acdcrocks1980

I would not be suprised at all if Boy Meets World Season 5,6, and 7 sell better then season 2, 3, and 4.
Boy Meets World was way better when they were in College then when they were in high school.

mdnitoil

Every studio rep I've ever read a quote from, including the Shout guy who shows up on various boards, all say the same thing, which is TV sales always drop with each subsequent season. They all claim it's not only predictable, but you can practically calculate which season you start taking a loss. Given that, why in the world would any company put out something when they know they're going to lose money? Sure, it sucks when the lose money point happens before all the seasons come out, but can you really blame them for not releasing it?

dolphinboy

So, Shout! picked up Mad About You after Sony dumped it after 3 seasons-with a 3 year gap, because they thought that they could make some quick cash on seasons 4 and 5, before choosing to not release (or have any plan to release) the last 2 seasons?

I doubt that's how it went.

mdnitoil

They picked up seasons 4 and 5, put them out, saw the returns and decided it wasn't worth pursuing the final two seasons based on projected revenues. They were going to have to pay Sony a license fee for those last two seasons, so they obviously decided that it wasn't worth it.

The mistake you seem to be making is assuming that Shout paid for the rights to the rest of the entire series when they actually got the rights for just the seasons they released, with an option for later seasons. They didn't exercise the option because they projected an overall loss. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

davidh777

I predict Mad About You would lose money starting with the baby years because those were horrible.

I don't doubt that buyer fatigue plays a big part in sales dropping off, but you're also looking at creator fatigue from the original run. Many long-running series took big quality dips in the later seasons. I'd still buy all of Family Ties, but the Tracy Pollan years are what I really wanted--her debut is still some of my all-time favorite TV.

We've long considered Shout! our savior for rescuing abandoned TV shows. I'm not at all surprised that they're crunching the numbers and reconsidering. Have I done my part and bought all their releases? No, guilty as charged.

Lastdaysofrain

I've bought just about every "classic" TV series Shout has put out, even ones I knew didn't hold up (Webster, Small Wonder) but I don't expect other people to. I'm embarassed everytime I read their message board. It's filled with completely insane rantings of lunatics who act like it is their right to these shows. Although I suspect that a lot of the posters have some sort of autism or other developmental or mental health issue, based on some of the things they say.

That being the case, even the people without an excuse such as that tend to say things to similar (but less extreme) effect. Nobody releases shows as a favor to you, or for the art of it, it's simple business. If it doesn't sell enough to turn a profit, they won't release it, it's as simple as that. When you license a show you don't license every season at once, the networks that own them would be stupid to do a deal like that. If the numbers don't add up, the show doesn't come out. Would I like to see the remaining seasons of these shows (or any seasons of some others) released? Absolutely. But I don't take it as a personal slight when they don't come out, or some weird personal vendetta consipracy that these labels/networks have.

dolphinboy

You must work for Shout! They told me, "We'd love to continue releasing the future seasons of Mad About You but we currently don't have the licensing rights."

WE'D LOVE TO.

That doesn't suggest they crunched numbers and saw a loss. Unless you think that they lied to me.

Personally, I think it's obnoxious that people post things where they assume they know more than they really do. No one believes they are entitled to anything, but when you release a series on dvd, I think they is a little bit of a responsibility (a social contract) to your customers to do everything you can to finish off the release. I gave them my money for 3 seasons of something, they ought not just stop, knowing full well that they did take in money from people who now have 1/2 the story.

Some of their releases will make good money, some won't. Studios release small movies that they know might not make their money back because they also release movies that make 400 million dollar profits.

I've heard F Troop is out. Really, they turned a profit on that, but couldn't find a way to make money, or break even, on the final few seasons of PO5, Mad About You, or Family Ties?

Pfft.

mdnitoil

Did they say, "We are tried to get the licensing rights but Sony just won't give them up"? I followed that exact same thread and there was a deafening silence on any followup. Believe whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that those two seasons aren't coming out any time soon.

F Troop was a different matter altogether. There are only two seasons and if the first makes money, Warner releases the second season. The only way that series wasn't going to get finished is if sales on the first season completely sucked, which they must not have.

dolphinboy

I don't think Shout! is going to give anyone the inside scoop of whether Sony won't give them up, they're asking too much, or how much profit Shout! made from seasons 4 and 5. But there's the rub. If it's all about profit and Shout! was happy with seasons 4 and 5 and Sony wasn't going to release the show's last 4 seasons anyway, why wouldn't both companies just make a deal. For Sony, some money is better than none.

They play games with this stuff and I get they all want to make more and more money, but they should have some respect for the fans too. What am I supposed to do with 1/2 of Party of Five? Why would I want to wait years to see the last 2 seasons of Mad About You? And Family Ties is a friggin' classic, so they should have released that just on principle alone.

rmw650

Bottom line guys...it's all coming down to numbers and what makes them a profit and what doesn't. I have to admit some of the shows they've already released such as Webster and Small Wonder haven't really produced/generated enough sales to warrant future releases but through reading these threads and the ones over at Shout (when the site wants to load properly), it's all based on how much the studio owners/rights holders would want to charge companies like SHout to attain those rights and produce the DVDs. Not a fan of Shout overcharging on the sets either, but if it's exclusive to their store, then what can you do if you truly and really want the sets? I hope they will complete Rhoda and maybe Green Acres but it's all based on number crunching and how they negotiate with the rights holders that determine if the remaining seasons of a show will see the light of day or not. It's a process.

davidh777

The future of these is probably in disc-on-demand, streaming, or syndication

JeffTheAlpaca

What I don't understand is why CBS released it when the show originally ran on NBC?

davidh777

Because broadcast rights are different from home-video rights. You will see Fox releasing a lot of Fox-aired shows, but Warner has Fringe and Terminator SCC. Warner will have a lot of CW shows, but they didn't have Dawson's Creek, which aired on the WB. Many more examples exist, but the end bumper after the final credits will tell you a lot more about the rights holder than the channel it's airing on.

rmw650

I hope it doesn't resort or even come to that David but who knows anymore.

You might just be right in what you say but I would like to see these series completed, if anything, just to know we have the shows we want done.

Spottedfeather

There is nothing wrong with disc on demand. I wish people would quit saying that. Just because you don't buy it in a physical store doesn't make it any less good.

rmw650

That has nothing to do with where you buy them. Look, it might be fine for you but to a lot of others who like the traditional aspect of it, that's what we most fear as a result if it comes to this. I have no issues with the MOD as long as it's a good quality product and they don't charge up the wazoo for them. Some might be good but not all of them, just saying.

Spottedfeather

There's no difference between ordering manufacture on demand dvds and ordering so called regular dvds. What traditional aspect ? Buying them from stores ? So what if you can't buy the dvds in stores ? You can still get them, can't you ?

whotony

HUB isn't just on directv it's also on several other providers including Fios and Comcast.

I would by a complete set of Family Ties I loved that show.

wz42

Yeah yeah...it's not viable financially to release season after season...sales dips are proven after a few seasons...sure...ok.

It's this nonsense that's stopped me from buying TV on DVD unless it's a) A complete series or b) a current, ongoing, series since that'll be virtually certain to have continual releases.

If Shout Factory and the gang are concerned about the money they should consider the money their losing by abandoning series mid release.

wz42

Oh and why, if this stuff is so worthless to release on a major lable, why don't they just licence out these orphan seasons to some shitty company that makes discs for dollar stores? Put 4 eps on each disc.

All sorts of crap movies that can't sell on a real label (aside from public domain) wind up on dollar store or Wal-Mart discount bin labels.

rmw650

Oh really? Here's an example for you...Flipper S1 where you can get that anywhere for between $10-$30 (approx) versus the Flipper Season 2 MOD disc set for $55-$65 (approx). Now compare apples and oranges and you tell me would you pay the latter for S2 on MOD-designed discs versus S1 on traditionally-pressed discs? (I know it's a different season but let's skip that argument for now). Now unless you have an inordinate amount of money to spend on this stuff, more power to you but again, if you're paying 55-65 a crack for those DVDs, it better damn well be produced with the utmost of care, that's what I'm saying here. Again, it works for you but not for all.

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

What they said fits in exactly with what was said earlier, if you read between the lines.

We'd love to continue releasing the future seasons of Mad About You(assuming we could make a profit) but we currently don't have the licensing rights(because we aren't going to license something that won't make a profit).

davidh777

I think you're starting to see that already with major-studio movies being licensed to Echo Bridge and Mill Creek. As far as TV, I think Warner/New Line had Wanted Dead or Alive then licensed it to BCI or Mill Creek.

But there's also the mentality of "value"--studios are deathly afraid of devaluing their product so people start to equate "one episode = 25 cents." That's why the big furor over Redbox making new-release movies = $1 and Big Lots making complete seasons = $3 (when they were supposed to have been destroyed unsold).

Never mind that Warner has been a leader in making their catalog movies $5.98 and their catalog Blu $8.99.

EDIT: See also recent thread about Mill Creek getting Roseanne, That '70s Show, and others

rmw650

Great points Mr. Peepers. Well stated and it's the truth. Shout people like Brian Ward and Cliff Lee want to put a proper spin on this without them getting out the real reasons why they can't or won't release the remaining seasons...it's all about making a profit like any other business, not for the sake of completion of a series. If they can make money, they'll do so but if not, then why bother in their opinion. Some studios are an ass to deal with while others are good to deal with so they need to negotiate as best as they can to secure those rights but not overpay for them. Just not a fan of them passing those higher prices to the customers in the end. It's just putting two and two together to make proper sense out of all this.

dolphinboy

Who was the genius at Shout! who saw Sony not make a profit for 3 seasons and decided they could make a profit for seasons 4 and 5? Really, 4 made a ton and 5 flopped? Why not stop after season 4 if the same inability to make a profit was shown for season 4. Or was season 4 of Mad About You the only season to make a profit?

I still say it's crap. These companies have every right to make a profit, but selling me something that basically leaves me screwed is not the way to do it. I should have to shell out my money for 5 seasons of a show, that has only 2 more left to go, only to find out suddenly no one thinks they can make a profit, yet I take the loss for having purchased something I won't ever be able to finish.

Didn't this show make a lot of money for Sony before they ever thought to release it on DVD? Is All The Right Moves going to make money on blu-ray? If so, then it can't be too difficult to do something cheap, then sell enough copies to make some money. If this is really such a big problem, then don't release the show unless you are committed to releasing all of it. I own the last season of Northern Exposure and, in my opinion, it's crap compared to the rest of the series and I'd bet it made less than any other season. But at least I can watch the show from beginning to end.


EDITED to add the e-mail that I received from Shout! today. They should have stopped after season 4. I don't believe sales were good for only season 4 or that they were willing to take a loss...just this one time only. I like Shout!, but I still think shows should be finished or not released.