Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
07-13-14, 04:00 PM
#51
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Ehhhhh. I wouldn't call it selling out. They've allowed issues like this before. Cases like these I'd never directly blame CC on. If you piss off the guy that you brought on to help with the film coming onto BD... What happens?
07-13-14, 04:21 PM
#52
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Watching Devil Rides Out the other night, and especially the special feature on the CG tweaking afterward- it's become clear to me that the only kind of revisionism I can tolerate is that which is done by fans or contracted third parties.
When the actual filmmakers revisit their films decades later their intention isn't to hew to the established feel or sense of the film- it's generally to change it entirely. Whether it is adding material that completely destroys the original pacing (Apocalypse Now Redux, Star Wars SEs, The Warriors) or wholesale changes to the visual look of the film (Thief, Dracula, most of Ridley Scott's catalog)- the seeming intention of these changes is to make the film feel new or different.
Contrast that with the approaches taken by Paramount in updating the effects for TOS or the comments by the effects team in Devil Rides Out special feature. These people care about trying to preserve the distinct feel of the original film while smoothing out the edges. The point is to try to make the alterations feel as seamless as possible.
These directors OTOH are doing almost everything possible to pull their film out of the era it was made in and tarting it up so that it passes for something contemporary...as if being of it's era was something to be ashamed of.
When the actual filmmakers revisit their films decades later their intention isn't to hew to the established feel or sense of the film- it's generally to change it entirely. Whether it is adding material that completely destroys the original pacing (Apocalypse Now Redux, Star Wars SEs, The Warriors) or wholesale changes to the visual look of the film (Thief, Dracula, most of Ridley Scott's catalog)- the seeming intention of these changes is to make the film feel new or different.
Contrast that with the approaches taken by Paramount in updating the effects for TOS or the comments by the effects team in Devil Rides Out special feature. These people care about trying to preserve the distinct feel of the original film while smoothing out the edges. The point is to try to make the alterations feel as seamless as possible.
These directors OTOH are doing almost everything possible to pull their film out of the era it was made in and tarting it up so that it passes for something contemporary...as if being of it's era was something to be ashamed of.
07-13-14, 04:26 PM
#53
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Give us, the paying viewers and fans a choice, dammit!
07-13-14, 04:30 PM
#54
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I'm pretty sure the upcoming UK Blu-ray of "Thief" will look exactly the same as the Criterion.
07-13-14, 07:38 PM
#55
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
07-13-14, 08:08 PM
#56
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
BTW: What does the original cinematograper have to say about the tealization of THIEF? Did his input come into the picture at all? Or, is the director's word in Criterion's 'consultation' tantamount to Zeus striking down the lightning bolt?
07-13-14, 08:19 PM
#57
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
This is consistent with Criterion's policy all along. Criterion has always deferred to the wishes of the original filmmakers in how they want their movies presented, for better or worse. That's why The Last Emperor is cropped and a number of other films are only available in "Director's Cut" versions in the Criterion Collection.
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
The difference with Thief and Scanners are that they are relatively recent, sort-of mainstream films by directors with cult followings. And more specifically they are the kind of titles which appeal to a certain segment of the online audience who obsess over screenshots and such. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying that the volume is turned up a little louder on the complaints for these two. Criterion hasn't changed a thing with regards to how they operate.
07-13-14, 09:28 PM
#58
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I noticed the color-timing change on Criterion's release of DAYS OF HEAVEN too, but it does not seem as egregious as that applied to either SCANNERS or THIEF. The Malick film now looks too dark and orange to me, but again, I can live with it. It still shouldn't have been tinkered with.
Certainly there are those freaks who endlessly obsess over screenshots. The problem of the THIEF Criterion 'reimagining' transcends screenshots alone. It now places the film as an anachronism: a 1981 theatrical release spiffed up, modernized, and gentrified -- catering to the ideals and whims of the director whose 2014 personal choice has been foisted upon a company and the public. The biggest problem of all is that we now have a technically-faultless, superior 1080p encode of a bastardized product.
Certainly there are those freaks who endlessly obsess over screenshots. The problem of the THIEF Criterion 'reimagining' transcends screenshots alone. It now places the film as an anachronism: a 1981 theatrical release spiffed up, modernized, and gentrified -- catering to the ideals and whims of the director whose 2014 personal choice has been foisted upon a company and the public. The biggest problem of all is that we now have a technically-faultless, superior 1080p encode of a bastardized product.
07-14-14, 03:00 AM
#60
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
07-14-14, 10:29 AM
#61
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
07-14-14, 10:43 AM
#62
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it.
07-14-14, 11:04 AM
#63
DVD Talk Legend
07-14-14, 11:26 AM
#64
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.
This scene:
Looked more like this on my setup:
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
This scene:
Looked more like this on my setup:
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
07-14-14, 11:39 AM
#65
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
07-14-14, 11:41 AM
#66
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
You're going to have to direct me to that video. James Cameron's signature look in the 1980s was a "steely" blue color palette. Blue is not the same color as cyan or teal.
07-14-14, 11:46 AM
#67
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Well, I found this: http://www.terminatorfiles.net/forum...hp?f=27&t=5217
And a post there says:
That's all I could find with a quick google search.
And a post there says:
in the "Other Voices" documentary, James Cameron talks about Arnold's first day and says:
...Arnold walked in the first night and it was in the post-burn makeup, where his eyebrows were gone, and his hairline was back, and he had this kind of punked-out haircut, and we slammed him in the police car and we started shooting and we got that Adam Greenburg lighting with that cold, kind of cyan glow from below, and when we saw dailies the next day we just went, 'Oh, baby! This is... This is great!'
07-14-14, 11:52 AM
#68
Banned
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Terminator is different than Aliens. Terminator has specific scenes that have it, you could tell it was lit that way. Aliens had the knobs turned on the restoration.
07-14-14, 11:55 AM
#69
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
^^ That's the one, also there's this from Torsten Kaiser:
To be specific on THE TERMINATOR the cyan / bluish tones WERE very much part of the color palette, which was - on the original prints - in the DeLuxe process. But as opposed to the BD - on 35mm these were mostly COLOR / SHADE SPECIFIC and not as global as seen in many shots. However: note that the color re-timing, ideally, is done shot by shot and a simple setting of that LUT is not just applied to all shots with a single touch of a button.
In some shots of the new BD, the emphasis (saturation) on cyanish tones is a bit too much (but specifically night scenes were lit in cyan[!] so it has to be there), while in most, though not perfect for the reasons I stated the timing made are still pretty darn good, and on yet on few others again photochemical effects such as in the discotheque are (yet again) are, unfortunately, not fully realized to the original portential (see below).
Bottom line: DIs can be made cheaper, different, more precise in many ways, yes. Specific photochemical attributes, however, can still not be achieved digitally on many levels. That beauty is tied only to film. Note also that color processing on both analogue and digital fronts is also a matter of choice by the colorist and/or the people who ordered/supervised it. Before finalizing production - and after. The latter being the more complicated. A lot of people here would not believe how many films they have seen and grown to love in this specific "color palette" that are - in truth and reality - ABSOLUTELY WRONG in color representation/registration. Welcome to my world.
I'm pretty sure a that someone who actually handled the prints will know more than people that haven't seen them.
In some shots of the new BD, the emphasis (saturation) on cyanish tones is a bit too much (but specifically night scenes were lit in cyan[!] so it has to be there), while in most, though not perfect for the reasons I stated the timing made are still pretty darn good, and on yet on few others again photochemical effects such as in the discotheque are (yet again) are, unfortunately, not fully realized to the original portential (see below).
Bottom line: DIs can be made cheaper, different, more precise in many ways, yes. Specific photochemical attributes, however, can still not be achieved digitally on many levels. That beauty is tied only to film. Note also that color processing on both analogue and digital fronts is also a matter of choice by the colorist and/or the people who ordered/supervised it. Before finalizing production - and after. The latter being the more complicated. A lot of people here would not believe how many films they have seen and grown to love in this specific "color palette" that are - in truth and reality - ABSOLUTELY WRONG in color representation/registration. Welcome to my world.
I'm pretty sure a that someone who actually handled the prints will know more than people that haven't seen them.
07-14-14, 12:03 PM
#70
DVD Talk Reviewer
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
07-14-14, 01:05 PM
#71
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
07-14-14, 02:48 PM
#72
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
It's because they insist on shoving the extended cut down our throats. There isn't a true mono mix for those extended scenes since those were newly recorded with Eastwood and Wallich. Fox should of included both versions (mono on the theatrical cut) without fucking with the colors, little DNR, and a 4k scan. As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it.
07-14-14, 04:08 PM
#73
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.
This scene:
Looked more like this on my setup:
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
This scene:
Looked more like this on my setup:
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly. I remember when the fellowship of the ring nonsense was aired out then I got the BD and watched it and saw that it was a bunch of horse shit. I expect similar results with the Thief BD.
07-14-14, 10:17 PM
#74
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
!