Yuri

The Synapse DVD of "Triumph of the Will" is supposedly being released on Tuesday. Has anyone seen it yet or can anyone refer me to an online review?

starship19

ive seen it...basically it is like 2 hours(maybe longer i forget) of nazis marching around town. Its liek the thanksgiving day parade with Hitler...i wouldnt such much repeat value in this film...for me it was a one time watch thing...sickening to see how much control hitler had and how great this film made him out to be....it is good as a piece of evidence of the propoganda used in Nazi Germany...but aside from that I dont know..not really my cup of tea...just lots of marching nazis and nazi music.

MattParksII

Yuri,

Try here:

http://briankoller.epinions.com/mvie...0-384DB58F-bd3

There's not a whole lot to say about this movie. Although it has some technically well-composed shots, it's basically trying to show the Nazis as glorious, which in retrospect is a pretty horrible thing. But that's what propaganda is for.

For historical perspective, you might also want to see The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl (1993) , a documentary about the films director.

Gonnosuke

Despite being offensive to many people it's still considered to be one of the great cinematic achievements. The direction and imagery are first rate and it was probably the most powerful piece of propaganda ever put on film.

-Gonnosuke

Matt Parks

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gonnosuke:
it's still considered to be one of the great cinematic achievements
-Gonnosuke<HR>

This is overstating the merits of the film somewhat.

Oatsdad

The Synapse DVD has been delayed again - it's now due out on February 13...

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bdots48

I hope this one really does have the Riefenstahl commentary on it - it will be worth the wait.

Gonnosuke

Matt - I don't think I was overstating at all. There are many things about this film that are outstanding considering the time period it was made. Brilliant propaganda has to be considered a brilliant use of cinema and to this day this movie is the greatest piece of propaganda ever produced. Mesmerizing, manipulative and captivating - and when you consider it was made in 1934 it's all the more impressive.

-Gonnosuke

MattParksII

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gonnosuke:
Matt - I don't think I was overstating at all. There are many things about this film that are outstanding considering the time period it was made. Brilliant propaganda has to be considered a brilliant use of cinema and to this day this movie is the greatest piece of propaganda ever produced. Mesmerizing, manipulative and captivating - and when you consider it was made in 1934 it's all the more impressive.

-Gonnosuke<HR>

Sure, its the great propaganda film, but in terms of artistic acheivement, that's maybe one notch above making the definitive beer commercial. Art and propaganda don't mix.

Pudthai

I thought "The Cider House Rules" was an impressive piece of propaganda. What are considered the great pieces of propaganda? Any communist propaganda out there?

Birdcell

quote:<HR>Originally posted by MattParksII:
Sure, its the great propaganda film, but in terms of artistic acheivement, that's maybe one notch above making the definitive beer commercial. Art and propaganda don't mix.
<HR>

I'm not sure I agree here. Sure, most propaganda is pretty horrible. But look at "Birth of a Nation," a vital cinematic breakthrough with an abhorrent propagandistic purpose. How about "Battleship Potemkin", speaking of pro-Communist propaganda -- that was also a singular, landmark film.

"Triumph of the Will" is most definitely a landmark from a purely cinematic perspective. (It was seen to be so early on. When the Museum of Modern Art wanted to edit down a version for it's archives, they asked none other than Luis Bunuel to do so.)

Indeed, that's why it's all the more chilling: the best propaganda film ever made was put in service toward the most dangerous and repellent political movement in centuries. Talk about the power of imagery -- it can sweeten even the foulest dogma.

As a side note, though I think she's in serious denial, Riefenstahl claims that "Triumph of the Will" was intended to be a documentary rather than a propaganda piece.

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PLEASE NOTE: Any similarities between the opinions written above and the opinions of anyone living or dead are purely coincidental.

Gonnosuke

Well said Birdcell...

I think it's important to point out that I said it was a "great cinematic achievement". The film is frighteningly effective and I truly think it's a landmark film.

As for the statement, "Art and propaganda don't mix" I strongly disagree. I think in order for propaganda to be effective it has to be highly artistic. The artistry is what triggers the emotional response that in turn makes the propaganda effective.

I agree that Riefenstahl is seriously in denial about this movie. It's so clearly propaganda that to call it anything else is madness.

-Gonnosuke


[This message has been edited by Gonnosuke (edited January 11, 2001).]

Matt Parks

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Birdcell:
I'm not sure I agree here. Sure, most propaganda is pretty horrible. But look at "Birth of a Nation," a vital cinematic breakthrough with an abhorrent propagandistic purpose. How about "Battleship Potemkin", speaking of pro-Communist propaganda -- that was also a singular, landmark film.

"Triumph of the Will" is most definitely a landmark from a purely cinematic perspective. (It was seen to be so early on. When the Museum of Modern Art wanted to edit down a version for it's archives, they asked none other than Luis Bunuel to do so.)

Indeed, that's why it's all the more chilling: the best propaganda film ever made was put in service toward the most dangerous and repellent political movement in centuries. Talk about the power of imagery -- it can sweeten even the foulest dogma.

As a side note, though I think she's in serious denial, Riefenstahl claims that "Triumph of the Will" was intended to be a documentary rather than a propaganda piece.

<HR>

I don't think we disagree in principle, but the comparison you are making is unwarranted. Riefenstahl doesn't compare to Griffith or Eisenstein as a filmmaker, and will there may be certain ideological content to the films you mention, both of them were filmmakers first and agents of the state only tangentially (look at how quickly Eisenstein fell off the party line). The film is important more as a historical document rather than as pure cinema. If the Nazis hadn't been so influential in history, there is no way this film, or Riefenstahl as a filmmaker, would still be standing on its own artistic merits.

Birdcell

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Matt Parks:
I don't think we disagree in principle, but the comparison you are making is unwarranted. Riefenstahl doesn't compare to Griffith or Eisenstein as a filmmaker, and will there may be certain ideological content to the films you mention, both of them were filmmakers first and agents of the state only tangentially (look at how quickly Eisenstein fell off the party line).<HR>

I think a lot of our differences (more below) are mainly of definition. I think my definition of "propaganda" is looser than yours, as I think you mean it to imply specifically state- or party-made films. My definition includes the last clause of Webster's definition:

"The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine or cause. "

Either way, I still disagree with the general statement that "art and propaganda don't mix." For example, I find that a lot of the official Soviet Communist propaganda posters to be very beautiful, however much I disagree with their intent.

quote:<HR> The film is important more as a historical document rather than as pure cinema. If the Nazis hadn't been so influential in history, there is no way this film, or Riefenstahl as a filmmaker, would still be standing on its own artistic merits. <HR>

I think it's much much more than a historical docmument. Riefenstahl's artistry shows in her composition, her pacing, her selection of content. For example, the opening sequence in which we see clouds, then Nuremberg from Hitler's plane, followed by shots of crowds on the ground reacting to the plane, deliberately gives the effect of Hitler as a messianic figure. This is in contrast to a mere historical document such as the Zapruder film, which impassively records the action.

If you define "art" as intentionally manipulating an image/sound/etc. in order to reach a desired effect on a viewer, Riefenstahl was not only creating art, but was particularly good at it. Perhaps not as good as Eisenstein or Griffith, but certainly up there, imho. Of course, at heart we're debating about something terribly subjective, but I found "Triumph of the Will" to be horrifyingly effective.
[/B]

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PLEASE NOTE: Any similarities between the opinions written above and the opinions of anyone living or dead are purely coincidental.

[This message has been edited by Birdcell (edited January 11, 2001).]

Matt Parks

Again, I'm not saying there are not some impressive elements to the film, but to say that is one of "great cinematic acheivements" and to compare it to "Birth of a Nation" and "Battleship Potemkin" is hyperbolic.

Matt Parks

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pudthai:
What are considered the great pieces of propaganda? <HR>

this is exactly my point. It's not like there are thousands of other propaganda films out there that Triumph of the Will has to compete with. Look at the films that Hitchcock made for the British Ministry of Intelligence. They're not exactly his best work.

Gonnosuke

I think we agree to disagree.

This was an unusually tame and intelligent discussion of the movie. Hopefully some of the questions the original poster had have been answered.

-Gonnosuke

Pudthai

"The Cider House Rules" was nominated for Best Picture at the Acadamy Awards. It did not win, but it must have impacted a few thousand or so. However, "Triumph of the Will" must have impacted millions. It was actually used as a tool to brainwash the people into supporting a movement. Apparently, history reveals that it was very effective. Maybe that is a good reason to buy "Triumph of the Will" on dvd: to view, arguably, the most effective propaganda film of all time. I may purchase this work of art just to keep for historical reference on the Nazi movement and as a good example of how big government can brainwash the people. I sure would like to guard myself from such propaganda. But, effective film, commercial, or movie propaganda, would not enable one to easily guard against the artist's point of view, but instead, would trigger some emotional response that is favorable to the artist's point of view. I wonder what pieces of propaganda have influenced my beliefs? I just hope I am on the good side and not on the dark side.

Matt Parks

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gonnosuke:
I think we agree to disagree.

This was an unusually tame and intelligent discussion of the movie. Hopefully some of the questions the original poster had have been answered.

-Gonnosuke<HR>

Agreed.

Birdcell

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Matt Parks:
Agreed.
<HR>

Same here.

BTW, given some of the other debates I see on this board, I was half-expecting some yahoo chime in about how great Hitler was...

Matt Parks

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Birdcell:
given some of the other debates I see on this board, I was half-expecting some yahoo chime in about how great Hitler was...

<HR>

Yeah, that's the trouble with a film like this, you can't say anything complimentary about it without the chance that somebody is going to start posting there "political" views.

Gonnosuke

Twenty posts and no political comments? The trolls are really starting to be slackers around here.

-Gonnosuke

BearFan

I will second the recommendation to also take a look at The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl, I purchased this DVD a while back and it is a fascinating story about a very competant and very controversial figure. I think the documentary does a great job of not making a Black and White call that Leni was a Nazi shill or she was a victem of circumstances, they provide. Despite any feelings towards here, there is no doubt that she has lived a very interesting life and has had an impact on both film and politics

MattParksII

Another interesting take on propaganda is Mother Night, based on Kurt Vonnegut's novel.