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Old 06-03-03, 09:52 PM   #1
Giallofan
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To all Criterion Aficionado's. How can you spot a real or fake "The Killer" C.C. DVD?

I had just bid and won a Criterion Coll. dvd of "The Killer". I don't want to mention the price, to avoid feeling like a smuck, in case it's a fake, but it was pretty steep. I had NO idea until a little while ago on another forum I belong to where I mentioned it, and people told me there were a ton of fakes of this dvd going around on Ebay, and some kind folks told me I should come onto this forum to ask, because there were more experts on this particular release over here, because I guess from what some say, it's been discussed on here before?

This particular person i won it off of is from Canada, and still has 3 or 4 others for sale, and they are sealed. She told me that the isbn, and catolog numbers match what it's supposed to be, and also includes the insert. I kind of wondered how did she know that if it is sealed, but that's besides the point.

If these dvd's are so cleverly disguised how would I be able to tell if it's a boot or not? Can someone tell me if the dvd itself has a picture on it, or if it's clear, or anything like that? Also are there any distinct things I should look for? I'll flip if this things a fake for what I paid for it. More than likely with 5 or so copies to sell that are all sealed, I probably got taken? There was one person on there selling it also saying that he had an actual "official" dvd of this movie, and to watch out for fakes, because there were alot going around Ebay. I found that one after I had already won this one, and that's what got me suspicious about it.

Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 06-04-03, 12:37 AM   #2
DarthMaul420
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Don't feel bad about the price as I also paid a boat load for a then sealed copy.

1. The Cover Art "paper" is not exactly High Gloss paper. Some of Criterion's first releases used a somewhat duller paper. They still look very similiar though. This is the easiest part to bootleg IMO.

2. Yes, if memory serves me correct the disc should have the ISBN on it. Look for a White Frosted center as well. The rest of the disc should be two different shades of silver. One is mirror like and seems to photograph black. "The Killer" is imprinted on it. There is no photograph on the disc!

3. Make sure it has a chapter list Insert.

4. Most real copies sell between 150-300 on Ebay.
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Old 06-04-03, 12:47 AM   #3
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Yes, I did notice one on there like I said in my earlier thread, that one did sell for like $120. To be honest I won mine for $92, w/ shipping costs. Or I might say, lost mine for $92. lol.

Anyway, if this does happen to be a bootleg, do you think I could possibly get a refund? I suppose if I try nicely at first, and point out that boots are illegal, and throw in a couple of honest to goodness legal threats, in a nice way, maybe she would huh?
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Old 06-04-03, 12:56 AM   #4
DarthMaul420
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I'm not exactly sure if it still works but I have emailed Ebay in the past to try and help me regarding bootleg material someone has sent me. It's worth a shot.

BTW, welcome to the board.
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Old 06-04-03, 01:13 AM   #5
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The easiest way to tell the difference is the disks, the bootleg usually features the cover artwork on the disk. the real one looks like darth maul said, its got kinda a reflective look, and just says the killer criterion collection and the some catolog numbers. also some criterion dvd's have stickers on top that denote they are criterion, although the killer may have come out before that.

ive delt with bootleggers before on ebay. the best bet is just to not honor the auction out of bootleg feer and take the negative feedback. if you did pay, and recieve a boot, email the person and demand a refund and pressure them with negative feedback. negative feedback usually is enough to get a refund out of a bootlegger because it ruins their whole way of selling their product.

hope that helps, keep us posted if its a boot.

good luck
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Old 06-04-03, 01:29 AM   #6
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Thank you. I'm sure I'll enjoy it here.

I also noticed on this person's link on Ebay, who I believe is a poster on here called "WaskyDiver", that there's also boots out there of Seven Samurai also? I won one of those on Ebay also, but for alot less, I think it was $24 w/ shipping. My cover looks the same as the "real" one, except that on the right hand side near this old gentleman's face, my pic on my dvd kind of cuts off near the top of his ear. Whereas the pic on that site showed pretty much all his ear. I don't know if that's any indication though? It has an insert booklet in it, and the dvd has a pic on it of a group of 4 Samurai, in black & white, almost kind of see through, and is colored green on top with the movie title in it, inclu. Akira Kurosawa's name. Has one guy on the right side clutching his head in his hands. The dvd itself also has the Criterion Collection inscription on it, and I read on the inside circle of the dvd and it says, Seven Samurai layer 1, and Seven Samurai layer 0. And I see this is a dual-layer disc, does that mean anything?

Now I'm getting all paranoid about these things. I also just won a "Silence Of The Lambs", and a "RoboCop" C.C. dvd's, both used, from a respectable seller with many good feedbacks. I haven't received them yet though, as it was only a couple of days ago that I won them. Then I hear that "Lambs" is another boot that's around? WOW! How can people do this to other's amazes me? Now I want to get "John Woo's other movie on C.C., "Hard Boiled", but I'm doing my homework first. There's one person with alot of good feedback that has that now on Ebay, and it's up around $90 or so. I'll hold off for now, and see what this Killer dvd turns out to be first.

Thanks for all your help DarthMaul. It'll hopefully help me identify if that's an authentic one or not. My intuition though tells me different.
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Old 06-04-03, 06:50 AM   #7
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I've posted a similar question. You may want to do a search on "bootleg". Sorry, I'm too lazy at the moment. You may also want to check out http://www.criteriondvd.com/bootlegs.asp, which is where some of waskydiver's info came from, and I believe is suggested on his page.
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Old 06-04-03, 08:21 AM   #8
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i think i know who you are talking about because i was considering purchasing from the same person, but decided not to risk it.

and not to hijack this thread, but are there any silence of the lambs bootlegs that do come with an insert? and also, is the picture on the disc is supposed to show hannibal's eyes? or do some bootlegs show that as well?
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Old 06-04-03, 08:46 AM   #9
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If you need further help let me know. I'll check over my copy for you.

The only SS bootleg I have seen is the "DTS" version but I havn't looked since I bought my copy.

I also havn't seen many Hardboiled boots but that doesn't mean they are not out there.
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Old 06-04-03, 01:23 PM   #10
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Re: To all Criterion Aficionado's. How can you spot a real or fake "The Killer" C.C. DVD?

Quote:
Originally posted by Giallofan
This particular person i won it off of is from Canada, and still has 3 or 4 others for sale, and they are sealed. She told me that the isbn, and catolog numbers match what it's supposed to be, and also includes the insert. I kind of wondered how did she know that if it is sealed, but that's besides the point.
If they are sealed, how does she know they contain inserts?
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Old 06-04-03, 01:33 PM   #11
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Some advice about Ebay problems from the Criterion Collection Forum .

Text of an email & reponse from Criterion's Jon Mulvaney about The Killer bootlegs, also from CCF :
Quote:
Hi Jon,

I hope you can help me with this. I don't want buy a bootleg or imported version.

I am still looking for an Killer Criterion DVD and as you are probably aware of there are many imports and bootlegs.
I want to buy an original US released version.

So far I know that the disc itself shouldn't be with coloroured printings.
But I have now run into two person's who both claim to have an authentic version. I have named them person 1 and 2.
With my e-mail you'll find two images of both persons of their Killer Criterion DVD.
From what I know the printings (title, other text and blood) on the disc should be black if faced straight above the disc. But if you look in a certain angle it becomes grey (like the color of the disc).
This is the case with the images of person 1. However with the images of person 2 it always stays grey.

Could you please point out what to me what the real version is so I know for the future what to look for.

Thanks a lot.

Best,
Robert-Jan

-----------------------------------------------
Dear Robert-Jan,


The few copies of THE KILLER we have around the office have silver text and blood imagery on a silver disc. None have black text on silver. However, this does not definitely mean that a disc with black text is a bootleg. Perhaps some were printed with black text (although I tend to doubt it).


Hope this helps.
JM

--------------------------------------------------

More details:
In the meanwhile I found out that an original should indeed have grey text and blood as JM points out,
but when you hold a light above it (like a lamp) the grey text and blood turns to black!

Hopes this will help all of you who is still looking for a authentic Killer Criterion DVD.

Robert
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Old 06-04-03, 02:05 PM   #12
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Thanks for that thread "Film Fan Sea". Everyone on here has been so helpful, I'm almost overwhelmed by the response I received. All of you have been more than helpful, and guiding me to these sites where they have info on these topics of bootlegs, and also from what you people know about them also.

The woman I sent payment to, as of yet, has NOT received it, because it was by an e-check. However, it was already taken out of my bank account, so I'm sure it's on it's way. I just haven't received any confirmation yet from Paypal that it's cleared. I did e-mail her very early this morning, (3am), because I couldn't sleep, and explained at this time I couldn't purchase the dvd because of some personal problems that just arose. Of course this isn't true, just a minor white lie, but hopefully she'll buy it? And if she could possibly give me a refund once the money arrives in her account? So far, I haven't heard anything.

Everything that was in the thread that "Film Fan Sea", posted, I pretty much did. I asked the seller before bidding if this was a "legit" Criterion. She also posted on her auction the isbn, and cat. #. I asked her if this matched the case's back cover? She said yes. She also said that she only buys from Collector's and stores in Canada. Well that's not saying much. She's answered all my e-mails, and seemed real concerned that I receive the dvd in excellent cond. And that I was happy with it, and to leave her "excellent", (as she puts it), feedback.

I personally don't know what to think? Maybe she purchased these off of someone, not knowing herself that these are/or possibly bootlegs? Or just putting up a good front?
I also notice that the people who "don't" have alot of feedback, are the ones bidding on these. With the exception of maybe 1 or 2. Which basically tells me that these other people obviously know better, or already have them? My guess is that they know better.

Isn't this truly awful that people find the need to rip-off others like this? I guess where there's a demand there's the product. Almost like getting my favorite Cuban Cigar, the Cohiba.You have to watch and do your homework of who you're dealing with. If I found a box of Cohiba Robustos for $250, I know it would be to good to be true. Thankfully I NEVER gotten taken from anyone with those.

Sorry to get off the topic in question. I just want to thank everyone out here who gave me their input. I will be sure to stay with this forum for a time to come. And I'll keep the board posted on what's going on with this.
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Old 06-04-03, 02:11 PM   #13
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The Silence of the Lambs and Robocop you won are legit, I KNOW.....
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Old 06-04-03, 03:22 PM   #14
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try http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/waskydiver

You could also email him.
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Old 06-04-03, 06:30 PM   #15
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Well people, I have a little bit of an update here.

The woman that I had won The Criterion Collection, "The Killer" off of, had just e-mailed me back right now. If you read my previous thread, I mentioned how I wrote her an e-mail asking if I could possibly have a refund because of some personal matter that just came up. She just e-mailed me and said sure, I will refund your money when it comes into my account, no problem. She also asked if I could cancel myself to save all the trouble? I just wrote back telling her, unfortunetley, NO! BTW, this was an e-check I had sent her that hadn't cleared yet, because I just won it on Sunday. But the money's already out of my account. I think the clear date is the 4th or 5th?

So, I'm a little relieved for the moment. Now, hopefully she will follow through with her words and do it. This woman really has answered every e-mail I have sent to her, and has been as truthful as she could be, I guess? She has this dvd, or had, along with about 4 other Killer C.C. for auction on Ebay, and they are all sealed. She put the info on the auction with the Cat. #, and ISBN. Never really stressed the fact that it was an "Authentic" dvd though. The thing that made me think was when she told me that it included an insert. I thought, how does she know this if they are all sealed? She did write back telling me that she owned one herself. Which still, from what I heard does not qualify it as being authentic.

I think it would have been a real problem to get a refund had I received it, and opened it. That's the first time I ever paid with an e-check on Ebay also. Maybe someone was trying to tell me something? Having had a little wait like this for the e-check to clear, I guess was to my benefit?

Now I'm thinking I hope I did the right thing? I guess I'd rather be safe then sorry though. From what people on here say, and others I've talked to about this particular dvd, I think I made the right choice? What would really be the chances of this dvd being "legit" when this woman is selling 5 sealed copies? I'm starting to wonder, maybe this woman don't even really know, or suspect herself, that these may well be bootlegs? When I told her in an e-mail about how rare this dvd is to come by, and how many bootlegs or imports there may be of this dvd, all she said was that she buys only off of Collector's and stores in Canada, (that's where she's from). How does she know these so called collector's are not scam artists themselves, and she's just not aware of these being bootlegs?

I'm just speculating, and there's way to many, what if's? I'm kind of sad that I'm not going to get it, but I know I'd be incredibly peed off if I did and found out it was a bootleg. $92 is just too much for me to just throw away, or take any chances at this. I can only imagine the rage some of you people felt if you received one of these, for a substantial price, and found out it was a bootleg? Like I said, I'm sad about it, but hopefully someday I'll come across a "legit" copy?

I'll post once more, when and hopefully I get my refund. I think I will though, she gives me no reason to believe she won't do it. Thanks again for everyones help. I've learned alot about the Criterion boots that are out there. I'm usually not one to get something put over on me either, but this one almost nailed me.
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Old 06-04-03, 06:41 PM   #16
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Look at it this way. If she is selling OOP titles on ebay she should know what a legit copy goes for. Much more than 90 bucks. If in fact she knows they are real she should just open one and take pictures and sell the other four sealed. She would make a heck of a lot more than 90 bucks each!
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Old 06-04-03, 08:25 PM   #17
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That's definetly something the woman should have considered, DarthMaul? Apparently, there's probably a reason she didn't?

She just sent another e-mail asking if I could leave her some positive feedback, saying I received the dvd and was happy with it? Because she hasn't got much feedback, something like 7, I think? I told her once I receive my refund, I will. Hopefully she'll do the same though?

There was another seller, I don't know if they're still on there with them or what, that was auctioning a C.C. of The Killer, and they were from Canada also. And noticed that person also had a very low feedback, something like 9. I'm wondering if it's possible someone could go under 2 different names, or maybe it's a couple, using 2 different names selling all those Killer dvd's?

A question to the board. I don't think I asked this earlier, as my mind has been reeling over this in the past 24hrs.

Does anyone out here know anyone, or maybe even yourself, who has won an auction on Ebay for The Killer C.C., from a seller who had multiple copies, sealed or otherwise, and it turned out to be Authentic? I can't imagine the odds being too high on that, after what I've heard about this particular release? Any input would be most helpful. Thanks
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Old 06-04-03, 08:58 PM   #18
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It would be a shame for you give feedback saying that you got the DVD and were satisfied. Especially since you were too unsure to even complete the deal. It would be misleading and sucker some other person. She does sound shady from that request.

Perhaps you could say she was a very cooperative seller or something about her helping you out when you had a problem completing the deal.
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Old 06-04-03, 09:29 PM   #19
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She asked me to leave her some positive feedback, saying I received the dvd and was happy with it. I told her I would.

I did not specify that I was going to leave her exactly as she asked. I told her I would leave feedback, and that was it. I have no intention of saying that I received something I didn't, and give her the chance at taking some other unsuspecting person. I'd be just about as low, and no better than her, if I did. If these are indeed bootlegs. I was thinking of putting just about what you mentioned, that she was cooperative, and very helpful, and that's about it. I'm definetly not going to praise the woman.

Perhaps I didn't quite explain myself so well in that last post. That's my problem, I talk alot, but have a hard time getting across what I'm saying. Sorry if that seemed like I was trying to enable this woman, and draw people into that web, because I'm not. I dispise people who try doing this to others. They are lower than low. Matter of fact if I see someone selling a known bootleg on Ebay, and I see people bidding on it, I'll e-mail those people telling them that it's one.

Just got an e-mail right now. It's from Paypal saying that my e-check finally cleared and it's in the seller's account. I gotta run, and go send her another e-mail and give her a friendly reminder that it's there. I know they send her one also, but just want her to know that I know also. I'll let the board know what the final verdict will be.
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Old 06-04-03, 11:23 PM   #20
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That's good to hear!

If she is so sure that what she has is genuine perhaps she would be willing to do some sort of escrow type deal. I believe ebay has something like that for a little more cost.
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Old 06-05-03, 12:38 AM   #21
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I have to share this with the board about this particular seller on Ebay that I "won" The Killer C.C. dvd off of.

I just went over to Ebay, and now see on her list of items for auction 2 more sealed Killer C.C. dvd's. She also has a double wammy going now for an exclusive 3 day auction, where she is auctioning off a sealed, no less, dvd of The Killer, and Hard Boiled, also sealed. She now says that they contain "Chapter Inserts", and notes they are authentic Criterion dvd's. Funny that she listed it that way after I brought it up to her huh? She says she got really lucky lately and came up with these 2 together. And she only has 3 for auction total. Meaning 3 Killer's I guess? Boy, it must have slipped her mind about the other 3 she's since sold while on there? Also get this one. This is a quote from her site. "I have decided to sell my one & only Salo Criterion dvd. I have never opened this dvd, it is still sealed". She claims this dvd was bought as an investment many years ago. Boy how did she know that this would be a worthy investment at the time? Maybe she can see the future? Or maybe it was already OOP, and she got it at the great price of about $50?

All kidding aside, I'm so happy you people on here told me about The Killer C.C. release and how heavly it's bootlegged. I think I would definetly have been a casualty of this woman? Now the "Salo" dvd? What's the chances of coming across a sealed copy of this? How long has that one been OOP? She claims it's the authentic one with the 24 chapters, and the "white ring". Come on. I hear that ones a heavily bootleg dvd also?

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going over there and bidding on that "Authentic" Salo dvd from her. Hell, she even said if you were not satisfied, that she would gladly refund your money. What's to lose? Probably about $500 when she NEVER answers your e-mails asking for a refund. Or she'll probably close down "Zoomyzoo", (that's the name she goes by, by the way), and never hear from her again. This one will probably go to the high bidder for like $80. Hopefully no one's gullible enough to go for it though? Are the Salo bootleg dvd's anything like the authentic Criterion's, by the way? That's another I have no idea about. But I don't think I have to worry about coming around an authentic one anytime soon?

I'll definetly do my homework from now on. Now only if she'll give me my refund, I'd be alot more calm.

By the way, I hope I didn't break any DVDTALK rules by mentioning that person's name? And talking about all the other crap, oops, I meant items, she had for auction?
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Old 06-05-03, 02:02 AM   #22
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How does she know her Salo has a white ring if she never opened it?
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Old 06-05-03, 02:18 AM   #23
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Wow. She has auctioned or is auctioning 15 killers and 3 salos. She must've found that secret stash that we can only dream of finding.
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Old 06-05-03, 02:49 AM   #24
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That's what I thought, how does she know about the "White Ring" if it's sealed? Maybe she used her Authentic Criterion Issued X-Ray glasses? Spine # 201? LOL.
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Old 06-11-03, 11:00 AM   #25
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Anyone know about Criterion Hard Boiled bootlegs?
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