Widescreen TV owners, how do you watch normal TV?

Jericho · 10-30-01, 03:05 AM

Topic basically says it all, how do you watch 4:3 show or for that matter 4:3 movies. I'm a fairlly new widescreen TV owner, basically been using the full option which just stretches the picture out evenly. Have 3 other options with varying zooms and stretching, and of course the 4:3 with bars.

I haven't watched any movies in 4:3 yet, so I'm wondering what others think work best for them.

cubanx · 10-30-01, 03:27 AM

If it's a Toshiba most people use Theatre Wide 2 stretch. I'm getting a smaller 4:3 HDTV myself as I can't get used to the gray bars on my Toshiba 65H80.

I'll reserve the big boy for just movies

an68 · 10-30-01, 06:40 AM

I use theaterwide 1 (keeps the center pretty much as 4:3 and slightly stretches the edges). After a few days you get used to it and I think it looks great.

Janitor · 10-30-01, 07:29 AM

If it's just broadcast, I normally use a different TV. Some 4:3 DVDs (like the Python disks) I watch in "stretch" mode of the set (where it does most the stretching at the edges).

For 4:3 movies that shouldn't be messed with (like Casablanca), I just watch in "narrow" mode preserving the OAR, and living with the gray bars. BTW - I had no problem getting used to the gray bars.

Guess it depends on the specific source material.

El Pollo · 10-30-01, 09:06 AM

Yeah, Theater Wide 1 on Toshibas is probably the mode to go with since it's a smooth stretch that leaves the center of the picture undistorted. TW2 is a zoom into the picture, so the top and bottom will be cut off.

Xytraguptorh · 10-30-01, 09:39 AM

Like most Toshiba owners, I use Theaterwide 1 for normal TV. For 4:3 DVDs, my DVD player (JVC progressive scan) generates black bars on the sides of the image...so I just leave the TV in FULL. SO much better than tolerating the gray bars.

Anyway, for 4:3 TV, I think most people get used to the stretch mode. I can't even tell that it's distorted at all, unless I'm really looking for it. Also, you don't have to worry about the gray bars causing uneven wear on the CRTs.

Jericho · 10-30-01, 11:02 AM

Thanks for the replies. I also have a Toshiba so I get the grey bars. Will give Theaterwide 1 a try for regular TV. still unsure of the grey bars in the 4:3 movies, but I guess its something you just get used to.

At least theaterwide 2 comes in handy for those non-anamorphic discs

cdstewart2 · 10-30-01, 12:21 PM

I, too have a Toshiba. I just got it a few weeks ago. I use the following (pretty much the consensus here):

Broadcast 4:3 (Buffy) = TheaterWide 1
Non-Anamorphic Movies & Broadcast Widescreen (Angel) = TheaterWide 2
Anamorphic Movies = Full
4:3 Movies (Night of the Living Dead) = Narrow Mode with Grey bars.

I will see the grey bars ONLY until my order of Duvetyne fabric (16 oz. blacker than black commando cloth) comes in. I'll be making 2 sets of Mattes out of foamcore covered with Duvetyne: 1 set for Narrow mode to hide the grey side bars, and 1 for source material that generates top/bottom black bars (i.e., 2.35:1 movies).

I'm getting my set ISF calibrated within the next couple weeks. I can't wait.

Janitor · 10-30-01, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xytraguptorh
Like most Toshiba owners, I use Theaterwide 1 for normal TV. For 4:3 DVDs, my DVD player (JVC progressive scan) generates black bars on the sides of the image...so I just leave the TV in FULL. SO much better than tolerating the gray bars.

Anyway, for 4:3 TV, I think most people get used to the stretch mode. I can't even tell that it's distorted at all, unless I'm really looking for it. Also, you don't have to worry about the gray bars causing uneven wear on the CRTs.

Actually, while it's very cool that the JVC does output scaling, the black bars will wear your CRT(s) faster than the gray. Well - technically, the bars themselves don't wear out the CRT(s) - It's the difference between areas that cause the uneven wear (burn in). I only use the JVCs scaling for non anamorphic (widescreen) films.

And the stretch mode on the Toshhiba may work pretty well, but it's almost worthless on a Mits. Maybe not worthless, but the only thing I have to do to notice the distortion, is look at the screen.

briank · 10-30-01, 02:50 PM

I have a Toshiba widescreen:

TW1: For broadcast tv.
TW2: non-anomorphic dvd
Full: anamorphic dvd and HDTV

Movie_Man · 10-30-01, 04:08 PM

Mitsubishi owner

Standard: Anamorphic DVDs, Digital OTA
Stretched: 4:3 material - stretched at the edges, center is unchanged
Expand - letterboxed TV or non-anamorphic DVDs

JsphOfArimethia · 10-30-01, 08:44 PM

So when talking about burn in, about how many years will it take to become a real problem?

I've been watching widescreen movies for years and years on a standard 4:3 tv, black bars and all. I've never, in my life, seen a tv with a burned in image. I've seen power transistors bust out, I've seen color transformers bust out, I've seen a lot of things happen to tvs. Been watching television since I was three. I've never seen a burn in.

So how many years? Before the gray bars, or the black bars, or the station logos, become a problem?

cubanx · 10-30-01, 09:23 PM

Well before I become " Aware" of burn-in I got a Station logo burn on my old Toshiba 43H95 in about 1 year becuase I left the set in torch mode from the factory. Live and learn.

Janitor · 10-30-01, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JsphOfArimethia
*snip*

So how many years? Before the gray bars, or the black bars, or the station logos, become a problem?

While any CRT could get unevenly worn, the RPTVs have a much higher wear rate on their multiple CRTs. Much. In hometheaterspot, some people have reported burning in of logos after only weeks after leaving the contrast at 100% (default setting).

When I bought my Mits, the one on display had the store logo from their demo signal burned into it. I don't know how long it was up there playing, but this is a current model (55809) set and I don't think its been out all that long.

Geofferson · 10-30-01, 10:51 PM

I have a Mitsubishi and view it in Stretch mode. Equivilant to TW1 for Toshiba's I presume.

JsphOfArimethia · 10-31-01, 01:48 AM

First off, cubanx, Janitor, thanks.

Second, this may sound naive, but, why don't those who make televisions take steps to prevent this from happening? I mean it seems like it would be pretty simple to take care of, seeing as how most common computer monitors are capable of just this. Am I completely off on that?

Janitor · 10-31-01, 08:05 AM

I'm not exactly sure what else the mfgrs could do, other than work hard on alternate technologies (like DLP). I believe one of the reasons that RPTVs tend to burn the way they do, is becauset the CRTs are driven so hard to use them as projection elements.

They (the mfgrs) have made a few attempts to slow the tendancy to burn in an RPTV display. The gray bars on many sets rather than black as an attempt smooth the average brightness edge to edge on the screen. Mitsubishi actually takes the 4:3 "window" (in narrow mode) and very slowly moves it back and forth to keep from getting those nice crisp edges at the sides of that "window".

Last I checked, a computer moniter can burn in just the same way as a direct view TV can. As an experiment - come up with a display that has a bright white dot in the middle of a black screen. Turn the wick up all the way on contrast, turn off your screen saver, and defeat the "greenscreen" powersaver stuff - then go on a nice, long vacation. Better yet - borrow a monitor to try this.

Part of the burn in problem is that (as it's been pointed out before) it's really not something burning into the phospher of the CRT. It's simply uneven wear of the CRTs. All CRTs wear out. Since it's a function of them wearing out, the issue is a cumulative one, and a matter of time. They don't have to wear unevenly - like all the guys running in "stretch" mode will help prevent that from happening at the edges - but they will wear.

Some external sources, like the JVC DVD player(s?) will run a screen saver if you leave it stopped but on for too long (10-15 minutes?). Also, if you leave them paused for a few minutes (2-3?) they'll start slowly dimming the display. This is far more like the way computer monitors are made "safe". The box you've hooked up to them (the computer) trys to protect them.

Boy - that post sure rambled.

Xytraguptorh · 10-31-01, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Janitor

Actually, while it's very cool that the JVC does output scaling, the black bars will wear your CRT(s) faster than the gray. Well - technically, the bars themselves don't wear out the CRT(s) - It's the difference between areas that cause the uneven wear (burn in). I only use the JVCs scaling for non anamorphic (widescreen) films.

And the stretch mode on the Toshhiba may work pretty well, but it's almost worthless on a Mits. Maybe not worthless, but the only thing I have to do to notice the distortion, is look at the screen.

The thing is, if you're like most DVD viewers, the number of 2.35:1 DVDs VASTLY outnumbers the number of 4:3 DVDs in your collection. Therefore, I actually think there's more of a risk of uneven wear when watching 2.35:1 movies...but I still refuse to distort the picture to fill my screen. I watch enough regular TV to compensate for it, I think. If a large percentage of my viewing was 4:3, then I'd definitely use the gray bars in NORMAL mode, but since it's relatively rare, I don't worry about it.

Is there really any reason to suspect that black bars when watching 4:3 material are any more damaging than black bars in 2.35:1 material? Anyway, I think most of set our contrast low enough that as long as we vary our viewing material, that it won't result in uneven CRT wear.

Janitor · 10-31-01, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xytraguptorh

The thing is, if you're like most DVD viewers, the number of 2.35:1 DVDs VASTLY outnumbers the number of 4:3 DVDs in your collection. Therefore, I actually think there's more of a risk of uneven wear when watching 2.35:1 movies...but I still refuse to distort the picture to fill my screen. I watch enough regular TV to compensate for it, I think. If a large percentage of my viewing was 4:3, then I'd definitely use the gray bars in NORMAL mode, but since it's relatively rare, I don't worry about it.

Is there really any reason to suspect that black bars when watching 4:3 material are any more damaging than black bars in 2.35:1 material? Anyway, I think most of set our contrast low enough that as long as we vary our viewing material, that it won't result in uneven CRT wear.

Actually, I don't know about most DVD watchers, but yes - I do own more 2.35:1. But not as much more as you'd think. Out of roughly 270 titles in my meager library, 30-40 of them are 4:3 material. (Python, etc). Given tha't I don't see a problem watching with the gray bars, I leave them alone for this material.

Also - keep in mind that while I (and maybe you) don't really watch any broadcast 4:3 on these TVs, some people do.

And no - the horizontal black bars on a 2.35:1 display are no less damaging than the vertical ones on a 4:3 display. But I still rely on the gray bars to stem the tide. If nothing else - CRT wear is cumulative over time.

Fer instance - if you watch (with the black bars) :

4:3 10% of the time
2.35:1 30% of the time
1.85:1 60% of the time

It means that 40% of the time you're lighting up the entire surface of your CRTs except for all four corners. Turning down white level on your set will certainly slow this down. Not the unevenness itself, but the wearing out of the CRTs in general.

And - it's only slowing it down.. Wear is inevatible. May not be noticable in the time you own the TV, but it's there none the less.

Xytraguptorh · 10-31-01, 06:27 PM

Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't really thought about the fact that the four corners of the screen would be getting used the least.

On your Mitsubish, when you view TV with the gray bars, can you tell that the picture has shifted somewhat from one side to the other? On my Toshiba, it appears to never move. I realize that you can't actually see it move while you're watching it, but I thought maybe a gradual difference could be noticed. I emailed Toshiba and they said the TV does indeed support something called "orbital movement", so I guess the image just moves a tiny bit. I would think it would actually be best to have the image gradually move all the way to the edge of one side of the screen and then to the other side to ensure even wear, but I guess none of them do that (that I know of).

JsphOfArimethia · 10-31-01, 07:12 PM

Thanks Janitor, and sorry Jericho if I've hijacked your thread too much. I have a few more things to say but I'll stop my curious george self from hijacking any further.

Janitor · 11-01-01, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xytraguptorh
Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't really thought about the fact that the four corners of the screen would be getting used the least.

On your Mitsubish, when you view TV with the gray bars, can you tell that the picture has shifted somewhat from one side to the other? On my Toshiba, it appears to never move. I realize that you can't actually see it move while you're watching it, but I thought maybe a gradual difference could be noticed. I emailed Toshiba and they said the TV does indeed support something called "orbital movement", so I guess the image just moves a tiny bit. I would think it would actually be best to have the image gradually move all the way to the edge of one side of the screen and then to the other side to ensure even wear, but I guess none of them do that (that I know of).

I never notice the movement, but there's no doubt that it has moved. I can't tell for sure how much the image has shifted, but it's very obvious that it's actually moved a few inches one way or the other.

Janitor · 11-01-01, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JsphOfArimethia
Thanks Janitor, and sorry Jericho if I've hijacked your thread too much. I have a few more things to say but I'll stop my curious george self from hijacking any further.

Thanks for providing (my) answers, or thanks for helping in the hijacking of the thread???

PS - UR welcome.

Hokie99 · 11-22-01, 10:10 PM

I have had my Toshiba TW40X81 for almost 2 years now and I have just started to notice a small line (burn-in) from the gray bars on both sides from watching tv in 4:3.

I have since changed to watching normal television in TW2 since I noticed but does anyone know what I can do to fix this? Is this normal or do you think it might be covered under warranty?

Any suggestions?

cubanx · 11-23-01, 04:13 AM

Burn in is not covered by warranty as its considered "user abuse" and not a design flaw even though the new 2002 Toshiba's include orbital movement in 4:3 mode. Really nothing you can do except wait for the screen to burn more evenly now that you use TW modes.

What has your contrast been set to?

10-30-01, 03:05 AM	#1
Jericho DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Columbia, MD, USA Posts: 10,764	Widescreen TV owners, how do you watch normal TV? Topic basically says it all, how do you watch 4:3 show or for that matter 4:3 movies. I'm a fairlly new widescreen TV owner, basically been using the full option which just stretches the picture out evenly. Have 3 other options with varying zooms and stretching, and of course the 4:3 with bars. I haven't watched any movies in 4:3 yet, so I'm wondering what others think work best for them. __________________ I can't believe I ate the whole thing

10-30-01, 03:27 AM	#2
cubanx DVD Talk Special Edition Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 1,155	If it's a Toshiba most people use Theatre Wide 2 stretch. I'm getting a smaller 4:3 HDTV myself as I can't get used to the gray bars on my Toshiba 65H80. I'll reserve the big boy for just movies __________________ MY DVD COLLECTION: Worship my Anime DVD Collection

10-30-01, 07:29 AM	#4
Janitor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On an island somewhere Posts: 448	If it's just broadcast, I normally use a different TV. Some 4:3 DVDs (like the Python disks) I watch in "stretch" mode of the set (where it does most the stretching at the edges). For 4:3 movies that shouldn't be messed with (like Casablanca), I just watch in "narrow" mode preserving the OAR, and living with the gray bars. BTW - I had no problem getting used to the gray bars. Guess it depends on the specific source material. __________________ "We demand ridgedly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty"

10-30-01, 09:06 AM	#5
El Pollo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Posts: 633	Yeah, Theater Wide 1 on Toshibas is probably the mode to go with since it's a smooth stretch that leaves the center of the picture undistorted. TW2 is a zoom into the picture, so the top and bottom will be cut off. __________________ "Yoink!" "Who are you?!?" "I'm Andre Agassi." "The Wrestler?"

10-30-01, 11:02 AM	#7
Jericho DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Columbia, MD, USA Posts: 10,764	Thanks for the replies. I also have a Toshiba so I get the grey bars. Will give Theaterwide 1 a try for regular TV. still unsure of the grey bars in the 4:3 movies, but I guess its something you just get used to. At least theaterwide 2 comes in handy for those non-anamorphic discs __________________ I can't believe I ate the whole thing

10-30-01, 06:40 AM	#3
an68 Cool New Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 28	I use theaterwide 1 (keeps the center pretty much as 4:3 and slightly stretches the edges). After a few days you get used to it and I think it looks great.

10-30-01, 09:39 AM	#6
Xytraguptorh DVD Talk Special Edition Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 1,137	Like most Toshiba owners, I use Theaterwide 1 for normal TV. For 4:3 DVDs, my DVD player (JVC progressive scan) generates black bars on the sides of the image...so I just leave the TV in FULL. SO much better than tolerating the gray bars. Anyway, for 4:3 TV, I think most people get used to the stretch mode. I can't even tell that it's distorted at all, unless I'm really looking for it. Also, you don't have to worry about the gray bars causing uneven wear on the CRTs.

10-30-01, 12:21 PM	#8
cdstewart2 Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Just next to the Gulf of Mexico Posts: 189	I, too have a Toshiba. I just got it a few weeks ago. I use the following (pretty much the consensus here): Broadcast 4:3 (Buffy) = TheaterWide 1 Non-Anamorphic Movies & Broadcast Widescreen (Angel) = TheaterWide 2 Anamorphic Movies = Full 4:3 Movies (Night of the Living Dead) = Narrow Mode with Grey bars. I will see the grey bars ONLY until my order of Duvetyne fabric (16 oz. blacker than black commando cloth) comes in. I'll be making 2 sets of Mattes out of foamcore covered with Duvetyne: 1 set for Narrow mode to hide the grey side bars, and 1 for source material that generates top/bottom black bars (i.e., 2.35:1 movies). I'm getting my set ISF calibrated within the next couple weeks. I can't wait. __________________ "Do or do not... there is no try"

10-30-01, 02:50 PM	#10
briank DVD Talk Ultimate Edition Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 4,094	I have a Toshiba widescreen: TW1: For broadcast tv. TW2: non-anomorphic dvd Full: anamorphic dvd and HDTV __________________ MY DVD TRACKER LIST

10-30-01, 04:08 PM	#11
Movie_Man DVD Talk Platinum Edition Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: 3rd Planet from the Sun Posts: 3,701	Mitsubishi owner Standard: Anamorphic DVDs, Digital OTA Stretched: 4:3 material - stretched at the edges, center is unchanged Expand - letterboxed TV or non-anamorphic DVDs

10-30-01, 08:44 PM	#12
JsphOfArimethia Senior Member Join Date: Jun 1999 Location: People's Republic of California Posts: 822	So when talking about burn in, about how many years will it take to become a real problem? I've been watching widescreen movies for years and years on a standard 4:3 tv, black bars and all. I've never, in my life, seen a tv with a burned in image. I've seen power transistors bust out, I've seen color transformers bust out, I've seen a lot of things happen to tvs. Been watching television since I was three. I've never seen a burn in. So how many years? Before the gray bars, or the black bars, or the station logos, become a problem? __________________ Listen, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government... You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just cause some watery tart threw a sword at you. My DVD's

10-30-01, 09:23 PM	#13
cubanx DVD Talk Special Edition Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 1,155	Well before I become " Aware" of burn-in I got a Station logo burn on my old Toshiba 43H95 in about 1 year becuase I left the set in torch mode from the factory. Live and learn. __________________ MY DVD COLLECTION: Worship my Anime DVD Collection

10-30-01, 10:51 PM	#15
Geofferson DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: TechNoir Posts: 32,245	I have a Mitsubishi and view it in Stretch mode. Equivilant to TW1 for Toshiba's I presume. __________________ “Are we having fun yet?" Henry Pollard, Party Down

10-31-01, 01:48 AM	#16
JsphOfArimethia Senior Member Join Date: Jun 1999 Location: People's Republic of California Posts: 822	First off, cubanx, Janitor, thanks. Second, this may sound naive, but, why don't those who make televisions take steps to prevent this from happening? I mean it seems like it would be pretty simple to take care of, seeing as how most common computer monitors are capable of just this. Am I completely off on that? __________________ Listen, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government... You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just cause some watery tart threw a sword at you. My DVD's

10-31-01, 08:05 AM	#17
Janitor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On an island somewhere Posts: 448	I'm not exactly sure what else the mfgrs could do, other than work hard on alternate technologies (like DLP). I believe one of the reasons that RPTVs tend to burn the way they do, is becauset the CRTs are driven so hard to use them as projection elements. They (the mfgrs) have made a few attempts to slow the tendancy to burn in an RPTV display. The gray bars on many sets rather than black as an attempt smooth the average brightness edge to edge on the screen. Mitsubishi actually takes the 4:3 "window" (in narrow mode) and very slowly moves it back and forth to keep from getting those nice crisp edges at the sides of that "window". Last I checked, a computer moniter can burn in just the same way as a direct view TV can. As an experiment - come up with a display that has a bright white dot in the middle of a black screen. Turn the wick up all the way on contrast, turn off your screen saver, and defeat the "greenscreen" powersaver stuff - then go on a nice, long vacation. Better yet - borrow a monitor to try this. Part of the burn in problem is that (as it's been pointed out before) it's really not something burning into the phospher of the CRT. It's simply uneven wear of the CRTs. All CRTs wear out. Since it's a function of them wearing out, the issue is a cumulative one, and a matter of time. They don't have to wear unevenly - like all the guys running in "stretch" mode will help prevent that from happening at the edges - but they will wear. Some external sources, like the JVC DVD player(s?) will run a screen saver if you leave it stopped but on for too long (10-15 minutes?). Also, if you leave them paused for a few minutes (2-3?) they'll start slowly dimming the display. This is far more like the way computer monitors are made "safe". The box you've hooked up to them (the computer) trys to protect them. Boy - that post sure rambled. __________________ "We demand ridgedly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty"

10-31-01, 06:27 PM	#20
Xytraguptorh DVD Talk Special Edition Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 1,137	Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't really thought about the fact that the four corners of the screen would be getting used the least. On your Mitsubish, when you view TV with the gray bars, can you tell that the picture has shifted somewhat from one side to the other? On my Toshiba, it appears to never move. I realize that you can't actually see it move while you're watching it, but I thought maybe a gradual difference could be noticed. I emailed Toshiba and they said the TV does indeed support something called "orbital movement", so I guess the image just moves a tiny bit. I would think it would actually be best to have the image gradually move all the way to the edge of one side of the screen and then to the other side to ensure even wear, but I guess none of them do that (that I know of).

10-31-01, 07:12 PM	#21
JsphOfArimethia Senior Member Join Date: Jun 1999 Location: People's Republic of California Posts: 822	Thanks Janitor, and sorry Jericho if I've hijacked your thread too much. I have a few more things to say but I'll stop my curious george self from hijacking any further. __________________ Listen, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government... You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just cause some watery tart threw a sword at you. My DVD's

11-22-01, 10:10 PM	#24
Hokie99 New Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Centreville, VA Posts: 13	I have had my Toshiba TW40X81 for almost 2 years now and I have just started to notice a small line (burn-in) from the gray bars on both sides from watching tv in 4:3. I have since changed to watching normal television in TW2 since I noticed but does anyone know what I can do to fix this? Is this normal or do you think it might be covered under warranty? Any suggestions?

11-23-01, 04:13 AM	#25
cubanx DVD Talk Special Edition Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 1,155	Burn in is not covered by warranty as its considered "user abuse" and not a design flaw even though the new 2002 Toshiba's include orbital movement in 4:3 mode. Really nothing you can do except wait for the screen to burn more evenly now that you use TW modes. What has your contrast been set to? __________________ MY DVD COLLECTION: Worship my Anime DVD Collection