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fans who can't accept changes

Old 08-24-13, 03:59 AM
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fans who can't accept changes

Are any of you like that, when some serious shake ups happen with mainstream superhero comics that makes you stop reading or pretend something never happened?
Old 08-24-13, 05:30 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I'm still living in the early Bronze Age. Everything written since Crisis (there's only been one real Crisis) is an imaginary story. I can enjoy the new stuff on those terms.
Old 08-25-13, 03:12 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Thought the same way as you folks until I read Old Man Logan and Winter Soldier.Them's some good reading.
Old 08-25-13, 05:06 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

There can be times where I get stuck on something I love from the past and don't embrace a change right away but a lot of times I eventually adjust and live with it.
Old 08-25-13, 08:03 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Still can't get use to that hideous 52 universe Superman costume.
Old 08-26-13, 12:47 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by ddrknghtrtns
Still can't get use to that hideous 52 universe Superman costume.
I'll never accept the new costume, either. There are certain things which should be held sacrosanct and the classic design of Superman's costume was one of them.

It's very possible the superhero comic book industry never becomes a viable market without Superman's original costume. There were good reasons why DC didn't tamper with it for decades once it stabilized in design around the 1950's.

I still think this is a new COKE situation and that somewhere down the line it will make a glorious comeback.
Old 08-26-13, 01:10 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I've been reading comics since 1970. At this point, I don't care too much about "little" continuity and I tend to follow creators more than characters.

I stopped reading DC with the new 52. Not because they changed things, but how they changed things and why. I stopped reading the Big 2 during the early 90's and the corporate mandate to recapture that era meant that I would be dropping DC again.

If DC had the balls to do with the new 52 what they did back in the 50's - create a whole new universe where only the Big Three (or Four) remain unchanged - I would have been very happy. Can you imaging going into the comic shop every week and picking up Sensation #1 or Adventure #1 to see how some of your favorite creators have reinvented old favorite characters?

But instead, we got Zero Hour 2.0. Pass.
Old 08-26-13, 01:15 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
I'll never accept the new costume, either. There are certain things which should be held sacrosanct and the classic design of Superman's costume was one of them.
See, this is what I meant by "how they changed things and why". If you think Superman's costume is stupid because "his underwear is on the outside", then you shouldn't be working in superhero comics. And don't get me started on the fact that that the most invulnerable DC hero suddenly needs armor.

I still think this is a new COKE situation and that somewhere down the line it will make a glorious comeback.
Yeah, once sales slip down to pre-52 levels they'll make a big deal of the comeback. All new #1's, big crossover event, nothing will ever be the same again, death of "beloved" characters, etc. etc. yawn.
Old 08-26-13, 03:02 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

When they added Wolverine to the X-Men it all went downhill so fast.



















Spoiler:
Old 08-26-13, 03:18 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

For me, I stopped reading Spider-man when it was revealed that he was a clone. I picked it up again when JMS and Romita Jr were the creative team. But I stopped for good when they wished away the marriage and reset everything.

I'm not the same with DC since they have always been messing with continuity. But to me, Jason is still dead.
Old 08-26-13, 04:12 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I'll admit, despite the premise Winter Soldier, heck, even Death of Cap was good. I don't mind so much when a creator takes a character and goes on a good, long arc with them, even if it means reestablishing or changing some of their history. I loved Annihilation, for instance, and the whole reinvention of the cosmic Marvel Universe. I was a huge fan of Nova and the older Guardians of the Galaxy, and when they re-did their origins and replaced the entire team, I was fine with it.

For a long time, the JSA post Crisis were (literally) in limbo... until Robinson did that Golden Age elseworlds, and Johns and Goyer redid them in their version of the JSA. They added new characters, they took up other characters that had taken up Golden Age mantles, and they made it work.

I'm also a big fan of the Teen Titans. The new 52 did to the Titans what Crisis (eventually) did to the Legion, except it was in one fell swoop. Cyborg got promoted, but everyone else is either part of the bat family, never existed, or is in some poor incarnation... why? Because legacy characters made their core characters too old. And the poor JSA is now a fledgling, inexperienced team in an alternate universe (last I checked).

Let's be honest the whole reason some of us collect certain comics is because we like the characters... that's what makes us stick with the book through creator changes, good times and bad, etc. And DC just went and gave existing fans a way to take a break from collecting. It doesn't matter to them because they were replaced by new fans, but so it goes. I'm not completely against picking up a comic if it's good, and I've been tempted by some titles (like Batgirl) but the overall editorial execution at DC has left me cold.
Old 08-26-13, 05:29 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
I still think this is a new COKE situation and that somewhere down the line it will make a glorious comeback.


Yeah, and Nintendo is going out of the hardware business. (Something else people have been claiming forever.)

I don't think people really comprehend how dismal DC's sales were before the New 52. The board of directors for all intents and purposes gave the comic division the mandate to increase sales by any means necessary or else they would basically be shut down. There is no way they are going to go back to that, knowing just how bad it actually sold.

If New 52 sales decline too much, then yes of course there will be gimmicks to increase sales. Hello... its basically the whole point of Villains Month (i.e. Gimmick Month).

But they will not go back to the pre-Flashpoint universe. There is no precedent for it. The Golden Age never returned after the Silver Age "reboot." The Silver Age never returned after the COIE reboot. The COIE universe is never returning either. Sure, future writers may reference it (like Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns have done with the Silver Age) but its never actually coming back. Face it. Its gone.

Don't take me the wrong way. The COIE universe is the universe I grew up reading as a kid. Its my favorite era of comics, but I'm not in denial about it ever coming back.

Basically, we are the old geezers sitting on the porch shaking our canes at the new kids. Our "world" is gone. The New 52 is the world for the new kids, and it will be what they have nostalgia for in 20 years when DC reboots again. Face it. We're just getting old.
Old 08-26-13, 06:59 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

But the pre-Crisis universe did start to blend in with post Crisis. They removed the whole "Superman is the only Kryptonian" thing that was so essential to Byrne's reboot, and essentially gave him his silver age origin again. Superman as a boy was part of the Legion of Superheroes again (this after going through two alternate Legions). People started retconning things like Hippolyta becoming the Golden Age Wonder Woman and Supergirl being part of the Legion. The "Infinite Earths" came back, to an extent. Heck, despite resisting for a long time, Barry Allen came back. Why? Because fans and creators who grew up pre-Crisis wanted it that way.

If you look at Infinite Crisis, it basically reversed everything that COIE did. It destroyed the peace that Kal'L, Superboy Prime, Alexander Luthor and Lois Lane had at the end of Crisis, and reintroduced 52 different universes. And the Superboy Prime retcon wall punch became a running joke.

I'm not saying that that's where they're going with this, but this is all work for hire, as soon as someone else is in charge who wants it back the way it was, it'll happen (that's still my hope for Spider-man). That's really why there's no change, why people come back from the dead all the time in increasingly convoluted ways, etc.
Old 08-26-13, 07:12 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Well yeah, but Infinite Crisis was 20 years after COIE, and even then it didn't fully revert to the pre-COIE world. It just brought back a few things.

People act like the New 52 isn't going to last more than a couple years, and then it will die, and the pre-Flashpoint world will come back.

That isn't going to happen.
Old 08-26-13, 08:56 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I checked out of Marvel when it turned into "Bendis/Millar change the status quo every year in a BIG! EVENT! that sucks, and it never REALLY sticks anyhow", and New 52 finally turned me off of DC. Just not for me anymore. And I've been reading comics regularly since 1983 or so.

Not so much that I can't accept change. Just that there is no change but the illusion of change. It's always the same old shit.
Old 08-26-13, 10:49 PM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I agree. I was an avid superhero reader in the '90s. Then I realized how little of it made any real significant change. I tried with the New 52 but I found that those got tedious really quickly as well. I still read a few of the titles, but there are no real stakes because of how easy it is to just retcon anything.

That's why I was excited about the Ultimate line, because supposedly it was going to be a universe where any changes stuck. Well, that only lasted about a year or so.
Old 08-27-13, 02:48 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by taffer


But they will not go back to the pre-Flashpoint universe. There is no precedent for it. The Golden Age never returned after the Silver Age "reboot." The Silver Age never returned after the COIE reboot. The COIE universe is never returning either.
What are you talking about? All the stuff that Silver Age stuff from beforoe COIE ended up coming back. COIE erased Superboy, his history with the LOSH, killed off Barry Allen and replaced him with Wally West, had Wonder Woman NOT be a founding member of the Justice League, erased Kara Zor-El Supergirl, and Powergirl was no longer Kryptonian but an Atlantean.

Then in the mid to late 2000s, they brought back Kara Zora-El, restored Power Girls original origin, brought back the idea of Superboy in Smallville and his interactions with the LOSH as well as the rest of the Silver Age mythos, brought back Barry Allen as The Flash...and the list goes on. All before THE NEW 52.

If it's successful THE NEW 52 will stay. When the sales get bad again, and they will, another multiverse crisis will occur, maybe Pandora will play a part, and the "original" time line will get restored again.

Last edited by brayzie; 08-27-13 at 02:55 AM.
Old 08-27-13, 04:00 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by taffer
Well yeah, but Infinite Crisis was 20 years after COIE, and even then it didn't fully revert to the pre-COIE world. It just brought back a few things.
By the time Infinite Crisis was through, pretty much the entire pre-COIE status quo was established. And given today's "Big Annual Event That Changes EVERYTHING" climate, I doubt very much it will take anything near 20 years this time around.

And remember, the new 52 wasn't a complete reboot. Everything Batman and GL related from the pre-52 still happened, only over a long weekend or something instead of a decade or more. The "have your cake and eat it, too" angle is one of the things that killed my interest in the project.
Old 08-27-13, 04:09 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Generally speaking, I'm not against minor changes to characters or situations; its the major ones that tick me off. One example of this was when Kara Zor-El was killed off during the "Infinite Crisis" arc, only to be replaced by some shape-shifting impostor. Another would be when the Phoenix Force was changed from a cosmic entity to a severe mental disorder (though I still like "X3" in some places).
Old 08-27-13, 06:33 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

I think my biggest problem with the New 52 change was that it was poorly explained. By that I mean every title was rebooted except, what,2? Bat titles and GL titles. I guess because they were the top writers pet projects and their storylines continued through the whole "event". Continuity isnt everything, a good story is a good story. BUT its hard to wrap ones mind around the concept that everything that has happened in the GL and Bat books occurred in this amorphous 5 year span.
Old 08-27-13, 07:11 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by brayzie
What are you talking about? All the stuff that Silver Age stuff from beforoe COIE ended up coming back. COIE erased Superboy, his history with the LOSH, killed off Barry Allen and replaced him with Wally West, had Wonder Woman NOT be a founding member of the Justice League, erased Kara Zor-El Supergirl, and Powergirl was no longer Kryptonian but an Atlantean.

Then in the mid to late 2000s, they brought back Kara Zora-El, restored Power Girls original origin, brought back the idea of Superboy in Smallville and his interactions with the LOSH as well as the rest of the Silver Age mythos, brought back Barry Allen as The Flash...and the list goes on. All before THE NEW 52.

If it's successful THE NEW 52 will stay. When the sales get bad again, and they will, another multiverse crisis will occur, maybe Pandora will play a part, and the "original" time line will get restored again.
Yes, some Silver Age elements came back, but certainly not everything. Did Batman revert to Silver Age Adam West cheese? Did Dick Grayson go back to being Robin? No and no. Jason Todd did get his natural red hair back, but he retained his post-COIE origin in everything else.

The point is that some things will come back, but not everything. Infinite Crisis and the 90s Zero Hour were tweaks. They didn't bring the Silver Age back. They just brought some Silver Age elements into the post-COIE world. It was still the post-COIE world through and through.

I have no doubt that DC will eventually do another Crisis type of event, but it will just be a tweak like Zero Hour/Infinite Crisis that brings some COIE elements back, but certainly not everything. The COIE world will never fully return. Its gone, Jim. Its gone.


Originally Posted by Preterite
And remember, the new 52 wasn't a complete reboot. Everything Batman and GL related from the pre-52 still happened
This was marketing propaganda from DC before the New 52 launched. I can't believe people still believe it today. It has clearly been proven to be false. The zero issues last year proved it. All the Robins (except Damian) were given brand new origins that were quite different from their previous origins. What they did to Tim was just absolutely horrible. Tim isn't even the guy's real name anymore. Also Batman is getting a brand new canon origin right now with Snyder's Zero Year. So Miller's Year One is no longer canon. The idea that Batman hasn't been rebooted is just flat out wrong.
Old 08-27-13, 09:23 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

#FourRobinsInFiveYearsAndAMovie
Old 08-27-13, 09:49 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy
#FourRobinsInFiveYearsAndAMovie
And 2 of those 4 have been killed.

Heck, if they ever do bring back Stephanie Brown it will be 3 Robins out of 5 that have been killed. (She died in that crappy War Games arc although it was retconned in an even more crappy story. Seriously, Leslie Thompkins faking her death just to fuck with Batman??)
Old 08-27-13, 11:44 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by Supermallet
When they added Wolverine to the X-Men it all went downhill so fast.
You joke but there was a huge blowback from fans when Wolverine was added to the X-Men back in '75. Fans did not want him on the team. Neither did Dave Cockrum. He was almost dropped before John Byrne came in and strengthened the character's position with the group.

Now Wolverine is on every Marvel team.
Old 08-27-13, 11:54 AM
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Re: fans who can't accept changes

Originally Posted by taffer
This was marketing propaganda from DC before the New 52 launched. I can't believe people still believe it today. It has clearly been proven to be false. The zero issues last year proved it. All the Robins (except Damian) were given brand new origins that were quite different from their previous origins. What they did to Tim was just absolutely horrible. Tim isn't even the guy's real name anymore. Also Batman is getting a brand new canon origin right now with Snyder's Zero Year. So Miller's Year One is no longer canon. The idea that Batman hasn't been rebooted is just flat out wrong.
Batman & GL got more of a soft reboot. Batman may have changed things going forward but GL continued directly from the War of the Green Lanterns pre-52. They might as well have labeled Green Lantern #1 issue #68 instead.

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