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View Full Version : Cops enter home to arrest woman for not talking to them - legal?


argh923
04-26-12, 01:26 PM
So I'm talking to a friend who just witnessed her neighbor being arrested. Here's what happened.

My friend is standing outside on her doorstep smoking when a cop car pulls up, and two officers get out. They knock next door (just a few feet away from my friend), and the neighbor opens the door. Cops say they want to talk to her about her ex-husband. Neighbor refuses, cop #1 grabs her arm and says she needs to come with them. Neighbor begins yelling for her boyfriend, cops enter property, are inside for approximately 30 seconds, and then bring neighbor outside in handcuffs. My friend says no warrant was given, and no miranda rights were read, although she cannot say that this didn't happen at the vehicle.

Is that legal? My thinking was if they had an arrest warrant it would be, but I'm not sure. Just curious.

RocShemp
04-26-12, 01:37 PM
Maybe she hit one of the cops while they were indoors. that said, the cop had no business grabbing her by the arm if she refused to talk (assuming she wan't being charged with anything).

BrewCrew
04-26-12, 02:06 PM
There was a video posted here a few months ago basically saying you should never talk to cops.

argh923
04-26-12, 02:08 PM
My friend said there was no mention of her being charged with anything, so I'm not really sure why. Was it legal for them to enter the property like that, though?

Rockmjd23
04-26-12, 02:10 PM
My guess is that it didn't really happen the way that your friend thinks it did.

Th0r S1mpson
04-26-12, 02:12 PM
So what did her ex husband do?

This obviously wasn't just a courteous chit-chat.

They probably had a warrant. If not, I don't know. I assume you can close the door on the cops if you want to and they'd need a warrant if they want something more from you.

RichC2
04-26-12, 02:14 PM
Only if she's previously spoken to the police and knowingly lied. Then she could be arrested on obstruction of justice.

argh923
04-26-12, 02:17 PM
No clue about what the ex has or hasn't done...not sure.

My assumption is that they had a warrant for her arrest. They wouldn't have to present said warrant prior to arrest, correct?

GMan2819
04-26-12, 02:36 PM
Was the neighbor Black?

superdeluxe
04-26-12, 02:38 PM
So I'm talking to a friend who just witnessed her neighbor being arrested. Here's what happened.

My friend is standing outside on her doorstep smoking when a cop car pulls up, and two officers get out. They knock next door (just a few feet away from my friend), and the neighbor opens the door. Cops say they want to talk to her about her ex-husband. Neighbor refuses, cop #1 grabs her arm and says she needs to come with them. Neighbor begins yelling for her boyfriend, cops enter property, are inside for approximately 30 seconds, and then bring neighbor outside in handcuffs. My friend says no warrant was given, and no miranda rights were read, although she cannot say that this didn't happen at the vehicle.

Is that legal? My thinking was if they had an arrest warrant it would be, but I'm not sure. Just curious.

Were you there, or is everything you are telling us second hand information? I'm guessing there might be more to the story.

If they see something some sort of crime without actually going in, they can enter. Maybe the boyfriend had a warrant

Hokeyboy
04-26-12, 02:39 PM
She should have stopped resisting.

argh923
04-26-12, 02:48 PM
Was the neighbor Black?

No.

Were you there, or is everything you are telling us second hand information? I'm guessing there might be more to the story.

If they see something some sort of crime without actually going in, they can enter. Maybe the boyfriend had a warrant

I wasn't there...hence me saying that my friend witnessed this. :)

The boyfriend wasn't arrested, though...only the woman.

Numanoid
04-26-12, 02:55 PM
People use the term "arrested" way too loosely. I'm sure some of the Otter cops can clear this up better than I, but as I understand it, the police can "detain" you without charging you with a crime, nor arresting you. Miranda does not have to be read until you are actually placed under arrest (which involves mug shots, finger prints, court dates, bail, perhaps jail time, etc.) Sounds like she was most likely detained for questioning.

wishbone
04-26-12, 02:59 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/f3Qy56crC8w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Th0r S1mpson
04-26-12, 03:10 PM
I like how people here ASSUME that the cops were in the right. I'm guessing she was minding her own business and the cops got all high and mighty and decided to take it out on this poor woman. Am I speculating? Sure. We're ALL speculating. But I think this woman was innocent and they basically assaulted her in her own home!

Was the neighbor Black?

No.

Ah, my bad. My bad. Abrg923 getting me all worked up over nothing. You need to include this sort of information!

Quatermass
04-26-12, 03:21 PM
They were there to arrest her all along. They wanted to establish her identity, then get her off guard thinking they were there for something else, so they could take her into custody quietly. I guess it didn't work.

Shannon Nutt
04-26-12, 03:26 PM
My friend said there was no mention of her being charged with anything, so I'm not really sure why. Was it legal for them to enter the property like that, though?

Yes, it's called reasonable cause. They probably had a warrant for the boyfriend...when she yelled for him, they had reasonable cause he was inside.

Tracer Bullet
04-26-12, 03:26 PM
People use the term "arrested" way too loosely. I'm sure some of the Otter cops can clear this up better than I, but as I understand it, the police can "detain" you without charging you with a crime, nor arresting you. Miranda does not have to be read until you are actually placed under arrest (which involves mug shots, finger prints, court dates, bail, perhaps jail time, etc.) Sounds like she was most likely detained for questioning.

I'm not sure if it's standard practice to handcuff someone you are detaining. I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't know. To me it would seem reasonable that you could if the person were a danger, but other than that...

dsa_shea
04-26-12, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure if it's standard practice to handcuff someone you are detaining. I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't know. To me it would seem reasonable that you could if the person were a danger, but other than that...

Police sometimes handcuff people they are detaining to ensure the safety of all involved. Being handcuffed does not mean that an arrest has been made.

Rockmjd23
04-26-12, 03:52 PM
I'm not sure if it's standard practice to handcuff someone you are detaining. I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't know. To me it would seem reasonable that you could if the person were a danger, but other than that...
I thought the same thing but then again they handcuffed Zimmerman and didn't arrest him the night of the shooting.

clckworang
04-26-12, 03:52 PM
Material witness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_witness) maybe?

Goat3001
04-26-12, 03:55 PM
My guess is that it didn't really happen the way that your friend thinks it did.

Yep.

Was the neighbor Black?

No.


Then no, it's not legal.

argh923
04-26-12, 04:01 PM
For what it's worth, my friend is all "they violated her rights and blah blah and this can't be legal and they can't enter her home" and all that, and I'm pretty sure she's wrong.

They were there to arrest her all along. They wanted to establish her identity, then get her off guard thinking they were there for something else, so they could take her into custody quietly. I guess it didn't work.

This is kind of what I was thinking. And apparently the neighbor made a big scene over it (she's the type, from the one time I met her), so yeah, definitely didn't work if so.

Yes, it's called reasonable cause. They probably had a warrant for the boyfriend...when she yelled for him, they had reasonable cause he was inside.

The boyfriend wasn't arrested or detained in any way, so I doubt that's the case.

Police sometimes handcuff people they are detaining to ensure the safety of all involved. Being handcuffed does not mean that an arrest has been made.

Makes sense. So if she refused to talk to them about something they're investigating, they could've detained her for further questioning - hence going into the home and bringing her out in cuffs?

Navinabob
04-26-12, 05:18 PM
I'm just speculating here: Was the boyfriend on parole? If she raised her voice and refused to let them in they could be thinking she is giving him time to flush drugs or run out the back. Once you house someone who is on parole you lose many of the rights you normally would assume you have. They might have just been doing an address identification as well. One condition of parole is having a valid address. People have been known to use commercial addresses, fake contacts or places they are not staying at to get released. Had she just said "he lives here, he's inside" they might have made an introduction and left.

I've been pulled out of bed by SWAT and handcuffed to a banister in my underwear when they came looking for my brother once many years ago. It was not a fun morning.

Th0r S1mpson
04-26-12, 05:20 PM
I've been pulled out of bed by SWAT and handcuffed to a banister in my underwear when they came looking for my brother once many years ago. It was not a fun morning.

Mgbfan was only pretending to know your brother.

wishbone
04-26-12, 05:29 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/4h71gm.gif

Dr Mabuse
04-26-12, 05:32 PM
She should have stopped resisting.

rotfl

Heat
04-26-12, 06:34 PM
I think that we can safely assume that the police officers were not vampires. Else, they would not have been able to enter without invitation.

mndtrp
04-26-12, 09:19 PM
What about a domestic violence call? I've watched enough COPS to see the similarities.

jfoobar
04-26-12, 09:33 PM
People use the term "arrested" way too loosely.

Really, the term is pretty loose anyway. Whenever someone with arrest powers exercises those powers to deprive you of your liberty of free movement, you are effectively under arrest (as in, your liberty of movement has been arrested). For example, when you pulled over for speeding, you are legally under arrest because you are not just free to drive off until released by the officer.

Obviously, the arrest in "arrest warrant" refers to what most people traditionally think of as an "arrest", which would include the apprehension, arrest and taking into custody.

Quatermass is likely the closest to the truth. They had an arrest warrant and were just trying to be coy about it, to get her to step outside as that was much preferable (see: safer) than trying to take her in the house.

Miranda does not have to be read until you are actually placed under arrest (which involves mug shots, finger prints, court dates, bail, perhaps jail time, etc.) Sounds like she was most likely detained for questioning.

Miranda need only be read prior to questioning. The police might choose to wait hours before Mirandizing someone, or might choose to not do it at all.

crazyronin
04-27-12, 06:00 AM
So I'm talking to a friend who just witnessed her neighbor being arrested. Here's what happened.

My friend is standing outside on her doorstep smoking when a cop car pulls up, and two officers get out. They knock next door (just a few feet away from my friend), and the neighbor opens the door. Cops say they want to talk to her about her ex-husband. Neighbor refuses, cop #1 grabs her arm and says she needs to come with them. Neighbor begins yelling for her boyfriend, cops enter property, are inside for approximately 30 seconds, and then bring neighbor outside in handcuffs. My friend says no warrant was given, and no miranda rights were read, although she cannot say that this didn't happen at the vehicle.

Is that legal? My thinking was if they had an arrest warrant it would be, but I'm not sure. Just curious.

Have you tried searching local news sites to find out more than "a friend said?"

inquiring minds want to know

wishbone
04-27-12, 08:35 AM
Neighbors feuding over dog
10:17 PM, Apr. 25, 2012

MUNCIE -- A dispute over ownership of a dog has resulted in police twice being sent to a near-downtown neighborhood in recent days, with one related arrest.

Brandon Charles Smith, 29, of the 600 block of North Mulberry Street, says his puppy named Weezy -- a husky/German shepherd/pit bull mix -- apparently ran away from home on
April 14.

Last Saturday night, Smith was walking in his neighborhood when he saw a dog he believed to be Weezy in a fenced-in yard.

According to Smith, a youngster in the yard indicated that dog had lived with his family for about a week.

In a police report, Smith said a man then emerged from a house on the property "enraged" and threatened to beat him.

That prompted Smith to call police, he recalled this week, and officers ultimately told him he was "out of luck" when it came to reclaiming the dog.

On Tuesday, Smith filed a theft report at City Hall, resulting in police returning to the house where the dog in question now lives. The man there told an officer that his family had owned the dog for more than a month.

That officer wrote that the dog "looks similar" to cellphone photographs Smith provided of Weezy.

However, a Muncie Animal Shelter employee called to the scene reported the dog appeared to be younger than 8-10 months, Weezy's estimated age. (Smith on Wednesday said he had recalculated his dog's age, and now believes it to be five months.)

Because both the dog owner and Smith lacked any paperwork proving purchase of the dog, or documenting their pet had been vaccinated for rabies, the shelter worker suggested ownership of the dog would likely have to be resolved through a civil lawsuit.

Tempers again flared, and Smith's sister-in-law, 22-year-old Telia Jessie, was arrested for disorderly conduct. Police said she had refused to stop yelling and cursing.

The dog owner, meanwhile, was cited for harboring a non-immunized dog, which Phil Peckinpaugh, superintendent of the animal shelter, said would likely result in a fine and imposition of court costs.

"There are two great reasons to immunize your dog," Peckinpaugh said. "It's state law. And it could immediately resolve (such an ownership dispute)."

Smith said Wednesday he had been back in touch with city police, and was hopeful DNA tests could be conducted on his puppy's mother and father and the dog he believes to be Weezy.

He also said pursuing litigation would be a challenge, even if limited to the filing fee needed to represent himself in a small claims case.

"I don't make much money, and I've got bills to pay, and four kids," he said.

But he doesn't rule out that option.http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20120426/NEWS01/204260375/Neighbors-feuding-over-dog?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage%20DontMiss

Is this your friend?

Rex Power Colt-Robot Man
04-27-12, 04:55 PM
Really, the term is pretty loose anyway. Whenever someone with arrest powers exercises those powers to deprive you of your liberty of free movement, you are effectively under arrest (as in, your liberty of movement has been arrested). For example, when you pulled over for speeding, you are legally under arrest because you are not just free to drive off until released by the officer.

Obviously, the arrest in "arrest warrant" refers to what most people traditionally think of as an "arrest", which would include the apprehension, arrest and taking into custody.

Quatermass is likely the closest to the truth. They had an arrest warrant and were just trying to be coy about it, to get her to step outside as that was much preferable (see: safer) than trying to take her in the house.



Miranda need only be read prior to questioning. The police might choose to wait hours before Mirandizing someone, or might choose to not do it at all.

You're confusing the dictionary definition of the word arrest and the legal definition of arrest.

argh923
04-27-12, 06:02 PM
Have you tried searching local news sites to find out more than "a friend said?"

inquiring minds want to know

Just searched the newspaper arrest log, and asked my friend the neighbor's name...according to the newspaper, she was jailed for theft. Soooo...yeah. Pretty much confirms they already had an arrest warrant.

http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20120426/NEWS01/204260375/Neighbors-feuding-over-dog?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage%20DontMiss

Is this your friend?

Nope. Not sure who those people are.

DVD Polizei
04-27-12, 06:19 PM
Really, the term is pretty loose anyway. Whenever someone with arrest powers exercises those powers to deprive you of your liberty of free movement, you are effectively under arrest (as in, your liberty of movement has been arrested). For example, when you pulled over for speeding, you are legally under arrest because you are not just free to drive off until released by the officer.

Obviously, the arrest in "arrest warrant" refers to what most people traditionally think of as an "arrest", which would include the apprehension, arrest and taking into custody.

Quatermass is likely the closest to the truth. They had an arrest warrant and were just trying to be coy about it, to get her to step outside as that was much preferable (see: safer) than trying to take her in the house.



Miranda need only be read prior to questioning. The police might choose to wait hours before Mirandizing someone, or might choose to not do it at all.

In the case of being pulled-over for speeding, you are NOT under arrest. Because if you are, this means you committed a CRIME.

Speeding is a moving violation and technically, has yet to be proven in a court of law. So technically, you haven't violated any laws, eventhough you will have a violation ticket in your hands within a few moments. Your duty is to give the officer your ID and vehicle registration, and accept the alleged violation, and have a choice of paying the fine or going to court and defending yourself.

If you decide to AVOID THE TICKET by driving off, which is a form of obstructing the procedure of a police officer, then you more than likely will be written up for more than just moving violations which will more than likely require an arrest.

Numanoid
04-28-12, 07:28 PM
You're confusing the dictionary definition of the word arrest and the legal definition of arrest.He sure is, which why I tried to clarify the idea of being "detained". When you are detained, you aren't free to move either, but you are not legally under arrest.