Star Wars DVD change?

[Breakfast with Girls]

Originally posted by milo bloom
Yep. Woman's face, with monkey eyes and Clive Reveill voicing.

No. At least no woman I've ever met. Harping on Empire Strikes Back's Emperor as being a woman makes as much sense as saying the same about Greedo.

That's a mask, not a makeup job.

[Playitagainsam]

I have the Original Trilogy on LD. I'm also glad I downloaded (through a certain popular BitTorrent site I won't mention here) the DVDs made from the OT LDs by someone else, with better technology than what I have. They're probably the best ever version we'll ever see on DVD, outside of an official release. It's like Bob Dylan's 'Basement Tapes' album... These changes, whether rumoured or real, coming after the changes seen in the SE versions, make me sick. No matter how much people will say "it's Lucas' baby, he can do whatever he pleases", the fact is revisionism is anti-cultural....

[bothanspy]

I'll add a couple of things. 1 story related, and 1 Lucas related.

Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).

Lucas related- I've given up being angry with respect to the tinkering of the films. If you really think about it, these films will remain timeless. When the next generation comes in, they are not going to care about SE vs OT vs SSE...etc. They will just enjoy the films as they are. How many people here raise a stink about the lost cuts of the Blues Brothers, The Good the Bad and the Ugly, Manchurian Candidate, Gone with The Wind, etc. As time passes, people will forget.

Long after he passes, Lucas will only be remembered for these six films. Granted, he controls a media empire that extends into special effects, gaming and anything else you can think of. But after he's gone, these films are the only thing that will remain. If he wants to make them how he wants now, sobeit. He's already sucked the money out of us. He's looking to the future. He's looking to make sure his movies don't fade away (forgive the pun). While I disagree with him, I think I understand it.

Back to the bickering.

[GuessWho]

Originally posted by bothanspy
I'll add a couple of things. 1 story related, and 1 Lucas related.

Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).

The Emperor was always mentioned in Episode IV

I believe there's a line stating that "The Emperor has dissolved the Senate" and maybe another mention or two

[flyboy]

Yeah Tarkin mentioned him and I think Vader did once....

[ZackR]

Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).

I agree for the most part...that is if "4-6" Trilogy is watched first. Same goes for the "Luke's father" thing. All the suspense there is shattered by the prequel trilogy. Once part 3 is out, if someone watches the entire saga from Ep1-6, much of the impact of certain points in the "4-6" trilogy will be lost, because all the surprises will be spelled out for you by the Prequel Trilogy. Who is Luke's father? No question there. Dramatic emphasis lost. Who is Yoda? When Luke lands on the planet and Yoda says, "Take you to him I will," you will already know that it is actually Yoda speaking. Who is Luke's sister? Umm, well that will most likely be obvious after Ep3, but I suppose George Lucas could choose to only show Luke's twin and not name her....
When my son (now 4 months old) is old enough to watch and enjoy Star Wars for the first time, I will show him the "4-6 Trilogy" first and then later show him the prequels and tell him they are sort of a "back story" to Star Wars. I will show him Ep4-6 (which to me are really the only true SW movies) and then show him 1-3 and tell him they basically give you more info on what happened in Star Wars. If I show him Eps 1-3 first, then all the dramatic impact of those films will be lost! Don't get me wrong, I do not HATE the prequels, I just think they ruin some of the greatest elements of surprise and drama in the Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents.

[Kal-El]

Originally posted by Breakfast with Girls
No. At least no woman I've ever met. Harping on Empire Strikes Back's Emperor as being a woman makes as much sense as saying the same about Greedo.

Kersh and Lucas have said in several interviews that I've read and too lazy to look up now that it was a woman and an Orangutan or some such primate's eyes superimposed on her. Can't really get any more official than those 2 right? This is no urban legend that us Star Wars fans believe blindly. This is something that's been known for awhile now.

[Zman]

Originally posted by ZackR
Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents.

I couldn't agree more.

[Mike Lowrey]

Originally posted by ZackR
I agree for the most part...that is if "4-6" Trilogy is watched first. Same goes for the "Luke's father" thing. All the suspense there is shattered by the prequel trilogy. Once part 3 is out, if someone watches the entire saga from Ep1-6, much of the impact of certain points in the "4-6" trilogy will be lost, because all the surprises will be spelled out for you by the Prequel Trilogy. Who is Luke's father? No question there. Dramatic emphasis lost. Who is Yoda? When Luke lands on the planet and Yoda says, "Take you to him I will," you will already know that it is actually Yoda speaking. Who is Luke's sister? Umm, well that will most likely be obvious after Ep3, but I suppose George Lucas could choose to only show Luke's twin and not name her....
When my son (now 4 months old) is old enough to watch and enjoy Star Wars for the first time, I will show him the "4-6 Trilogy" first and then later show him the prequels and tell him they are sort of a "back story" to Star Wars. I will show him Ep4-6 (which to me are really the only true SW movies) and then show him 1-3 and tell him they basically give you more info on what happened in Star Wars. If I show him Eps 1-3 first, then all the dramatic impact of those films will be lost! Don't get me wrong, I do not HATE the prequels, I just think they ruin some of the greatest elements of surprise and drama in the Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents.

Some excellent points there. You're right. Some very suspenseful moments of truth in the OT will be complete destroyed by knowledge gained in the PT. So yeah, you're right, showing the Star Wars saga to someone new would be beneficial to show them the OT first and the PT to help explain the back story that was mentioned in the OT.

Another example would be the whole "Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi...including Luke's father." thing. As well as him being a fighter pilot during the Clone Wars.

Well anyway, it's going to be interesting if Lucas has changed any of this dialogue in the OT to be more in line with the chronology established in the PT.

[Artman]

Hey Breakfast - pretty neat pics, I'd never seen those before. Any more good behind-the-scene ones like that?

[Spiky]

Thank god I have the LDs. I should've acquired an Iscan to watch this stuff better, maybe it's time to visit Ebay....

The issue for many of us will ALWAYS be:
If they would clean up the OT and put it on a DVD, they can do whatever the hell they want to the SE with no complaints. But genius has stated that he 'messed up' the original originals in making the SE and refuses to try putting out the OT. If true, this is stupid. If lies, it's still stupid. (note: I didn't say anything about my childhood....it's just STUPID)

I will get the SE set, but it's a different version of the movie. They don't fit together at all. Just like I have both theatrical and EE of LOTR, but I don't swap between the 2 versions when watching them. They are different movies.

[Terrell]

Long after he passes, Lucas will only be remembered for these six films.

Um, no! That really is a misguided statement. George Lucas will be remembered for Star Wars of course. But he will also be remembered for Indiana Jones, which he created. He'll be remembered for American Graffiti and THX-1138, both truly great films. He'll be remembered for creating Willow as well, which is not a great film, but an entertaining one.

Not only will he be remembered for his films, he'll be remembered for ILM and Skywalker Sound, the premiere post-production facilities in the world. Lucas has had a major impact on the film industry, in many areas. Lucas revolutionized film effects with his creation of ILM and his pioneering effects work in Star Wars. Without his contributions, effects may very well be 10 years behind where they are today. Many in the VES seem to think so. Many of the films made today wouldn't even be possible. Don't even get me started on how he impacted the film industry when it comes to sound. Don't forget LucasArts. He will be remember in the videogame world as well.

Digital filmmaking is another area where he's had a huge impact on filmmaking. Not only pushing digital technology to get better, but to get it in theaters for a myriad of reasons. It's not at it's full potention yet, but he's gone a long way to improving it by leaps and bounds by working directly with Sony, Panavision, Toshiba, and Fujinon. I also believe Lucas had a hand in Avid.

I know some Star Wars fans have grown to hate Lucas. I'm also sure some misguided fans will only remember him only for Star Wars. But to the people that matter, his place in film history is secure.

Besides, he has many years ahead of him. He will make more films after Episode III is over.

[Terrell]

I will get the SE set, but it's a different version of the movie.

I don't agree at all. They are the same films. One is just tweaked. The tone and character of the SEs are the same as the originals. They still look, sound, and feel like the original Star Wars films.

[Playitagainsam]

The funny part is... if the moron (Lucas) would put BOTH versions on DVD, most people (even those really upset by the SE's) would end up buying both versions... Can't he really see that?

[Terrell]

Can't he really see that?

Well, I'm not sure he is convinced that the overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans would buy his vision if the originals were released. I think he believes that if he puts his new visions out there, that only a minority of fans would only buy the originals.

I think he's also trying to keep the price of this box set at a reasonable level so casual and mainstream movie fans will buy it. If he included the originals, that would add 3 more discs to the set, making it a 7 disc set. Then the box would retail for well over $100, basically cutting a huge hole in sales. Many casual movie fans wouldn't buy a $100+ DVD box set, even if it is Star Wars. Look no further than the Alien Quadrilogy. Nice sales for such a huge box set, but nowhere near the numbers both he and Fox want. Seamless branching wouldn't work on these DVDs. Too many changes and scene recompositions have been made.

I imagine you'll get the originals someday. But he's going to make sure his vision is seen by the masses first. Then he's likely to put the originals out, meaning even more money.

[Qui Gon Jim]

Originally posted by Terrell
Well, I'm not sure he is convinced that the overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans would buy his vision if the originals were released. I think he believes that if he puts his new visions out there, that only a minority of fans would only buy the originals.

I think he's also trying to keep the price of this box set at a reasonable level so casual and mainstream movie fans will buy it. If he included the originals, that would add 3 more discs to the set, making it a 7 disc set. Then the box would retail for well over $100, basically cutting a huge hole in sales. Many casual movie fans wouldn't buy a $100+ DVD box set, even if it is Star Wars. Look no further than the Alien Quadrilogy. Nice sales for such a huge box set, but nowhere near the numbers both he and Fox want. Seamless branching wouldn't work on these DVDs. Too many changes and scene recompositions have been made.

I imagine you'll get the originals someday. But he's going to make sure his vision is seen by the masses first. Then he's likely to put the originals out, meaning even more money.

Excellent analysis and I want to add that releasing the original cuts next to the SE in seperate boxes would totally confuse the market. J6P is confused enough by WS/PS.

Patience! The original cuts will come in time.

[flyboy]

Originally posted by Qui Gon Jim
Excellent analysis and I want to add that releasing the original cuts next to the SE in seperate boxes would totally confuse the market. J6P is confused enough by WS/PS.

Patience! The original cuts will come in time.

No they won't as they NO LONGER EXIST. I want them too but we have been told they are gone...I think we all need to accept that fact and finally move on....

[emhello]

Stop overreacting people. I'm sure these won't be as bad as you think.

[Mike Lowrey]

Originally posted by emhello
Stop overreacting people. I'm sure these won't be as bad as you think.

My setiments exactly. I'm sure once the reviews come out on A/V quality and even the changes, both subtle and contraversal, that this set won't be nearly as bad as everyone seems to think it'll be.

Personally I can't wait for this set just for the improvements in A/V quality and visual effects.

[Cartload]

You'd think it would have been easier for him to make the prequels fit with what was established in the OT instead of revising the OT to fit with the PT. I guess I'd be wrong. Just my two cents.

I'll be there on September 21st to pick this up. It should be a feast for sight and sound.

[ckolchak]

Originally posted by Terrell
I don't agree at all. They are the same films. One is just tweaked. The tone and character of the SEs are the same as the originals. They still look, sound, and feel like the original Star Wars films.

for me, it's never been a question of
Model effects vs cgi- or enhanced sunsets, etc.
i could probably even live with a superfluous extension to the "Looks sir, droids" scene-
but there are more than several scenes in these films where the inclusion of unneccessary detail alters the tone and focus of the scene.

it's one thing to have a howling moving dewback in the background as the camera pans off them and over to the meat of the scene (the stormtrooper holding up the evidence of droids).
i would always prefer the scene as it has been burned into my cortex...the original pace of how it is intergrated to scenes fore and aft, will always seem more appropriate to me.
but its something that wouldn't take me a major effort to get over/look past.

however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

[kajs]

Originally posted by ckolchak
however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

You hit the nail on the head. A crummy cgi Ronto walking past the camera in a classic scene is very pointless...but this arguement will only be greeted with "It's his movie, he can do what he wants with it!"

[Playitagainsam]

... not to mention the entire Jabba in the docking bay is absolutely useless and repetitive, with almost exactly the same dialogue as the scene between Han and Greedo...

[Mike Lowrey]

Originally posted by ckolchak
for me, it's never been a question of
Model effects vs cgi- or enhanced sunsets, etc.
i could probably even live with a superfluous extension to the "Looks sir, droids" scene-
but there are more than several scenes in these films where the inclusion of unneccessary detail alters the tone and focus of the scene.

it's one thing to have a howling moving dewback in the background as the camera pans off them and over to the meat of the scene (the stormtrooper holding up the evidence of droids).
i would always prefer the scene as it has been burned into my cortex...the original pace of how it is intergrated to scenes fore and aft, will always seem more appropriate to me.
but its something that wouldn't take me a major effort to get over/look past.

however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

I'd reply to this post, but quite frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean really...you lost me there. The extended Dewback scene really destroyed the flow of the scene there to the previous and following scenes? Sorry, I don't see it.

[Mike Lowrey]

Originally posted by Playitagainsam
... not to mention the entire Jabba in the docking bay is absolutely useless and repetitive, with almost exactly the same dialogue as the scene between Han and Greedo...

Which may explain why that scene was cut to begin with. However, you all do understand that scene was originally shot back in '76 with a big fat guy as a stand-in for Jabba, right?