Mike Lowrey

Yeah, you're right. It's all doom & gloom. The world's going to hell. The '77 version will never be available again. Well NEWSFLASH, it never was. The Episode number and ANH title were added in the '79 theatrical re-release. Of course this change in superficial in the over-all scheme of things, but I don't think any serious-thinking rational person could still just call Star Wars, "STAR WARS" when Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980. In fact, being that TESB was being made in '79 when the SW theatrical re-release was being done, Lucasfilm correctly changed the naming style of this saga.

Like I said in a previous thread a while back, changing the name of STAR WARS to Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope is no different than changing the name of "The Great War" to "World War I" when World War II started.

But I don't see one problem with digitally enhancing some effects, backgrounds, to do things that simply weren't technically possible when they were made.

It's no different that why some movies, such as the LOTR Trilogy, simply couldn't have been done until now without the use of digital technology. Think a LOTR trilogy could have been made in 1975? Hardly. But of course, you'd say, "Well, someone could just remake it." OK, well, couldn't someone just say (of which they actually have), "Why doesn't Lucas just remake the originals?" The answer to that is, "WHY?" All he's doing is updating them enough so that they'll appear at least "compatible" with the PT.

All this ranting and raving about, "Oh how Lucas is raping my childhood" or "Lucas is ruining film history, etc. etc" sounds like a bunch of whiney little spoiled kids who get a new car of the same model of their previous one, but complain that the new one has two more gadgets on it that their older one does, by screaming, "They ruined automotive history!"

bboisvert

Mike -- just curious... what change would push you over the edge? That is, what ISN'T okay to do to a film?

He's not just updating effects, backgrounds, and technical stuff... he's replacing actors in the film (for Palpatine and Anakin). He's overdubbing others (for Boba Fett). He's changing the entire tone of some scenes (Han shooting first, Luke screaming after letting himself fall in ESB). He's adding stuff that he thought of just recently (Naboo to RotJ celebration) and was never in the original script.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm honestly wondering... is there anything that Lucas could do where you'd finally say "Jeez, this is getting out of hand, he's ruining a movie I love". Or is it all OK?

(This question actually applies to anyone who thinks the SE changes and these new ones are fine... especially in light of the fact that Lucas is keeping the original version out of circulation. At what point does this cease to be "Star Wars" to you and actually becomes a different film?)

ChrisHicks

maybe Emmanuel Lewis can replace Yoda too.

Kal-El

I know by saying this that I'll be steering the thread into old, dead-horse-beaten-to-death territory but to answer the question, that's the thing. It's not my call. I don't expect anybody from LFL to call me and go, "hey, is this ok if we did this?" He can do whatever he wants to do with the movies, whether I end up paying up for it and supporting it is another matter altogether. But to indulge you, for me I guess if he were to digitally add elements that weren't there in '77 for more than 50% of what's seen in the film. I dunno if that made sense. Hehe. Basically if let's say he suddenly made Dagobah NOT a swamp anymore. Or put Bespin on Kamino. Something of that magnitude. Replacing Shaw in a less than 10-second shot with Hayden doesn't bother me. Replacing Bobba Fett's voice doesn't bother me. Remove him from the film altogether for all I care. Show Naboo with the celebrations at the end? Go ahead. Maybe that'll finally shut up those who still admantly claim that Naboo becomes Dagobah. I think this is going to be a case-by-case basis. What may be ok for me I'm sure won't be ok with most of you. We'll never have a consensus on this thing methinks so I prefer to enjoy the DVDs, although I do plan on skipping the chapter that has Jedi Rocks in the ROTJ disc.

chanster

Wow. What a totally unconvincing argument. No changes were made to the 79 release except for the opening and possibly a few random sound effects. If you want to sit around and nitpick, well go ahead, but there is a big difference between adding titles and completely stripping and adding to the movie (the 97 SE's and 04 SE SE).

And for the record, I was just a kid when the movies originally came out, but I have always referred to ANH as "Star Wars" I think a lot of people did as well..there was Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

chanster

And for the record, Boba Fett had some pretty fun lines in the trilogy..so yes they are memorable and I thought the voice actor did a great job with them. Replacing them with a new actor is just lame.

Kal-El

So what's the problem then? If you, me and a host of others refer to them as that, how does 3 new words affect your viewing experience? Just because they changed it in the crawl doesn't mean we have to call it that as well right?

Kal-El

When I was still subscribed to the Insider, they enumerated all his lines. All 4 of them if I'm not mistaken. Then they added "What the...AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" as the fifth, if that was a line. All I can remember right now is "He's worth a lot to me alive" or something like that. Personally, I don't find it funny. What were the other 3? If it's anything just like that, I don't see how five lines from a secondary character would be the ones to stick out for you when there's Han, Yoda, Vader and the Emperor who all spout much more memorable lines. To each their own.

chanster

It doesn't affect my viewing experience at all. I was referring to Mike's post who decided to get really nitpicky and say the "original" version of SW (or ANH) has never been available because the 79 re-release was the source of home video options up until the Special Editions.

chanster

And as far as number of lines, so what? In the original Terminator, Arnold speaks about the same number of lines, but they are all classics. Judging by number of lines means absolutely nothing.

Kal-El

I wasn't judging by the number of lines and the Arnold comparison is flawed as The Terminator was the main villain in those movies(heck, the movie is named after him even), while Bobba Fett was not in Star Wars. But going back to my point, it wasn't the number of lines he said. It's that it's such a small piece of a much bigger pie that has more "goodies" if you will so why nibble at that part? And I'm not telling anybody NOT to enjoy them, but to just look at the bigger picture.

Mike Lowrey

OK, I'll bite...let's see....

If you're referring to the TESB emperor hologram replacement with Ian McDiarmid, then I have absolutely NO problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I was hoping for it to be changed in the '97 version.

And the rumored Hayden replacement for the old guy in the ROTJ ghost, that I don't agree with. NOT because of the replacement, but because of the change in the idea that Jedis' ghost look as if they did when they were in their prime, NOT as they die.

Is he? We don't know that for sure. But even if that's so, and it's due to the revelations in Ep. II as to where Boba Fett came from, then so beit for continuity sake.

Yes, yes....the Han shoots first thing....can I say, "BIG DEAL!!!" Does it change Han's character a little? Yes. But does it totally sway the way I view the rest of the trilogy? No. I just don't dwell on things that mean dittily shit on the over-all grand scheme of things.

Basically, I think the only people who truely worry about this scene are those who had an over-infactuation with the Han Solo character. The Star Wars story was always about the change in the balance in the Force concerning the Skywalker family. Not about whether or not Han Solo was a billy bad ass.

Luke always screamed when he fell in that scene. Was the pitch changed from the original to the SE? Yes, a little, but I just chalked that up to a remastering bit, NOT a politically correct issue.

The revelation of the events of the Empire Strikes Back weren't in the script of Star Wars either. Adding Naboo is perfectly fine now that Naboo is canon in the Star Wars saga.

Most of it is OK, with the exception of massive changes like calling Cloud City, "the big top in the sky".

Look, if it doesn't totally screw with continuity, then it's fine with me. What I want are six movies that when viewed together appear to be one long continuous saga that gels with consistance. And that consistance being in both story line and visual style.

Not updating the look of the OT would be like saying that Star Trek: TOS is the sequal series to Star Trek: TNG. I know, not quite the same but you get the idea. The original movie, Star Wars had such a late-'70s look to it that it just didn't fit in with even Empire, much less the current prequals. I mean you had lamb chops on the men, big triangular collars on Aunt Beru, and computer screens that looked like something out of Buck Rogers. And then in the prequals we see computer screens similar to what we see in modern Trek.

In fact, I wished they could digitally remove those lamb chops on the men. You see, these faults DATE the original movie. These movies should be timeless, no? Seeing late-70s hair and clothing styles kill the timeless image.

They become different films when the plot, characters, and places change. Is the new THX 1138 George Lucas Director's Cut a different film? No, same film, new up-dated effects.

Playitagainsam

Quick question - I might not be "getting" a cultural reference... what "lamb chops" are you talking about?

emhello

Bottom line is the fanboys will be the first ones buying this set regardless of what changes are made.

bboisvert

I guess what I'm asking (rather inelegantly, I suppose) is can Lucas do something specific that would upset the people that seem to say "Big Deal!" when something is changed... like adding Hayden 'for 10 seconds' or making Greedo shoot first.

Let me give a specific example. Episode I mentions 'midichlorians' for Jedi powers. This term does not appear anywhere in the original trilogy. What if Lucas considered that to be a big mistake, and he went back and had a new actor overdub all of Alec Guinness' lines. And he digitally altered Obi-Wan's lips in one scene to make him refer to a Jedi's midichlorian count. This doesn't radically change the plot -- plus it keeps it consistent with the prequel trilogy. But is that OK? Is removing an actor's performance that has been part of the film for 30+ years acceptable?

Kal-El -- I understand what you are saying about "It's not my call", but I disagree. People become personally involved in good works of art. That is, after all, why people usually create art in the first place. At some point, I think it becomes unacceptable for an artist to alter his work at the expense of people being able to experience the original. Whether he legally/morally 'owns' it or not.

It's revisionist thinking... Lucas isn't the same man he was when he put pen to paper in 1972 to make this thing. I think the prequels are showing that pretty clearly... he's rethinking stuff as he goes along. Should a 25+ year old film series that is beloved by millions now be forever altered because Lucas changed his mind decades later?

My usually hypothetical applies. If the director of King Kong were still alive and decided to replace the klunky 'dated' Kong with something more CGI and 'timeless'... not a single person in the world would consider this to be a good thing. Yet, somehow, Star Wars gets a pass on this from a fairly large number of people. I honestly don't get it.


And, yes, I'll be buying the set. I'm not in boycott mode or anything... I don't hate Lucas. I don't bash Lucas. I think Lucas has done more good for the state of film than most people in the past 50 years. But as a lifelong fan of these films, I can't help but be incredibly dissapointed that what I'll be seeing in anamorphic widescreen, 6.1 sound this September will be so radically different than what was originally presented.

Porthos

Dang Nabit!!!

Does this mean I have to "acquire" a copy of the SE DVD's as well?!?

John

PS: For the humor imparied, I am not advocating bootleging. However.... I just KNOW that Star Wars Completists out there will now be scurring for DVD copies of the SE. Legal or not.

Please tell me I'm wrong.

madcougar

Man I want to buy these movies. I NEED to buy these movies. I was 7 when Star Wars came out and I freaking loved it. Everytime Lucas has made a change I've basically just grimaced and let it go. But he is REALLY changing the heart of the movie, to the point where I am going to have a tough time laying my money down for this. I know that talk of bootlegs is a big no-no here, but I think Lucas is just BEGGING us to go and support these guys.

Captain Harlock

Okay I'd like to add my two cents if I may....

For me alot of the changes are silly. Adding Hayden Christiansen at the end of ROTJ, Han shooting first.....I mean come on now. Give people a little credit here. It's almost like George Lucas has tried to slip these under the door thinking nobody will notice them. If it was a background here, maybe a little nicer wipe or disolve then I wouldn't mind that much.

Bear with me for a second but let me put this out there; What if somebody at United Artists said "We're going to go back and 'improve' all the old 007 films. We're going to insert new digital effects into all of them and super impose Pierce Brosnon into every movie all the way back to Dr. No so that younger audiences will appreciate it more". Sounds stupid but I kind of feel that it's the same sort of thing. For me the appeal of the Bond films is that there are these little nuiances like different actors playing Felix Lieter, different actors playing James Bond, and different things you notice that become a part of film lore if you will. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who say "George Lucas raped my childhood!". But part of the fun in the Star Wars series is now lost. You really don't look at the films the same way.

Okay I've said my piece. Thank you for your time.

sracer

The answer is: No. Those who claim, "no big deal" do so under the premise that it is Lucas' films and he can do whatever he pleases with them. So, if they really mean what they say, then they should maintain that position even if Lucas were to digitally superimpose actors from the prequel trilogy into the OT.

Star Wars "fans" are not fans in the traditional sense where "fan" was short for "fanatic"...as in fanatical about the minutia... every frame, every scene, every prop is lovingly remembered. Actually, that holds true for most things, not just Star Wars.

I think it goes to society as a whole... where absolutes are shunned, and relativism is the word of the day. (edited to expand) The "absolute" of Star Wars is as Star Wars was back in 1978 is something that isn't very popular.... but the "relative" Star Wars of... whatever Lucas believes it is at that time is what it is, is popular.

Terrell

First of all, you don't know what he's doing because absolutely nothing has been officially confirmed at all.

As for replacing actors, replacing the monkey-eyed old woman in ESB with Ian McDiarmid is a great change. Anyone that says otherwise is just a whiner that will complain about any change. Ian McDiarmid is the Emperor. The monkey-eyed old woman in ESB looks and sounds nothing like the Emperor that's in all the other films. End of story.

As for replacing Shaw with Hayden at the end of ROTJ, I don't like the change. It creates more problems than it solves. But, I won't believe it until I see it on the DVDs or it comes from Lucasfilm. We've never been given any legitimate sources to confirm it's legit. Just some picture from AICN, whic has about as much credibility as Supershadow.

Please show me where that is confirmed? That is nothing more than a rumor passed along at TF.N that has no basis in fact.

It's one of the four changes I don't like. It didn't need to be change. But how long are you and other going to harp on this issue. It's done. Hopefully he'll either restore it or at least make it look a whole lot better. As for changing Han's character, slight at best. Han is still the same selfish, gun toting, renegade he has always been in ANH.

As Mike said, it's not in the original script because the prequels weren't even made yet. Now that the prequels are part of the saga, it should be in there. And what's so wrong with the change? Once you've added a different celebration scene, what's one more 5 second shot of Naboo celebrating going to hurt? But I'll ask you again, where is the official confirmation that this is being added? I've heard nothing official. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Either way, this change is not a big deal.

Another dumb change that's worse than Greedo shooting first. But Luke does have his mouth open for what it's worth.

I don't know, Vader buttf***ing Chewbacca?

Quite frankly, that's going way overboard. These films won't be much different from the SEs. They'll just be better looking. 95% of the changes are just FX cleanups and touchups. 98% of the original films are still present in the SEs, because he didn't edit out parts of the originals. He just added to it. But the SEs still have the same tone and character. They still look, feel, and sound like Star Wars.

You should wait to see what the changes are before proclaiming them ruined.



You obviously are upset about this. If you truly feel that strongly about it, why buy the DVDs and support what you don't agree.

Folks, this is about the thousandth time we've gone in circles with this argument.

Terrell

No, TF.N reports that there's a rumor that Boba Fett's voice may be changed. There are a whole lot of rumors getting passed around. Some people will instantly believe everything they read.

aam1

Have you not seen the picture of Jar Jar sitting next to Han Solo in the Cantina, just before Greedo shoots?

Snowmaker

That'd be great if, after he shot Greedo, he turned and shot Jar Jar.

Qui Gon Jim

When will you people get it through your thick heads?? MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT NOTICE. "WE" are not most people.

I am sure, in time that all versions of these films will be available. Just enjoy what is being released, or find a LD or "equivalent" and quit bitching and clogging legitimate discussions with SW threadcrapping. Jesus!

kcbrett5

This entire thread is silly. The original post was about a scene that he thought was changed and everyone else agrees was not changed.

The rest of the thread is people making ridiculous suggestions and other people getting outraged by them.

Busta Rhymes as chewbacca and Emmanuel Lewis as yoda.

But while we are on the subject, Eminem would make a great Luke Skywalker. I'd buy 3 copies each if they make that change. And replace those silly Jabba's palace muppet singers with rappers. Then ROTJ wouldn't suck so much.