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View Full Version : BTW, there was an election in France this week


wendersfan
04-24-12, 07:36 AM
I thought someone else might start a thread about it, but I guess you were all too busy having the same arguments for the hundredth time.

Anyway, the French have this weird Presidential election system where there's a first round of voting, then a second-round runoff. In the first round, incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy (Union pour un Mouvement Populaire) received just over 27% of the vote, while François Hollande (Parti Socialiste) got about 29% of the vote. They will compete in the runoff election, to be held May 6. The best showing by any other parties was Front National candidate Marine Le Pen, who received about 18% of the vote.

As one might expect, the economy has been the main issue in the election. Right now Hollande has a small lead in the runoff polling, but the big question is where the far-right Front National will go - obviously immigration is a big issue for them.

wishbone
04-24-12, 07:55 AM
http://i42.tinypic.com/9biz61.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/66cke1.jpg

wishbone
04-24-12, 07:55 AM
http://i44.tinypic.com/2a85dzr.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vdmdmv.jpg

Sarkozy as Count Chocula? :confused:

Tracer Bullet
04-24-12, 08:43 AM
I thought someone else might start a thread about it, but I guess you were all too busy having the same arguments for the hundredth time.

http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/funny-celebrity-pictures-oh-snap.gif

Internet!

Tracer Bullet
04-24-12, 08:45 AM
Anyway, this is obviously a pivotal election for Europe, as it puts the German/French austerity superteam on notice. If Hollande wins the runoff, the debt crisis in Europe flares up again. Could Merkel be vulnerable? She's already defending her economic policies because of the French election.

DeputyDave
04-24-12, 09:06 AM
What Europe needs now is more successful Socialist policies.

Tracer Bullet
04-24-12, 09:10 AM
What Europe needs now is more successful Socialist policies.

Well, this was a fun thread while it lasted.

DeputyDave
04-24-12, 09:17 AM
Well, this was a fun thread while it lasted.

What did you expect when you start a thread about an election between a socialist and a right wing conservative? Especially considering the economic woes facing Europe right now.

Tracer Bullet
04-24-12, 09:29 AM
What did you expect when you start a thread about an election between a socialist and a right wing conservative? Especially considering the economic woes facing Europe right now.

Thought?

DeputyDave
04-24-12, 09:47 AM
Thought?

Well, the sarcasm was intended and refects what I thought. Most of Europe's problems can be traced back to Socialism. At least I didn't compare him to Count Chocula.

Tommy Ceez
04-24-12, 09:52 AM
Europeans are rejecting Austerity, because they realize that when jobs are scarce, laying off the Public Sector actually means LESS WORK!!!

Who would have thunk it!

Ky-Fi
04-24-12, 10:00 AM
Too long to post, but here's an interesting read on the Muslim perspective of the Muslim/far left electoral alliance:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/04/201242021237996351.html

wendersfan
04-24-12, 11:45 AM
Most of Europe's problems can be traced back to Socialism.Not a fan of Tony Judt, I take it?

kvrdave
04-24-12, 01:06 PM
Europeans are rejecting Austerity, because they realize that when jobs are scarce, laying off the Public Sector actually means LESS WORK!!!

Who would have thunk it!

The problem with that is that if you don't reduce the spending of your government (which is largely salaries) and you are tied to the Euro, you are taking very temporary relief in favor of much bigger problems in the long term....and not really all that long. You can't keep people working with money you don't have forever. Especially when you need money from other people in the European Union.

Shannon Nutt
04-24-12, 02:23 PM
If I were French, I'd reelect Sarkozy for his hot wife alone.

http://facileblog.it/files/9/files/2010/05/Nicolas_Sarkozy_Carla_Bruni_.jpg

Tommy Ceez
04-24-12, 02:44 PM
The problem with that is that if you don't reduce the spending of your government (which is largely salaries) and you are tied to the Euro, you are taking very temporary relief in favor of much bigger problems in the long term....and not really all that long. You can't keep people working with money you don't have forever. Especially when you need money from other people in the European Union.

Austerity works when the economy is humming, its retarded when the economy is slow and unemployment is high

The Bus
04-24-12, 04:33 PM
What did you expect when you start a thread about an election between a socialist and a right wing conservative? Especially considering the economic woes facing Europe right now.

You forgot Sarkozy.

Pharoh
04-24-12, 05:04 PM
Austerity works when the economy is humming, its retarded when the economy is slow and unemployment is high

You don't really understand France's problems, do you? Not only do they not have time to wait until times are booming, but Germany won't allow them to. Nor will the rest of the northern EU. They can't.

You also understand that austerity is going forward regardless of what campaign rhetoric Hollande has uttered, correct? And who would have thought that in a nation where where the public sector accounts for over 50% of GDP and close to 30% of employment, people might get upset if their golden egg is lessened a bit?

Tommy Ceez
04-24-12, 07:26 PM
Well, since economists agree on nothing this next statement is meaningless...some that I have read insist that Europes austerity programs are heading them to a deepening recession.

Pharoh
04-24-12, 08:09 PM
Well, since economists agree on nothing this next statement is meaningless...some that I have read insist that Europes austerity programs are heading them to a deepening recession.

I wouldn't doubt that the austerity will cause some economic worsening. However, the systematic problems that France faces will force them to maintain some type of austerity program; they must cut the public sector. Germany will also force them to keep on track. Of course there remain the breakup of the EU option, I suppose.

Pharoh
04-24-12, 08:26 PM
By the way, Sarkozy will win. Unless I am underestimating Sarkozy fatigue.


And Hollande's ex isn't too shabby looking, especially for her age. Also doesn't hurt that she ran for President in 07.

kvrdave
04-24-12, 10:19 PM
Well, since economists agree on nothing this next statement is meaningless...some that I have read insist that Europes austerity programs are heading them to a deepening recession.

I think it might well do that. However, I don't think that not having austerity is the key to them getting to a humming economy. And they will never think their economy is good enough for austerity. Plus, they made the choice to be tied to the Euro, so they don't have much choice if they want bailed out.

eXcentris
04-24-12, 11:06 PM
By the way, Sarkozy will win. Unless I am underestimating Sarkozy fatigue.


1. It was the first time in history that an outgoing president had been beaten by a challenger in the first round.

2. So far, all the polls point to Hollande winning the 2nd round.

"Si dimanche prochain devait se dérouler le second tour de l’élection présidentielle, pour lequel des candidats suivants y aurait-il le plus de chances que vous votiez ?"

(Who would you vote for if the runoff (2nd round) of the Presidential election took place next Sunday?)

Opinion- Way Ifop R BVA CSA Harris Ifop Ipsos Opinion- Way Ifop BVA CSA Harris Ipsos
23-24 avril 22-24 avril 22 avril 22 avril 22 avril 22 avril 22 avril 22 avril 18-20 avril 18-19 avril 18-19 avril 18-19 avril 18-19 avril
François Hollande 54 55 53 56 54 54,5 54 54 54,5 57 57 54 56
Nicolas Sarkozy 46 45 47 44 46 45,5 46 46 45,5 43 43 46 44

Shazam
04-24-12, 11:12 PM
Austerity works when the economy is humming, its retarded when the economy is slow and unemployment is high
Their other choice is to default on their debt.

Besides, their bonds rates are so high, they're junk. So, hey, feel free to help them out by buying some of those bonds :lol:

Tracer Bullet
04-25-12, 08:25 AM
1. It was the first time in history that an outgoing president had been beaten by a challenger in the first round.

2. So far, all the polls point to Hollande winning the 2nd round.

Pharoh isn't right a lot. I respect his opinion on many things, but he's not a great prognosticator.

Tracer Bullet
04-25-12, 08:27 AM
You don't really understand France's problems, do you? Not only do they not have time to wait until times are booming, but Germany won't allow them to. Nor will the rest of the northern EU. They can't.

You also understand that austerity is going forward regardless of what campaign rhetoric Hollande has uttered, correct? And who would have thought that in a nation where where the public sector accounts for over 50% of GDP and close to 30% of employment, people might get upset if their golden egg is lessened a bit?

While all this may be true, it's irrelevant to the mood of France, and that mood is not very happy. I don't see Merkel losing her austerity buddy and the rest of Europe happily taking marching orders from Germany.

Pharoh
04-26-12, 06:42 PM
Pharoh isn't right a lot. I respect his opinion on many things, but he's not a great prognosticator.

:lol:
Thanks. I think.

Somewhat seriously though, I am right a good deal more than not; from African elections to US midterms, my record over the last twelve years is not too shabby. I think it even a bit better when it is about something I actually care about and have put some thought into. Of course, that doesn't happen that much anymore, except about currency. Besides, when you swing a lot, you're going to miss a lot.
:)

As for France, I based my quick quip on Sarkozy trending up and my belief that he would be able to garner the necessary percentage of Le Pen's supports without alienating too much of the center. Though that was before the President pissed off Bayrou. :lol:

We'll see what happens when they debate.

Pharoh
04-26-12, 06:46 PM
While all this may be true, it's irrelevant to the mood of France, and that mood is not very happy. I don't see Merkel losing her austerity buddy and the rest of Europe happily taking marching orders from Germany.

As I alluded to in my other post. People affected, and in France it is many many people, are going to be upset. Of course, the people in Germany aren't going to allow the abandonment of austerity, so it cuts both ways. Sure, a little less austere measures, but as long as the Germans have to prevent France from imploding due to their Spanish and Italian exposure, they are going to get the last word.

Tracer Bullet
04-26-12, 09:10 PM
As I alluded to in my other post. People affected, and in France it is many many people, are going to be upset. Of course, the people in Germany aren't going to allow the abandonment of austerity, so it cuts both ways. Sure, a little less austere measures, but as long as the Germans have to prevent France from imploding due to their Spanish and Italian exposure, they are going to get the last word.

So in effect Germany becomes the European Union? Why do I feel like I'm living in an alternate history novel?

Pharoh
04-26-12, 09:20 PM
So in effect Germany becomes the European Union? Why do I feel like I'm living in an alternate history novel?

No, but either Germany and her like minded nations, (Germany is not alone), sets the direction or the union changes into something less. It's not to say that France won't have input, the already mentioned less austere growth measures, but the course isn't going to change. I guess that is the benefit of having money.

kvrdave
04-26-12, 11:02 PM
So in effect Germany becomes the European Union? Why do I feel like I'm living in an alternate history novel?

Shit, it's not alternate history, just history all over again. :lol:

Tracer Bullet
04-27-12, 08:47 AM
No, but either Germany and her like minded nations, (Germany is not alone), sets the direction or the union changes into something less. It's not to say that France won't have input, the already mentioned less austere growth measures, but the course isn't going to change. I guess that is the benefit of having money.

I thought the benefit of having money was the ability to make it rain in a room full of prostitutes, but what do I know.

Tracer Bullet
04-27-12, 08:49 AM
Oh, and I'll bet on the European Union changing into something else. I fundamentally do not see the Greeks, French, Spanish, et al. taking marching orders from Germany indefinitely.

CRM114
04-27-12, 08:53 AM
...people might get upset if their golden egg is lessened a bit?

Wait, simply being employed by the state is a "golden egg?" :lol: The hyperbole about public workers is reaching new heights.

arminius
04-27-12, 09:13 AM
Oh, and I'll bet on the European Union changing into something else. I fundamentally do not see the Greeks, French, Spanish, et al. taking marching orders from Germany indefinitely.

I agree, but they will take handouts from Germany as long as they can.

The Bus
04-27-12, 08:22 PM
<img src="https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485809_10150775652984060_6013004059_9486805_627323942_n.jpg">

Th0r S1mpson
04-27-12, 10:54 PM
<img src="https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485809_10150775652984060_6013004059_9486805_627323942_n.jpg">

I see he's already practicing raising the white part.

eXcentris
04-29-12, 06:53 PM
The Economist is fiscally conservative. I woudn't put too much weight on their take on Hollande which is likely confusing political rhetoric in an election campaign with what will actually happen if he becomes President. But gasp! He's from the Socialist party!...

And FYI, in a country where the "manifestations" (demonstrating in the streets) is almost a national sport, the EU wide protests against austerity measures drew relatively few people in France. Even if Hollande is elected, that should give you a clue as to what the future holds, i.e. as Pharoh suggested, perhaps a little less "austere" but the course will essentially remain the same.

Pharoh
05-04-12, 11:41 AM
Since this is the only European election thread around, I thought I would put in a comment on Greece. Plus, it gives me another opportunity to be wrong.


Unfortunately, it appears a certainty that the golden dawn will take a place in the Greek parliament. I had hoped the voters would come to their senses, but I think not; they may actually surpass 5%. Scary times.


As for France, it looks as Sarkozy has run out of time. He has closed the gap, but not enough. His failure to appease and pull in Bayrou has doomed him. Bayrou, by the way, stated he will be voting for Mr. Hollande.


Also, we will get the results tonight of the London Mayoral elections. I'll go out on a very small limb and say Boris wins again.

kvrdave
05-04-12, 12:48 PM
That will piss off Moose and Squirrel.

Nick Danger
05-06-12, 01:55 PM
Exit polls show Hollande the victor.

Th0r S1mpson
05-06-12, 04:24 PM
Wow.

kvrdave
05-06-12, 04:38 PM
Sarkozy conceded according to the radio news.

PopcornTreeCt
05-06-12, 05:54 PM
According Wikipedia's page for Hollande's policies. He sounds amazing. Supports same sex marriage, wants to hire more teachers and improve funding for education, promises to reduce the deficit and by actually doing realistically by raising taxes. He also wants all French troops out of Afghanistan by end of year. These were all campaign promises, but at least they're ones I can agree with.

Th0r S1mpson
05-06-12, 06:10 PM
Yes, he has A LOT in common with our President.

What party is he with, again?

Nick Danger
05-06-12, 06:25 PM
Hollande has promised hiring 60,000 new teachers, lowering the pension age to 60, no decrease in the size of government, and a 75% tax on the rich.

There is a big difference between Obama and a socialist. The only people who say differently are trying to sell you a bill of goods.

Th0r S1mpson
05-06-12, 07:12 PM
There is a big difference between Obama and a socialist.

Maybe he's just not very good at it.

DVD Polizei
05-06-12, 07:19 PM
I hope the price of Hollandaise sauces don't go up. That's where I draw the line.

PopcornTreeCt
05-06-12, 07:49 PM
Yes, he has A LOT in common with our President.

What party is he with, again?

If only.

wishbone
05-06-12, 08:46 PM
Yes, he has A LOT in common with our President.

What party is he with, again?Hoh hoh hope and change?

kvrdave
05-06-12, 10:25 PM
Hollande has promised hiring 60,000 new teachers, lowering the pension age to 60, no decrease in the size of government, and a 75% tax on the rich.


rotfl

Let's see them in a couple of years. Anyone want to wager whether their deficit will be lower at the end of his first term than it is now (assuming he hires all the teachers, lowers the pension age, does not decrease government, and puts in a 75% tax on the rich)?

eXcentris
05-06-12, 10:41 PM
If we start using campaign promises as a predictor of future events, I'm pretty sure most countries would be doomed. :)

eXcentris
05-06-12, 10:49 PM
French, Greek voters send message to Germany
Commentary: Germany’s austerity push has backfired on the euro zone

By MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Sunday’s elections in France and Greece contain many lessons for Europe’s leaders. Perhaps most prominent among them is that the push by Germany to solve the European debt crisis primarily by imposing harsh and unrelenting austerity on heavily indebted euro-zone countries was a serious miscalculation whose unintended consequences are still unfolding.

On Sunday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy joined a lengthening list of leaders in Europe who have been voted out of office as a direct result of popular dissatisfaction with austerity focused policy responses to the debt crisis. Greek voters, furious about austerity, elected a parliament that may struggle to form a government, let alone pass further austerity measures in time to meet looming deadlines.

As obvious as the lesson may seem, it’s fair to ask whether Merkel and Germany’s other leaders, along with the rest of Europe’s political class, will learn it. Because it isn’t the first time that Germany’s obsession with economic rigor has backfired for the euro zone.

Back in 1997, around the time Europe was setting terms for the creation of the euro, Germany threw some sand in the gears of EU machinery by demanding that all the countries that wanted to join new currency sign a “Stability Pact.”

Germany argued that without the pact, which would punish countries if they ran a deficit of more than 3% of gross domestic product or national debt over 60% of GDP, Europe’s governments would spend too much money and undermine the euro.

Some governments objected, but Germany got its way. Yes, the French and some others insisted the agreement be renamed the “Stability and Growth Pact,” but the growth label was just that, a label.

Then, in 2003, just four years after the launch of the euro, Germany and France were the first to breach the pact’s deficit targets. The EU did nothing to punish either country, which fatally damaged the fiscal credibility of Europe’s largest powers and made certain no euro-zone member would ever have to take the pact’s deficit and debt targets seriously.

The pact turned out to be a classic overreach by Germany, resulting in essentially the opposite of the desired outcome.

With that as prelude, one would think Germany would be alert to the possibility that its ‘my way or the highway’ approach to resolving the crisis might be flawed. But instead, its behavior since the debt crisis exploded bears striking similarities to the run up to the creation of the Stability and Growth Pact.

Germany, backed by many EU political leaders and the bloc’s economic bureaucrats, has insisted that European countries adopt austerity as the primary approach to restoring Europe’s damaged economies to health. It also convinced almost all EU members to sign up to a Fiscal Compact that sets even stricter limits on deficits and debts than the Stability Pact.

The backlash has started. Confronted with falling governments, violent protests, record unemployment and a double-dip recession, EU leaders are beginning to discuss growth-focused solutions to the region’s economic problems. Even Germany has made noises recently about supporting growth.

So has the lesson been learned? It’s hard to tell. There has been no suggestion that austerity should be relaxed, only that some efforts to boost growth be used to balance the screw tightening. Time will tell whether Socialist French President-elect François Hollande can put in place his growth-oriented policies without triggering a market attack on French government bonds or whether the Greek political process can find a way to keep the country in the euro without condemning its citizens to penury for decades.

— Christopher Noble

kvrdave
05-06-12, 11:56 PM
Europe. Keeping the American dollar strong, even when it shouldn't be. :lol:

It must suck to have your money shared by Greece. Either they fall into a giant pit, or you end up devaluing the currency so that they can continue to find a bigger pit to prepare to fall into.

DeputyDave
05-07-12, 09:10 AM
Hollande has promised hiring 60,000 new teachers, lowering the pension age to 60, no decrease in the size of government, and a 75% tax on the rich.

Oh yes, that'll work.

Dr Mabuse
05-07-12, 11:30 AM
Europe. Keeping the American dollar strong, even when it shouldn't be. :lol:

:lol:

The truth of that is hilarious and frightening at the same time.

B.A.
05-07-12, 02:32 PM
Hollande has promised hiring 60,000 new teachers, lowering the pension age to 60, no decrease in the size of government, and a 75% tax on the rich.Lowering the pension age?

Why doesn't he shorten the work week as well?

Th0r S1mpson
05-07-12, 02:56 PM
Not sure how things work over there, but in France does the President have the power to hire 60,000 new teachers, lower the pension age to 60, have no decrease in the size of government, and place a 75% tax on the rich? Who will need to come along side him to make that happen?

Tracer Bullet
05-07-12, 03:11 PM
Not sure how things work over there, but in France does the President have the power to hire 60,000 new teachers, lower the pension age to 60, have no decrease in the size of government, and place a 75% tax on the rich? Who will need to come along side him to make that happen?

Angela Merkel.

Dr Mabuse
05-07-12, 03:29 PM
Lowering the pension age?

Why doesn't he shorten the work week as well?

I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but he did promise to shorten the work week too. As an individual promise from him, and as a platform of the Socialist Party.

Nausicaa
05-07-12, 03:35 PM
Isn't their work week already 30-35 hours or something like that? I know people in my industry work a great many fewer hours than us in the states. And I know that in France the whole country basically shuts down and goes on vacation during the month of August.

Supermallet
05-07-12, 03:39 PM
Not sure how things work over there, but in France does the President have the power to hire 60,000 new teachers, lower the pension age to 60, have no decrease in the size of government, and place a 75% tax on the rich? Who will need to come along side him to make that happen?

The French president has far more power than ours does (in proportion to the legislature or courts), so yes, he could conceivably do those things. Also, if he feels the National Assembly is dragging their feet on legislation, he can call a referendum to be voted on directly by the French people. If the French really want 60,000 new teachers, lower pension ages, and a 75% tax on the rich, they can get those things far more easily than we could.

Nazgul
05-07-12, 03:50 PM
Angela Merkel.

No she won't.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/07/germany-warns-france-it-wont-fund-new-socialist-leaders-promise-to-end-austerity/

BKenn01
05-07-12, 07:55 PM
Isn't their work week already 30-35 hours or something like that? I know people in my industry work a great many fewer hours than us in the states. And I know that in France the whole country basically shuts down and goes on vacation during the month of August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek

Yes! but at election time the candy store is always open.

French, Greek voters send message to Germany
Commentary: Germany’s austerity push has backfired on the euro zone

By MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Sunday’s elections in France and Greece contain many lessons for Europe’s leaders. Perhaps most prominent among them is that the push by Germany to solve the European debt crisis primarily by imposing harsh and unrelenting austerity on heavily indebted euro-zone countries was a serious miscalculation whose unintended consequences are still unfolding.

On Sunday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy joined a lengthening list of leaders in Europe who have been voted out of office as a direct result of popular dissatisfaction with austerity focused policy responses to the debt crisis. Greek voters, furious about austerity, elected a parliament that may struggle to form a government, let alone pass further austerity measures in time to meet looming deadlines.

As obvious as the lesson may seem, it’s fair to ask whether Merkel and Germany’s other leaders, along with the rest of Europe’s political class, will learn it. Because it isn’t the first time that Germany’s obsession with economic rigor has backfired for the euro zone.

Back in 1997, around the time Europe was setting terms for the creation of the euro, Germany threw some sand in the gears of EU machinery by demanding that all the countries that wanted to join new currency sign a “Stability Pact.”

Germany argued that without the pact, which would punish countries if they ran a deficit of more than 3% of gross domestic product or national debt over 60% of GDP, Europe’s governments would spend too much money and undermine the euro.

Some governments objected, but Germany got its way. Yes, the French and some others insisted the agreement be renamed the “Stability and Growth Pact,” but the growth label was just that, a label.

Then, in 2003, just four years after the launch of the euro, Germany and France were the first to breach the pact’s deficit targets. The EU did nothing to punish either country, which fatally damaged the fiscal credibility of Europe’s largest powers and made certain no euro-zone member would ever have to take the pact’s deficit and debt targets seriously.

The pact turned out to be a classic overreach by Germany, resulting in essentially the opposite of the desired outcome.

With that as prelude, one would think Germany would be alert to the possibility that its ‘my way or the highway’ approach to resolving the crisis might be flawed. But instead, its behavior since the debt crisis exploded bears striking similarities to the run up to the creation of the Stability and Growth Pact.

Germany, backed by many EU political leaders and the bloc’s economic bureaucrats, has insisted that European countries adopt austerity as the primary approach to restoring Europe’s damaged economies to health. It also convinced almost all EU members to sign up to a Fiscal Compact that sets even stricter limits on deficits and debts than the Stability Pact.

The backlash has started. Confronted with falling governments, violent protests, record unemployment and a double-dip recession, EU leaders are beginning to discuss growth-focused solutions to the region’s economic problems. Even Germany has made noises recently about supporting growth.

So has the lesson been learned? It’s hard to tell. There has been no suggestion that austerity should be relaxed, only that some efforts to boost growth be used to balance the screw tightening. Time will tell whether Socialist French President-elect François Hollande can put in place his growth-oriented policies without triggering a market attack on French government bonds or whether the Greek political process can find a way to keep the country in the euro without condemning its citizens to penury for decades.

— Christopher Noble

Yes but a failure is a failure. There has to be a point where no matter how much the public pisses and moans cuts will have to be made......

eXcentris
05-07-12, 08:07 PM
As the article suggests, cuts aren't the problem. The extent of the cuts without seemingly addressing the other part of the equation, growth/revenue, is. In this case, German "rigor" seems like shortsightedness.

PopcornTreeCt
05-07-12, 10:21 PM
I don't understand how all these countries have different sets of rules but all have the Euro. It's like if all the people in Texas decided to work only 3 days a week and made the rest of the country pick up the slack. Just go back to individualizing the countries and let each country have their own monetary value. What am I missing here?

X
05-07-12, 10:59 PM
What am I missing here?The goal of forming the EU.

kvrdave
05-08-12, 01:35 AM
I don't understand how all these countries have different sets of rules but all have the Euro. It's like if all the people in Texas decided to work only 3 days a week and made the rest of the country pick up the slack. Just go back to individualizing the countries and let each country have their own monetary value. What am I missing here?

The fact that a few of those countries would fall apart like the Soviet Union did, and that is bad for the rest of the countries. But it will likely happen anyway as the masses in those countries demand a 20 hour work week, 90% taxes on the rich, and the country doesn't get bailed out by the others, like Germany, who see them as a bunch of layabouts who refuse to actually work.

kvrdave
05-08-12, 01:42 AM
As the article suggests, cuts aren't the problem. The extent of the cuts without seemingly addressing the other part of the equation, growth/revenue, is. In this case, German "rigor" seems like shortsightedness.

You think they can raise taxes enough to keep up with their spending, short work weeks, and early retirement?

It is just like people that think they can lose weight by simply exercising a lot and not changing their eating habits. It has to be some of both. One without the other won't work. But now they will try to increase spending with the idea that they can raise taxes enough to take care of the increased spending and lower their deficits and debt. But they don't control their own monetary system, so they can't unilaterally decide to do it without others saying, "What? You want to simply devalue all of our currency because you don't want to work as much as we do? Why should we ever go along with that?" Austerity came about because they have tried their own stimulus plans and they haven't yielded results. But what haven't they tried? Actually spending less. Instead they think they can control their debt using the same methods they used to get themselves into this mess....going into more debt.

kvrdave
05-08-12, 01:44 AM
The fact that a few of those countries would fall apart like the Soviet Union did, and that is bad for the rest of the countries. But it will likely happen anyway as the masses in those countries demand a 20 hour work week, 90% taxes on the rich, and the country doesn't get bailed out by the others, like Germany, who see them as a bunch of layabouts who refuse to actually work.

But I think we will find that several of those countries will decide that as bad as it is to have some countries go down the Soviet Union path, it is preferable to going down with them.

Nick Danger
05-08-12, 09:02 AM
If we start using campaign promises as a predictor of future events, I'm pretty sure most countries would be doomed. :)

You're just saying that because Quebec is still part of Canada.

B.A.
05-08-12, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but he did promise to shorten the work week too. As an individual promise from him, and as a platform of the Socialist Party.

:lol:

I was joking, but the fact he actually said it makes it even better.

eXcentris
05-08-12, 01:37 PM
You think they can raise taxes enough to keep up with their spending, short work weeks, and early retirement?


No, I think that people should stop making arguments based on picking and choosing soundbites, campaign promises or distorsion of campaign promises.

For example, the right to retire at 60 would only apply to people who have started working at 18 and have contributed to the state pension plan for 41 years.

classicman2
05-08-12, 01:39 PM
Can't they retire at any age - of course with no benefits? ;)

eXcentris
05-08-12, 01:48 PM
Here's a detailed first year agenda:

http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/economie/hollande-detaille-l-agenda-de-sa-premiere-annee-au-pouvoir_290098.html

Sorry but I ain't translating...

Ok, but just this bit:

- réduction de 30% de la rémunération du chef de l'Etat et des membres du gouvernement

30% reduction in salary for the Chief of State and members of government.

Holy crap they're gonna cut stuff! ;)

X
05-08-12, 01:49 PM
For example, the right to retire at 60 would only apply to people who have started working at 18 and have contributed to the state pension plan for 41 years.And are going to live for another 20 years, half the time they worked. And the birthrate is declining.

kvrdave
05-08-12, 02:08 PM
Here's a detailed first year agenda:

http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/economie/hollande-detaille-l-agenda-de-sa-premiere-annee-au-pouvoir_290098.html

Sorry but I ain't translating...

Ok, but just this bit:

- réduction de 30% de la rémunération du chef de l'Etat et des membres du gouvernement

30% reduction in salary for the Chief of State and members of government.

Holy crap they're gonna cut stuff! ;)

:lol: On something like 500 people.

That's window dressing. I'll give them props if they do it, but it won't amount to any real money. And it will be a drop in the ocean of the shortened work weak and early pensions.

eXcentris
05-08-12, 02:16 PM
And are going to live for another 20 years, half the time they worked. And the birthrate is declining.

Doesn't mean that everyone who qualifies (which won't be that many people anyway) will actually choose to retire. The worldwide trend in developed countries is for older people to work longer and/or even go back to work. Plus, the birth rate in France is the highest (2.1) in the EU and well above the OECD average, mostly because of incentives/"child-friendly" policies.

classicman2
05-08-12, 02:46 PM
I believe any country should have any type of retirement benefits & other social benefits they choose to have.

I don't believe the citizens of this country should have any say about it.

grundle
05-11-12, 05:37 PM
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/05/11/frances-new-socialist-president-owns-three-homes-on-exclusive-french-riviera/

France’s New Socialist President Owns Three Homes On Exclusive French Riviera…

Champagne Socialist.

France’s new Socialist president owns three holiday homes in the glamorous Riviera resort of Cannes, it emerged today.

The 57-year-old who ‘dislikes the rich’ and wants to revolutionise his country with high taxes and an onslaught against bankers is in fact hugely wealthy himself.

His assets were published today in the Official Journal, the gazette which contains verified information about France’s government.

To the undoubted embarrassment to the most left-wing leader in Europe and a man who styles himself as ‘Mr Normal’, they are valued at almost £1million.

As well as the spacious Paris apartment he shares with his lover Valerie Trierweiler, Hollande owns a palatial villa in Mougins, the prestigious hill-top Cannes suburb where the artist Pablo Picasso used to live.

It is valued by the Official Journal at €800,000 (£642,000), and is just a short drive from Hollande’s two flats in the Cannes. They are each priced at €230,000 (£185,000) and €140,000 (£112,000).

Hollande has promised to cut his pay by 30 per cent after he is officially sworn in as President next week, but he will still be on €156,000 (£125,000) a year, plus fabulous expenses and other perks.

The Bus
05-11-12, 06:13 PM
You can get a flat in the French Riviera for €140,000?

Awesome

JasonF
05-11-12, 07:31 PM
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/05/11/frances-new-socialist-president-owns-three-homes-on-exclusive-french-riviera/

France’s New Socialist President Owns Three Homes On Exclusive French Riviera…

Champagne Socialist.


Clearly, someone doesn't understand socialism. It could be the guy who leads a socialist political party with millions of members. It could be you and the guy from"weaselzippers." I guess we'll never know.

eXcentris
05-12-12, 10:59 PM
This is very interesting news grundle, thanks.










(read: something other than Chavez causing food shortages in Venezuela)

classicman2
05-13-12, 08:01 AM
France is in good shape compared to Greece. Greece appears to be on the road to anarchy. ;)

The Bus
05-13-12, 08:50 AM
After seeing that harrowing documentary <b>Dogtooth</b>, I see why.

kvrdave
05-13-12, 10:06 PM
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/05/11/frances-new-socialist-president-owns-three-homes-on-exclusive-french-riviera/

France’s New Socialist President Owns Three Homes On Exclusive French Riviera…

Champagne Socialist.

France’s new Socialist president owns three holiday homes in the glamorous Riviera resort of Cannes, it emerged today.

The 57-year-old who ‘dislikes the rich’ and wants to revolutionise his country with high taxes and an onslaught against bankers is in fact hugely wealthy himself.

His assets were published today in the Official Journal, the gazette which contains verified information about France’s government.

To the undoubted embarrassment to the most left-wing leader in Europe and a man who styles himself as ‘Mr Normal’, they are valued at almost £1million.

As well as the spacious Paris apartment he shares with his lover Valerie Trierweiler, Hollande owns a palatial villa in Mougins, the prestigious hill-top Cannes suburb where the artist Pablo Picasso used to live.

It is valued by the Official Journal at €800,000 (£642,000), and is just a short drive from Hollande’s two flats in the Cannes. They are each priced at €230,000 (£185,000) and €140,000 (£112,000).

Hollande has promised to cut his pay by 30 per cent after he is officially sworn in as President next week, but he will still be on €156,000 (£125,000) a year, plus fabulous expenses and other perks.

That does not seem like much money, personally.