Alan Smithee

To be fair, the quality of most of Warner's MODs are more like a real disc than something recorded off cable. But, so are copied DVDs, and we all know those are bad.

Albert71292

I've had too many CD-Rs and DVD-Rs fail after a few years to EVER feel comfortable paying as much as they want for those movies, no matter HOW bad I'd want it.

If they reach, say, a $5 price point, I MIGHT bite... until then... no way!

Pizza

Apples and oranges. (I hate that expression but it seemed appropriate.) A DVD-R is still a DVD-R in my book. Maybe the video is comparable,I don't know since I've never done a comparison. My biggest concern is their durability. Ink dries up and I've read about many folks having playback issues. And, at the price they want, forget it. Even the sale prices are weak in my opinion.
And, I am certainly not advocating copying someone else's DVDs.
I have no issues with folks who enjoy MODs. Live and let live and buy as many of them as you want. I'm not stopping you and there are certainly some great titles available. Which brings me back to the topic of this thread.

I just heard about Razorback. Definitely would have bought the DVD of this.

Jay G.

The video of a DVD-R should be identical to a pressed DVD, as their capacities are similar and they use the same video file and encoding scheme.

There is no ink in a DVD, so there's no liquid to dry up (isn't ink drying typically a good thing anyway?). There may be durability concerns due to the thermally sensitive dye layer though.

However, some of the playback issues aren't due to durability but comparability. Earlier DVD players weren't designed with DVD+-R in mind, and so some have playback issues. What's more, Warner MOD discs use a special form of CSS for DVD-Rs that wasn't part of the original spec, so more recent players and drives may have issues with this.
http://www.wbshop.com/Warner-Archive...efault,pg.html

Pizza

Okay. I said ink instead of dye.
And I personally believe that playback issues are both: quality and compatibility. But, I'm no expert and I'm not pretending to be.
With that, the thread title says it all and it is being derailed a bit. For those who want to continue the debate of MODs vs DVDs, please start another thread.

Jay G.

You also wrote "dries." There are non-liquid dyes. The dye in a DVD-R does not ever suffer from drying out.

The debate of MODs vs DVDs started early on in this thread, before the 7th post (although Lemmy has deleted his original posts that started the debate). It's as good a place as any to have the debate, since the thread is predicated on the assumption that DVD-R is inferior to DVD.

To be clear though; I'm not pro DVD-R. I was merely correcting mistakes in your post.

Trevor

Agreed. This thread is a perfect place for the debate.

Also, I hate it when people delete or make massive edits to posts. Should be a way for the software to save the original version for context.

Pizza

I stand corrected. Debate away.

And it's not an assumption. DVD is better than DVD-R.

Pizza

Why, Trevor? If someone wants to delete what they said, they should have the right to do so. I don't see that as a big deal. There's nothing sacred being said here, it's just a posting board. Sometimes people post something they regret, or to simply get a reaction or realize that their comment doesn't fit the discussion. Ultimately, why care if it gets deleted?

I was reading the Fright Night thread in the HD board and find it interesting that Sony is licensing some of their movies that they don't want to release to other companies as limited Blu-rays. The prices suck but I'd rather pay the premium and get a beloved movie this way than on MOD. I ordered Mysterious Island and will also order Fright Night when available. Now, I'm not saying that I would order every MOD title that I'd want in this fashion, but there are a few, such as Doc Savage, that I would. It'll be interesting to see what else gets released in this fashion.

And Jay G. sorry to say ink instead of dye and drying out etc. That's just how my brain processed that information. I basically remember reading somewhere there is an issue with the "dye" used in CD-Rs and DVD-Rs. Maybe it evaporates over time or degrades. I technically used the wrong words in describing the weakness of DVD-Rs.

Jay G.

Because it's annoying and cause confusion in the thread, since others may have responded to the original post without quoting, or not quoting all of it. For example, in this thread, Lemmy's original posts were removed, but the quotes people made in their posts still exit, even with links back to the now non-existent posts. It makes the thread harder to read and understand for someone just starting it. As Trevor wrote, it's about context.

Ironically, fully deleting posts may put someone in even worse light than their original posts did, since people may have only quoted parts of the posts they disagreed with, meaning any salient points that person made are gone, and all that are left are the embarrassing ones they were trying to remove. Or, someone may have quoted them out of context, which would be clear if the original post still existed.

Far better is to do as you have done regarding the dye/ink confusion. You've left your original statement intact, but have acknowledged the correction in a later post. Or one could edit the original post, but leave the original text, perhaps with a strikethrough, and add a comment at the bottom acknowledging the change.

This is an interesting alternative. Of course, that thread is full of people complaining about the higher price point, so not everyone shares your sentiment:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/594...2-13-11-a.html

Also, the limited release run means that there may no be enough copies for everyone that wants one. While MOD at least guarantees that everyone who wants a copy will get one.

You're closer to the truth here. I posted this a while back in the thread, going into how DVD-R and pressed DVDs differ:

Pizza

That's the one potential advantage to MOD, unlimited copies. But time will tell if that holds up. As for Fright Night, I'd imagine at the price point it is at, there will be enough for those, like myself, who want it to get it.

As for editing posts, the majority don't go too far back into a thread, usually reading the last couple of posts. Granted a few do read an entire thread later in the game, but not enough, in my opinion, to be a concern.

Jay G.

I'm not sure Trevor was speaking for anyone other than himself. However, like him, I tend to read a thread from the beginning, unless it's ridiculously long or something like an ongoing general deals thread, where the earlier posts are no longer relevant.

As for whether Trevor and I are in the minority, that's hard to say. You seem to speak with certainty when you say that "the majority" don't go far back in a thread. However, I highly doubt you have any numbers to back that up. You're essentially guessing on how the majority act.

Furthermore, it doesn't even matter how the majority act of what they prefer, as long as the minority preference is sizable enough to make the change worthwhile, especially if the change doesn't negatively affect the majority of people. After all, if the majority don't read the beginning, then it doesn't matter to them if it contains posts that people later regretted making, and the people who made those posts should just console themselves that very few people would be reading them.

Finally, while the example in this thread was posts are the beginning of the thread, it's entirely possible for users to edit or delete posts that are very recent and near the end. For example, if you had deleted your initial post about DVD "ink" after learning of your mistake, and possibly some subsequent posts referring to it as well, then my recent posts would not make sense to people reading just the end of this thread.

As an aside, Lemmy's posts have not been completely eradicated from the net. Archive.org has a copy of an earlier version of this thread, before he deleted his posts:
http://web.archive.org/web/201003310...ead-dvd-r.html

Jay G.

It's really hard to judge demand though. The UK Battle Royale Blu-ray set was a limited edition release, and the company releasing it, Arrow, thought that they had set the release size correctly, but demand greatly exceeded their expectations (likely because it was region free), and they doubled the print run before it was even released.
http://www.horrordvds.com/vb3forum/s...42&postcount=3

Then there was the Director's Cut of Army of Darkness. Anchor Bay initially released it as part of an 2-Disc LE. Then demand was so high that they released it as a 1-disc LE, then a non-LE "bootleg" 1-disc, then as part of another 2-disc release.

Then there was the Beatles Mono CD Box Set. Originally supposed to be a limited edition of only 10,000 copies, the set sold-out in pre-orders. EMI then stated that they were going to press additional copies, supposedly still a limited number, but the set's now hit Platinum and has no signs of going OOP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bea...imited_edition

Like the latter examples illustrate, it's always possible for a "limited edition" run of a DVD or Blu-ray to be followed up with later editions or runs. However, these later runs are not guaranteed, and prices can escalate in the meantime, or leave the door open for bootleggers (as happened with the Beatles Mono Box). MOD simply doesn't ever have this restriction. There are always going to be enough copies for those that want one.

Finally, the pricing of an LE run can cause the inverse of your reaction: people who may have bought it as a MOD title for less, but who won't pay the premium for a pressed copy.

Pizza

It is my opinion and I feel good about it. Nope, no major research, just my gut which I trust. You don't have to agree and I respect that. But, I hardly find this a topic worth doing any real research. I don't feel as strongly as you and Trevor do. Still, feel free to do some fact finding and share your findings. I'll read what you come up with.
All the same, this is much ado about nothing. I view most threads and posts as just opinions. Most people don't sit down and study up on the topics and find all the hard cold facts. It just people, like myself, posting what's on their mind. Take it with a grain of salt.
Now, if an outside source was editing threads (other than Mods cleaning up a fight or something) and changing what folks said, I'd be more up in arms. And, as you have pointed out, there's always archive.org for the curious.

Pizza

I'm not really debating this issue with you. My point was simply that Fright Night is on the pricey side, so less demand. That's all. Judging by the prevous mentioned thread, most aren't biting. But, maybe a bunch of folks will. I don't really know. I actually hope it does sell out, then maybe more titles will get released.
Battle Royale was pretty cheap, bought one myself. It's also not available in the US which also drives up demand from here. The mono box sort of became unlimited, like you said, so I don't know what your point is there.
And, i said before, the one potential advantage to MOD is unlimited copies. But, in fairness, time will tell if they wil remain unlimited.

Trevor

Pizza,

Jay did a great job of explaining my thinking on the matter of deleting posts. It's context. It's easy to make someone look like an idiot by changing or deleting the text that they were replying to. When I post in a thread, it's because of the whole conversation that is taking place, be it a single post thread or a multiple page one.

The ability to change thread titles was removed for this reason, but it's the same principle with posts. Sure, the problem is alleviated somewhat if people used the quote feature more; but that gets bulky, particularly if you quote every post with a nuance of what you're replying about.

For example, if you and Jay deleted your posts, I'd look like an idiot. Not that I always need help with that....

Personally, whenever I change anything other than a slight typo or edit for clarification, I put the original in spoiler tags at the bottom of the post, or use strikethru text. I also try to use that "reason for editing:" box.

Jay G.

There's a difference between stating an opinion and stating an absolute. When you stated that "the majority of users" act a certain way, that's stating an absolute. Either it's true or it's not, it's not a matter of opinion. It's also unknown, since nobody has done any polling on the subject, but that doesn't mean it's not an absolute.

If you want to state opinions, that's fine. Just be sure to state that you're speaking for yourself instead of trying to place an unknowable "majority" on your side of the argument.

There's not always archive.org. They don't archive everything. For example, there was a old thread here about a user's first viewing of all of Buffy The Vampie Slayer that was popular. It got deleted somehow (not by the thread starter), and archive.org only archived pages 1, 2, 3, and 5 of the 6 page thread:
http://web.archive.org/web/200505021...11331-p-1.html

So it's not a 100% reliable backup. Even when they do back up a page, they don't back it up every day, so it's possible for someone to make a post, then edit or delete it, before it ever gets archived on that site.


Yes, you are.

Higher prices does mean less demand. But it doesn't mean the demand is lower than the supply. Also, the idea of raising prices to curb demand is probably antithetical to most consumer's preferences for paying as little as possible. After all, you started this thread with a post that stated in it:

So even you find paying a premium for a pressed disc unappealing.

It was a reasonable price, if one managed to get a copy while it was still in stock. Now used copies are going for $150:
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Royale-...dp/B003ZIZ2HK/

My point was that it's really difficult to judge demand, and distributors have shown that they'd underestimated demand in the past, putting Limited Editions outside the reach of even those willing to pay the premium price for them. It's a problem MOD doesn't has to deal with for releases.

They're unlimited as long as the service remains in business. However, I don't think studios will be offering burn-on-demand DVD services indefinitely. They may eventually move to burned Blu-rays, then likely to just online downloads.

Jay G.

I just noticed that this made its way into your signature.

It's likely true that, in general, a pressed DVD is more durable and will have better longevity than a DVD-R. There may be certain brands of DVD-Rs that will prove to have real longevity, and there have certainly been bad pressings of discs that have caused them to deteriorate over time. It's still too early in the lifespan of either product to know for sure how long each will last, but it seems likely that DVDs will, in general, last longer than DVD-Rs. Whether this will matter in the long run is a matter of debate though, since if a DVD-R lasts an average of 30 years, it may have lasted long past its usefulness as a consumer media, and thus the improved longevity of DVD is a moot point as they both head for the recycler.

In terms of compatibility, pressed DVDs have already demonstrated markedly better compatibility with various DVD players. So, with everything else being equal (price, features, video quality, availability, etc), a consumer would most likely prefer a pressed DVD over a DVD-R.

However, a pressed DVD isn't always better. For example, if you wanted to make a copy of a home video onto DVD, you'd likely choose a DVD-R. While possible, sending the video into a production plant to be pressed to DVD for one or two copies would be too cost prohibitive, not to mention the time and effort involved. In this case, DVD-R wins out as the more affordable and convenient solution.

For these studios, the situation is similar to you and your home videos in choosing the method of distribution of certain titles. Will it sell well enough to justify the costs of pressing and distributing a few thousand copies of it? Will enough people buy it at it's original MSRP before they have to price cut it? Or is it better to just put the title on MOD, and let the output meet the demand?

Dr Mabuse

'Ruggles of Red Gap'
'Sometimes A Great Notion' (I have the PAL DVD release but I'd get it)

Pizza

Of course. I've also said the same a few posts above. See the quote below.
And that's my point, I'm willing to pay it to get a movie that I love on DVD and/or Blu-ray rather than not because it's only available on MOD.

Yes, true, but I'm not discussing homemade videos. I'm talking about commercially released discs.

I see. True MOD doesn't deal with that. But I prefer Apple's decision to just press more on quality CDs and not CD-Rs.[/QUOTE]

Such drama over nothing.

No I'm not.

Pizza

What posts are you talking about? I don't see any posts.

Seriously, if people pull that kind of nonsense in debates here then it's not worth worrying about it.

Trevor

Oh, I'm not worried about it or think any of this conversation is that important.

But since the point was brought up, and I had an opinion on it, and this is a discussion forum, I chimed in.

Any thread here has the potential to become a thread that gets hundreds of posts and lasts for years. It does no one any favors to delete any of the context. Not trying to sound overly dramatic there, but I'm sure you see my point.

Pizza

When I said, "here," I meant dvdtalk.com not this specific thread. I realize this thread is of little significance, which is why I'm surprised there's any kind of debate here in the first place.

JerryKILL

I was thinking about MODs today. I have way too many, and just bought more in the one day WAC sale when they were $10 each. I worry that one day these MOD programs may be discontinued. Inevitably the price would shoot up astronomically because of the limited pressings and cult nature of the films in the programs. For example, "Special Bulletin" is the only WAC title I can think of that actually got discontinued, and it is currently listed at $60 used/$175 new on Amazon. No completed listings on eBay, so tough to say if those prices accurately reflect what is being paid. Nonetheless, I think most titles in the WAC library would command steep prices if they ever went out of print. Just something to think about, I have no idea how well these MOD programs are doing financially and if there is even a chance of them ending.

rw2516

I've blind bought several of the Archive titles when I can get them for $10. If the movie sucks I turn around and put it on Amazon used, priced so that I get at least my $10 back after fees. They always sell in a couple days.