Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new survey
01-31-16, 06:36 PM
#1
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new survey
Those sexist Disney movies.
Those princess movies are bad role models for little girls
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/...-say-linguists
Those princess movies are bad role models for little girls
Despite having key roles in a number of today's Disney princess films, new research indicates women characters speak less than their male counterparts.
According to the Washington Post, linguists Carmen Fought and Karen Eisenhauer analyzed all of the dialogue from the Disney princess franchise and discovered men have more speaking lines.
The report reveals that in The Little Mermaid, men speak 68 percent of the time. Additionally, men speak 71 percent of the time in Beauty and the Beast, 76 percent in Pocahontas, 77 percent in Mulan and a whopping 90 percent in Aladdin. Believe it or not, men even have more lines of dialogue in Frozen, speaking 59 percent of the time in a film centered around two princesses.
According to the Washington Post, linguists Carmen Fought and Karen Eisenhauer analyzed all of the dialogue from the Disney princess franchise and discovered men have more speaking lines.
The report reveals that in The Little Mermaid, men speak 68 percent of the time. Additionally, men speak 71 percent of the time in Beauty and the Beast, 76 percent in Pocahontas, 77 percent in Mulan and a whopping 90 percent in Aladdin. Believe it or not, men even have more lines of dialogue in Frozen, speaking 59 percent of the time in a film centered around two princesses.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/...-say-linguists
01-31-16, 07:39 PM
#2
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Seems like clickbait. At first glance it seems like a shock, but all the supporting cast members are male so it kinda makes sense.
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
Where does Sleeping Beauty rank? The cast is 90% female with Aurora, the fairy Godmothers and Maleficent.
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
Where does Sleeping Beauty rank? The cast is 90% female with Aurora, the fairy Godmothers and Maleficent.
01-31-16, 07:48 PM
#3
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Villain characters tend to be male as well. We surely need to pass a law giving more dialogue to Disney princesses...bringing balance to the Force. I recommend bypassing Congress and immediately issuing a Presidential Executive Order to correct this miscarriage of justice.
01-31-16, 07:52 PM
#4
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Drama is driven by conflict and it's harder to come up with story lines for princesses who usually just get pampered. Maybe if they pick more fights with Uber drivers you could write some interesting scripts for them.
01-31-16, 11:18 PM
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Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Hard to write dialogue for a sleeping beauty.
02-01-16, 01:12 AM
#8
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Seems like clickbait. At first glance it seems like a shock, but all the supporting cast members are male so it kinda makes sense.
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
Where does Sleeping Beauty rank? The cast is 90% female with Aurora, the fairy Godmothers and Maleficent.
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
Where does Sleeping Beauty rank? The cast is 90% female with Aurora, the fairy Godmothers and Maleficent.
02-01-16, 09:36 AM
#9
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Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Disney films tend to be more about the antics of the supporting cast while the titular hero has less to do and say by virtue of their role as hero. Tarzan, Simba, and Quasimodo probably speak the least in their respective films as well. Disney has always relied on funny supporting characters to do the heavy lifting.
02-01-16, 10:28 AM
#10
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
They are addressing "speaking lines" but what about songs? They are part of the story and the women sing a lot more than the guys.
02-01-16, 10:32 AM
#11
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
The lead character in most Disney movies is supposed to be on an adventure, so obviously that would primarily involve other characters talking to her.
02-01-16, 11:00 AM
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
This probably has a lot to do with their numbers. In Disney musicals the songs are basically more dialogue. That and most villain/supporting characters are male.
02-01-16, 12:28 PM
#15
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
It teaches girls a valuable lesson. If they're hot they do not have to talk. Let the man do all the talking.
02-01-16, 12:43 PM
#16
DVD Talk Legend
02-01-16, 12:44 PM
#17
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02-01-16, 12:48 PM
#18
DVD Talk Legend
02-01-16, 05:36 PM
#19
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Seems like clickbait. At first glance it seems like a shock, but all the supporting cast members are male so it kinda makes sense.
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
First, I don't consider Jasmine the lead of a film called 'Aladdin.' Second, The Little Mermaid is a strange one to put at the top of the list. She's fucking mute for 1/3rd of the film. Then the supporting cast, Sebastian, Flounder, Scuttle, Triton, Eric, Eric's butler, the Chef... etc are all male. Ursula is the only other supporting character that is female.
It's the same for the other flicks. Cast for Beauty & the Beast? Beast, Gaston, Maurice, Lumiere, Cogsworth, Lefou and Chip. The only other females are Ms. Potts and the feather duster.
Also sidekicks overwhelmingly tend to be male. Olaf, Jaq & Gus, Dwarfs, Mushu, etc.
A more accurate comparison, IMO, would be the female lead to the male lead. i.e. does Flynn Rider have more lines than Rapunzel? John Smith and Pocahontas?
Tangled and Brave are noted as exceptions and both of those movies have "mother" characters for their female protagonists.
Where does Sleeping Beauty rank? The cast is 90% female with Aurora, the fairy Godmothers and Maleficent.
A generational gap divides Disney’s princess franchise. After 1959’s “Sleeping Beauty,” it took 30 years for the studio to produce another animated princess feature.
Spoiler:
In the 30 year gap, Disney died and lots of societal things happen. Why did they used to get so much of the dialogue? Even when the movie is about them (Mulan, Princess and the Frog, Pocahontas) they get short-changed. That's bizarre.
“There's one isolated princess trying to get someone to marry her, but there are no women doing any other things,” Fought says. “There are no women leading the townspeople to go against the Beast, no women bonding in the tavern together singing drinking songs, women giving each other directions, or women inventing things. Everybody who’s doing anything else, other than finding a husband in the movie, pretty much, is a male.”
The older princess films had fewer speaking roles in total, and more gender balance. But “The Little Mermaid” pioneered a new style of Disney movie, modeled after Broadway musicals, with their large ensemble casts. As the number of characters grew, so did the gender inequality.
"My best guess is that it's carelessness, because we're so trained to think that male is the norm,” says Eisenhauer, a graduate student at North Carolina State. “So when you want to add a shopkeeper, that shopkeeper is a man. Or you add a guard, that guard is a man. I think that's just really ingrained in our culture.”
The older princess films had fewer speaking roles in total, and more gender balance. But “The Little Mermaid” pioneered a new style of Disney movie, modeled after Broadway musicals, with their large ensemble casts. As the number of characters grew, so did the gender inequality.
"My best guess is that it's carelessness, because we're so trained to think that male is the norm,” says Eisenhauer, a graduate student at North Carolina State. “So when you want to add a shopkeeper, that shopkeeper is a man. Or you add a guard, that guard is a man. I think that's just really ingrained in our culture.”
02-01-16, 05:52 PM
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Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
"My best guess is that it's carelessness, because we're so trained to think that male is the norm,” says Eisenhauer, a graduate student at North Carolina State. “So when you want to add a shopkeeper, that shopkeeper is a man. Or you add a guard, that guard is a man. I think that's just really ingrained in our culture.”
2)Pocahontas is a quiet character in every version of the story.
3)As I said before the heroine has to maintain a certain dignity, so its the supporting characters that do the heavy lifting in regards to comic action, story exposition, action that helps characterize the virtues of the heroine, etc.
4)More times than not female characters are not given any female friends because, being heroines, they must stand out from the norm. The unique virtues of Ariel or Belle would be less apparent if they were one of many females who lived under the sea and collected human tchotchkies or were one of a cadre of women who dreamed of leaving their provincial town. The heroine must be alone. Early versions of Star Wars showed Luke interacting with several peers and friends...they were all cut out.
5)Disney animators have always shown uncertainty when it comes to animating full sized human characters. That's why Dwarfs and mice and Good-fairys hog up all the screen time in films like Snow White, Cinderella, and Sleeping Beauty. Despite improving their technique over the years the animators still minimize human characters' screen time by either turning them into llamas or frogs or drawing them in an extremely caricatured manner (like Lilo). So taking Princess and the Frog as an example, not only does the female not talk much (for reasons mentioned above), but the amount of time speaking in human form is even less. Is this due to Disney viewing woman as subhuman? Of course not, it's a byproduct of their animation techniques. As is most of the other observed phenomenon in this study.
Final verdict: I despise when people who don't know anything about cinema aim their sights on the field. Stick to women's studies and sociology, you know nothing about cinema.
Last edited by Mabuse; 02-01-16 at 06:20 PM.
02-01-16, 05:53 PM
#21
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
It really isn't weird. Disney movies usually run in a compact 90 minute or less runtime and are about Princesses seeking their Prince or some variation there of.
It may be old fashioned, but it sells. Until they have some lesbian princess action going. Or one where the princess decides she don't need no man.
It may be old fashioned, but it sells. Until they have some lesbian princess action going. Or one where the princess decides she don't need no man.
02-01-16, 06:05 PM
#22
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
It really isn't weird. Disney movies usually run in a compact 90 minute or less runtime and are about Princesses seeking their Prince or some variation there of.
It may be old fashioned, but it sells. Until they have some lesbian princess action going. Or one where the princess decides she don't need no man.
It may be old fashioned, but it sells. Until they have some lesbian princess action going. Or one where the princess decides she don't need no man.
"Lesbians" are not the only way to have a story with a princess and other female characters. There is no reason that one of Ariel's animal friends couldn't have been female. Or two. Or all three of them.
The movies are written by people who seem to be choosing to put men in as characters more often than women. I don't think anyone would look at Beauty and the Beast and say NO WAY THAT WOMAN WOULD BE DRINKING IN A BAR FUCK THIS MOVIE. Especially when that entire film is about marrying your abuser
02-01-16, 06:25 PM
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Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Except when Frozen comes out, stars two women, isn't about seeking their prince and blows all the doors off at the box office.
"Lesbians" are not the only way to have a story with a princess and other female characters. There is no reason that one of Ariel's animal friends couldn't have been female. Or two. Or all three of them.
The movies are written by people who seem to be choosing to put men in as characters more often than women. I don't think anyone would look at Beauty and the Beast [/B]and say NO WAY THAT WOMAN WOULD BE DRINKING IN A BAR FUCK THIS MOVIE. Especially when that entire film is about marrying your abuser
"Lesbians" are not the only way to have a story with a princess and other female characters. There is no reason that one of Ariel's animal friends couldn't have been female. Or two. Or all three of them.
The movies are written by people who seem to be choosing to put men in as characters more often than women. I don't think anyone would look at Beauty and the Beast [/B]and say NO WAY THAT WOMAN WOULD BE DRINKING IN A BAR FUCK THIS MOVIE. Especially when that entire film is about marrying your abuser
Let's look at Little Mermaid a little further regarding your assertion they could have been female:
Scuttle - is literally a bird brained idiot. Would feminists really prefer the biggest idiot in the story be a female?
Sebastian - is a proxy of her father and represents the dominant patriarchy. Would it really make one bit of sense for the that character to be female?
Flounder - this childlike character could indeed be a female, but again I believe that undermines the singular uniqueness of the heroine.
Last edited by Mabuse; 02-01-16 at 06:32 PM.
02-01-16, 06:28 PM
#24
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Frozen actually kind of defied the stereotype, with the "love at first site" prince inexplicably turning out to be evil, and the handsome schlub actually not being all that necessary to save her, not to mention Elsa not even having a suitor. I would think, in that movie, Olaf heavily skews the dialogue, as well as Anna basically being in a harem situation with two guys vying for her attention.
I don't know if Brave is considered a princess movie, but I wonder what the dialogue difference is there. I know Lilo and Stitch is not, but that also seems to skew female. The main thing I never really realized is that none of these princesses has any (human or similar) girlfriends (kinda like how very few of them have two living parents).
I don't know if Brave is considered a princess movie, but I wonder what the dialogue difference is there. I know Lilo and Stitch is not, but that also seems to skew female. The main thing I never really realized is that none of these princesses has any (human or similar) girlfriends (kinda like how very few of them have two living parents).
02-01-16, 06:36 PM
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Re: Modern Disney Princesses have less dialogue compared male counterparts in new sur
Frozen actually kind of defied the stereotype, with the "love at first site" prince inexplicably turning out to be evil, and the handsome schlub actually not being all that necessary to save her, not to mention Elsa not even having a suitor. I would think, in that movie, Olaf heavily skews the dialogue, as well as Anna basically being in a harem situation with two guys vying for her attention.
I don't know if Brave is considered a princess movie, but I wonder what the dialogue difference is there. I know Lilo and Stitch is not, but that also seems to skew female. The main thing I never really realized is that none of these princesses has any (human or similar) girlfriends (kinda like how very few of them have two living parents).
I don't know if Brave is considered a princess movie, but I wonder what the dialogue difference is there. I know Lilo and Stitch is not, but that also seems to skew female. The main thing I never really realized is that none of these princesses has any (human or similar) girlfriends (kinda like how very few of them have two living parents).