Blu-ray Disc Player Thread

[caiman]

I have an older receiver without HDMI inputs. If I get a Bluray player that decodes HD audio and has 5.1 analog outputs, will I be getting the same sound quality from HD audio as I would with a newer HDMI capable receiver?

If the answer is yes, what player is recommended?

[Drexl]

Originally Posted by caiman

I have an older receiver without HDMI inputs. If I get a Bluray player that decodes HD audio and has 5.1 analog outputs, will I be getting the same sound quality from HD audio as I would with a newer HDMI capable receiver?

If the answer is yes, what player is recommended?

Yeah, pretty much. The only difference will be that the player's D/A converters will be used instead of the receiver's converters.

As for which player to recommend, personally I would wait for the upcoming Panasonic BD50, which is supposed to be able to decode DTS-HD MA in addition to PCM and Dolby TrueHD. If you get a current player, you'd be limited to the DTS core track on Fox and New Line titles.

[wergo]

Originally Posted by lizard

So far as I am aware, there aren't any BD players available in North America that play non-R1 DVDs. A PAL DVD should not work in a Region 1 BD player, even if it is Region 0. But others know more about this stuff than I do.

It has been reported that Oppo is working on a BD player. It is possible that such a player will be "region free" for DVDs. I don't know whether it would be allowed to be region free for BDs; might cause licensing issues with the BDA.

I presume that you know that PAL and NTSC do not apply to the High Def Blu-ray Disc format itself.

Yeah, I get that, but I have a lot of UK PAL Region music DVDs, and I'd like a Blu-Ray player to replace my standard DVD player, rather than to have to keep both plugged in to the TV and preamp simultaneously. Plus, you know, I'd like the upconversion feature on the player to apply to those discs.

And to be able to watch the non-HD bonus material on import Blu-Rays. Considering the lousy selection of non-action or kids' movies available (so far) on this side of the pond, I'm predicting that I'll be buying hundreds of import titles over the next few years. Surely I'm not the only one?

How about Japanese import players? Or possibly importing a European player and installing some kind of power adapter?

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by lizard

About what is expected for release date — they may be trying to get out ahead of Sony's players — but I would have liked a lower MSRP (and a price drop for the BD30), although that hasn't been Panasonic's style. Guess I'll hope for holiday discounts toward the end of the year.

If so, Panasonic better get these to stores ASAP. If the $399 price is true for Sony S350 and the $599 for the Panasonic BD50...its gonna be a tough sell for Panasonic. Sure, they may have a 2.0 player out of the box, but if all I need to do is stick a $10 1GB SD card in to make it 2.0 'll go that route. Plus it'll match my Sony SS2000 HTIB

[bunkaroo]

So the 350 is going to ship with the ethernet port but not enough onboard memory to be 2.0? That seems strange.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by bunkaroo

So the 350 is going to ship with the ethernet port but not enough onboard memory to be 2.0? That seems strange.

profile 2.0 only requires the capability for 1GB of persistent storage, so it will be truly 2.0 compliant even if it only has an SD card slot and not 1GB of onboard persistent storage.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by kefrank

profile 2.0 only requires the capability for 1GB of persistent storage, so it will be truly 2.0 compliant even if it only has an SD card slot and not 1GB of onboard persistent storage.

False?

2.0 requires an ethernet connection and 1GB of space (either onboard or via memory card).

But there have been a few players with ethernet connections and memory card readers yet they could not be upgradeable to 2.0. The player does not know to look their I guess?

[lizard]

I agree with kefrank, if a player has an ethernet port and a memory card slot it should be able to be upgraded to 2.0.

Will it? That depends on whether or not the manufacturer wants to make the necessary firmware changes. It may be some time before the Sony S350 gets the necessary firmware update to make it 2.0, if it ever does.


On the general topic of when these 2.0/lossless decoding players will be available, the rumor on AVS is that all the players seem to be delayed and are not hitting the dates previously reported. The problem apparently has to do with the difficulty in decoding DTS-HD Master Audio. It isn't just a software problem, it reportedly requires some pretty hefty hardware to implement. The PS3 has the hardware horsepower, but notice how long it took Sony to get the firmware knocked into shape to handle DTS-HD MA decoding. It is reported that Denon used some receiver chips in its BD players to get around the difficulty in handling DTS-HD MA decoding in its players (the 3800 is the only player that can decode DTS-HD MA and send it over both HDMI and analog). It is said that the Pioneer 05 will ship without DTS-HD MA capability and have that added later via fw update.

In short, the BD player manufacturers appear to be having considerable difficulty in building players that are full-featured. This is just rumor at this stage. But it explains the continued delays in the release of the BD players announced at the CES in January.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

False?

2.0 requires an ethernet connection and 1GB of space (either onboard or via memory card).

But there have been a few players with ethernet connections and memory card readers yet they could not be upgradeable to 2.0. The player does not know to look their I guess?

what lizard said. in addition to having the hardware specs, it also obviously has to have firmware that supports 2.0. i was just pointing out that not having 1GB onboard does not automatically mean the player is non-compliant with the hardware spec.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by wergo

Yeah, I get that, but I have a lot of UK PAL Region music DVDs, and I'd like a Blu-Ray player to replace my standard DVD player, rather than to have to keep both plugged in to the TV and preamp simultaneously. Plus, you know, I'd like the upconversion feature on the player to apply to those discs.

And to be able to watch the non-HD bonus material on import Blu-Rays. Considering the lousy selection of non-action or kids' movies available (so far) on this side of the pond, I'm predicting that I'll be buying hundreds of import titles over the next few years. Surely I'm not the only one?

How about Japanese import players? Or possibly importing a European player and installing some kind of power adapter?

I'm really not the one to advise about PAL, since I don't have any such discs. But I believe that buying a Japanese player wouldn't help because Japan is NTSC, IIRC. That may be why Japan and North America are both in Region A for Blu-ray Disc*. (Yes, BD has region coding, sucks doesn't it?)

As I understand it, the problem with buying a European player is not the power difference but the fact that it will output video at 50 Hz. Unless you also wanted to get a European display to match the player, it won't be a practical solution.

Perhaps Oppo will make a region free BD player that will suit your needs. Until then, I don't have any suggestions for you.


* [Yes, I know that NTSC/PAL doesn't apply to Blu-ray Disc, the issue is the SD features, if any, that are included on the discs, and whether they are NTSC/PAL.]

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by lizard

I agree with kefrank, if a player has an ethernet port and a memory card slot it should be able to be upgraded to 2.0.

Will it? That depends on whether or not the manufacturer wants to make the necessary firmware changes. It may be some time before the Sony S350 gets the necessary firmware update to make it 2.0, if it ever does.


On the general topic of when these 2.0/lossless decoding players will be available, the rumor on AVS is that all the players seem to be delayed and are not hitting the dates previously reported. The problem apparently has to do with the difficulty in decoding DTS-HD Master Audio. It isn't just a software problem, it reportedly requires some pretty hefty hardware to implement. The PS3 has the hardware horsepower, but notice how long it took Sony to get the firmware knocked into shape to handle DTS-HD MA decoding. It is reported that Denon used some receiver chips in its BD players to get around the difficulty in handling DTS-HD MA decoding in its players (the 3800 is the only player that can decode DTS-HD MA and send it over both HDMI and analog). It is said that the Pioneer 05 will ship without DTS-HD MA capability and have that added later via fw update.

In short, the BD player manufacturers appear to be having considerable difficulty in building players that are full-featured. This is just rumor at this stage. But it explains the continued delays in the release of the BD players announced at the CES in January.

I heard the same rumor in various BD Player threads over there as well. The BD50 looked and felt like it was complete in January...yet here we are, in April, with no official date or price.

[Mr. Cinema]

DTS internal decoding took awhile to get to DVD players. Looks like things haven't changed for BD. If Fox had used TrueHD audio, we wouldn't have to worry about DTS HD MA at all. Lossless is lossless, right?

I'd rather have the receiver do the decoding, which is next on my list of things to buy.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

I heard the same rumor in various BD Player threads over there as well. The BD50 looked and felt like it was complete in January...yet here we are, in April, with no official date or price.

True, that.

When I find myself getting annoyed at the incessant delays, I try to remember that there are practically no BD exclusive releases, thus far, that I actually want to buy. So it doesn't matter if I have to wait a few months or a year to get a player. But for those who do see BDs they want to watch, and don't want to settle for the PS3, it is becoming a problem.

[bunkaroo]

Originally Posted by kefrank

what lizard said. in addition to having the hardware specs, it also obviously has to have firmware that supports 2.0. i was just pointing out that not having 1GB onboard does not automatically mean the player is non-compliant with the hardware spec.

I guess I'm trying to figure out why they wouldn't just ship the machine with 1GB if they're going to bother giving it the ethernet port - the other part of being 2.0 compliant.

Is it cost cutting?

[bunkaroo]

IRT the difficulty of decoding DTS-HD MA, those Onkyo x05 series receivers may or may not be aware of an issue with some DTS-HD tracks bitstreamed from players - most commonly the BD30. The issue was dubbed by some as "the bitstream bomb". The Fly has the most prominent example of this issue - it is always reproducable at the same timecode.

I was able to successfully update my Onkyo 605 with a supplied wav file from Onkyo. You have to burn it as an audio CD and play it vian an opitcal jack to update the DSP on the receiver. Fun stuff, but it took care of the problem.

Just goes to show those designing receiver which decode DTS-HD last year apparently didn't have things nailed down either.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema

DTS internal decoding took awhile to get to DVD players. Looks like things haven't changed for BD. If Fox had used TrueHD audio, we wouldn't have to worry about DTS HD MA at all. Lossless is lossless, right?

I'd rather have the receiver do the decoding, which is next on my list of things to buy.

I entirely agree that it is a damn nuisance that Fox (and some other studios?) decided to use DTS-HD MA. I presume that they were paid off by DTS in some way, otherwise it makes no sense.

Lossless codecs should deliver the same result, by definition, whether it comes via Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. But there are pages of discussion at AVS over whether there are any "differences". One person believes that MA can be tweaked either by the encoder or by the user and that makes it "better". But I really don't want to get that nonsense started here.

My view on receivers is that I have a perfectly good one now and I refuse to throw it away just to take advantage of the new lossless codecs; the waste and expense in doing that just bugs me. The fact that my HD DVDs have been delivering lossless since late 2006 makes me even more annoyed at this silly dance by BD equipment manufacturers and the studios that chose to put DTS-HD MA on their discs.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by bunkaroo

I guess I'm trying to figure out why they wouldn't just ship the machine with 1GB if they're going to bother giving it the ethernet port - the other part of being 2.0 compliant.

Is it cost cutting?

i agree that it's puzzling. i mean, 1GB of flash memory these days can practically be had for pocket change. i guess if they were intent on including the SD slot anyway for other purposes, they may just figure there's no need to spend any more money on 1GB of internal persistent storage.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by bunkaroo

IRT the difficulty of decoding DTS-HD MA, those Onkyo x05 series receivers may or may not be aware of an issue with some DTS-HD tracks bitstreamed from players - most commonly the BD30. The issue was dubbed by some as "the bitstream bomb". The Fly has the most prominent example of this issue - it is always reproducable at the same timecode.

I was able to successfully update my Onkyo 605 with a supplied wav file from Onkyo. You have to burn it as an audio CD and play it vian an opitcal jack to update the DSP on the receiver. Fun stuff, but it took care of the problem.

Just goes to show those designing receiver which decode DTS-HD last year apparently didn't have things nailed down either.

Interesting. I've heard about the "bomb" but wasn't sure what the problem was. Am I surprised that even the receiver manufacturers are having trouble implementing DTS decoding? Not in the slightest.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by lizard

I entirely agree that it is a damn nuisance that Fox (and some other studios?) decided to use DTS-HD MA. I presume that they were paid off by DTS in some way, otherwise it makes no sense.

Lossless codecs should deliver the same result, by definition, whether it comes via Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. But there are pages of discussion at AVS over whether there are any "differences". One person believes that MA can be tweaked either by the encoder or by the user and that makes it "better". But I really don't want to get that nonsense started here.

My view on receivers is that I have a perfectly good one now and I refuse to throw it away just to take advantage of the new lossless codecs; the waste and expense in doing that just bugs me. The fact that my HD DVDs have been delivering lossless since late 2006 makes me even more annoyed at this silly dance by BD equipment manufacturers and the studios that chose to put DTS-HD MA on their discs.

Ive gone through those threads and have the same opinion. TrueHD = PCM = DTS MA. If we got a group of people together in the same room and had them both watch the same movie 2 times with TrueHD/PCM and DTS MA, no one could tell the difference. Its just a shiny word that makes it seem like its better. The only reason I even care about it is because Fox decided to use DTS MA since day one and excluded any other sound options with the exception of Dolby Digital 5.1. Has any other studio used DTS MA only track? I know Pans on HD DVD did (and I think the Blu-ray as well)?

I'm still debating between the BD50 and the S350. I guess it all depends what comes out first. On a slightly different note...is their any Blu-ray SA player that has a backlit/glow remote control?

[lizard]

Originally Posted by kefrank

i agree that it's puzzling. i mean, 1GB of flash memory these days can practically be had for pocket change. i guess if they were intent on including the SD slot anyway for other purposes, they may just figure there's no need to spend any more money on 1GB of internal persistent storage.

In the case of the Sony S350/S550, I think the difference is a marketing decision. It "appears" as if the S350 will be capable of being upgraded to 2.0. But Sony wants those interested in 2.0 (and lossless over analog outs) to wait for — and pay for — the S550. They may be making the S350 future proof, but when or if they upgrade it remains to be seen.

But a lot of this is guesswork based on the S350 being reported to have an ethernet connection.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by lizard

In the case of the Sony S350/S550, I think the difference is a marketing decision. It "appears" as if the S350 will be capable of being upgraded to 2.0. But Sony wants those interested in 2.0 (and lossless over analog outs) to wait for — and pay for — the S550. They may be making the S350 future proof, but when or if they upgrade it remains to be seen.

But a lot of this is guesswork based on the S350 being reported to have an ethernet connection.

How can that not release a 2.0 player at this point, or at least one being capable of being upgradeable? IIRC, someone mentioned getting a 1GB SD/Duo card and making it 2.0...so an ethernet connection would have to be present.

Guess we will know when it eventual shows up.

[Mr. Cinema]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

Ive gone through those threads and have the same opinion. TrueHD = PCM = DTS MA. If we got a group of people together in the same room and had them both watch the same movie 2 times with TrueHD/PCM and DTS MA, no one could tell the difference. Its just a shiny word that makes it seem like its better. The only reason I even care about it is because Fox decided to use DTS MA since day one and excluded any other sound options with the exception of Dolby Digital 5.1. Has any other studio used DTS MA only track? I know Pans on HD DVD did (and I think the Blu-ray as well)?

I'm still debating between the BD50 and the S350. I guess it all depends what comes out first. On a slightly different note...is their any Blu-ray SA player that has a backlit/glow remote control?

I believe all of New Line's releases have been DTS HD MA. Close Encounters of the Third Kind also has it, but that's likely due to Spielberg's involvement with the birth of DTS.

Strangely enough, Image Entertainment is releasing Before the Devil Knows You're Dead tomorrow, and it also has a DTS HD MA track.

[bunkaroo]

Fox seems to have used DTS a lot more in the past on DVD than other studios. Maybe they just decided to continue the relationship.

[wesferrell]

What units seem to do the best job of up-grading SD discs. Having a substantial investment in sd discs, and knowing that it will be years, if ever, that the older movies will get a facelift, this feature is most important to me. I do have a HDMI receiver.

[GizmoDVD]

Samsung 1200 has the Reon chip (found in the Toshiba XA2). That is by far the best one available, even though the player is no longer made. I wouldn't count on it for Blu-ray playback though...