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How can people sell bootlegs of films at the flea market?

How can people sell bootlegs of films at the flea market?

 
Old 07-14-03, 02:08 PM
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Given the prevelance of these on Ebay, with no shutting down of auctions (it's not like Ebay is hidden, and it's not as if shutting down every Star Wars auction, given that it doesn't legitimately exist on DVD anywhere in the world, would be hard), it really doesn't surprise me that they sell them at flea markets.

I'm sure the local police don't really want to use limited resources for constant supervision of illegal DVD-selling.
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Old 07-14-03, 03:01 PM
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How many hours will some ebay worker have to be working at to shut down the hundreds and hundreds of auctions that go by every day? this is the same reason why the flea market venders get off easy.. it's a niddle in a hay stack
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Old 07-14-03, 03:11 PM
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There are people who will do anything to make money, even stealing from others.
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Old 07-14-03, 03:12 PM
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What's a niddle....? Is like a nuddle?? J/k

You are right though. The people of the MPAA have bigger fish to fry. Plus, as others have said "Who would buy Two Towers for $20 when you can get the legit copy(when it is released) for much less and also get extras."

I do love the flea markets though....as well as pawn shops(although they seem to be getting greasier by the day). They are a great resource for finding OOP, rare, or even blind buys. Like Sleepaway Camp. I knew this movie had a 'cult' type following and thought...what the heck....it's only $7..if I don't like it I can ebay it or trade it.

"I remember getting the double disk "Die Hard" from him"

Wow...that too is a great price. I also snagged a sealed copy of Close Encounters - 2 disk for $9.
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Old 07-14-03, 03:46 PM
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Is it really considered a bootleg if the movie has no plans to be on DVD? I own a Song of the South DVD but I don't consider it a bootleg because it will never be on DVD, however, if I bought a DVD of Terminator 3 then that would be a bootleg. Is there a difference?
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Old 07-14-03, 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by C_Fletch


Wow...that too is a great price. I also snagged a sealed copy of Close Encounters - 2 disk for $9.
You got yours for a $1 less then I did. :-) I got that one from him as well. All this flea market talk makes me want to go there this Friday.
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Old 07-14-03, 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by lesterlong
Is it really considered a bootleg if the movie has no plans to be on DVD? I own a Song of the South DVD but I don't consider it a bootleg because it will never be on DVD, however, if I bought a DVD of Terminator 3 then that would be a bootleg. Is there a difference?
It's a bootleg either way. A bootleg is material that is either material that is unavailable or will eventually be available. It doesn't matter if there is no scheduled release date. Song of the South will probably be released someday, under heavy editing of course.
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Old 07-14-03, 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Jackskeleton
How many hours will some ebay worker have to be working at to shut down the hundreds and hundreds of auctions that go by every day? this is the same reason why the flea market venders get off easy.. it's a niddle in a hay stack
I guarantee that I could find I thousand bootleg items within an hour on ebay. You hear that Ebay, hire me. What is messed up about ebay is that they will advertise bootlegs on their site.
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Old 07-14-03, 05:15 PM
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There is this small area up the road from where I live known as Knobtown, and on the street corners there, you can often find vendors selling bootleg material out of the back of a truck on most any summer day. A few years ago, I was riding with a friend of mine thru the area, and I normally just pass these guys right by, but he thought he'd stop and check out some furniture vendor. He was selling Thomasville furniture for hundreds of dollars under what you would pay for the stuff at a Thomasville store. Curious about it, he contacted the store manager for the Tomasville store in our area, and they came out and investigated the vendor to discover he was selling imitation Thomasville furniture. Police came and did whatever they had to do, and a few days later he was set back up on the same corner, selling the same imitation furniture.

The war against bootlegs is like the war agaisnt terrorism: you might as well wage a war against jealousy. And while I don't buy bootlegs of movies that will soon come out on DVD in better versions, I do not mind the bootlegger if they can provide me with the occasional rare gem I am looking for. For example, I got a DVD of Captain Nice episodes from a seller at a comic book convention, and most rencently, I found a 5 DVD set of Misfits of Science for a relatively decent price, so once in a while, I find something they are offering that fits a need I have that is not being met by other avenues.

And I know it's not legal, the seller knows it's not legal, the copyright holders of Misfits of Science know it's not legal, your Aunt Sally knows it's not legal, but in the greater scheme of things, who cares? Obviously not me, since I bought it. Obviously not the seller since he sold it. Obviously not the copyright holders of Misfits of Science since they allow that show to be sold on line and at conventions. It's like the Star Wars bootleg movies. Once, Lucasfilm had Ebay shutting down the auctions, but once they announced the originals would never be released on DVD with the original theatrical cut, Lucasfilm stopped shutting them down. Star Wars bootlegs didn't suddenly stop being illegal, but I feel Lucasfilm realized that to spend money on lawyers to shut down all these auctions was pointless since the movies were never going to be released anyway, and perhaps they would lose more money on the lawyer fees than on the bootlegs. And I also think Lucas knows people will buy the Original Trilogy on DVD, changes and all, and he really won't be out any money, and he knows he could be making money off the Original Trilogy but has opted to let the bootleggers get rich.

Now Disney, on the other hand, seems to be more militant when it comes to those Ebay auctions.
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Old 07-14-03, 05:27 PM
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I rem a few years ago seeing a tv show about trade mark enforcement and so on... this focused more on clothing brands but anyways, main thing was that they had like less then 30 enforcement officers for the whole state..

Plus as far as DVD bootlegs I would bet that many who buy have no idea.. I mean we all hear people walk into video rental stores and ask "Is [some film that JUST came out] in yet?". That used to drive my friend who worked at one just nuts..

Still, I know my mother would have no idea that LOR:Two Towers is not out on DVD yet legally, nor would she know how the cover should look and so on. If she bought something that was a good DVD copy she might never know same might be true for many who shop the flea markets. So not many will complain...

Thing that sort of floors me is the used DVD store near me always has tons and I mean TONS of used box sets, all nice and new. Yeah right, 12 people all bought NYPD blue box sets and "sold" with in a week of it hitting the market.. Please, those are all stolen.. Then of course they compound that theft by charging rip off near new prices for them too..
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Old 07-14-03, 09:18 PM
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I frequent Rice's Flea Market in PA, and they always have bootlegs there. DVD's aren't as big, but if you ask for them, they have them. The big draw at that particular Flea Market is bootleg CD's, which most of the times are around $2 each, give or take. I have seen the Flea Market shut them down, but it happens very rarely.
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Old 07-15-03, 02:47 AM
  #37  
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This is interesting that I just found...

SHANGHAI (AFP) - Three major US film studios have filed suit against three Chinese companies alleging copyright violations through the sale of pirated video discs.


In the first action of its kind in Shanghai, Fox Entertainment's Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp, Walt Disney Co and French-owned Vivendi Universal's Universal Studios are seeking a public apology, compensation and a halt to the alleged violations, the Shanghai Daily reported.


The case was heard last week by Shanghai No.2 Intermediate People's Court, the report said.


Yang Jun, a lawyer representing all three companies, told the newspaper that the plaintiffs had sent staff to the outlets of the three defendants and bought pirated VCDs and DVDs.


"With China's entry to the World Trade Organization, the protection of intellectual property rights must be enhanced," Yang was quoted as saying.


"If piracy is not properly combated, it could hamper the further introduction of good films from abroad and influence the development of the market."


Fox is suing Shanghai Hezhong Enterprise Development Co for allegedly selling pirated copies of the fourth series of the television series "X Files" and is seeking 220,000 yuan (26,800 dollars) in compensation.


The company is also suing Shanghai Yatu Film Culture for allegedly selling pirated copies of the same title and of "Speed 2", demanding 415,000 yuan (50,600 dollars) in compensation, the report said.


Shanghai Husheng Audio-Visual Co is also in its sights for allegedly selling fake copies of the fourth series of "X-Files", and the films "Courage Under Fire" and "Moulin Rouge". Fox wants 615,000 yuan (75,000 dollars) compensation.


Disney filed its suit against Yatu over alleged pirated copies of "A Bug's Life" and "Dinosaur" and is demanding similar compensation.


Meanwhile, Universal has sued Husheng for allegedly selling pirated copies of "The Lost World: Jurassic Park" and "Jurassic Park III". It has also sued Hezhong over "The Bone Collector" and "Jurassic Park III".


Chinese law currently allows foreign film companies to seek a maximum 500,000 yuan (61,000 dollars) in compensation for each title if they are unable to provide exact details on losses or the counterfeiters' profit.


The newspaper cited court officials as saying that both plaintiffs and defendants have agreed to mediation, although there has been no discussion of money.
...I thought this might have something to do with this discussion.
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Old 07-15-03, 03:42 AM
  #38  
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yup, it sure does.. this, by all chance is where the flea market copies are coming from.
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Old 07-15-03, 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by Jackskeleton
Flea markets are the sort of thing that cops overlook or let go because it is to much paper work for to little of a crime. Not to mention it's really something along the lines of the copyright holder having to get involved in order for the authorities to get really involved.
It's the latter not the former. Bootlegging is a Federal crime, not a local one. And, unlike most other Federal crimes, it requires there to be a complainant. No complaint, no crime. Local cops are not going to be involved in a bootleg bust unless they are working with a Federal law enforcement agency that is actually running the bust, or they have been asked by a Federal law enforcement agency to act as their proxy. In other words, it's a non-issue for local, county or state cops who are charged with upholding the laws of their state and municipality only.

I don't know why the idea that cops avoid anything that is going to cause paperwork is so popular, probably because of TV? I work in law enforcement, and while there definitely are lazy cops who might dodge something because of a report, (just like in any occupation you have lazy workers) they are in the low minority. Most cops I know don't let the paperwork phase them and will gladly do monsterous amounts if they can get credit for an unusual or very large bust (which something like shutting down a group of bootleggers would be.) Enormous amounts of paperwork means getting overtime pay while sitting at a PC drinking coffee and talking to your friends/coworkers. In other words, it's cake. Not to mention that pretty much everything except vaccuuming your car and going to code requires a report, it's something that you are going to have to do one way or the other.

Also, a large number of easy busts like bootleg tables at the flea market would be is the kind of thing that eventually leads patrolmen to becoming Sgt's, Sgt's to Lt's, etc. there would be cops all over it if it was actually enforcable at a local level. Making busts are like getting sales, new accts, etc.. would be at a 'regular' job. There's always someone who would do it to get ahead.

At the Federal level, sellers are generally left alone because they are a waste of time. This isn't always the case, there are always high profile news stories like the one a few years ago where they swept up and burned all the Louis Vatton and Gucci bootlegs, and the one a few years before that where they did the same with Simpson's merchandise. I think there was even one from a couple of years ago where China town DVD stores were raided for a certain few titles being sold. But these are the exceptions, and wouldn't have happened unless a Federal judge ordered it as part of the penalty in the case the license holder had brought to court. Generally the FBI and US Marshalls that get involved in bootleg cases will target the manufacturer if it's in the US, and barring that then the US distributor/importer. It's easier and makes more sense to shut down the supply than the cottage industry. The market (sellers) only gets hit if they can't touch the supply line.

Last edited by renaldow; 07-15-03 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 07-15-03, 08:47 AM
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This reminds of a funny thing I saw at a flea market a few weeks ago. I saw this sign at this booth that said "Current DVDs!" so I decide to go over and check it out. As soon as I get within 5 feet of it, I can already tell they're all bootlegs. $15 a piece or 2 for $20, the sign said. But that's not the funny part, the funny part is that they were all movies like "The Matrix", "Ali", "The Mummy Returns", and "Pearl Harbor", the only movie that had that wasn't already out on legit DVD in the US was "Bend It Like Beckham". Haha, what a bunch of losers. I feel sorry for anyone who actually buys that crap. Who would pay $15 for a bootleg when you can already get a legit copy for $15 or less?

The day wasn't a total bust though, as I picked up Star Trek TNG Seasons 1 & 2 for $25 a piece. SCORE!
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Old 07-15-03, 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by renaldow
It's the latter not the former. Bootlegging is a Federal crime, not a local one. And, unlike most other Federal crimes, it requires there to be a complainant. No complaint, no crime. Local cops are not going to be involved in a bootleg bust unless they are working with a Federal law enforcement agency that is actually running the bust, or they have been asked by a Federal law enforcement agency to act as their proxy. In other words, it's a non-issue for local, county or state cops who are charged with upholding the laws of their state and municipality only.

I don't know why the idea that cops avoid anything that is going to cause paperwork is so popular, probably because of TV? I work in law enforcement, and while there definitely are lazy cops who might dodge something because of a report, (just like in any occupation you have lazy workers) they are in the low minority. Most cops I know don't let the paperwork phase them and will gladly do monsterous amounts if they can get credit for an unusual or very large bust (which something like shutting down a group of bootleggers would be.) Enormous amounts of paperwork means getting overtime pay while sitting at a PC drinking coffee and talking to your friends/coworkers. In other words, it's cake. Not to mention that pretty much everything except vaccuuming your car and going to code requires a report, it's something that you are going to have to do one way or the other.

Also, a large number of easy busts like bootleg tables at the flea market would be is the kind of thing that eventually leads patrolmen to becoming Sgt's, Sgt's to Lt's, etc. there would be cops all over it if it was actually enforcable at a local level. Making busts are like getting sales, new accts, etc.. would be at a 'regular' job. There's always someone who would do it to get ahead.

At the Federal level, sellers are generally left alone because they are a waste of time. This isn't always the case, there are always high profile news stories like the one a few years ago where they swept up and burned all the Louis Vatton and Gucci bootlegs, and the one a few years before that where they did the same with Simpson's merchandise. I think there was even one from a couple of years ago where China town DVD stores were raided for a certain few titles being sold. But these are the exceptions, and wouldn't have happened unless a Federal judge ordered it as part of the penalty in the case the license holder had brought to court. Generally the FBI and US Marshalls that get involved in bootleg cases will target the manufacturer if it's in the US, and barring that then the US distributor/importer. It's easier and makes more sense to shut down the supply than the cottage industry. The market (sellers) only gets hit if they can't touch the supply line.
renaldow,
Thanks for the great post. This really answers a lot of questions I personally had on who does what when dealing with bootleggers.
I have a question if you don't mind. What can one do if we see this type of thing going on locally? From your post, it seems like going to the local authorities would not be the proper route to go. Should one call the local FBI offices? Curious. Thanks
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Old 07-15-03, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
Bootlegging is a Federal crime, not a local one. And, unlike most other Federal crimes, it requires there to be a complainant. No complaint, no crime.
Yup, that's the problem. I used to alert Ebay about bootleg auctions all the time. The boots on Ebay make honest sellers look bad and destroy buyer's trust in the Ebay process, so I wanted to get as many of these auctions closed as possible. At first I was successful, but soon starting getting emails from Ebay saying they couldn't end the auction without a complaint from the original copyright holder. I finally gave up and stopped buying and selling on Ebay altogether.
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Old 07-15-03, 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by NoirTech
What can one do if we see this type of thing going on locally? From your post, it seems like going to the local authorities would not be the proper route to go. Should one call the local FBI offices? Curious. Thanks
Calling the FBI won't do anything either unless you are the license holder, which I'm assuming you're not. This is from the MPAA website:

The MPAA maintains a toll-free anti-piracy Hotline number (1-800-NO-COPYS) in the U.S. for retailers and consumers to call if they suspect piracy. In addition, complaints can be directed to the MPAA email hotline at [email protected].


That should be good for anything, Ebay, fleamarkets, etc.
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Old 07-15-03, 02:38 PM
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Guess I was wrong about who was in charge for making the bust, Hope my other info was helpful in some way.
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Old 07-15-03, 09:20 PM
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i bought a boot DVD of AotC once .. just to see what the quality is like .. I did not expect much .. but it was even worse than VHS .. all I can say is STAY AWAY .. it does not take that loong till a movie comes out on DVD these days ...

living here in Fiji, where the video store main fare is boots ... i made them play a disk before I rent it ... since then they do not like me anymore ... "oh you expats complain too much about the quality" ... SIGH .

takes amazon to deliver something here TWO MONTHS !!!

P.s. i once got a boot VHS of Starship troopers, which I hold dear, as it has scenes that are not even on the deleted section of the DVD and show Carmen as being a total bitch ...
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Old 07-15-03, 09:43 PM
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All I can say is... the people who are bootlegging are very foolish. They will be caught eventually, all of them. The reason nothing is being done about them at this point is the police are cracking down more on other forms of piracy, like mp3's with music or illegal software cracks. I guess movies aren't on their top priority list right now. Movies that are bootlegged aren't usually that great of quality anyways. Almost makes the DVD well worth it.

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Old 07-15-03, 09:44 PM
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Oh by the way, didn't you hear about the guy who bootlegged Hulk recently? He got sent away to jail for a painfully long time =(

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Old 07-15-03, 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by lesterlong
Is it really considered a bootleg if the movie has no plans to be on DVD? I own a Song of the South DVD but I don't consider it a bootleg because it will never be on DVD, however, if I bought a DVD of Terminator 3 then that would be a bootleg. Is there a difference?
I think the definition of bootleg means anything that was printed or distributed without the original creators' consent. So yea, that would be illegal too.
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Old 07-16-03, 01:58 AM
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One other factor on these "dvd's", most are such terrible quality, usually done with Digital Cams, colors are washed out, or they use the screener videotapes, and make "dvd's" from them.

Now, if the quality was exactly like the store bought ones, I would think more action would be taken, most times, these people lose all their customers with horrible product.
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Old 07-16-03, 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by mookiemeister
There are people who will do anything to make money, even stealing from others.
Yes.

Like price-fixing in the Record Industry?

Like (until recently) forcing artists into long contracts?

As far as bootlegging DVDs go - it seems a little like Prohibition to me. People don't care much for the current laws so it seems copyright laws are doomed to fail much as prohibiting booze was bound to fail.
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