The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
#1
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
... apparently started as far back as Iron Man 2, according to Rich Johnston at Bleeding Cool:
I don't think anyone could argue against the overall level of quality of Marvel Studios output up to and including Civil War. Even with their missteps in some the Iron Man and Thor sequels, and even parts of Age of Ultron, they've successfully made huge blockbusters out of the likes of Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. Without the input of Marvel Creative, I don't they'd ever have succeeded at anywhere near this level.
Curious to see what happens from this point on.
In a series of recent interviews, the Russo Brothers, directors of the recent Captain America movies, with Avengers to follow, believe that disagreements over plot points in their Civil War film may have led to the splits within Marvel.
These splits saw Kevin Feige take the movie-making side of the company, Marvel Studios, away from the rest of Marvel so that he reported directly to Disney’s Head Of Studios Alan Horn rather than Marvel CEO Isaac Perlmutter. This also meant that Captain America: Civil War is the last of the movies to have direct input from Marvel and the Marvel Creative Committee.
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The fact that it seems to have happened just as the final Marvel Studios film that the comic book side of the company had a say was released seems more like a planned hit. And one that Disney has approved of.
I’ve talked to a number of sources who disagree with the Russos’ specific take on the cause of the big split at Marvel. Rather than occurring during Civil War, its origins are with Iron Man 2. And what happened when Marvel executives freaked out after seeing an early cut of the movie. A lot of money had been spent, Marvel wasn’t willing to go back to the drawing board. But changes had to be made.
Do you remember the scenes with a drunken Tony Stark in the suit? Originally, they were far worse. Scenes which showed Stark falling down drunk, and being cruel, demeaning and frankly misogynist to Pepper Potts were cut, reedited and reshot in order keep the character from being totally irredeemable by the end of his first sequel. Though some of the drunkenness still exists in the final cut, in a more comedic fashion.
Kevin Feige encountered opposition by the rest of the Marvel team for a lack of judgement over how he allowed the creative team on the movie to treat Marvel’s up-and-coming franchise. And he was overruled.
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This rift was deepened when Feige seemed to start taking credit for the conceptualising of the Avengers movie, a series of Marvel films that would lead up to that coming together of the characters and the strategy behind that. But when that was being decided, by the likes of high-level executives Isaac Perlmutter, Alan Fine, Avi Arad, David Meisel and others, Kevin Feige wasn’t in the room.
Then in 2012 Alan Horn joined Disney as the Head Of Studios. In this role, he did nothing to smooth out the issues at Marvel, or bring the two slowly fracturing parts of Marvel together. Indeed, he seems to have fostered that split.
He had form in this regard. At Warner Bros, Alan Horn was the man who drove the stake through any remaining connection between DC Comics and WB Studios. Something he seemed he was choosing to do at Marvel as well.
It may be worth pointing out that Horn has never been the best friend to comics. It was his Warners VP meeting a decade ago that saw DC Vertigo forced to change their creator owned contracts to be more restrictive regarding media rights, something that saw Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison and others take their projects elsewhere, a creative brain drain that Vertigo never recovered from.
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So while Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige have been seen as Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, Alan Horn is seen as playing at Baron Zemo, pulling the strings of the Civil War, pitting Marvel against itself and putting them on a self-destructive path.
So even though the Russos see their movie as what caused the split, it was merely the last straw.
The TV shows, for ABC, Netflix and others, including Agent Carter, Jessica Jones and Agents Of SHIELD are still part of Marvel. Though they have lost alignment and co-ordination between the movies and the TV shows which would otherwise have co-promoted each other. You may have noted that this season’s Agents Of SHIELD had a scene where the cast talked about what was happening in Civil War – basically after the writers had got to see the almost-finished film.
But Doctor Strange in November will be the first Marvel Studios film without the input of Marvel. It will be the first true test of Marvel Studios-without-the-comics.
These splits saw Kevin Feige take the movie-making side of the company, Marvel Studios, away from the rest of Marvel so that he reported directly to Disney’s Head Of Studios Alan Horn rather than Marvel CEO Isaac Perlmutter. This also meant that Captain America: Civil War is the last of the movies to have direct input from Marvel and the Marvel Creative Committee.
.
.
.
.
The fact that it seems to have happened just as the final Marvel Studios film that the comic book side of the company had a say was released seems more like a planned hit. And one that Disney has approved of.
I’ve talked to a number of sources who disagree with the Russos’ specific take on the cause of the big split at Marvel. Rather than occurring during Civil War, its origins are with Iron Man 2. And what happened when Marvel executives freaked out after seeing an early cut of the movie. A lot of money had been spent, Marvel wasn’t willing to go back to the drawing board. But changes had to be made.
Do you remember the scenes with a drunken Tony Stark in the suit? Originally, they were far worse. Scenes which showed Stark falling down drunk, and being cruel, demeaning and frankly misogynist to Pepper Potts were cut, reedited and reshot in order keep the character from being totally irredeemable by the end of his first sequel. Though some of the drunkenness still exists in the final cut, in a more comedic fashion.
Kevin Feige encountered opposition by the rest of the Marvel team for a lack of judgement over how he allowed the creative team on the movie to treat Marvel’s up-and-coming franchise. And he was overruled.
.
.
.
.
This rift was deepened when Feige seemed to start taking credit for the conceptualising of the Avengers movie, a series of Marvel films that would lead up to that coming together of the characters and the strategy behind that. But when that was being decided, by the likes of high-level executives Isaac Perlmutter, Alan Fine, Avi Arad, David Meisel and others, Kevin Feige wasn’t in the room.
Then in 2012 Alan Horn joined Disney as the Head Of Studios. In this role, he did nothing to smooth out the issues at Marvel, or bring the two slowly fracturing parts of Marvel together. Indeed, he seems to have fostered that split.
He had form in this regard. At Warner Bros, Alan Horn was the man who drove the stake through any remaining connection between DC Comics and WB Studios. Something he seemed he was choosing to do at Marvel as well.
It may be worth pointing out that Horn has never been the best friend to comics. It was his Warners VP meeting a decade ago that saw DC Vertigo forced to change their creator owned contracts to be more restrictive regarding media rights, something that saw Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison and others take their projects elsewhere, a creative brain drain that Vertigo never recovered from.
.
.
.
.
So while Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige have been seen as Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, Alan Horn is seen as playing at Baron Zemo, pulling the strings of the Civil War, pitting Marvel against itself and putting them on a self-destructive path.
So even though the Russos see their movie as what caused the split, it was merely the last straw.
The TV shows, for ABC, Netflix and others, including Agent Carter, Jessica Jones and Agents Of SHIELD are still part of Marvel. Though they have lost alignment and co-ordination between the movies and the TV shows which would otherwise have co-promoted each other. You may have noted that this season’s Agents Of SHIELD had a scene where the cast talked about what was happening in Civil War – basically after the writers had got to see the almost-finished film.
But Doctor Strange in November will be the first Marvel Studios film without the input of Marvel. It will be the first true test of Marvel Studios-without-the-comics.
Curious to see what happens from this point on.
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Hasn't this been known for quite a while? I've been under the impression that Feig is basically responsible for the MCU's success so I don't see why the split between the comic division and the film division would cause issues.
#6
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
If Johnston is to be believed... and he's generally been quite reliable... then Marvel Creative was, if not more responsible for the films' success than anyone else, certainly a major component therein.
#7
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
This always happens in Hollywood. Movie executives spending hundreds of millions will never, ever trust comic book people. The first moment they can be cut out of the loop, they are done.
Always ask yourself whom benefits from the leak of a story like this one. It's obviously spin control.
Always ask yourself whom benefits from the leak of a story like this one. It's obviously spin control.
#8
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
I'm sure a number of people are responsible for the success of the films but I think that Feig has been a key component and from what I remember reading about the split from the comics division it sounded like the CEO of Marvel was kind of a pain in the ass and hard to work with which is why he asked to be able to report directly to Disney. I'm sure there are things we aren't privy to but I would guess that him being on board as the main producer of all the films to date will mean that things will be okay for the foreseeable future. He's obviously got a lot of investment in the Marvel brand despite not working on the comic side of things and I'm inclined to believe he knows what he's doing at this point.
#9
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Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Yeah. Feige seems to know wtf he is doing. Add in... he's a big fan of the material. Not like some regular producer who loves that he has control of a property but the guy is a legit comic book guy.
#10
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
I think that's the thing though... sounds like Feige took the bulk of the praise but this article is saying it wasn't really just him.
#11
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Well, the Marvel Comics side just made Captain America a long time Hydra plant, and that's just the latest in a long line of stupid, supposed to be shocking, plot twists that totally contradict the history of the given titles. Marvel Comics has been mismanaged from a storytelling point of view for at least 22 years...
So I'm kind of glad that the Comics side of the business has no input into the movies. (And I know that the actual comics side and the TV side are not related to each other, and the actual comics people had little input into the Movies anyway, but keeping that side of the business away from the movies is a good thing - anyone who approves these ludicrous plotlines should be shot by the Punisher.)
So I'm kind of glad that the Comics side of the business has no input into the movies. (And I know that the actual comics side and the TV side are not related to each other, and the actual comics people had little input into the Movies anyway, but keeping that side of the business away from the movies is a good thing - anyone who approves these ludicrous plotlines should be shot by the Punisher.)
#13
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#14
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Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Rich did a follow up today. For some reason, I never put 2 & 2 together - With Marvel Studios breaking away from Marvel Comics, Marvel no longer owns the film rights for a majority of their characters. Fox has X-Men and the Fantastic Four, Sony has Spider-Man, Universal (kinda) has Hulk and Sub-Mariner and Marvel Studios/Disney has the Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Thor, etc).
Would be very interesting if Disney ever decided to drop Marvel Comics one day while still retaining Marvel Studios.
Bleeding Cool
Would be very interesting if Disney ever decided to drop Marvel Comics one day while still retaining Marvel Studios.
What’s The Worst That Could Happen Over Marvel Studios/Comics Split?
Yesterday, Bleeding Cool looked at the causes and timeline of the split between Marvel and Marvel Studios at Disney. We tried to ascertain who was really behind the changes at the company, that saw Kevin Feige heading up Marvel Studios, reporting to Disney rather than to the rest of Marvel, and a split between the two sides of the company, as deep as that between Marvel Comics and DC Comics.
But, we’ll still get the comics, the films, the TV shows… so what’s the worst that could happen?
Kevin Feige, a big time fan of the comics, keeper of plenty of fanboy knowledge, and part of the Marvel team that brought many of the successful movies to fruition – won’t be there forever.
Could be a year, could be ten. At some point he will step down or move on.
But Marvel Studios move away from Marvel and towards Disney has guaranteed that when he does move on, that Marvel Studios will continue to be run by Disney, and not by Marvel. The very thing they promised, that Marvel wouldn’t lose control of its characters when Disney bought them out, will be gone.
It was what fans feared back then. It was the thing Joe Quesada said wouldn’t happen.
And now it has.
This was what Isaac Perlmutter was trying to prevent. Kevin Feige, with Alan Horn at Disney, has put Marvel’s autonomy as a comic book company in peril.
Yesterday, Bleeding Cool looked at the causes and timeline of the split between Marvel and Marvel Studios at Disney. We tried to ascertain who was really behind the changes at the company, that saw Kevin Feige heading up Marvel Studios, reporting to Disney rather than to the rest of Marvel, and a split between the two sides of the company, as deep as that between Marvel Comics and DC Comics.
But, we’ll still get the comics, the films, the TV shows… so what’s the worst that could happen?
Kevin Feige, a big time fan of the comics, keeper of plenty of fanboy knowledge, and part of the Marvel team that brought many of the successful movies to fruition – won’t be there forever.
Could be a year, could be ten. At some point he will step down or move on.
But Marvel Studios move away from Marvel and towards Disney has guaranteed that when he does move on, that Marvel Studios will continue to be run by Disney, and not by Marvel. The very thing they promised, that Marvel wouldn’t lose control of its characters when Disney bought them out, will be gone.
It was what fans feared back then. It was the thing Joe Quesada said wouldn’t happen.
And now it has.
This was what Isaac Perlmutter was trying to prevent. Kevin Feige, with Alan Horn at Disney, has put Marvel’s autonomy as a comic book company in peril.
#15
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
When Disney bought Marvel Comics, the idea that they could one day look at the comic books and say "Why are we still publishing these things?"
Disney couldn't care less about producing content; they seem content to license their trademarks out to anyone offering some cash. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have been so ingrained into our collective consciousness that they don't need to produce new stories with them. From a corporate perspective, there's little need to keep churning out comic books month-after-month and paying writers and artists when you can just slap Spider-Man onto a kiddie pool and collect a check.
As long as the movies keep making a billion dollars they'll still make those, but I suspect that the actual comic books don't have the kind of margins that impress the suits.
Disney couldn't care less about producing content; they seem content to license their trademarks out to anyone offering some cash. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have been so ingrained into our collective consciousness that they don't need to produce new stories with them. From a corporate perspective, there's little need to keep churning out comic books month-after-month and paying writers and artists when you can just slap Spider-Man onto a kiddie pool and collect a check.
As long as the movies keep making a billion dollars they'll still make those, but I suspect that the actual comic books don't have the kind of margins that impress the suits.
#16
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
When Disney bought Marvel Comics, the idea that they could one day look at the comic books and say "Why are we still publishing these things?"
Disney couldn't care less about producing content; they seem content to license their trademarks out to anyone offering some cash. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have been so ingrained into our collective consciousness that they don't need to produce new stories with them. From a corporate perspective, there's little need to keep churning out comic books month-after-month and paying writers and artists when you can just slap Spider-Man onto a kiddie pool and collect a check.
As long as the movies keep making a billion dollars they'll still make those, but I suspect that the actual comic books don't have the kind of margins that impress the suits.
Disney couldn't care less about producing content; they seem content to license their trademarks out to anyone offering some cash. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have been so ingrained into our collective consciousness that they don't need to produce new stories with them. From a corporate perspective, there's little need to keep churning out comic books month-after-month and paying writers and artists when you can just slap Spider-Man onto a kiddie pool and collect a check.
As long as the movies keep making a billion dollars they'll still make those, but I suspect that the actual comic books don't have the kind of margins that impress the suits.
#18
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
There is no way Disney would shuttle Marvel comics. The fan backlash would be venomous and would even dent movie totals. Does Disney care about Marvel Comics? No, it's a rounding error on the Mouse's balance sheets. The company was purchased for its ownership of Marvel intellectual property, meant to be exploited for branding aimed at boys aged 12-18.
Many suspect that Marvel and DC in the future will be run as ongoing vanity presses by their corporate owners meant to keep the characters in circulation and test out new ideas.
WB has shown an increasing willingness to adapt pretty much any successful DC book for its DTV movies like The Killing Joke.
Many suspect that Marvel and DC in the future will be run as ongoing vanity presses by their corporate owners meant to keep the characters in circulation and test out new ideas.
WB has shown an increasing willingness to adapt pretty much any successful DC book for its DTV movies like The Killing Joke.
#20
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Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
The Disney characters have been farmed out in various directions for a while now. Not sure about the current status.
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Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Disney had its own comics publishing a decade or so back, but they seemed to abandon it in favor of licensing them out. Really, all the best Disney comics (Barks, Rosa) were done by companies that weren't Disney.
#24
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
All of Bleeding Cool's reporting has come from the comics side so this report doesn't surprise me and I wouldn't put much into it.
#25
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The rift between Marvel Studios and Marvel Comics...
Yeah Bleeding Cool is the TMZ of comic news. I feel dirty just visiting the site occasionally.