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Old 04-28-10, 12:13 PM   #51
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Re: The Dark Tower

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The question is why would King do that? He was fully aware of what he was doing. How could he not be? To me it seems that King was saying Roland has always been his worst enemy, not Flagg, in spite of the antagonism. So it's fitting in many ways that Roland doesn't get to directly kill him (indirectly of course his son does). He still hasn't overcome his own demons, so he can have no bigger enemy. Roland doesn't kill the Crimson King either, but he does kill Mordred who is actually Roland's physical manifestation of his inner demons.

Good point --- just given that Flagg was essentially with Roland from the very first sentence of the series it seemed like an odd way to exit him out. I expected Roland to do it.
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Old 04-29-10, 02:43 PM   #52
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Re: The Dark Tower

He'll be back. Other worlds and all that. I don't think the worldslinger would Boba Fett the ageless stranger like.

Hoping he'll make an appearance in Talisman 3.
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Old 04-29-10, 04:15 PM   #53
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Re: The Dark Tower

Flagg is dead and I don't expect to see him again (unless Talisman 3 takes place prior to DT7, or some other work).
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Old 04-29-10, 04:27 PM   #54
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Flagg is dead and I don't expect to see him again (unless Talisman 3 takes place prior to DT7, or some other work).
He is Legion.
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Old 04-29-10, 04:51 PM   #55
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Old 04-29-10, 05:27 PM   #56
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Re: The Dark Tower

Flagg did have a very Boba fett way of going out in the Dark Tower. Very disappointing.
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Old 04-29-10, 07:21 PM   #57
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Re: The Dark Tower

He got away at the last second in Eyes of the Dragon(hit in the eye with and arrow and disappears), he got away at the last second of the expanded The Stand(nuked/hand of god and disappears). He had a last second when Mordred changes from baby to spider.

Probably not but a guy can hope.
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Old 06-28-10, 08:06 PM   #58
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Re: The Dark Tower

I'm reading Book 4 again and thinking of the movie, Stephen Moyer popped into my head as Roland:


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Old 07-02-10, 12:31 PM   #59
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Re: The Dark Tower

I just pictured Roland as a young Clint Eastwood... but the guy above looks eerily like him anyways.
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Old 07-26-10, 02:07 PM   #60
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Re: The Dark Tower

I loved the first three Dark Tower books. Used to pester the local B. Dalton's asking them if they'd heard anything about a release date between books. I can re-read those three books again and again. Book 4....so-so. I thought the whole "Wizard of Oz" think was kinda flaky. But then, after an eternity, book 5 appeared and I loved every second of it. It was like he caught his second wind and got his mojo back. But then...book 6 was dull and went nowhere. Book 7 was fine, although it covered so much ground it was sorta tiring. I was okay with the ending, but some things along the way irked me.

I felt that King rushed the ending just to get it over with. He swept Flagg under the rug and introduced Spider-Boy just so he could kill Flagg then conveinently die from food poison and gunshot wounds. I'm not entirely against King appearing in his own book, I guess.

The worst thing King did though was revise Book 1. I wish I never read the revised version. It was awful. King painted himself into a corner so he just decides Martin and Walter are one and the same to make his job of finishing the series off easier. My head hurt after reading it, like Roland's did in The Waste Lands dealing with the fact that Jake was both dead and alive or something.

I stopped reading King after the Dark Tower ended (well...okay, I read Cell too, but I wish I hadn't). It just felt like the right time to part ways. His books had been going downhill for me for a while. I read my first King in 5th grade (Pet Sematary). My bookshelf still proudly displays a complete set of King hardcovers, but I feel no need to read anything further by him, even though I'm sure there's probably some good stuff popping out now and then. There are other things in this life that need to be read and my time keeps getting shorter and shorter so I need to spread myself around like manure. I'll always consider Mr. King a friend and revisit my favorite books by him whenever I get a chance.
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Old 07-26-10, 02:29 PM   #61
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Re: The Dark Tower

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I feel no need to read anything further by him, even though I'm sure there's probably some good stuff popping out now and then.
I did pretty much the same as you read everything he did up through DT7 and fell off after that. Never finished Buick or Cell. However, Under the Dome is amazing. Vintage King. Something you should put on your reading list.
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Old 07-26-10, 03:59 PM   #62
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Re: The Dark Tower

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I felt that King rushed the ending just to get it over with. He swept Flagg under the rug and introduced Spider-Boy just so he could kill Flagg then conveinently die from food poison and gunshot wounds. I'm not entirely against King appearing in his own book, I guess.
Yea, I don't see how any of it was rushed. And I think myself and others have put up really good defenses for why Mordred was introduced and Flagg was taken out that way. Flagg was never really Roland's problem, Roland was Roland's problem (Mordred being the physical manifestation of this, so Roland's offspring killing Flagg fits even better)). It's why he had to keep going through the cycle. Roland didn't deserve to kill Flagg. And Flagg, like most King evil doers, didn't get a glorious death, he got a sad pathetic one. King loves to pull the old okey-doke on the baddies. There's plenty of thematic reasons for Flagg's death. Whereas Boba Fett's just seemed like a joke for Lucas.

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The worst thing King did though was revise Book 1. I wish I never read the revised version. It was awful. King painted himself into a corner so he just decides Martin and Walter are one and the same to make his job of finishing the series off easier. My head hurt after reading it, like Roland's did in The Waste Lands dealing with the fact that Jake was both dead and alive or something.
I prefer the revised book. But I read it first, and much preferred the tie-ins to the rest of the series. I also like that it works on a meta level, thanks to the the whole cycle idea. I'd love if he revised the next 3 too. It's not that different anyway.
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Old 07-28-10, 10:53 AM   #63
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Re: The Dark Tower

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I did pretty much the same as you read everything he did up through DT7 and fell off after that. Never finished Buick or Cell. However, Under the Dome is amazing. Vintage King. Something you should put on your reading list.
I think I'm "Kinged Out" right now myself.... I have Under the Dome but another 1000 pager sounds like reading burnout to me. That said I just cracked open The Passage and it checks in at 750 so I guess that's a double standard

I felt some of the moments in the series were drawn out or corny but I also felt compelled to have to read every page from start to finish. No story short of Crime and Punishment has stuck with me longer than this set of novels.
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Old 07-28-10, 02:01 PM   #64
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Re: The Dark Tower

Killing Flagg may have been thematically acceptable, but it sure wasn't satisfying. I'd argue he didn't have any real reason. He could have come up with something a lot more satisfactory without compromising the story. Hell, the whole book exposed the fact that he pictures himself as the god of his book world. He can do anything.
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Old 07-31-10, 07:33 AM   #65
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Re: The Dark Tower

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They were only important in how Roland saw them, they were bad mostly because of how much they bothered Roland. Roland has always been his worst enemy, a lot of the bad shit is Roland's fault. It's his mess ups and screw ups and obsession with the Tower that allows for the horrors in his life and those around him. So it's fitting how inconsequential they wound up being. It also shouldn't surprise anyone who's ever read King's work. The banality of evil is a large theme in his works.

I never had a problem with the way Flagg died... I always just looked at it as Flagg thought he was bigger and stronger than he actually was, he was only the face of evil because we only saw the lands that he was able to be a bad ass. Once you get a glimpse in to the actual structure of the the way the bad guys work you realize Flagg is a small cog, there are much bigger players in the game. I thought the way he died fit well, he was cast aside because he wasn't really that important in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 09-08-10, 10:34 PM   #66
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Re: The Dark Tower

Ron Howard and Akiva Goldsmith are going to make three movies and a tv series based on the dark tower!

http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2010/...he-dark-tower/
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Old 09-09-10, 07:37 AM   #67
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Ron Howard and Akiva Goldsmith are going to make three movies and a tv series based on the dark tower!

http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2010/...he-dark-tower/
Excellent news!
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Old 09-09-10, 08:37 AM   #68
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Re: The Dark Tower

If y'all want to be part of the Movie Talk thread: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/...ar-god-no.html
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Old 10-13-16, 05:54 PM   #69
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Re: The Dark Tower

Looks like we're getting a complete Dark Tower box-set.





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Old 11-22-16, 04:40 PM   #70
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Re: The Dark Tower

Here's how I see the series. I liken it to the MPAA ratings system. A filmmaker submits their film to the ratings board in hopes of getting an R rating. It comes back with an NC-17. You have to make changes then resubmit. You may have to do this dozens of times as they never tell you what to cut or change. Each time you submit I believe it costs you $10,000.

Now, Roland reaches the Tower yet finds himself back in the desert where he started but with the Horn of Eld. He must do it again but not the same. He must change something to get a different result. Maybe not let Jake go in the mountains. Maybe him being with you on the beach will prevent you from getting your fingers and toes bitten by the Lobstrosities.

Who knows how many times Roland has made this journey. Once? Twice? 19 times?

I think the ending was exactly what it needed to be. I'm glad King wrote this epic as I believe it will stand the test of time.
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Old 11-23-16, 05:15 AM   #71
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Here's how I see the series. I liken it to the MPAA ratings system. A filmmaker submits their film to the ratings board in hopes of getting an R rating. It comes back with an NC-17. You have to make changes then resubmit. You may have to do this dozens of times as they never tell you what to cut or change. Each time you submit I believe it costs you $10,000.

Now, Roland reaches the Tower yet finds himself back in the desert where he started but with the Horn of Eld. He must do it again but not the same. He must change something to get a different result. Maybe not let Jake go in the mountains. Maybe him being with you on the beach will prevent you from getting your fingers and toes bitten by the Lobstrosities.

Who knows how many times Roland has made this journey. Once? Twice? 19 times?

I think the ending was exactly what it needed to be. I'm glad King wrote this epic as I believe it will stand the test of time.
I understand why people are saying this is a great ending to the story but I have to continue to disagree. It might be a good ending IF Roland realised that this was happening and that he has a chance to make a change but without that realization, the entire story is pointless. Everyone comes up with these numbers of how many times he might have been thru this process, they make a big point of the fact that on the latest go around, he has the horn. But in fact, we have no idea how many times he has done this, you throw out numbers like once, twice or 19 times. I say 20,000 or 100,000 or 25 million. It is all speculation. To think that the horn will make a difference is more speculation, he might have had that horn 60,000 times in other cycles for all that we know.

Let me give you an analogy. Have you ever played a video game? I am going to use Miss Pac-man as my model.

You put a quarter in the game (old school) and the game lights up and Miss Pac-man can move on the screen. You can move her right or left, up or down, you can grab the fruit and you can even eat the ghost to clear a screen. Eventually you get to new screens and clear them until sometime down the road, one of the ghosts get you and you get the joy of starting over again. Now it's a great game and I have enjoyed many hours of playing it, BUT, do you think that Miss Pac-man is happy because this time she gets pushed to the right at the start instead of the left? Do you think she has the memory of starting to the left the last time? That on the last game she got the fruit or ate the ghosts before they killed her?

And so this is my point. I thought the journey of the story was great, King tells a vibrant story. But in this case, it is literally meaningless. It actually has no meaning, because it has no ending. EVERYTHING that Roland does is absolutely pointless (just like Miss Pac-man). He ended no suffering, he accomplished no goals, he saved no lives, he made no friends. EVERYTHING he did, he will have to do again and again and again for eternity as far as we can tell. He is living in hell. His existence is pointless and he is doomed to relive his pointless existence eternally. And that is why I hate the twist ending. Because it is not an ending. It is just another quarter in the slot for Roland to play again. And in the due course of time, someone is just going to unplug the machine and throw it away.

To me, and I realise this is not everyone's opinion, this "ending" is one of the worst I have ever read. There isn't hope that so many are expressing with his horn by his side this time. There is only eternal punishment of reliving this over and over again. And I wanted better for Roland. I thought he deserved that. King evidently didn't.

Last word, if any of you have seen the movie Dr Strange, there is a similar event at the end of this movie. A time loop the the bad guy doesn't want to keep living in. He decides that he will give you ANYTHING to avoid having to relive that loop for eternity. But there is a MAJOR difference here. He was aware that he was reliving this, Roland isn't. Roland and Miss Pac-man. Pawns til the end of time.

Last edited by MScottM; 11-23-16 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 11-23-16, 05:25 AM   #72
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Re: The Dark Tower

All of that being said, I am looking forward to the movie. Just hope that they end it this time.
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Old 11-23-16, 08:25 AM   #73
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Re: The Dark Tower

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I understand why people are saying this is a great ending to the story but I have to continue to disagree. It might be a good ending IF Roland [realized] that this was happening and that he has a chance to make a change but without that realization, the entire story is pointless....
Except, a change was made. You're assuming the fact that he has the horn is a random occurrence, while my reading of the ending is that it heavily implies that there's a progression.

It's been a while since I read the last book, but from what I recall, Roland specifically reflected on the horn while in the Dark Tower, specifically regretting losing it. So the next time round, he has the horn.

With all the talk of Ka in the series, I see the ending as a reflection on the concept of Karma and re-incarnation. Each time Roland reaches the Tower, he's done a little better as a person, and so each time he "restarts" in an incrementally better position.

To put it into video game terms, it's a bit like the games where, once you finish, you can replay the game, but maybe you start over again with your current player stats, and the game itself is a little different.

Or another way to look at it, the ending now reminds me of the recent Doctor Who episode "Heaven Sent," and Roland is, to paraphrase The Doctor, "one hell of a bird."
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Old 11-23-16, 11:32 AM   #74
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Re: The Dark Tower

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Except, a change was made. You're assuming the fact that he has the horn is a random occurrence, while my reading of the ending is that it heavily implies that there's a progression.
I totally understand why you HOPE the horn has meaning. And no I am not assuming that the horn being with him on this go around is a random event. What I am stating is the FACT that we don't KNOW that it is significant. And I don't agree that it implies that there is a progression.

This type of ending is called a "Sisyphean Ending". Named after Sisyphus of greek mythology. This strongly implies that Roland will never end his journey.

Ask yourself this, why did he want the horn? What does the horn do? In which situations that we saw Roland in, would the horn help him? Since Roland now has the horn, what will he do differently this go around?

The answers of course are, we dont know, we don't know, we don't know and we don't know. So you placing meaning in the fact that he has the horn is PURELY speculation and the fact that having invested so much of your time and hope in the Roland character, you WANT the horn to mean something. But there is no reason for you to think that other than your hopes, wishes and desires.

And that my friend is why I think the ending sucks. Authors tell stories and we listen, watch or read them expecting a conclusion of some sort. It doesn't have to be spelled out, THE END. It can be hanging with the understanding that the end is within reach or that it is in sight. What King did with neither, my take away was that no matter what Roland does, if he saves Jake or not, if he draws the three or not, it he rides Blaine the train or not, it doesn't matter. When he gets to the top of the tower, he will keep finding himself in the desert. And nothing in the book says differently.

In this regard, HE failed as the author. I am not being obtuse or stupid here. If a story ends and 10 different people that read it have 10 different theories about the ending, then there isn't an ending. And with this story, that's the one thing it lacks.

It would be as valid to end the story as it stands now by saying, "Roland placed the horn to his lips. He trumpeted a mighty blast, in the distance dust rose. The dust thickened into a whirlwind which towered into the skies, and at the apex Roland saw a house. The house was spinning within the whirlwind and when it landed with a crash, only the feet of the Crimson King could be seen sticking out from beneath it.Roland then walks into the dark tower."

Silly, yes. Valid ending to this story? Sure, why not. Maybe that is exactly what the horn does. Care to speculate a little?
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Old 11-23-16, 11:42 AM   #75
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Re: The Dark Tower

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I totally understand why you HOPE the horn has meaning. And no I am not assuming that the horn being with him on this go around is a random event. What I am stating is the FACT that we don't KNOW that it is significant. And I don't agree that it implies that there is a progression.

This type of ending is called a "Sisyphean Ending". Named after Sisyphus of greek mythology. This strongly implies that Roland will never end his journey.

Ask yourself this, why did he want the horn? What does the horn do? In which situations that we saw Roland in, would the horn help him? Since Roland now has the horn, what will he do differently this go around?
Sisyphus was doomed to repeat the same task unending and unchanging. Roland's journey has changed, so it's not Sisyphean.

Also, you're expecting the horn to have a practical impact on the journey somehow, which I don't think is the significance. Instead, it's a reflection on how Roland himself has changed. Previously, he was a person who left the horn where it lay without hesitation. He later regretted that. This time around, he took the horn with him, reflecting a change in his character this time around. He's slowly becoming a better person.
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