jeredman

This player looks freggin' excellent:
http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=e&i...000___Samsung_

I have been tearing my hair out trying to find out if and when it will be available, and exactly how much.

Anyone have any further info?

DaveMorales

...Nuon is a DIVX in the making... soon to be relegated to the technology graveyard....

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A free Tibet - Keep Hope alive...

[This message has been edited by DaveMorales (edited March 20, 2000).]

jeredman

How so, Dave? I think that's an unfair comparison.

Is 'PC Friendly' headed to the graveyard? How is Nuon different from PC Friendly in a set-top environment? Look at all the cool features that player can do, you're telling me that those extra features stink (and we're not talking about the movie shutting off after 3 days here)???

DaveMorales

Lets look at it on a purely technical standpoint...

Without question the Nuon "system" and enhanced microprocessors are technology that will soon be eclipsed by the power and capability of Playstation 2, XBox, and the forthcoming Dolphin. As you well know the 3D aspects of the system and the potential as a cutting edge console have been well hyped by the Samsung and VMLabs of the world. Looking at the technical specifications readily available on the Nuon website, we see a glaring lack of critical, modern 3D rendering capabilities readily available in modern 3D processors such as the TNT, GeForce, PowerVR 2, and Emotion Engine. Tri-Linear Filtering, bump mapping, and most importantly, full screen anti-aliasing. This last feature is critical as you may or may not know to a smooth, “cinematic” look and feel to gaming, with gradual smooth edges and surface transitions. You will also make note that the overall spec sheet is lacking a bottom line number of textured or dual textured polygons per sec. It proudly proclaims the number of instructions per second (1.5 MIPS), but no numbers on raw pixel per second throughput or textured per second are provided. Thus, it is not too difficult to surmise that the overall, pure performance is well below an accelerator such as the TNT or PowerVR2, which is widely considered to be the minimum threshold for full-screen anti-aliasing.

Now, with Nuon you do get all those “effects” features of dynamic, interactive lighting and “fireworks”…. But is that really a treasured, enduring value-added feature. Added content, the “enhanced DVD”? Yes, the prospects are enticing but content partners are few. Sizable numbers of discs will be long in coming to market and it is safe to assume that it could be 16-18 months before a sizable library is on the market. By September of 2001 we have, or are on the threshold of, three major “set-top” or console introductions (Dolphin, PS2, X-Box) that few will argue outsell Nuon-enhanced devices probably on a 10 to 1 ratio. It was only three weeks ago that a financial analyst at Merrill Lynch released a “conservative” estimate that Sony will sell 79,000,000 Playstation2 units between March, 2000 and the end of 2003…. 79 million!

VMLabs is playing with the big boys now, and they are severely outgunned… they resides near the lowly Dreamcast as far as game and 3D performance…. They lack the marketing muscle of a Microsoft and Sony… Nuon is an unknown beyond the Home Theater-phile… All the cards are stacked against them.


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A free Tibet - Keep Hope alive...

jeredman

That's the problem, you CAN'T look at it from a purely technical standpoint. Great, you threw a lot of 3D buzzwords in there (heh, but left out an important one: voxels). For the hardcore gamers they don't care about the latest matrix algebra trick used to rotate a polygon 90 degrees, they care about GAMEPLAY...but that's not the point anyway...

Though guess what, VM Labs is NOT going after the video game market. They're going after the MASS market. People like Mom. Mom likes the TV show "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" Mom and Dad wouldn't mind playing that over a demi-tas, huh? Do they care about Tri-Linear anti-aliased cinematic Regis PowerVR2 Bass in Your face! No.

All I gotta say is, I hope at my next kegger I've got the Virtual Light Machine on the Sony Wega television in the background, and there isn't another DVD player on the market without a Nuon chip (or one in the forseeable future) that can do that.

If you see 2 players next to each other, identical features and price, but the Nuon device can overlay menus on top of a playing movie and show different camera angles simultaneously and play PC Friendly titles on the TV without a PC (yes, InterActual is a developer), which would you choose? Which does the mass market want (not the hobbyists who must have the latest and greatest 3D accelerator)?

Sorry folks!! I didn't mean for this folder to become a yea/nay Nuon debate - I just wanted to know who was going to be stocking these Samsung units first :-)

-Jeremy

Number of pixels pushed per second does NOT make an enjoyable video game system...and Nuon is not a video game system first and DVD player second (it's vice-versa)

cloud

Most of the major print media that have run stories on the NUON have said the same thing. The competition from the PS2 is going to be too much for it. Especially as the estimated price for the PS2 is $299 and the cheapest stand alone DVD players go for around $200. The NUON based DVD players in contrast are expected to go for $450-$500. The average person is not going to pay the extra dollars for the NUON based players just for a few extra fancy features. Also the PS2 can do pretty much everything the NUON DVD players can do and more, and will also have better games then those coming out for the NUON. Plus the PS2 has the backing not only of Sony but all the major game developers in the world. In light of this the NUON technology does not stand a chance. NUON is basically too little too late just like the 3DO.

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MY SHORT BUT SLOWLY EXPANDING DVD LIST

jeredman

Cloud,

Sorry to keep reiterating myself, but the Nuon is NOT AIMED at competition with the PSX2.

It's true, the "major print media" of the gaming magazines refuse to touch Nuon with a 10' pole anymore. Why's that? Because VM Labs has practically flipped them the bird and has stated time and time again they DON'T WANT TO BE compared to PSX2, et al.

To say that the cheapest Nuon DVD players are $400 is wrong. The Nuon chip replaces the standard decoding chip, with extra features, FOR THE SAME PRICE. While it is true the first couple Nuon players are mid-range players, there is no reason why we will not see an inexpensive Nuon player in the future.

Unfair comparison, again, to video game systems. Their target audience is NOT someone deciding "PSX2 or Nuon, Hmmmm..."

Think about HDCD - a format slipped into the industry under most people's eyes. 100% backwards compatible with older CD players...but for those who do have an HDCD player (like this Samsung N2000 does, another reason I want it ) there's an extra sweetness to the ears. Has that screwed up the format like DIVX has to DVD? No. Has that killed off all regular CD players? No. Just a little stamp at the bottom of the packaging that gives a little "extra" to those who can use it while not taking anything away from those who can't.

When'd I become an advocate?

THERE IS NO EXTRA DOLLARS FOR NUON FUNCTIONALITY! ACK ACK! :-) Nuon DVDs will work JUST FINE in other DVD players, this is not our much hated DIVX

DaveMorales

Rant and rave all you want but realize the core of the "modern" Nuon is a 2D/3D chip(s) first, with added capability in DVD decoding and limited processing capability for small client apps. The Nuon technology was for the longest time a key element in Motorola's effort to bring a console/set top box that had internet connectivity to market back in the day when it was widely believed that set tops would rule the 21st century living room. "Project X", powered by a close derivative of the Nuon 2D/3D architecture, chugged along from 1995-1998 but never came to fruition however it was clearly aimed at the next generation Playstations and WebTVs of the world.

Say all you will about how VMLabs "not wanting themselves compared to Sony", they are entitled to their opinions. However it is perfectly reasonable to lump Playstation 2, the soon to be announced Nintendo Dolphin, the XBox, Nuon DVD players, and next generation cable boxes in development by the Time Warners of the world together. All of these units, while not always sharing the same specific capabilities, do all transcend their traditional "niche" market segments. These units cross the lines over into new arenas such as media playback, internet activity, extended content, games and entertainment. A consumer 18 months from now looking at the market can see a Samsung Nuon DVD player and the Playstation 2 and make a fair cross comparison. Both units play DVD/CD/VCDs... both units have gaming capabilities... both units will be pushed and expanded down new, unannounced avenues such as potential web access and content on demand.... The comparison between the two units from a purely objective standpoint is fair and applicable.


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A free Tibet - Keep Hope alive...

jeredman

Dave,

Where are you getting this info that the Nuon spec has drastically changed from when it was originally referred to as "The project of which that cannot be spoken" to "Project-X" to "Nuon"??? Do you know something we all don't know? Nuon IS ONE AND THE SAME as "Project-X." I have the t-shirt. Motorola has added a bit with its Blackbird platform, but the chip is still the chip.

NO, you are FLAT OUT WRONG about the core of the Nuon being 2D/3D FIRST - The CORE of the Nuon is MPEG 2 decoding FIRST and ALWAYS HAS BEEN! Yes, it's true, years ago a few of us were mislead in thinking that it WOULD be a gaming platform. Why'd that happen? Lack of information...and we were wrong.

Dave, you're logic states that PSX2 and Dolphin will blow out of the water any and all standard DVD players (for instance SONY S7700). You contradict yourself stating that the 21st century was thought to be the "be all set-top" century (chuckle chuckle nudge nudge) then blatantly lead us to a future where all DVD customers will be choosing from standard DVD player A or PSX/Dolphin/XBox B - and imply that all those customers will choose B.

And maybe that will be the future in which even grandma and grandpa have a PSX...

While I'm implying that (/Conan O'Brian high voice) in the year 2000 customers will be choosing between standard DVD player A or similarly priced more featured DVD player B - and the separate gamers (who also want DVD playback like yourself) will be choosing between PSX2 or Dolphin or XBox or waiting for the next greatest thing (and all the pixel pushing mumbo jumbo was just to clear up the misleading nature of tech talk which means bupkis if the games aren't fun).

To over simplify things, how is Nuon much different from Dolby Noise Reduction B? Both squeeze a bit more functionality out of the platform (cassette for DNR, DVD for Nuon). Dolby actually IS NOT backwards compatible (but many poorly untrained ears still can't tell the difference). Your deck must have the Dolby circuitry or you can't play back a Dolby encoded tape properly, you can still use a Nuon DVD just fine (but without a fancy screen overlay) on any DVD player. Dolby is cross-vendor...and it has survived all this time with a cheaper competitor, DBX. If two equally priced cassette decks are sitting next to one another, will you choose the one with Dolby (and an on/off switch) or without? Hmm, in this light Nuon looks a bit more user friendly.

Now my IT background is going to come a bit more into play (btw, for all interested, the difference between IT and CompSci is that Computer Scientists look from the machine out from a mostly technical standpoint and Information Technologists look from the user in with a mostly psychological standpoint)...Nuon has the ability to DRASTICALLY increase the usability of a piece of consumer electronics, the DVD player. How many folks still can't program the time on their VCR? Will these same people be able to navigate through Raite menus? Tough to say...with the possible flexibility of Nuon, a much more visible on-screen user interface with feedback, constraints, and some obvious affordances could be in place whereas it was impossible with a traditional piece of consumer electronics. It's up to the hardware manufacturers to make it easy to get out of the box to that interface. No, I'm not saying that the first (or second or third) generation Nuon devices will do that.


**Disclosure, yes, it's true, I am a hardcore gamer who was simply looking for a store that had a date on paper of when they'd get that Samsung unit in stock (so I guess that pretty much says that "real" gamers WILL want a Nuon device AND a PSX2 AND a Dolphin etc, eh? ...But if I only had one it would be Nuon )...I have followed one of the greatest programmers in the world, Jeff Minter, update by update for years as he has been developing for this Nuon project. I did NOT want this to degrade to a simple video game discussion (which it shouldn't be anyway). -BUT a question for all of 'ya's video game types: What is THE hot hardcore gaming platform to own at this instant? Playstation 2, right?!? A prototype X-Box!! Guess again...


A: 1993 Atari Jaguar (ask me why ;-) )

Agent X

What jeredman said so far concerning NUON is pretty much on the money. I think a few other points need to be made as well:

To Cloud: How can you say that PS2 has better games that NUON? Have you played completed games on both platforms? Whether PS2 has better games than NUON is a purely matter of opinion. If you want to say that PS2 will likely have more games than NUON, then that's certainly the way it's looking, but you might want to withhold judgment on the game quality until both platforms are available.

Also, although Samsung's Extiva DVD-N2000 has an MSRP of $499, Raite's NUON-enhanced DVD player is supposed to hit at $299 within the month.

To DaveMorales: I think it's way too early to make any calls on Dolphin or X-Box outselling NUON 10 to 1. Dolphin and X-Box are paper tigers. Nintendo and Microsoft have rattled a lot of specs on paper, but have shown precious nothing so far. Not the hardware, and certainly not the games. Although NUON's most likely going to be behind these systems as far as raw horespower goes, it also will have a 1-2 year head start on the market over both of them. Whether NUON makes the most of that head start is another subject for debate, but the fact is that Dolphin and X-Box aren't going to be competing with anything anytime soon.

Moreover, as long as we've already resorted to entering total vaporware like Dolphin and X-Box into the horse race, then we might as well saddle up the second-generation NUON chipset, which is supposed to have 16 times the power of the original. This was mentioned in this article from the July 1998 issue of Wired magazine.

As far as PlayStation 2 is concerned, it should be a great gaming system, but its functionality as a movie player is seriously suspect. My friend ordered one from a video game importer, which posted a little blurb onthis page of their Web site. Apparently, if you aren't too busy trying to cope with the fact that Ridge Racer 5 can wipe the DVD movie playback software clean off your memory card, then you have to wrestle with the machine's tendency to reject a disc, skip on the sound, or overheat and freeze outright. Don't get me wrong, PS2 should have some good games, but it doesn't look like it'll be anyone's primary movie playing machine.

To jeredman: OK, why the Jaguar? My guess would be the long-awaited BattleSphere game. Any game that can sell for $1,575 on an eBay auction must have some merit, right?

cloud

Nuon is and always be compared to the PS2, Dolphin, X-Box and other similar devices. People in the audio/video and gaming industry who played finished games on both the PS2 and NUON based DVD players have consistantly said that the NUON is not nearly as impressive as the PS2. Sony has more experience in game development plus it also has the backing of all the major game developers. Game developers always go fo a proven technology and/or brand. It is going to be an uphill battle for VM Labs and it's DVD partners to get the same kind of backing, especially as the technology has been touted around for several years. I remember motorola showing NUON set top boxes 2 or 3 years ago at E3 and they did not get alot of attention or support. Sony and Playstation are by far much better known brands worldwide and with the success of the original Playstation stand a much better chance at sucess then VM Labs and it's DVD partners. It has also been stated that the NUON technology is not revolutionary like the PS2 technology and does not offer any significant benefits to the average consumer looking for a DVD player. Also with the possible exception of Raite's NUON DVD player the majority of NUON DVD players will be more expensive then standard DVD players and also most likely the PS2. NUON technology would have had a better chance of succeeding if it had come out 2 or 3 years ago.

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MY SHORT BUT SLOWLY EXPANDING DVD LIST

Agent X

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cloud:
Nuon is and always be compared to the PS2, Dolphin, X-Box and other similar devices. People in the audio/video and gaming industry who played finished games on both the PS2 and NUON based DVD players have consistantly said that the NUON is not nearly as impressive as the PS2. Sony has more experience in game development plus it also has the backing of all the major game developers. Game developers always go fo a proven technology and/or brand. It is going to be an uphill battle for VM Labs and it's DVD partners to get the same kind of backing, especially as the technology has been touted around for several years. I remember motorola showing NUON set top boxes 2 or 3 years ago at E3 and they did not get alot of attention or support. Sony and Playstation are by far much better known brands worldwide and with the success of the original Playstation stand a much better chance at sucess then VM Labs and it's DVD partners. It has also been stated that the NUON technology is not revolutionary like the PS2 technology and does not offer any significant benefits to the average consumer looking for a DVD player. Also with the possible exception of Raite's NUON DVD player the majority of NUON DVD players will be more expensive then standard DVD players and also most likely the PS2. NUON technology would have had a better chance of succeeding if it had come out 2 or 3 years ago.

<HR>

Could you quote some of those reports where people claim to have played finished games for NUON? I'm asking because, as far as I know, none of the NUON games are finished yet.

By the way, many of the reports I've read on NUON games said that they were very impressive. While the polygon power isn't quite as high as Dreamcast and PlayStation 2, it's still an order of magnitude greater than PlayStation or Nintendo 64--plus NUON also sports some special non-polygon graphical tricks and effects that polygon-oriented systems (including Dreamcast and PlayStation 2) have trouble with. I'd say that's a very good thing.

Tempest 3000 and Virtual Light Machine 2 are both highly impressive and feature effects that simply can't be done on Dreamcast (or at least not as easily as NUON). As long as programmers use creativity and produce good software that properly exploits NUON's unique strengths, then the platform is welcome in the market.

NUON is not revolutionary "like the PlayStation 2," but it is revolutionary in other ways.

M i c h a e l

All this talk of hardware specs is interesting,
but holds little meaning.

From a hardware standpoint, NUON is obsolete
from day one. Anyone who understands 3D
hardware knows this, and knows the PS2 will
be a significantly better platform.

The real meat, is 3rd party software support.
NUON will have a handful of games, and PS2
will roll into town with hundreds of
licensees, who will make thousands of games.

The software is equally as important, as the
hardware on which it will play.

NUON is a merely a small blip on the radar
screen.



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DVD Toolkit | Audio 101 | Stereo411 (The Ultimate Audio Resource!)

Agent X

Sorry, Michael, I don't think you fully understand. NUON will add a lot of extra functionality to the common garden-variety DVD player. Games are but one aspect. There's also all of the added features for DVD movies (go to the NUON Web site for more details), as well as the Virtual Light Machine for CD playback (if you've ever seen the Atari Jaguar version, you'd know this is a cool concept), Internet connectivity, and more. All of this on a chip that costs roughly the same as the typical plain-vanilla MPEG-2 decoder that current DVD players employ. I think it is very advantageous for DVD manufacturers to include the NUON chipset, for all of the benefits it provides at little to no extra cost.

Second, as far as 3D hardware goes (and I hate to repeat myself), while PS2 has the upper hand in polygon rendering, it looks like NUON has the edge in other non-polygon forms of 3D such as voxel rendering. VM Labs is hoping that creative programmers will tap these functions in order to bring about some new styles of games. I'm not saying this will happen, but at least the potential is there for the developers to branch out.

Third, you ignored the fact that the PS2 is (right now) a terrible DVD movie player, with all of its skipping, freezing, and disc rejection problems. That alone keeps the door open for the rest of the DVD movie player market, including NUON-enabled players.

As far as games go, sure, PS2 will probably have more of them, but that does not automatically mean they will all be better. Game quality is a matter of individual opinion and has nothing at all to do with the quantity of games or the platform they're on. See, I don't play systems--I play games. I plan on getting both a PS2 and a NUON-enabled DVD player--there's no rule that says that you're only allowed to buy one gaming system. There appears to be some terrific games coming out on both platforms. I think it's good to have healthy competition on the market, and I hope both platforms are successful.

Finally, think of the big picture. It isn't really just PS2 vs. NUON. It's PS2 and NUON and the threat that BOTH of them could potentially provide to all of the non-interactive DVD players like the ones out there now. The low cost of the NUON chipset combined with the great deal of functionality it adds for the end-user makes it very attractive. With that in mind, I would much rather buy a DVD player that has NUON technology over one that doesn't.

tor_greg

Now that Bedazzled has been announced as a theatrical NUON disc, I may consider upgrading my player. Hmm