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Old 02-21-16, 08:13 PM   #126
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I think some of you missed the point of the article. Contrary to Marvel, DC has refused to move forward. They were doing that in the mid-late 90's and then Johns and his love for the Super Friends came along and screwed that. I love Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, but Allen should have stayed dead and Jordan should have stayed as the Spectre. Wally West, Kyle Rayner and John Stewart were the new generation. By DC going back to the well and bringing back Hal and Barry, they only pleased old school comic fans, and turned away a new generation that had come up after Emerald Twilight and the Justice League cartoon. That's how Marvel has taken over as the number 1 comic book company in terms of sales and market share and why DC Comics keeps losing fans on a daily basis. As long as DC Comics keeps spinning on its wheels and Johns keeps trying to reboot by going back, they will keep falling behind everyone.
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Old 02-21-16, 09:27 PM   #127
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Except for a tiny blip in the 90s, since the late 60s Marvel has been the #1 comic book company and DC has been playing catch-up.

Superfriends fetish LOL
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Old 02-21-16, 10:31 PM   #128
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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Except for a tiny blip in the 90s, since the late 60s Marvel has been the #1 comic book company and DC has been playing catch-up.

Superfriends fetish LOL
Yeah, but Marvel didn't lost ground to other competitors like Image, IDW, Boom and Dynamite. Since the 2nd year of the New 52, DC has gone down in sales and lost market share to Marvel and all these independent companies. Marvel has mostly been #1 throughout their history but DC was always a close second. Now, they intend to get some ground by flooding the market with this reboot.

And it's common knowledge that Geoff Johns has cited in multiple interviews that Superfriends is his favorite cartoon of all time.

What I don't understand is why people are defending DC Comics so much. Time and time again under Didio, Lee and Johns' regime, they have screwed things in the company in a bad way. Why does anyone think that this will be any different?

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Old 02-21-16, 11:15 PM   #129
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Hal and Barry are just two pieces though.

Even within that bubble, GL:Rebirth started December 2004 and went on to span a critically and commercially successful events in that Green Lantern universe - Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, War of the Green Lanterns and into the New 52. Plus Johns expanded the whole color spectrum which unleashed tons of new stories, characters and merchandising.

And while there are a certain segment/generation of fans who watched a cartoon where John Stewart was their Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner was still the main guy in the comics until Rebirth. You can say DC may have missed the boat by not using Stewart more effectively in the comics but it's very hard to say the backup Lantern from the 70s was part of the "new generation" in the comics.

Flash: Rebirth started April 2009 and we're into the New 52 by August 2011. Waid stumbled with his one Wally & Family arc. Johns stumbled through two arcs with Barry before Flashpoint. And then none if it mattered anyway. If Johns hadn't brought Barry back with Rebirth, the New 52 certainly would have found a way.

I really don't think either of those Rebirths had the effect you may think they had. If anything I think the New 52 chased off both old-but-not-as-old-as-your-old-school-fans who were into guys like Wally West and your classic old-school-fans who were just upset the whole continuity was being voided.

Whether you're resetting the continuity or falling back to classic characters, the bottom line is you have to tell good stories. The New 52 absolutely did that with several titles. But it also failed to do that on many more titles. I think the fact that some of DC's most touted books are Elseworlds/out of continuity is a prime example of "just tell good stories." New Frontier, Kingdom Come, Justice, All-Star Superman, Red Son, The Dark Knight Returns, the Earth One series, the Injustice series - tell people a good story and they'll buy it and apparently keep buying it regardless of the continuity. And when something is working, corporate and editorial need to keep their hands off it, like Williams' Batwoman and Simone's Batgirl. Tell bad stories and you're going to be relying on events and reboots to draw an audience, and it'll make no difference whether you reach back into the Silver Age or wipe the slate totally clean. Readers will come in for the hype and leave when nothing is written well enough or at least novel enough to give them a reason to stay. (Though to be fair, sometimes telling good stories isn't always enough. Sometimes customers/fans just won't buy that non-legacy title no matter how good it is.)

For example, a lot of people are pissed about the changes that the New 52 made to Tim Drake. That's understandable to a degree. But if they were actually telling good stories with Tim, it would matter far less. Instead it was just Lobdell turd sandwiches which made these unpopular changes essentially insult to injury. DC went into the New 52 half cocked when they could have gone in with a much broader roadmap as to how they were going to rebuild an entire universe for a new generation. The company didn't even figure out to have their new logo ready for the New 52. They just hit a panic button.

Marvel does do a better job of DC about moving forward, but Marvel is still riding an event-heavy bubble of success and ultimately the status quo will revert as it always does.
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Old 02-22-16, 10:14 AM   #130
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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By DC going back to the well and bringing back Hal and Barry, they only pleased old school comic fans, and turned away a new generation that had come up after Emerald Twilight and the Justice League cartoon.
I don't know, like kodave, I thought Green Lantern: Rebirth was pretty masterful, and I say that as someone whose first issue of Green Lantern was #51. I think the success of the property post Rebirth speaks for itself as well. Green Lantern was relevant for the first time in years. Johns' work on JSA stands along side GL as well. The way he was able to blend the old with the new and make everything that had come before make sense (to a degree) was really exciting.

I'd agree that Flash: Rebirth was a bridge too far. Johns (and Mark Waid) had done such a wonderful job building up Wally West as "the" Flash only for him to tear it all down in service to his love for Barry Allen. Oh, and in the process he diminished the very thing (Barry sacrificing himself during Crisis) that defined that character. Not Johns' greatest moment. Maybe it would have lead to something great, but Flashpoint and the new 52 rendered the whole thing moot.

What this all means for this new Rebirth, I have no idea. I probably won't be reading any of it either way, so I suppose my opinion's irrelevant anyhow.
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Old 02-22-16, 10:33 AM   #131
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

For the life of my I'll never get why Barry was brought back. Wally West was the template for replacing the person under the costume while continuing to move forward. Kyle's problem as that Hal Jordan was still around. It was a stroke of genius making him go insane and do a heel turn but they wasted it and a good new character in the process. I know nothing ever sticks at Marvel but for a while DC showed us that change good work. Now they're both the same company and everything is just a gimmick to sell more comics and they will always go back to the status quo.
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Old 02-22-16, 11:04 AM   #132
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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And it's common knowledge that Geoff Johns has cited in multiple interviews that Superfriends is his favorite cartoon of all time.
So if Joe Quesada's favorite cartoon of all time is, say, "Battle of the Planets"... what does that mean entirely? Just because you love something doesn't mean it guides your creative direction.

Johns's JSA run in the 2000s is the epitome of taking icons from the past (in JSA's case, the deep past) while updating and evolving them. That was a masterful series.
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Old 02-22-16, 01:35 PM   #133
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Barry coming back was long, long overdue and Johns rectified that mistake. Where DC went wrong was basically dumping Wally into the void and refusing to use him in the new 52. DC's core readers wanted Barry back. I thought Johns's handling of Green Lantern in Rebirth was masterful.

I still believe most of DC's problems revolve around their handling of Superman. He's the linchpin character of their universe but he's been treated as an also-ran for many years. Until they figure out how to properly handle Superman, everything else will never work completely right.

If starting DC from scratch, I probably wouldn't make Superman a member of the Justice League. In fact, I would have the Justice League form as a counterpoint to a mega-powerful Superman. Shazam (can we please return to calling him Captain Marvel?) would take Superman's place in the Justice League.
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Old 02-22-16, 02:15 PM   #134
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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So if Joe Quesada's favorite cartoon of all time is, say, "Battle of the Planets"... what does that mean entirely? Just because you love something doesn't mean it guides your creative direction.
Maybe not for Quesada. But Johns definitely takes the Super Friends to heart. Tho it hasn't got me a god-damn Apache Chief mini-series yet.


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Johns's JSA run in the 2000s is the epitome of taking icons from the past (in JSA's case, the deep past) while updating and evolving them. That was a masterful series.
He did have help from David Goyer for a chunk of that run (with James Robinson setting up the tone).


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Barry coming back was long, long overdue and Johns rectified that mistake. Where DC went wrong was basically dumping Wally into the void and refusing to use him in the new 52. DC's core readers wanted Barry back. I thought Johns's handling of Green Lantern in Rebirth was masterful.
Bringing Barry back and having him usurp the role of the Flash is a pretty major mistake in my opinion. Barry's death was poignant and made sense as DC moved forward, closing the door on the Silver Age and multiple Earths (both of which, Barry's Flash introduced). DC taking a giant step backward to bring both him and Hal back was just shit.


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I still believe most of DC's problems revolve around their handling of Superman. He's the lynchpin character of their universe but he's been treated as an also-ran for many years. Until they figure out how to properly handle Superman, everything else will never work completely right.

If starting DC from scratch, I probably wouldn't make Superman a member of the Justice League. In fact, I would have the Justice League form as a counterpoint to a mega-powerful Superman. Shazam (can we please return to calling him Captain Marvel?) would take Superman's place in the Justice League.
They tried keeping Superman out of the League right after the Crisis (and made a mess of JL continuity). Superman needs to be a member of the Justice League. He's supposed to be the character others look up to. Unfortunately, as you mentioned DC does not know how to handle Superman anymore.
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Old 02-22-16, 02:35 PM   #135
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I was against bringing Hal back, but I recognize that there was demand for it.

Was there ever any demand to bring Barry back? People seemed to be onboard with Wally for years.
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Old 02-22-16, 02:40 PM   #136
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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He did have help from David Goyer for a chunk of that run (with James Robinson setting up the tone).
.
Neither of which lasted on that title more than a year, IIRC. Regardless, it was Johns alone who drove that ship for the vast majority of his run.

Anyway, bringing Hal back was important after the clusterfuck of Emerald Twilight and its fallout. Kyle Rayner was a pandering joke of a character (I can't stand it when middle-aged writers are convinced readers can only relate to "young"/"teen" characters -- you think more kids wanted to be Jake Lloyd or Harrison Ford?)

Not as pandering as the 90s Superboy (HAIRCUT! EARRING! LEATHER JACKET!! EXTREME!!!) but on that road, anyhow.

Bringing Barry back and sidelining Wally was odd, but everything after the return was pretty stellar. Same with Green Lantern after Hal.
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Old 02-22-16, 03:35 PM   #137
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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Neither of which lasted on that title more than a year, IIRC. Regardless, it was Johns alone who drove that ship for the vast majority of his run.
Goyer was actually around for the first 50 or so issues. What level of actual involvement he had, I can't say, but I think it's fair to say that book had Johns' fingerprints all over it regardless of who he was working with.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:28 PM   #138
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Valeyard replied what I was going to say about Johns, his affection for Super Friends and his run on JSA. Again, don't get me wrong. Johns did an incredible job in JSA, Green Lantern and even Flash. My issue with him, Didio and Jim Lee is the fact that the company hasn't move forward. And not only they haven't move forward, they went back to Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and essentially wiped out Kyle Rayner and Wally West out of DC Comics. And again, what DC Comics is doing and has done for the past 7-10 years, hasn't worked. Sales prove this. Loss in market share proves this. Fan rejection of the product proves this. Why are people giving votes of confidence to these trio at helm of the company is what surprises me the most. This is the same group of people who thought that giving multiple books to Rob Liefeld and Scott Lobdell was the answer to DC's problems.
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Old 02-22-16, 11:35 PM   #139
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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Valeyard replied what I was going to say about Johns, his affection for Super Friends and his run on JSA. Again, don't get me wrong. Johns did an incredible job in JSA, Green Lantern and even Flash. My issue with him, Didio and Jim Lee is the fact that the company hasn't move forward. And not only they haven't move forward, they went back to Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and essentially wiped out Kyle Rayner and Wally West out of DC Comics. And again, what DC Comics is doing and has done for the past 7-10 years, hasn't worked. Sales prove this. Loss in market share proves this. Fan rejection of the product proves this. Why are people giving votes of confidence to these trio at helm of the company is what surprises me the most. This is the same group of people who thought that giving multiple books to Rob Liefeld and Scott Lobdell was the answer to DC's problems.
I don't think that many people are giving them votes of confidence.

To me, there's a difference between "If anyone is going to pull off Rebirth, it's Johns" and "Should they even be doing a Rebirth at all?" Johns can and probably will pull off this creative endeavor. Is it going to lead to a company wide turn around? I wouldn't bet on it.

And I still think you're really hung up on the whole Hal/Barry thing. It's utterly inconsequential to bigger problem as I already outlined above. Hal went on to sell a shit ton of books (relative to the rest of DC). Barry was only around for two years pre-Flashpoint - hardly enough time to do irreversible damage. And then New 52 Barry sold well enough and had a well reviewed run under the first creative team (though that seems to have been undone by Venditti).

DC is absolutely doing something wrong with creatively and with their business model, but it's not all about bringing back a couple of old characters. You could probably write an entire book about different missteps over the past 25 years that brought us to today. You might even be able to go further than that:



And it seems like DC has been behind in total sales dollar share and total sales unit share ever since, especially in the 2002-2015 data Diamond has publicly available. Things got really nasty for DC between 2007 and 2010, and it wasn't until the New 52 was in full swing in 2012 that DC pulled closer to Marvel. DC posted pretty bad numbers in 2014 and 2015, so now we're looking at Rebirth for 2016.

And I'm sure it'll pay off short term, just like the New 52 did. As much as people bitch and moan about this kind of stuff, reboots, new #1s, and events sell big. Hardcore comic buyers can't seem to help themselves with these gimmicks. Will it be enough to close the gap with Marvel? Probably not.

If Rebirth flops like DC You did, or doesn't result in long term change like the New 52 failed to do, then I would expect there is going to be some movement within the Lee/DiDio/Harrass departments. Though I have no idea how easy it is to get rid of co-publishers, but Harrass as EiC would be easy to fire. Johns is going nowhere though. He's got his finger in every WB/DC superhero media project. He's far more important to WB's overall strategy with DC IP and I'm surprised he's taking on as much comic work as he is at this point.
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Old 02-23-16, 12:34 AM   #140
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

That graph posted is the best proof I've seen why DC must have felt the first Crisis was necessary.

It is very weird to see comic book sales dip for both companies after Superman: The Movie, a major box office success, came out. They don't start rebounding until 1981.

I don't think the movies have ever really sold comics very well. The only exception I can really point to is Batman (1988), which did help trigger the eventual boom years before speculators went wild.
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Old 03-27-16, 10:16 AM   #141
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

New creative teams announced.

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-rebirth...nts-wondercon/

I may check out The Flash because I love the character, but I'm not familiar with the creative team. Otherwise, I shall remain DC free.
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Old 03-27-16, 04:53 PM   #142
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I saw the entire panel yesterday and 2 things are bugging me about the whole thing:
1- No Justice Society or Legion of Superheroes? Every thing shows that they are only focusing on the present heroes.
2- Wally West seems to be a younger version of the New 52 character.

DC says they are going back to continuity, so how the hell are they going to explain who was the Flash when Barry Allen died? Although there some interesting books coming in this Rebirth, Didio and company keep dragging the confusing, contradictory New 52 in all of this.
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Old 03-27-16, 05:05 PM   #143
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Man I feel like an aging cynic but almost none of that excites me at all. I've been following Titans Hunt but it's honestly not been that impressive, and it seems like I can safely jump off Batgirl if they're changing creative teams. If it's good, I'll seek out the trades. I guess I appreciate the nod to diversity (Black Kid Flash, minority green lanterns, Asian Superman) but I kinda doubt any of that will stick.

In a weird way if that Damien Wayne/Jon Kent book is any good and at least semi suitable for younger kids I may pick it up. I miss Peter David's Young Justice.
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Old 03-27-16, 07:28 PM   #144
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

What is Peter David up to lately?
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Old 03-29-16, 12:45 AM   #145
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

Despite being a DC purist, I am mostly excited after seeing their plans for Rebirth. It seems like we may have multiple Supermen running around again.
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Old 03-31-16, 01:56 AM   #146
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

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What is Peter David up to lately?
He has his own web site.

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Old 04-06-16, 04:56 PM   #147
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I'll stick with Valiant. They're creating and releasing far more interesting stuff these days.
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Old 04-12-16, 08:17 PM   #148
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I have in my hand the much awaited DC Previews book that wasn't included in the regular Previews for this month. It's supposed to inform everyone about the whole DC Rebirth thing. And DC has already screwed this up. First, they shorted retailers on this book by 1/3. Then, on page 3 they announce in big bold letters that the DC Universe: Rebirth #1 comes out on JUNE 1ST!!! And on page 4 they say that it's coming May 25th. WTF?!? Can't these people do anything right? Seriously!
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Old 04-12-16, 09:34 PM   #149
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

I hope someone got fired for that blunder.
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Old 04-14-16, 03:07 PM   #150
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Re: DC Comics to relaunch everything with #1s in June 2016

It seems that with all the hints that the DC Rebirth previews gave readers plus what's going on in the current books, it has become almost a certainty that they person who will die on the Rebirth #1 one shot will be

Spoiler:

New 52 Superman
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