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Old 09-08-17, 08:44 AM   #1
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Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

http://wegotthiscovered.com/comicboo...-heap-trouble/

While Marvel may certainly be dominating at the box office, it could be argued that things haven’t gone as well for them in recent years on the comic book side. To put it mildly, fans have become frustrated with the publisher’s decision to replace their favorite heroes with younger characters, the controversial move to make Captain America an agent of Hydra, and the massive dump that the House of Ideas has taken on its “first family,” the Fantastic Four.

According to a Marvel intern who’s now voiced his concerns and is operating under the name of “The Whisperer,” the situation is becoming pretty dire. Not surprisingly, there’s a push by Marvel big wigs to get back to meat and potatoes as it were, but they risk putting themselves on a slippery slope by casting aside diversity characters.

Editorial is miserable. Understaffed, under experienced and overworked. The direction at the top corporate level is a mess of politics and in-fighting. They all look the fool to Disney because of Feige’s split and the bad PR & constant gaming of their declining sales is wearing on them. Top brass want to make a hard left back to what worked with Steve, Thor, Tony, Banner and other recognizable faces. Editorial knows how bad it’s going to look to push all their diversity celebrations to the side. Reality is those books didn’t sell. A lot of it had to do with Marvel’s chincy practices finally reaching a breaking point with fans but the internal editorial spin is that comic shop fans aren’t ready to embrace change.

Something else that’s irked longtime True Believers has been the annual relaunches that have followed major crossover events, resulting in a myriad of #1s. Well, as The Whisperer adds, this has also caused a lot of internal friction, citing that the upcoming Marvel Legacy initiative is a “rush-job”:

Legacy is a rush-job. They can’t afford to take the classic characters off the table like that for so long but they also don’t want to piss off the new diverse audience they’ve been trying to court. They’re trying to have their cake and eat it too, and please all masters. It’s a scattershot way to buy time while they right the course on several books. It’s not going to be about “new number 1s” but milestone 500, 600, 800 issues. A lot of these big volume numbers are really stretching the definition but the constant relaunches have started to seriously damage the trade department’s ability to plan out long-term marketing.

While some may contest the validity of the above statements, it’s important as always to take it with a grain of salt. Still, this aligns with various other woes Marvel‘s experienced in recent years, so we can only hope they find a way to get their affairs in order before long.

Source: Bleeding Cool

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08...marvel-legacy/
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Old 09-08-17, 10:16 AM   #2
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

Marvel was at the top of the heap when the X-Men where their tent pole along with the Avengers, Spiderman and to a lesser extent the F4.

They destroyed the X-Men presumably because they don't own the movie rights, shit on F4 again because of the same, and made the Avengers just a group of heavy hitters. They've dug a hole and I don't think they can get out of it. I personally think Bendis is much to blame for the creative issues but that's just me.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:26 AM   #3
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

I can't leave out Bill Jemas and Quesada as participants in the decline of Marvel.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:36 AM   #4
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.
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Old 09-08-17, 11:03 AM   #5
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.
While this is true, I doubt they'd be in as much (supposed) turmoil if DC wasn't eating their lunch.

While it's easy to blame Bendis, I truly believe he helped right the ship a bit. We may all scoff at adding Spider-Man and Wolverine to the New Avengers way back when, but it worked. I mean think about Spider-Man Homecoming, without Bendis we never get the tie in. While I think his Guardians of the Galaxy was meandering and terrible, I didn't mind his XMen run, even with the seemingly pointless addition of the original five XMen.

As a big XMen fan, I feel like they made a huge mistake positioning the Inhumans to replace them, then setting up Cyclops as this horrible terrorist and then revealing he did... well, not much to earn that hate. That was a story culminating for like a year and it didn't pay off. However I will readily admit that it's not like the XMen we're doing gangbusters before that either.

The constant rebooting is a major problem, as well as the constant crossovers that make it difficult if not impossible to establish good, long uninterrupted runs of creative teams. But I'll also agree that the comic book buying audience doesn't really want change, and that's a problem.
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Old 09-08-17, 11:11 AM   #6
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.

These are the reasons for the decline in general of comic sales, not just the decline of Marvel titles. It sounds like D.C. was for a brief period of time eating Marvel's lunch, but lately I have not been reading anything to indicate that D.C. is greatly benefiting from Marvel's woes (D.C. fans have plenty of issues with their own team). It also sounds like there are now so many titles under the Image umbrella that even die hard anti Marvel (and to a lesser degree anti D.C.) Image customers money is being spread thin. Dark Horse is also not as hot as they were back in their heyday.

I remember the days when it felt like there was a clickbait Image Title XYZ has sold out and is already being allocated before it hits the shelves on bleeding cool every freaking day...much less of those headlines on Bleeding Cool lately.

I only pick up a small number of books and am this close to stopping at the end of this year...my halt in buying digital/TPBs over a year ago has led me to realize I just have no desire to put in the time to keep up with titles, whether they are from Marvel, Image, IDW, D.C., or whoever. I feel bad for comic stores, as they have to rely on Funko Pops, and other pop culture doodads now more than ever to offset the decline in comic sales and keep their doors open.

Comics really are hideously expensive, $4-5 for a book you can read in 5 minutes, while the opposite is also true, $4-5 for a comic that is overstuffed with words (comics should be more show than tell) and takes too long to read (who wants to spend 20-30 minutes reading one issue of a 6 issue arc). If a comic is too talky you might as well pick up an actual novel (fantasy, sci fi, drama, romance...pick your poison) for a few bucks more and not worry about being forced to pick up another novel to complete the story.
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Old 09-09-17, 08:08 AM   #7
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.
You can't blame shitty writing on the decline of physical media. I do agree with your other two points; the price of comics needs to come down a bit (I don't think they really have ads anymore except for the company's other products), and Marvel needs to scale back on the amount of titles.

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Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
The constant rebooting is a major problem, as well as the constant crossovers that make it difficult if not impossible to establish good, long uninterrupted runs of creative teams. But I'll also agree that the comic book buying audience doesn't really want change, and that's a problem.
Re-launching titles (I hate using the term "reboot;" I think it gets mis-used too often) every two years or so is annoying, but my biggest complaint is with the constant crossovers. You have to buy three or four different titles just to get the whole story. In some cases where the crossover even has a main book, the story isn't contained to that main book; it still spills over to two or three other books you have to pick up. For example, the recent Spiderman event "The Clone Conspiracy" had three books you had to read to get the story: Amazing Spiderman, The Clone Conspiracy main book, and Clone Conspiracy Omega #1. The main story wasn't even contained to one book or the other; it kept bouncing back-and-forth between Amazing Spiderman and Clone Conspiracy, so I couldn't read straight through Amazing Spiderman without also buying a second book. And Clone Conspiracy Omega seemed to do nothing more than wrap up the storyline, so why couldn't they put that content in Amazing Spiderman or make that book Clone Conspiracy issue six?

The re-launching makes no sense to me. At one point, someone from Marvel said they did it so new fans had a place to jump on, but I think they end up making stuff more confusing. Using the X-Men as an example, if I were a new fan with no real prior knowledge of the X-Men, looking at buying a couple of those books, I would be confused out of my mind at what I saw. Right now, there’s at least a half dozen X-Men books, all of which had been re-launched three or four times in the past five years, referencing stuff that happened years ago or in other books. On top of that, there are multiple iterations of the same character and one of those characters may be in two or three different books (new fan: so, there’s three Wolverines, but the Wolverine I kind of knew about is dead, but he's also here as an old man, but he’s from an alternate universe that was in a miniseries from 15 years ago and the current Wolverine, who is wearing the costume of the original Wolverine, who is dead but is also here as an old man, is a girl who is a clone of the original Wolverine?) They don’t really write their books to help new readers. The writers kind of write the stories like they expect the reader to have prior knowledge of what’s going on, but some of this is confusing to people who have been reading the books for years.

Regarding change, I don't think comic fans are opposed to the status quo changing. It's that the changes Marvel is implementing are kind of weird. Taking Iron Man as an example, who thought making the new Iron Man a 15-year old black girl was a good idea, especially when they kinda also made Doctor Doom Iron Man? Did that change cause 15-year old black girls to all of the sudden start buying Iron Man comics? Maybe some did, but I'm willing to bet it didn't help the numbers like Marvel wanted.
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Old 09-09-17, 09:54 PM   #8
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

No surprises here. Marvel hasn't come out with decent comics since the late 1980's.

Marvel in the 1990's was especially terrible. By that point, gone were what I considered interesting stories/characters. Instead they re-booted Uncanny X-men & Spider-man with #1 issues, and to add insult to injury - produced foil/variant/hologram covers so they could "trick" fans into buying numerous copies of the same issue.

Instead of giving fans good stories & exceptional artwork (which is what we saw a lot of in the '80's), Marvel's '90's output was cookie-cutter crap just designed to rip off fans - and they failed miserably. No wonder they had a lot of financial problems at this time. I also recall a relative trying to sell me Marvel stock back around the mid-'90's. What a fucking joke. As far as I'm concerned the paper that Marvel stock was printed on was only good for two things: toilet paper & lining kitty litter containers

They should just stick to their films/TV series & their reprints of older material (Collected Editions) and stop publishing the monthly, overpriced shit they're coming out with now.
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Old 09-09-17, 10:09 PM   #9
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

I'm sorry, since the 80s? You're going to totally ignore stuff like Morrison's New XMen, Whedon's Astonishing, Brubaker's Captain America, Bendis, Brubaker and Waid on Daredevil, cosmic marvel from Annihilation on, Hickman's Fantastic Four, Busiek's Avengers, and countless others?

Sounds like someone who left with the speculator boom/Image renaissance in the 90s.
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Old 09-09-17, 11:38 PM   #10
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by Timber View Post
I can't leave out Bill Jemas and Quesada as participants in the decline of Marvel.
Considering they brought Marvel back from the brink after the dark days of the 90s and the current decline happened well after Jemas was out of the picture and Quesada handed the reigns over to Alonso, yeah, you can leave them out of the discussion.
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Old 09-10-17, 08:26 AM   #11
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I'm sorry, since the 80s? You're going to totally ignore stuff like Morrison's New XMen, Whedon's Astonishing, Brubaker's Captain America, Bendis, Brubaker and Waid on Daredevil, cosmic marvel from Annihilation on, Hickman's Fantastic Four, Busiek's Avengers, and countless others?

Sounds like someone who left with the speculator boom/Image renaissance in the 90s.
Yeah, Marvel had a real comeback in the late 90‘s that lasted a few years into the 2000‘s. There's lots of good stuff from that period. It was around the time they started making their own movies and letting Bendis direct the ship that things started to go south in a big way again.
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Old 09-10-17, 01:07 PM   #12
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by atxbomber View Post
Considering they brought Marvel back from the brink after the dark days of the 90s and the current decline happened well after Jemas was out of the picture and Quesada handed the reigns over to Alonso, yeah, you can leave them out of the discussion.
All true. However they made the big push for the "decompressed" storytelling and writing for trades and not the month to month readers that were their bread and butter. When I could read a book in 5 minutes, which I think at the time were $2.95 it became an unwise use of my money. They were the leaders of the more flash than substance brand of storytelling.
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Old 09-10-17, 01:16 PM   #13
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I'm sorry, since the 80s? You're going to totally ignore stuff like Morrison's New XMen, Whedon's Astonishing, Brubaker's Captain America, Bendis, Brubaker and Waid on Daredevil, cosmic marvel from Annihilation on, Hickman's Fantastic Four, Busiek's Avengers, and countless others?
I can't speak for all of the above, but I can say that I tried to get back into Marvel in the early 200X's, and did get some of Bendis' Daredevil, the new Elektra series (which began circa 2001), and the 2006-ish Moon Knight series. All of these series were, overall, steaming piles of shit - especially Bendis' DD - what garbage. I unloaded all of these floppies soon after.

That being said, I did like the Loeb/Sale Daredevil origin mini-series Yellow (2001-ish); but, that was about it.
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Old 09-10-17, 02:46 PM   #14
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.
Marvel's recent problems are more of their own creation than secular changes to the comic book market. That is what most commentators on this issue have said in the past year across the blogosphere. Lots of comic book shop owners are very frustrated with Marvel, not any of the other companies.

Comic books are the only print medium actually growing in revenue over the past decade. Most of that is likely due to the popularity of superhero movies, but there you have it.

Marvel made some disastrously poor creative decisions replacing all of their classic characters at once with replacements while hamstringing brands like the X-Men and Fantastic Four.
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Old 09-10-17, 05:12 PM   #15
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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and the 2006-ish Moon Knight series.
When people tell me they can't get into modern comics, I always point them to Moon Knight 2006. If you don't like that one, you pretty much just don't like comics.
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Old 09-10-17, 05:29 PM   #16
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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When people tell me they can't get into modern comics, I always point them to Moon Knight 2006. If you don't like that one, you pretty much just don't like comics.
Nope, you're wrong there. I was a huge comics fan in the '80's & really enjoyed the classic Moon Knight series by Moench & Sienciewicz - superb stuff here; it was a great marriage of both amazing writing & sublime art. I liked the fact that it was both a super-hero comic & a great noir-like series, with some espionage elements as well. It's too bad that Marvel hasn't reprinted the entire series in color.

Conversely, I read about 4-5 issues of the 2006 series & felt it was garbage - not even close to being as good as the original in any way.

So, telling me I don't like comics just because I don't like the MK 2006 series is bullshit. I've been a comics fan since I was a kid in the '80's, and anyone telling me otherwise is sadly mistaken.
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Old 09-10-17, 07:29 PM   #17
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

It was just hyperbole. There is nothing that is universally loved. Some people (probably with brain injuries) even dislike For the Man Who Has Everything.
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Old 09-10-17, 09:49 PM   #18
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by TheDude View Post
Nope, you're wrong there. I was a huge comics fan in the '80's & really enjoyed the classic Moon Knight series by Moench & Sienciewicz - superb stuff here; it was a great marriage of both amazing writing & sublime art. I liked the fact that it was both a super-hero comic & a great noir-like series, with some espionage elements as well. It's too bad that Marvel hasn't reprinted the entire series in color.

Conversely, I read about 4-5 issues of the 2006 series & felt it was garbage - not even close to being as good as the original in any way.

So, telling me I don't like comics just because I don't like the MK 2006 series is bullshit. I've been a comics fan since I was a kid in the '80's, and anyone telling me otherwise is sadly mistaken.
It was a joke. I just thought the idea of Moon Knight 2006 being some kind of barometer of Marvel's output in the 21st century to be kind of funny. I'd bet that half the people who bought those issues don't even remember that series existed.
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Old 09-11-17, 12:15 AM   #19
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Old 09-14-17, 02:15 AM   #20
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by TheDude View Post
Nope, you're wrong there. I was a huge comics fan in the '80's & really enjoyed the classic Moon Knight series by Moench & Sienciewicz - superb stuff here; it was a great marriage of both amazing writing & sublime art. I liked the fact that it was both a super-hero comic & a great noir-like series, with some espionage elements as well. It's too bad that Marvel hasn't reprinted the entire series in color.

Conversely, I read about 4-5 issues of the 2006 series & felt it was garbage - not even close to being as good as the original in any way.

So, telling me I don't like comics just because I don't like the MK 2006 series is bullshit. I've been a comics fan since I was a kid in the '80's, and anyone telling me otherwise is sadly mistaken.
Yeah Bendis won multiple Eisners for his Daredevil. It may be the best Daredevil run of all time. I've never heard of anyone besides you complain about it. And people love to complain about Bendis.
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Old 09-14-17, 07:09 AM   #21
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Yeah Bendis won multiple Eisners for his Daredevil. It may be the best Daredevil run of all time. I've never heard of anyone besides you complain about it. And people love to complain about Bendis.
I've got a complaint about his run. In one issue, Matt has Luke Cage go intimidate a guy while listening in on a cell phone so we can tell if the guy is lying. Matt says something like "ask the guy on the left if blah blah blah" Luke asks and Matt says "Your other left" like Luke had asked the wrong guy because he doesn't know right from left or something.

But Luke did ask the guy on his left. I'm sure the artist just drew it wrong, but it always bugged me that they didn't just have the letterer change a word to fix it.

But other than that (and the resolution of his White Tiger storyline), Bendis's DD was pretty great.
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Old 09-20-17, 01:44 PM   #22
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

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Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Much too complicated. The reasons are far more simple:

1) The decline of physical media;
2) The insane cost of a single comic; and
3) Way, way, way, way too many titles

The rest is all tertiary.
Yeah, especially #2.

$4 for a 22 page comic that has ads is insane!

That's why I appreciate Omnibus books, which usually come out to around $1 per-issue, and they're over-sized with no ads. So why the fuck would I buy a floppy, other than "supporting the book", which is dumb.
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Old 09-21-17, 10:45 PM   #23
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Re: Marvel Comics Said To Be Experiencing A Heap Of Trouble

This is a bit off topic, and has been posted in the digital deals thread, but Amazon once again has insane discounts on their digital kindle versions of pretty much every marvel collection. Like 30 cents an issue, maybe less. Even collections that came out this week. They had a similar sale back in June or July that I was convinced was a fluke, but now I think they're just insane. Just thought I'd mention it since so we're talking about how expensive comics are.
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