechnya and Ingushetia - and then drop a couple of nukes.
No, I'm not serious, but I'm sure there are some who might consider this as a serious alternative.
No, I'm not serious, but I'm sure there are some who might consider this as a serious alternative.
09-02-04, 09:02 AM
#99
DVD Talk Legend
Why is it that when the US Soldiers go after their enemies, who use innocent civilians as human shields and there's unfortunate collateral damage, the US is nothing but war criminals and GW Bush is worse than Hitler; but when these sick fucks intentially put innocent children in harm's way, you don't hear a peep?
09-02-04, 09:09 AM
#100
Moderator
Originally posted by VinVega
What do you mean by this? This a very broad statement.
What do you mean by this? This a very broad statement.
Purposefully broad so as to not detract or derail this important thread. A full discussion on what I meant, and I think you are reading into it correctly, is truly better suited for some other place and time. Basically though, the battle had better soon be taken to the enemy, rather than letting them take it to us, with us being the advanced World.