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TheBigDave
11-18-11, 05:19 PM
I don't know whether to blame this on the Occupiers or Florida.

“Occupy” Protester Busted For Stealing Neighbor’s Furniture For Florida Encampment

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5694/jeffreyscottmug1.jpg

The 32-year-old “Occupy Pensacola” protester was arrested yesterday on felony burglary and larceny charges for allegedly robbing a neighbor’s home of furniture that he used at the protest group’s encampment outside City Hall.

Scott was nabbed shortly after victim Ned English called police to report the theft of a couch, a recliner, four wicker chairs, and four couch cushions from his home, according to an Escambia County Sheriff’s Office report.

When questioned by a deputy, Scott stated, “Yes, I took the furniture. I was going to give it back, but haven’t had a chance to.” Scott, investigators noted, admitted entering English’s home through a rear window, taking the furniture, and using some of the purloined items “at the Occupy Pensacola Camp located at City Hall.”

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/occupy-pensacola-furniture-theft-674319


Here's a Dad Of The Year candidate from Occupy Portland:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZKa4ibE9SAg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Superboy
11-18-11, 08:49 PM
Leave it to Kansas City, with its Midwestern graciousness, to have a kinder, politer OWS. :lol:


OWS in LA didn't cause too much of a ruckus. Their hospitality was really good too. They were feeding tons of homeless people in the area. Local businesses were donating tons of extra food they were just going to throw away. They also smoked anyone out who asked.

I got some really good kabobs.

mario_c
11-18-11, 09:20 PM
My friend was arrested at Occupy Wall Street - she was relatively new to the protests, just a few days. A few of my Big Apple posse have been on the front lines for weeks now, the day shift (yes, they have jobs, and believe everyone who really wants one should have one too).
She got bailed after a few hours, but a few of her companions were held overnight or even for days. A nice housewife from Brooklyn. :D

Superboy
11-18-11, 11:33 PM
I love it when people respond with a wall of text to my obvious craziness. It says a lot about what they actually think.

Or: if you can't laugh it off, you're affected by it.

I don't worry about it at all. I don't like LE, partly because they murdered one of my friends, but then I think about bills like the Zadroga act, and how the Republicans, in all their wisdom, spent so much time shooting it down.

Now I just think about those municipal police and firemen who are dying from cancer and other terminal illnesses, who had to sell their homes and cars and pretty much all their material possessions so they wouldn't die, but just ended up dying slowly instead of being treated because their health insurance didn't cover them, and I think, it's wonderful that the Republicans did this, by leaving them behind when they needed help the most. Oh, and the families they're going to leave behind in poverty is just the icing on the cake.

That's why i'm voting Republican from now on, because when I think about people doing damage to this country, I think: you know what? letting 9/11 first responders die slow, painful, bankrupt deaths is probably not as bad as raising taxes.

TheBigDave
11-19-11, 03:18 AM
In the end, it's the 99% that'll be paying the bill for all this.

New York - $6,000,000
Oakland - $1,000,000
Portland - $750,000 + $100,000 damage
Seattle - $626,000
Boston - $575,000
Philadelphia - $492,000
Atlanta - $451,000
Denver - $365,000
Cincinnati - $128,000

Occupy Protests Across the Country Take Toll on City Budgets

It's unclear what the Occupy protests have accomplished, but police have received a bonanza of overtime, making up a large part of at least $10.3 million in costs incurred by nine cities since the protesters began gathering near Wall Street two months ago.

Occupy Wall Street catalyzed dozens, if not hundreds, of protests across the world. New York City alone has spent about $6 million on costs related to Occupy Wall Street, not including the eviction on Tuesday, according to Howard Wolfson, the mayor's deputy for government relations.

Philadelphia racked up $492,000 in unanticipated police overtime through last week, according to Rebecca Rhynhart, budget director. Rhynhart said the city is estimating that costs could reach $2.5 million if the protest lasts through the fiscal year, or June 30.

"It's an unanticipated expense but we're managing it," Rhynhart said. The city has a budget of $3.5 billion. "In order to pay for it, there's less money for other things."

Oakland spent over $1 million to pay police overtime, according to the Washington Post.

Portland estimated $750,000 so far for police overtime and damage related to its parks has cost $50,000 to $100,000, according to Amy Ruiz, communications director for Mayor Sam Adams.

In Seattle, protests will cost $625,999 from the week that ended in Oct. 14 to the end of Nov. 25. The largest chunk goes to overtime for Seattle police: $580,468.

The extra costs to Seattle's parks comprise $21,471 of the total and the department of finance and administrative services, which just gave protesters permission for a permit to use part of city hall's plaza on Tuesday, made up the rest at $24,060.

The Boston police department estimated overtime costs in regards to the Occupy Boston movement to be about $575,000 so far, according to Elaine Driscoll director of communications of the department.

In Atlanta, protests cost $451,691 from Oct. 7 to 25, with almost three-quarters going to overtime to police, said Mayor Kasim Reed on Nov. 2.

-----------------

Occupy Denver led to overtime for various city departments during five days of protest in October at about $365,000, said the safety manager's office, according to the Denver Post.

The protests are estimated to cost $200,000 a week for the rest of the year. This week, the police department asked for an increase of $6 million in its budget, "citing Occupy as a small but unspecified portion of the cost," the Post reported.

Cincinnati has spent about $128,000 in police overtime, according to the Cincinnati Enquirer last week.

FULL ARTICLE - http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-protests-cost-cities-millions/story?id=14975940

BearFan
11-19-11, 09:29 AM
the 99% should have no problem chipping in to cover this.

sracer
11-19-11, 09:54 AM
In the end, it's the 99% that'll be paying the bill for all this.

New York - $6,000,000
Oakland - $1,000,000
Portland - $750,000 + $100,000 damage
Seattle - $626,000
Boston - $575,000
Philadelphia - $492,000
Atlanta - $451,000
Denver - $365,000
Cincinnati - $128,000
That's a drop in the bucket compared to the tax relief incentives these municipalities offer businesses with no strings attached.

Jason
11-19-11, 10:56 AM
That's a drop in the bucket compared to the tax relief incentives these municipalities offer businesses with no strings attached.

Doesn't matter. Business leaders give political leaders big campaign contributions while all the protestors do is smell up the place and spread disease like filthy vermin.

Am I doing this right?

JumpCutz
11-19-11, 11:26 AM
Doesn't matter. Business leaders give political leaders big campaign contributions while all the protestors do is smell up the place and spread disease like filthy vermin.

Am I doing this right?

Hitting the bullseye! :thumbsup:

Tracer Bullet
11-19-11, 01:39 PM
Meanwhile, at UC Davis:

BjnR7xET7Uo

Disgusting. The police and the university administration should be ashamed of themselves. But those students are amazing.

wm lopez
11-19-11, 01:45 PM
they are fighting for your freedom
Freedom to make people's lives hard to get to their jobs.

wm lopez
11-19-11, 01:48 PM
I saw the OWS folks marching in Chicago down S Michigan near Congress last night. Quite a lot of people, and police escorting them. Perfectly peaceful except for the angry drivers stuck behind them. The only people the Tea Party made angry was the liberal media.

DVD Polizei
11-19-11, 04:34 PM
I think I'm gonna ask them if I "like" them on Facebook...will they all stop and go back home to their parents' basements and coed dorms.

wmansir
11-19-11, 05:59 PM
Meanwhile, at UC Davis:

Disgusting. The police and the university administration should be ashamed of themselves. But those students are amazing.
They were resisting arrest for trespassing and were warned to stop resisting or they would be sprayed. They got exactly what they wanted.

TheBigDave
11-19-11, 06:28 PM
Video from Occupy Hong Kong:

<object width="560" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/9f6_1321679669"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/9f6_1321679669" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" width="560" height="360"></embed></object>

rotfl

logrus9
11-19-11, 06:35 PM
Meanwhile, at UC Davis:

Disgusting. The police and the university administration should be ashamed of themselves. But those students are amazing.

What A-holes those cops are!



They had a cruiser with a steel bumper, handguns, billy clubs and they choose PEPPER SPRAY!!!!


WTF - another fine example of the wussification of America. ;)

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0909/wussification-its-preachy-by-dammit-they-pulled-this-crap-on-demotivational-poster-1253157745.jpg

Tracer Bullet
11-19-11, 07:14 PM
They were resisting arrest for trespassing and were warned to stop resisting or they would be sprayed. They got exactly what they wanted.

Yes, they were resisting arrest... by sitting there and not doing anything. And then were driven off by people doing nothing more than chanting at them. Makes you think that those police officers were perhaps not all that sure about what they were doing, or being ordered to do.

Tip for you--go search "hose" and "protesters" and see what you get. Extrapolate to the tactics seen in that video--or don't.

The lengths people will go to in order to support police brutality against non-violence is truly astonishing.

JasonF
11-19-11, 08:21 PM
I keep reading logrus's post and I just can't figure it out. Is it a parody? Performance art? Genuine psychopathy?

PopcornTreeCt
11-19-11, 11:57 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/18/lobbying-firm-occupy-wall-street_n_1102310.html

Lobbying Firm Memo To Advise Wall Street Clients On Occupy Movement

WASHINGTON -- A lobbying firm has prepared a memo offering advice to its Wall Street clients to help them manage any political fallout from Occupy Wall Street, warning that Republicans may turn on big banks, at least in public, altering the political ground for years to come. It is one of the first clear signs that the movement may be starting to trouble the moneyed elite.

The memo, first reported by MSNBC's Chris Hayes, host of the show "Up with Chris Hayes," was written by the firm Clark, Lytle, Geduldig, Cranford and addressed to one of its Wall Street clients. It runs four pages long and is set to be sent on Thanksgiving.

The first two graphs of the memo, provided by MSNBC to The Huffington Post, express angst over the idea that the movement could mean "more than just short-term discomfort for Wall Street firms" and has "the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye."

The paragraphs read in full:

Leading Democratic party strategists have begun to openly discuss the benefits of embracing the growing and increasingly organized Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement to prevent Republican gains in Congress and the White House next year. We have seen this process of adopting extreme positions and movements to increase base voter turnout, including in the 2005-2006 immigration debate. This would mean more than just short-term discomfort for Wall Street firms. If vilifying the leading companies of this sector is allowed to become an unchallenged centerpiece of a coordinated Democratic campaign, it has the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye.

It shouldn't be surprising that the Democratic party or even President Obama's re-election team would campaign against Wall Street in this cycle. However the bigger concern should be that Republicans will no longer defend Wall Street companies -- and might start running against them too.

The lobbying firm, a high-powered shop with an array of clients from across the political spectrum, declined to comment. On its website, the firm notes that it "combines sophisticated high-level strategic thinking with robust ground-level relationships established over decades with key members of Congress and their staff, Administration officials."

Joshua Stephens, who has participated in the occupy movement in New York City, says the memo worries might be misplaced or potentially obsolete. "The danger is not whether or not politicians will defend these institutions. My fear wouldn't be that," he said. "My fear would be that the politicians that come to their aid will be increasingly irrelevant...That's the real threat and that's where things are going."

---

Only going to fuel it even more.

Rockmjd23
11-20-11, 12:29 AM
They were resisting arrest for trespassing and were warned to stop resisting or they would be sprayed. They got exactly what they wanted.
Shame! Shame! Shame!

logrus9
11-20-11, 08:26 AM
I keep reading logrus's post and I just can't figure it out. Is it a parody? Performance art? Genuine psychopathy?

I understand, take a few days and work on it, I know you'll get it.

Duran
11-20-11, 02:15 PM
Meanwhile, at UC Davis:

BjnR7xET7Uo

Disgusting. The police and the university administration should be ashamed of themselves. But those students are amazing.

Why? Assuming the police were giving lawful orders to disperse, I see the use of pepper spray to be the manner in which the least force would be used. They were given ample opportunity to avoid it. What do you suggest? Just letting them stay there? It was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience without any consequences is virtually meaningless.

Venusian
11-20-11, 02:44 PM
Meanwhile, at UC Davis:

BjnR7xET7Uo

Disgusting. The police and the university administration should be ashamed of themselves. But those students are amazing.

http://news.yahoo.com/officers-pepper-spray-incident-placed-leave-182151195.html


Looks like the admin is going to take action. Good.

Superboy
11-20-11, 03:30 PM
Why? Assuming the police were giving lawful orders to disperse, I see the use of pepper spray to be the manner in which the least force would be used. They were given ample opportunity to avoid it. What do you suggest? Just letting them stay there? It was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience without any consequences is virtually meaningless.

I consider civil disobedience where the state capitulates to be a success.

JasonF
11-20-11, 03:50 PM
Why? Assuming the police were giving lawful orders to disperse, I see the use of pepper spray to be the manner in which the least force would be used. They were given ample opportunity to avoid it. What do you suggest? Just letting them stay there? It was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience without any consequences is virtually meaningless.

What I love most about libertarians is their reflexive distrust of state exercise of authority -- not just determining whether the exercise falls within the prescribed legal amework, but whether the framework itself is right to invest that authority in the state. No self-respecting libertarian would be satisfied if I walked into a debate on tax policy and said "Hey, the IRS is just collecting money at the rates set forth in the US Code, so stop arguing in favor of lower tax rates," but when it comes to pepper spraying a bunch of kids in the face because they won't leave the park, suddenly it's goodbye Road to Serfdom, hello Mein Kampf. Not that I think you're all a bunch of Nazis -- I really don't, notwithstanding the glee with which youre greeting the fact that nonviolent protectors are being greeted with violent tactics from riot-gear clad law enforcement. But any so-called libertarian who is lining up with the cops on this one will never convince me that his political philosophy is anything more than a beard for selfish narcissism.

logrus9
11-20-11, 04:23 PM
So tell us what your effective non-violent solution to moving them would have been.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 04:32 PM
Why? Assuming the police were giving lawful orders to disperse, I see the use of pepper spray to be the manner in which the least force would be used. They were given ample opportunity to avoid it. What do you suggest? Just letting them stay there? It was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience without any consequences is virtually meaningless.

Is this a joke? They're non-violent protesters. So you do what they did after they pepper-sprayed them--go in, put the cuffs on them, and haul them away. They're not going to actively resist, and you're in no physical danger from them. Pepper spraying them is brutality.

Or if you don't believe me, here's a former police officer on the subject:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2011/11/dumbass_training_and_the_uc_da033608.php

Money quote:

Some people, perhaps those who design training programs, think policing should be a hands-off job. It can’t be and shouldn’t be. And trying to make policing too hands-off means people get Tased and maced for non-compliance. It’s not right. But this is the way many police are trained. That’s a shame. (Mind you, I have no problem using such less-lethal weapons on actual physical threats, but peaceful non-compliance is different.)

...And if police need to remove these students, then the police can go in four officers to one protester and remove them. Lift them up and take them away. Maybe you need one or two more officers with a threatening baton to keep others from getting involved. It really can be that simple.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 04:33 PM
What I love most about libertarians is their reflexive distrust of state exercise of authority -- not just determining whether the exercise falls within the prescribed legal amework, but whether the framework itself is right to invest that authority in the state. No self-respecting libertarian would be satisfied if I walked into a debate on tax policy and said "Hey, the IRS is just collecting money at the rates set forth in the US Code, so stop arguing in favor of lower tax rates," but when it comes to pepper spraying a bunch of kids in the face because they won't leave the park, suddenly it's goodbye Road to Serfdom, hello Mein Kampf. Not that I think you're all a bunch of Nazis -- I really don't, notwithstanding the glee with which youre greeting the fact that nonviolent protectors are being greeted with violent tactics from riot-gear clad law enforcement. But any so-called libertarian who is lining up with the cops on this one will never convince me that his political philosophy is anything more than a beard for selfish narcissism.

:thumbsup:

Psi
11-20-11, 04:37 PM
Why? Assuming the police were giving lawful orders to disperse, I see the use of pepper spray to be the manner in which the least force would be used. They were given ample opportunity to avoid it. What do you suggest? Just letting them stay there? It was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience without any consequences is virtually meaningless.

Arrest the students, but without using pepper spray, unless and until they resist. It's a sad day when police only know how to arrest non-violent non-resisting students by using force like this.

And if the police truly believe that they were justified, they wouldn't resort to the flimsy excuse that they were encircled and felt threatened. There are consequences to joining law enforcement too, and one of them is knowing how to deal with situations like this one.

TheBigDave
11-20-11, 04:46 PM
Or if you don't believe me, here's a former police officer on the subject:

Here's another former police officer:

Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department’s use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a “compliance tool” that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.

“When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them,” Kelly said. “Bodies don’t have handles on them.”

After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of “active resistance” from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.

“What I’m looking at is fairly standard police procedure,” Kelly said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/higher-education/investigation-calls-for-resignation-follow-spread-of-calif-university-pepper-spray-video/2011/11/20/gIQAcWivdN_story.html

JasonF
11-20-11, 05:02 PM
So tell us what your effective non-violent solution to moving them would have been.

Wait a week until most of the protectors leave campus for Thanksgiving break? I'm not sure why the powers that be are so obsessed with not letting a bunch of people dissatisfied with the direction of the country congregate for a few weeks.

Actually, I know exactly why they're obsessed, but pepper spraying a bunch of college kids for refusing to leave the quad is pretty much the opposite of a smart way to deal with the situation.

JasonF
11-20-11, 05:07 PM
Arrest the students.

Why?

logrus9
11-20-11, 05:14 PM
Wait a week until most of the protectors leave campus for Thanksgiving break? I'm not sure why the powers that be are so obsessed with not letting a bunch of people dissatisfied with the direction of the country congregate for a few weeks.

Actually, I know exactly why they're obsessed, but pepper spraying a bunch of college kids for refusing to leave the quad is pretty much the opposite of a smart way to deal with the situation.

BZZZZ wrong answer, obviously not an effective measure.

When I'm speeding down the highway should I just roll down the window and tell the cop "wait until I get where I'm going and I won't be speeding anymore." ?

You're the cop in charge, it's your job to enforce the laws. Tell us an effective non-violent way to move these individuals that are breaking the law.

Psi
11-20-11, 05:19 PM
Why?

Because they are bad kids and they don't listen :lol:

You are right. I don't have a very good reason, but I don't know the situation there. Maybe they were blocking other students from classes or were threatening to other people. But just a simple arrest wouldn't bother me as much as the way the arrest was made here.

Duran
11-20-11, 05:26 PM
What I love most about libertarians is their reflexive distrust of state exercise of authority -- not just determining whether the exercise falls within the prescribed legal amework, but whether the framework itself is right to invest that authority in the state. No self-respecting libertarian would be satisfied if I walked into a debate on tax policy and said "Hey, the IRS is just collecting money at the rates set forth in the US Code, so stop arguing in favor of lower tax rates," but when it comes to pepper spraying a bunch of kids in the face because they won't leave the park, suddenly it's goodbye Road to Serfdom, hello Mein Kampf. Not that I think you're all a bunch of Nazis -- I really don't, notwithstanding the glee with which youre greeting the fact that nonviolent protectors are being greeted with violent tactics from riot-gear clad law enforcement. But any so-called libertarian who is lining up with the cops on this one will never convince me that his political philosophy is anything more than a beard for selfish narcissism.

This is absurd. If a person decided not to pay his or her taxes because he or she believes the IRS (or the laws that created it) are unjust, I could potentially, as a libertarian, understand their reasoning for doing so. I would not, however, expect them not to suffer the consequences of their action, including possible jail time. I fail to see the difference between my thoughts on your analogy versus the situation at hand.

My comment was based upon what I had read previously from law enforcement sources, one of which Big Dave posted. Basically, physically apprehending them would be more dangerous. Pepper spray strikes me as a relatively low level of force, certainly far below a baton and probably lower than taser. Given that, and the fact that they were pretty clearly warned, leads me to side with the cops, assuming that they were giving a lawful order to disperse. I don't know the full context of how everyone arrived at the situation in the video.

TheBigDave
11-20-11, 05:39 PM
And if the police truly believe that they were justified, they wouldn't resort to the flimsy excuse that they were encircled and felt threatened. There are consequences to joining law enforcement too, and one of them is knowing how to deal with situations like this one.

Here's another video, a bit longer from a different angle. It looks to me like a group of about a dozen police are surrounded by 200+ protesters. Around 6:30, another group of cops arrive and pushes the standing protesters aside. Then they spray the sitting protesters, to clear the sidewalk so the first group of police can leave.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z6GMmpgrAlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JasonF
11-20-11, 05:45 PM
You "don't know the full context of how everyone arrived at the situation" but you're going to assume it was absolutely imperative to clear a bunch of kids off the campus quad, to the point where pepper spray needed to be used?

Superboy
11-20-11, 05:51 PM
It's not as if these kids have a constitutional right to peaceful protest.

Psi
11-20-11, 05:57 PM
Here's another video, a bit longer from a different angle. It looks to me like a group of about a dozen police are surrounded by 200+ protesters. Around 6:30, another group of cops arrive and pushes the standing protesters aside. Then they spray the sitting protesters, to clear the sidewalk so the first group of police can leave.


You are right. Those are scary kids, even scarier because they just sit there. Our police are more used to sitting behind desks or writing traffic tickets.

wmansir
11-20-11, 06:05 PM
It's not as if these kids have a constitutional right to peaceful protest.
Where does the constitution grant the right to trespass?

Ky-Fi
11-20-11, 06:06 PM
Interesting----here's Ayn Rand's take on civil disbobedience:


Civil Disobedience

Civil disobedience may be justifiable, in some cases, when and if an individual disobeys a law in order to bring an issue to court, as a test case. Such an action involves respect for legality and a protest directed only at a particular law which the individual seeks an opportunity to prove to be unjust. The same is true of a group of individuals when and if the risks involved are their own.

But there is no justification, in a civilized society, for the kind of mass civil disobedience that involves the violation of the rights of others—regardless of whether the demonstrators’ goal is good or evil. The end does not justify the means. No one’s rights can be secured by the violation of the rights of others. Mass disobedience is an assault on the concept of rights: it is a mob’s defiance of legality as such.

The forcible occupation of another man’s property or the obstruction of a public thoroughfare is so blatant a violation of rights that an attempt to justify it becomes an abrogation of morality. An individual has no right to do a “sit-in” in the home or office of a person he disagrees with—and he does not acquire such a right by joining a gang. Rights are not a matter of numbers—and there can be no such thing, in law or in morality, as actions forbidden to an individual, but permitted to a mob.

The only power of a mob, as against an individual, is greater muscular strength—i.e., plain, brute physical force. The attempt to solve social problems by means of physical force is what a civilized society is established to prevent. The advocates of mass civil disobedience admit that their purpose is intimidation. A society that tolerates intimidation as a means of settling disputes—the physical intimidation of some men or groups by others—loses its moral right to exist as a social system, and its collapse does not take long to follow.

Politically, mass civil disobedience is appropriate only as a prelude to civil war—as the declaration of a total break with a country’s political institutions.


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/civil_disobedience.html

logrus9
11-20-11, 06:14 PM
but you're going to assume it was absolutely imperative to clear a bunch of kids off the campus quad, to the point where pepper spray needed to be used?

No, let's allow the protestors control the situation and decide which laws and when they'll abide by them. Let the inmates run the asylum.

Duran
11-20-11, 06:25 PM
You "don't know the full context of how everyone arrived at the situation" but you're going to assume it was absolutely imperative to clear a bunch of kids off the campus quad, to the point where pepper spray needed to be used?

And you assume the opposite. We're both making assumptions. Mine were clearly stated.

Superboy
11-20-11, 06:44 PM
Where does the constitution grant the right to trespass?

Exactly. These students were a danger to society and property. If they have a grievance, they should kindly write their congressman.

Superboy
11-20-11, 06:47 PM
No, let's allow the protestors control the situation and decide which laws and when they'll abide by them. Let the inmates run the asylum.

I know it's starting to look like we live in a police state, but you don't have to rub it in :mad:

Jason
11-20-11, 06:50 PM
No, let's allow the protestors control the situation and decide which laws and when they'll abide by them. Let the inmates run the asylum.

Well, the banks have been writing banking law for years...

TheBigDave
11-20-11, 06:51 PM
I wonder how all those Tea Partiers were able to protest without getting pepper sprayed and arrested?

JasonF
11-20-11, 06:59 PM
And you assume the opposite. We're both making assumptions. Mine were clearly stated.

To the contrary, I'm making no assumptions, other than the assumption that there should be a high bar before the police pepper spray people who are not actively engaging in violence. I'm simply asking what facts lead people to believe that bar has been met here, because I just don't see it.

X
11-20-11, 07:15 PM
To the contrary, I'm making no assumptions, other than the assumption that there should be a high bar before the police pepper spray people who are not actively engaging in violence. I'm simply asking what facts lead people to believe that bar has been met here, because I just don't see it.I'm just curious... What would you do if a group of people decided they didn't like you for whatever reason and just sat on your doorstep(s) so you couldn't freely go in and out of your home?

JasonF
11-20-11, 07:21 PM
I'm just curious... What would you do if a group of people decided they didn't like you for whatever reason and just sat on your doorstep(s) so you couldn't freely go in and out of your home?

Do you not see a difference between a private home and a place of business, let alone a public park or a university quad? Let's not pretend these kids were pepper-sprayed while squatting in the dean's front yard.

X
11-20-11, 07:32 PM
Do you not see a difference between a private home and a place of business, let alone a public park or a university quad? Let's not pretend these kids were pepper-sprayed while squatting in the dean's front yard.Well, according to my son who goes to UC Davis, the squatters were blocking the path the cops needed to use to remove the tent city that had gone up on campus. So it wasn't exactly like they just picked some open spot and sat down. They were blocking the egress of people who were authorized to do what they were doing.

fourwalker
11-20-11, 07:45 PM
I tend to be on the side of law and order, but I am kind of surprised the cops did not jump on a bullhorn and announce a couple of times that they were going to have to take harsher measures if they were not allowed to move. Just going up to one of the kids and asking him meekly to move not surprisingly did not work, and also allows the screaming protester to hand out his own spin on things "he said he was going to shoot me if I didn't move!"....... and like a lot of people, I agree that these guys did not look like they were in any immediate trouble from all the granola eaters surrounding them.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 07:52 PM
Here's another former police officer:

The point of what I posted, of course, is that "police procedure" is wrong in this case. And the idea that getting 3 or 4 police officers to pick up one person who is limp will cause the limp person to get injured is absurd.

JasonF
11-20-11, 07:59 PM
A couple of pictures I saw on Facebook. I could put them in the political cartoon thread, but since they're on topic here, we'll stick them in this thread:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/379819_10150408346403844_827558843_8362417_316162363_n.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/308983_288370641203537_262356017138333_891886_280602482_n.jpg

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 08:01 PM
Yeah but see, these protesters have a point. And that point owns the government.

wmansir
11-20-11, 08:04 PM
The point of what I posted, of course, is that "police procedure" is wrong in this case. And the idea that getting 3 or 4 police officers to pick up one person who is limp will cause the limp person to get injured is absurd.
These people weren't going limp. They were locking arms and actively resisting arrest.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 08:07 PM
These people weren't going limp. They were locking arms and actively resisting arrest.

Oh, well, that changes everything. The police should have fucking shot them.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 08:09 PM
But seriously, locking arms, going limp, whatever the fuck they're doing... there are ways to get in there and remove them one by one without dousing them with a chemical agent.

And let's not forget... after all was said and done, the police didn't even succeed. So... what exactly was the point of that? Aside from brutality and terrorizing bystanders?

I suppose no one has pointed out that our lovely fuckhead cop there was also spraying it down peoples' throats? What possible justification could there be for that? Really, give it a shot. I'd love to hear it.

sracer
11-20-11, 08:36 PM
I wonder how all those Tea Partiers were able to protest without getting pepper sprayed and arrested?

You honestly don't know?! Really?

The tea partiers only protested for 3 hour stretches on the weekend. OWS has been protesting for MONTHS straight. The probability of that happening (pepper sprayed and arrested) in months of protesting is much much greater.

Besides it is much tougher to justify pepper-spraying people using walkers and sitting in folding lawn chairs.

X
11-20-11, 08:42 PM
But seriously, locking arms, going limp, whatever the fuck they're doing... there are ways to get in there and remove them one by one without dousing them with a chemical agent.How, like starting a rumor that Domino's is giving out free pizzas or there's two-for-one burritos at Chipotle?

Sean O'Hara
11-20-11, 08:57 PM
What I love most about libertarians is their reflexive distrust of state exercise of authority -- not just determining whether the exercise falls within the prescribed legal amework, but whether the framework itself is right to invest that authority in the state. No self-respecting libertarian would be satisfied if I walked into a debate on tax policy and said "Hey, the IRS is just collecting money at the rates set forth in the US Code, so stop arguing in favor of lower tax rates," but when it comes to pepper spraying a bunch of kids in the face because they won't leave the park, suddenly it's goodbye Road to Serfdom, hello Mein Kampf. Not that I think you're all a bunch of Nazis -- I really don't, notwithstanding the glee with which youre greeting the fact that nonviolent protectors are being greeted with violent tactics from riot-gear clad law enforcement. But any so-called libertarian who is lining up with the cops on this one will never convince me that his political philosophy is anything more than a beard for selfish narcissism.

What I love about liberals is their willingness to take one voice from the opposing side and argue that everyone on that side believes the same way.

I'm a libertarian and I hate hippies, but I hate police brutality more -- and before any of the usual suspects crop up to tell me that pepperspray isn't brutal, shut up -- if it inflicts pain upon someone, it's brutal, even if it doesn't leave a bruise.

You may proceed with your generalizations now, JasonF.

wmansir
11-20-11, 09:08 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/379819_10150408346403844_827558843_8362417_316162363_n.jpg
As repulsive as the Westboro protesters are they conduct their protests within the law. They coordinate with police when possible, obey police orders and don't resist when arrested, even though it is usually on trumped up charges that are dropped or overturned. Furthermore, they settle their disputes in court, not by mob rule.

JasonF
11-20-11, 09:09 PM
What I love about liberals is their willingness to take one voice from the opposing side and argue that everyone on that side believes the same way.

I'm a libertarian and I hate hippies, but I hate police brutality more -- and before any of the usual suspects crop up to tell me that pepperspray isn't brutal, shut up -- if it inflicts pain upon someone, it's brutal, even if it doesn't leave a bruise.

You may proceed with your generalizations now, JasonF.

I wish more libertarians like you would speak up. But I think you're mistaken if you think I'm taking one voice from the libertarians and arguing that every libertarian acts that way. What I said was that "What I love most about libertarians is their reflexive distrust of state exercise of authority" and that's true. I don't always think that distrust is warranted, and I think libertarians are sometimes too slow to accept that an exercise of authority is appropriate, but I appreciate that libertarians put the government to the test. At least, they do when they are acting like real libertarians (which your post certainly suggests is what you're doing). On the other hand, I also stand by the other thing I said: "Any so-called libertarian who is lining up with the cops on this one will never convince me that his political philosophy is anything more than a beard for selfish narcissism." That's not you, so I believe you when you say you're a libertarian.

So here, we have a thread where at least one (Duran) and maybe others (I'm not sure if logrus or TheBigDave consider themselves libertarians) were coming out strongly in favor of the cops and I found it wholly inconsistent with what I would expect from a libertarian. I'm glad other libertarians -- like you, and like Superboy (I think he considers himself a libertarian) -- are speaking out against authoritarian behavior.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 09:17 PM
Radley Balko, former employee of the Cato Institute who now runs a fairly popular blog, also strongly disagrees with the police actions at UC Davis, for what that's worth.

http://www.theagitator.com/2011/11/19/pepper-spray-at-uc-davis/

TheBigDave
11-20-11, 09:33 PM
So here, we have a thread where at least one (Duran) and maybe others (I'm not sure if logrus or TheBigDave consider themselves libertarians) were coming out strongly in favor of the cops.

I didn't say I was strongly in favor of what happened. I posted a video and news article to refute some claims that were made. But I think the pepper spray was heavy handed and unneeded. The police probably could have resolved the situation by taking their time and arresting each of the protesters. The spray should be reserved for more aggressive incidents.

That being said, I think the protesters were provoking the police and got the response they wanted. So they don't get any sympathy from me.

logrus9
11-20-11, 09:52 PM
No I don't consider myself a Libertarian, I have different views depending on the topic.

Where I think you and others are wrong is the active resistance, if they just sat there and were pepper sprayed, I'd agree with you, but they didn't, they locked arms and resisted.

In several posts you haven't come up with an effective non-violent alternative you would have used so I guess you don't have one. Someone suggested pulling them apart and carrying them off - seriously? that seems safer and less violent? The reality seems to be that nothing besides walking away would be acceptable because you believe in the "cause".

The "people in your yard" is a good example, the laws for trespass etc apply. Would you want the police to tell you to wait until they leave for Thanksgiving?

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 10:00 PM
In several posts you haven't come up with an effective non-violent alternative you would have used so I guess you don't have one. Someone suggested pulling them apart and carrying them off - seriously? that seems safer and less violent?

Yes.

You are wrong. There is simply no more to be said.

logrus9
11-20-11, 10:13 PM
No, you simply have no argument. If they had been pulled apart you would be here yelling brutality just as strongly.

Who told you that actions don't have consequences?

I'm going to defy the police and resist arrest, but nothing should happen to me because I really really think I'm right.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 10:19 PM
No, you simply have no argument. If they had been pulled apart you would be here yelling brutality just as strongly.

Wait. I have no argument, even though I have consistently articulated one, and yet you have one because you are... what, making up what I would say? :lol:

logrus9
11-20-11, 10:23 PM
Yes.

You are wrong. There is simply no more to be said.

Since I had just articulated my point and you made that post it seemed obvious you had no argument left. I just thought you were admitting it.

Tracer Bullet
11-20-11, 10:33 PM
Since I had just articulated my point and you made that post it seemed obvious you had no argument left. I just thought you were admitting it.

I'm not really sure what response there could be to someone whose idea of argument is to stick their fingers in their ears and yell "it's not brutality" over and over. At some point you have to shrug and walk away.

logrus9
11-20-11, 10:43 PM
:jawdrop: I had just said if they hadn't resisted I would have agreed that it was brutality.

I pointed out specific reasons and this is the best reply you can come up with. -ohbfrank-

If there is anyone with fingers in their ears it's you.

Psi
11-20-11, 11:01 PM
Have our police gotten so soft that they know no other way to arrest unarmed students who just sit there locking their arms together?

Sean O'Hara
11-20-11, 11:44 PM
No, you simply have no argument. If they had been pulled apart you would be here yelling brutality just as strongly.

Strawman.


I'm going to defy the police and resist arrest, but nothing should happen to me because I really really think I'm right.

So there's no such thing as proportionality in your world? Passively not obeying an order warrants an assault as assuredly as active resistance? Yeah, sorry, but no.Here in the land of loony libertarians we believe that the police only get to resort to force when confronted with force.

Where I think you and others are wrong is the active resistance, if they just sat there and were pepper sprayed, I'd agree with you, but they didn't, they locked arms and resisted.

If that's your standard for resistance, you should head up to Canada and leave the US for real men.

The "people in your yard" is a good example, the laws for trespass etc apply. Would you want the police to tell you to wait until they leave for Thanksgiving?

A great analogy as long as you ignore the part about the students being in a public space at a public university that they're paying to attend.

Sean O'Hara
11-20-11, 11:54 PM
I wish more libertarians like you would speak up.

I'd bet money that Reason will have at least one article blasting the police in the next issue. The UC Davis incident only got a passing mention on their blog on Friday (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/18/sit-on-a-sidewalk-get-pepper-sprayed), but the veteran who got beat up in Oakland received a more detailed write-up (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/19/more-nasty-video-from-occupy-oakland).

grundle
11-21-11, 12:28 AM
Interesting----here's Ayn Rand's take on civil disbobedience:


Civil Disobedience

Civil disobedience may be justifiable, in some cases, when and if an individual disobeys a law in order to bring an issue to court, as a test case. Such an action involves respect for legality and a protest directed only at a particular law which the individual seeks an opportunity to prove to be unjust. The same is true of a group of individuals when and if the risks involved are their own.

But there is no justification, in a civilized society, for the kind of mass civil disobedience that involves the violation of the rights of others—regardless of whether the demonstrators’ goal is good or evil. The end does not justify the means. No one’s rights can be secured by the violation of the rights of others. Mass disobedience is an assault on the concept of rights: it is a mob’s defiance of legality as such.

The forcible occupation of another man’s property or the obstruction of a public thoroughfare is so blatant a violation of rights that an attempt to justify it becomes an abrogation of morality. An individual has no right to do a “sit-in” in the home or office of a person he disagrees with—and he does not acquire such a right by joining a gang. Rights are not a matter of numbers—and there can be no such thing, in law or in morality, as actions forbidden to an individual, but permitted to a mob.

The only power of a mob, as against an individual, is greater muscular strength—i.e., plain, brute physical force. The attempt to solve social problems by means of physical force is what a civilized society is established to prevent. The advocates of mass civil disobedience admit that their purpose is intimidation. A society that tolerates intimidation as a means of settling disputes—the physical intimidation of some men or groups by others—loses its moral right to exist as a social system, and its collapse does not take long to follow.

Politically, mass civil disobedience is appropriate only as a prelude to civil war—as the declaration of a total break with a country’s political institutions.


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/civil_disobedience.html


I agree.

grundle
11-21-11, 12:31 AM
Here's another video, a bit longer from a different angle. It looks to me like a group of about a dozen police are surrounded by 200+ protesters. Around 6:30, another group of cops arrive and pushes the standing protesters aside. Then they spray the sitting protesters, to clear the sidewalk so the first group of police can leave.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z6GMmpgrAlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It says "This video is private."

If protestors do surround police and prevent them from leaving, that's unlawful imprisonment, and the police are justified in using pepper spray.

grundle
11-21-11, 12:32 AM
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=33789

Hazmat Crew Called in to Remove 200 pounds of Human Feces Near Occupy Santa Cruz

November 19, 2011

the discovery of an estimated 200 pounds of human feces near the county Veterans Memorial Building, just across the Water Street bridge from the camp.

Who would dump feces on a Veterans building? It didn’t make sense to me. But the story isn’t that specific. It says “near” the building. Guess what happens to be near the Veterans building:

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2011/11/Occupy-Santa-Cruz1.jpg

TheBigDave
11-21-11, 05:21 AM
London is also having problems with defecating and urinating protesters.

Desecration, defecation and drugs: The filthy conditions of the St Paul's protest camp

The St Paul’s Cathedral protest camp has become littered with human waste and graffiti, while alcohol and drug use are rife, according to legal documents filed by the City of London.

------------------

(St Paul’s Nicholas) Cottam wrote: ‘Desecration: graffiti have been scratched and painted on to the great west doors of the cathedral, the chapter house door and most notably a sacrilegious message painted on the restored pillars of the west portico.

‘Human defecation has occurred in the west portico entrance and inside the cathedral on several occasions.’

He also made reference to noisy interruptions during services, foul language directed at staff and the use of alcohol and ‘other stimulants’ that appeared to ‘fuel the noise levels day and night.’

Mr Cottam revealed more than half of schools scheduled to visit the cathedral had cancelled since the occupation began on October 15. Drop-in visitor numbers were also down by half.

-------------------

Another activist admitted there had been problems with protestors urinating on each other’s tents, and called for a ban on drink and drugs, telling the group: ‘Recreational drinking isn’t something we should passionately support — this is a movement trying to overthrow capitalism,’ she said, adding that anyone wanting to have a drink or 'do a few lines’ (presumably of cocaine) could go off-site.

FULL ARTICLE - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064174/Desecration-defecation-drugs-St-Paul-s-reveals-filthy-conditions-protest-camp-amid-eviction-bid.html

logrus9
11-21-11, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus9 View Post
No, you simply have no argument. If they had been pulled apart you would be here yelling brutality just as strongly.

Strawman. - based on posting history it's an obvious conclusion

Quote:
I'm going to defy the police and resist arrest, but nothing should happen to me because I really really think I'm right.
So there's no such thing as proportionality in your world? Passively not obeying an order warrants an assault as assuredly as active resistance? Yeah, sorry, but no.Here in the land of loony libertarians we believe that the police only get to resort to force when confronted with force.

That's your own strawman, I posted that passive resistance should not be met with pepper spray. Active resistance gets active arrest procedures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus9 View Post
Where I think you and others are wrong is the active resistance, if they just sat there and were pepper sprayed, I'd agree with you, but they didn't, they locked arms and resisted.
If that's your standard for resistance, you should head up to Canada and leave the US for real men.

Or - if you want to live in the US, learn the laws and follow them or be prepared to face legal consequences. Quit flexing your internet muscles, it makes you look silly. :)

Quote:
The "people in your yard" is a good example, the laws for trespass etc apply. Would you want the police to tell you to wait until they leave for Thanksgiving?
A great analogy as long as you ignore the part about the students being in a public space at a public university that they're paying to attend.

No, a public place is not under the control of the masses, the laws still apply. Are you really saying that you believe you can do anything you want on public land? Trespass laws apply to public land also, as in the yard example. Whoever is in charge of the public land can set rules for it's use. You pay to attend the university, it does not grant you property rights.

JasonF
11-21-11, 07:46 AM
I'd bet money that Reason will have at least one article blasting the police in the next issue. The UC Davis incident only got a passing mention on their blog on Friday (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/18/sit-on-a-sidewalk-get-pepper-sprayed), but the veteran who got beat up in Oakland received a more detailed write-up (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/19/more-nasty-video-from-occupy-oakland).

Reason is historically pretty good on police issues. I think they were slacking of late, but the police reaction to OWS is bringing back the old Reason. Someone mentioned Balko up-thread and he's been a constant voice against an overwhelming police state. So there are definitely libertarian voices out there who are not confining their libertarian analysis to tax rates and Clean Air Act enforcement, and I do appreciate that.

JasonF
11-21-11, 08:24 AM
Interview with a pepper-sprayed UC Davis student

By Xeni Jardin at 1:58 am Sunday, Nov 20

22-year-old UC Davis student W. (name withheld by request) was one of the students pepper-sprayed at point-blank range Friday by Lt. John Pike while seated on the ground, arms linked and silent.

W. tells Boing Boing that Pike sprayed them at close range with military-grade pepper spray, in a punitive manner. Pike knew the students by name from Thursday night when they "occupied" a campus plaza. The students offered Pike food and coffee and chatted with him and other officers while setting up tents. On Friday, UC Davis chancellor Linda Katehi told students they had to remove their #OWS tents for unspecified "health and safety" reasons.

"Move or we're going to shoot you," Pike is reported to have yelled at one student right before delivering pepper spray. Then, turning to his fellow officers and brandishing the can in the air, "Don't worry, I'm going to spray these kids down."

XJ: So, we see in the videos and photos that you were one of the students pepper-sprayed by Lieutenant John Pike yesterday. How are you doing today?

W: I still have a burning sensation in my throat, lips and nose, especially when I start coughing, or when I'm lying in bed. Everyone who got sprayed has sustained effects like this.

XJ: Can you tell us how it happened, from where you were sitting?

W: I'd pulled my beanie hat over my eyes, to protect my eyes. I received a lot of pepper spray in my throat. I vomited twice, right away, then spent the next hour or two dry heaving. Someone said they saw him spray down my throat intentionally, but I was so freaked out, and I was blinded by my hat, so I can't verify. I did get a large quantity of pepper spray in my lungs.

Another girl near me who has asthma had an attack triggered by the pepper spray, and she was taken to the hospital.

He used military grade pepper spray on us. It's supposed to be used at a minimum of 15 feet. But he sprayed us at point blank range. Another student, 20 years old, who was sprayed and then arrested—instead of receiving medical care for the pepper spray exposure, he was made to wait in the back of a police car. His hands were sprayed, and he had intense burning in his hands throughout the evening while he was being held. He asked a police officer what they could do to stop it, and they refused to give any advice.

XJ: Take us back to what led up to that moment. Friday's protest wasn't an isolated expression, or the beginning of the Occupy Wall Street movement on the university campus, right?

W: We'd been protesting at UC Davis for the last week. On Tuesday there was a rally organized by some faculty members in response to the brutality on the UC Berkeley campus, and in response to the proposed 81% tuition hike.

One of the reasons I am involved with #OWS, and advocating for an occupy movement on the UC campus, is to fight privatization and austerity in the UC system, and fight rising tuition costs. I think that citizens have the right to get an education regardless of economic condition. Most people are not going to get a job where they can afford to pay off student loans. But to exclude people from knowledge is unconscionable.

The #OWS movement is global, but it's expressed locally in ways that are relevant to each city. People who are in NYC go to Wall Street. Oakland takes the port. At Davis, we have a university.

So the Tuesday protest was one of the biggest rallies on the campus since tuition hikes in 2009. That protest ended with a march around the campus, which led us to the administrative building. Sort of spontaneously, we all decided to occupy an area on the grounds and we stayed the night. The administration allowed it. I had a wonderful conversation with Lieutenant Pike that night. I dialogued with him for a while. He was cordial to me. He knew me by name. We offered him coffee and food.

We have a food collective, and we are organizing to feed the occupiers with food we grow at the student farm. It was all really lovely.

On Wednesday there was the big protest in San Francisco, and striking at the UC regents meeting over the proposed 81% tuition increase next year. The regents actually canceled their meeting because they knew we were coming, and they have since decided to do it by teleconference next Monday so we can't disrupt them.

UC Davis police cleared out the 15 or so protesters who remained in Mrak Hall while the rest of the occupiers had left for the demonstration in San Francisco.

We had another rally on Thursday, with a big General Assembly. We decided to have an occupation against the injustices we were facing, and on Thursday night there were 35 tents set up, with more planning on coming.

It was beautiful. We we had food, we sang songs, students were tutoring other students. We were talking about important issues, dialoguing over issues affecting our campus.

Chancellor Katehi agreed to let us waive the "no camping on campus" policy that night, and allowed us to stay there.

That same night, we went to the associated students of UC Davis student government meeting on campus, and we asked them for a resolution for peaceful protest without police intervention. We wrote it, they passed it, and we now had the support of the student body to have this protest, which was great.

The next morning we woke up, made breakfast, and had a lovely morning.

Pretty early on, before noon we got a letter from chancellor Katehi to please remove our tents, citing health and safety reasons, but not saying what those reasons are.

We took the letter, and replied more or less: look, we understand we're in violation of the camping code. But we believe that this is superseded by our first amendment rights.

On Friday, they delivered another letter: at 3pm your tents will be taken down. This letter was not signed, it was just one paragraph in a big ugly font. Not on letterhead.

"We are demanding you remove these tents by 3pm," it read, "You need to move to another area on the campus so we can remove these tents, and if you do not comply you will be arrested."

We talked amongst ourselves, and decided that we were going to stay. We spent the next few hours talking about tactics so our tents wouldn't get stolen. Maybe we'd go to the Occupy City of Davis camp, and just keep migrating so they couldn't take us down.

And then, at around 330pm Friday, riot police. A lot of them showed up. We saw them and put our tents in the middle of the area. We'd been keeping the paths clear keeping space immaculately clean, feeding everyone who was hungry who came by... we tried to talk to the campus groundskeepers and tell them that we understood they need to do their job. We offered to move our tents so they could water the lawn. We wanted not to disrupt unnecessarily.

When the riot police came, we put our tents in a circle. We walked around in a circle, and said nothing hateful towards the police. Maybe one guy chanted, "Fuck the police" a few times, but it died down right away. None of us wanted to chant against the police.

And then the police officers rushed in.

We were chanting so loud we couldn't hear any order to disperse. And with no warning, moving incredibly violently, they seized a few students.

They handcuffed the students so tightly. One kid, later on they were unable to cut off his ties, they'd been tied so tight. One of the other students couldn't feel his hands they were so purple, his circulation was cut off so badly for so long. He took himself to the hospital after he was released from the zip-tie restraints. They told him he had nerve damage and not to expect to be able to feel his hands for the next week. He has to come back next week to see if there was permanent nerve damage in his wrists.

We came back to the area after that round of arrests. That's when the recording for most of the video you see on the internet was started.

We yelled, "clear these tents," we didn't want them to take our tents. Aside from refusing the order to disperse, the only rule we were breaking was camping on campus. But since we had the first night waived by Chancellor Katehi, we really hadn't even broken university policy, she waived the code.

So, everyone removed the tents, and they were in the process of arresting more people. A collective decision was made on the fly to just sit in a circle arms linked legs crossed, with police officers and "prisoners" in the middle because we didn't want them arresting only 3 of us. It wasn't fair that 50 of us were there, and only a few arrested who hadn't volunteered to be arrested. There was still one walkway open that the police were going to use to walk the arrestees out. I saw some friends of mine sit down there, and they were my friends, so I joined them. We linked arms, legs crossed.

We were never warned that we were going to be pepper-sprayed.

Lt. Pike walked up to my friend, and I am told that he said, "Move or we're going to shoot you."

Then he went back and talked to a few of his police officer friends. A couple of other officers started to remove people who were sitting there, blocking exit. Pike could have easily removed us, just picked us up and removed us. We were just sitting there, nonviolent civil disobedience.

But Pike turned around and I am told that he said to the other officers, "Don't worry about it, I'm going to spray these kids down."

He lifts the can, spins it around in a circle to show it off to everybody.

Then he sprays us three times.

As if one time of being sprayed at point blank wasn't enough.

I was on the end of the line getting direct spray. When the second pass came, I got up crawling. I crawled away and vomited on a tree. I was yelling. It burned. Within a few minutes I was dry heaving, I couldn't breathe. Then, over the course of the next hour, I was dry heaving and vomiting.

More people were arrested, then. One other person told me he was pepper sprayed while he was on the ground subdued. They tried to go up his shirt, because he'd pulled his shirt over his face to protect himself. So they aimed it up his shirt to spray him, to make sure he got it.

XJ: Chancellor Katehi finally gave a press conference tonight about that incident.

W: I was the first one there. I went right up to her and introduced myself. "I'm an undergrad here. I'm a victim of police brutality," I told her. "The police sprayed pepper spray down my throat. I do not feel you have done your job protecting me on your campus. I hold you personally responsible for inflicting pain on me."

XJ: What do you want from Katehi, and the UC system?

W: I can't speak on behalf of the movement, I can only speak on behalf of myself. But I personally request that Chancellor Katehi and Lt. John Pike resign. We have a petition out there already. I request that a mechanism be set up for the impeachment of chancellors, and a system for democratic election of our chancellors. There is no good reason why students and faculty don't make that decision. Even when a chancellor makes a decision likes this, they feel safe, because they've been appointed by the regents, and the goal of the regents is to make more money. They sit on the boards of big institutions like Bank of America, they are the richest of the 1%, and they're using this institution to fatten their pockets and they're putting students into debt to do that.

There will be a large rally on Monday at UC Davis, and I invited her to take part in our GA, if she's willing to speak to us on our terms and operate on consensus method with no power dynamics.

She made a promise right there, on video, to come to our meeting.

I think she has done a terrible misdeed and that she and Pike should resign immediately so we can figure out a better way to run this institution.

XJ: Any final thoughts you'd like to share with the world about what this day meant to you?

W: I would like to note the beautiful way that the protest ended. My adrenaline was raging but in between hacking coughs I raised my fist in solidarity with the students peacefully chanting the officers off of the quad. Even in the face of brutality we remained assertively passive. I have no doubt that the world community will come to our aid so that this inclusive movement can not be defeated.

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html

Lots of pictures at the link.

Tracer Bullet
11-21-11, 08:32 AM
Reason is historically pretty good on police issues. I think they were slacking of late, but the police reaction to OWS is bringing back the old Reason. Someone mentioned Balko up-thread and he's been a constant voice against an overwhelming police state. So there are definitely libertarian voices out there who are not confining their libertarian analysis to tax rates and Clean Air Act enforcement, and I do appreciate that.

Why am I constantly being referred to as "someone" nowadays?

Venusian
11-21-11, 08:36 AM
The kids shouldn't have been pepper sprayed but they weren't innocent like that kid tries to come across in that interview "It was all beautiful"

JasonF
11-21-11, 09:01 AM
Did someone make a post between mine and Venusian's?

Also, Venusian -- what do you mean by "they weren't innocent?"

wishbone
11-21-11, 09:02 AM
The kids shouldn't have been pepper sprayed but they weren't innocent like that kid tries to come across in that interview "It was all beautiful" It wasn't fair that 50 of us were there, and only a few arrested who hadn't volunteered to be arrested. There was still one walkway open that the police were going to use to walk the arrestees out. I saw some friends of mine sit down there, and they were my friends, so I joined them. We linked arms, legs crossed.They should not have been pepper sprayed but they did obstruct the police.

The article stated that the pepper spray was mil-grade -- has this been corroborated outside of this UC Davis student's account?

covenant
11-21-11, 09:18 AM
The article stated that the pepper spray was mil-grade

:lol:

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 09:23 AM
Strawman. - based on posting history it's an obvious conclusion

No, it's your characterization based upon speculation.

That's your own strawman, I posted that passive resistance should not be met with pepper spray. Active resistance gets active arrest procedures.

And you're using "active" in a manner contrary to common sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the police use such a definition as it gives them more opportunity to swing their dicks around, although considering the officer involved has been suspended pending investigation I have my doubts that it's UCD's policy.



No, a public place is not under the control of the masses, the laws still apply. Are you really saying that you believe you can do anything you want on public land? Trespass laws apply to public land also, as in the yard example. Whoever is in charge of the public land can set rules for it's use. You pay to attend the university, it does not grant you property rights.

Yes, we know, these students were aggressively sitting on a quad -- something that never happens on any other college campus anywhere. How dare they, those scofflaws!

Venusian
11-21-11, 09:47 AM
Also, Venusian -- what do you mean by "they weren't innocent?"
They knew what they were doing was wrong. They have to deal with the consequences. The ones given were just too severe for they should have been

wmansir
11-21-11, 09:47 AM
And you're using "active" in a manner contrary to common sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the police use such a definition as it gives them more opportunity to swing their dicks around, although considering the officer involved has been suspended pending investigation I have my doubts that it's UCD's policy.

Passive resistance is an age old protest technique used to slow down your removal from a protest once you have been arrested. To some people it's an ideological statement about not co-operating with the authorities. Essentially you simply relax your muscles so that you go limp. ...

Be aware of the difference between passively and actively resisting arrest. If you flail your arms and try to wriggle away or try to release their grip on you, you may face a charge of 'obstructing a police officer in the execution of their duty'.
http://occupywallst.org/media/pdf/practicalprotest.pdf

JasonF
11-21-11, 09:49 AM
They knew what they were doing was wrong. They have to deal with the consequences. The ones given were just too severe for they should have been

I would say that what they were doing was contrary to what the university administration wanted them to do. I'm not sure that's a synonym for "wrong."

Venusian
11-21-11, 09:57 AM
I would say that what they were doing was contrary to what the university administration wanted them to do. I'm not sure that's a synonym for "wrong."

Sorry, maybe illegal would have been a better word to use.

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 10:17 AM
http://occupywallst.org/media/pdf/practicalprotest.pdf

Look at how actively these guys are resisting:

http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/ready-to-spray-lineup1.jpg
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/looking-up.jpg
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pike-pepper-spraying-line.jpg

Clearly the police had no choice -- if they hadn't used pepperspray, they might've been severely injured by flailing dreadlocks!

BearFan
11-21-11, 11:38 AM
The video certainly makes the police look bad and makes the students look like victims. They should have cuffed them and moved them out instead of this.

covenant
11-21-11, 12:20 PM
That looks like a can of First Defense MK9 10 Percent Pepper Spray (12 oz). As Low As $55.99! and yes, it's not military grade.
Linking arms with each other is actively resisting. Passive resistance would involve just being a "blob of humanity" (dead weight), neither resisting nor assisting the police in removing you.

where does pepper spray fall in their force continuum? Now days Depts would rather you use chemical agents before going hands-on to reduce injury to officers and suspects.
ie:
1) Physical presence

2) Verbalization

3) Less than physical force (neutralizing agents)

4) Physical contact

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 12:35 PM
Oh, well, if it's not military grade pepper spray, it's okay to attack people with it. I mean, as long as the pain inflicted is within reasonable standards, there's nothing wrong with the police using it on non-violent offenders.

Rival11
11-21-11, 12:59 PM
Well, if they were preventing the police from leaving....they are not allowed to do that. But even still, pepper spray was clearly not needed in this case - just cuff them like the rest of the protesters if they fail to unjoin hands when you go to break them apart, use a little bit of force to pull them away, if they continue to be resistant use a tad more or get another officer to help you, if the protesters start getting a little aggressive.....then go ahead and use the pepper spray.

covenant
11-21-11, 01:35 PM
That's just it, many administrations would rather you spray before you "use force to pull them away". Pepper spray (as it's used now) is used for both the aggressive and the merely uncooperative.

Venusian
11-21-11, 01:52 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/ows-getting-under-tea-partys-skin-211544540.html

Interesting. The group that is more anti-government actually goes by the laws. The group that wants more government action is disobeying them

joeblow69
11-21-11, 02:03 PM
Well, if they were preventing the police from leaving....they are not allowed to do that.
They clearly were not. If you watch the video, the douchebag cop easily stepped OVER the line of protesters before he turned around and sprayed them.

wishbone
11-21-11, 02:15 PM
They clearly were not. If you watch the video, the douchebag cop easily stepped OVER the line of protesters before he turned around and sprayed them.It wasn't fair that 50 of us were there, and only a few arrested who hadn't volunteered to be arrested. There was still one walkway open that the police were going to use to walk the arrestees out. I saw some friends of mine sit down there, and they were my friends, so I joined them. We linked arms, legs crossed.How do the police get the arrested past that line? Drag them across the other protesters, hurl them over the others protesters, etc.?

Psi
11-21-11, 02:16 PM
They clearly were not. If you watch the video, the douchebag cop easily stepped OVER the line of protesters before he turned around and sprayed them.

The biggest danger was that he might trip and crush them. Clearly he was intimidated by the thug students.

Tracer Bullet
11-21-11, 02:17 PM
Interesting. The group that is more anti-government actually goes by the laws. The group that wants more government action is disobeying them

What a tired analysis.

Rival11
11-21-11, 02:17 PM
Found this on msn.com of all places:

http://digitallife.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/21/8929646-uc-davis-cop-pepper-sprays-famous-works-of-art

wishbone
11-21-11, 02:18 PM
Occupy Wall Street's "Fun" New Tactic: TENTING
Meg Robertson
gothamist.com
11/21/2011

http://i44.tinypic.com/21dhk5g.jpg
Watch out Wall Street, the tents are coming. (Flickr User Scoboco (http://www.flickr.com/photos/62159569@N08/6333685920/sizes/l/in/photostream/))

Occupy Wall Street may be prohibited from pitching tents (http://gothamist.com/2011/11/15/judge_rules_against_occupy_wall_str.php) in Zuccotti Park, but the protesters are determined to make their opposition felt citywide with a new campaign called "tenting." It's being called a fun new way to "occupy people's minds and public space." Last night a group of protesters temporarily gathered in Duarte Park (http://gothamist.com/2011/11/15/occupy_wall_street_claims_new_park.php) north of Zuccotti and discussed plans to "liberate space and liberate minds by occupying the imagination." Did LeVar Burton (http://twitter.com/#!/LEVARBURTON) just join Occupy Wall Street (http://gothamist.com/tags/occupywallstreet)?

It seems the gist of this is that protesters will set up tents in public spaces around town and decorate them with messages... then leave them behind. The tents will be uninhabited on the inside, but bursting with ideas on the outside. Tenting: it's like planking, but with purpose! For your Monday morning cringing pleasure, here's an audio recording MSNBC's Meg Robertson (http://twitter.com/#!/MegRobertson) made of last night's tenting discussion:

<object height="81" width="100%"><param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F28556426&"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F28556426&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed></object><span><a href="http://soundcloud.com/megrobertson/announcement-on-new-ows-effort">Announcement on new #OWS effort called "tenting" AND plans to get Trinity Church property.</a> by <a href="http://soundcloud.com/megrobertson">MegRobertson</a>. Uploaded with <a href="http://soundcloud.com/apps/iphone">SoundCloud iPhone</a></span>

Your move, Goldman Sachs. THE ABANDONED TENTS UNITED WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED. Robertson's audio recording is worth enjoying all the way to the end, mainly because another protester addresses the group without the people's mic, showing how unnecessary the maddening call-and-response ritual has become in many situations. It's funny, though, how hard it is to break the habit of repeating someone else once you get started. Yet this man, whom we're declaring A HERO, persists, speaking full sentences without giving the others time to parrot his words! For a brief moment last night, Occupy Wall Street got 99% less annoying.

http://i42.tinypic.com/300utjr.jpg

(Courtesy MSNBC's Meg Robertson (http://twitter.com/#!/MegRobertson))http://gothamist.com/2011/11/21/occupy_wall_streets_new_weapon_tent.php

http://i43.tinypic.com/4ggirk.jpg

"...that not only are we willing to be militant and take space..."

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 02:22 PM
How do the police get the arrested past that line? Drag them across the other protesters, hurl them over the others protesters, etc.?

Arrest from the outside of the line? I know, I know, most cops lack the intelligence to understand geometry, but they're on a college campus -- surely they could get a professor to explain the concept.

inri222
11-21-11, 02:25 PM
arrest from the outside of the line? I know, i know, most cops lack the intelligence to understand geometry, but they're on a college campus -- surely they could get a professor to explain the concept.

rotfl

Venusian
11-21-11, 02:42 PM
Crap like this is annoying

http://www.occupyoakland.org/2011/11/occupy-oakland-calls-for-total-west-coast-port-shutdown-on-1212/


Occupy Oakland calls for the blockade and disruption of the economic apparatus of the 1% with a coordinated shutdown of ports on the entire West Coast on December 12th.

Shutting down the ports will hurt the 99% way more than the 1%

TheBigDave
11-21-11, 04:59 PM
Crap like this is annoying

http://www.occupyoakland.org/2011/11/occupy-oakland-calls-for-total-west-coast-port-shutdown-on-1212/

Shutting down the ports will hurt the 99% way more than the 1%

They're also planning an Occupy Black Friday. Targeting stores like Wal-Mart and Toys R’Us. Sit-ins and loud chanting while people are trying to shop for Christmas. I'm sure that'll win over some folks.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/11/21/black-friday-occupation-wall-street/

BearFan
11-21-11, 05:10 PM
Almost makes me want to go to a Wal Mart or Target on Black Friday.

Superboy
11-21-11, 05:36 PM
Crap like this is annoying

http://www.occupyoakland.org/2011/11/occupy-oakland-calls-for-total-west-coast-port-shutdown-on-1212/




Shutting down the ports will hurt the 99% way more than the 1%

That's the nature of protests. Going on strike also has the same effect.

arminius
11-21-11, 06:32 PM
That's the nature of protests. Going on strike also has the same effect.

The 1 percenters just sit and laugh while the 99ers fuck each other over. Same as it ever was.

Ky-Fi
11-21-11, 06:45 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYBvssi01ETvjwowVJmOBIDoeLsOoOmS-dEKhQt9rzllBb-kaJ

Norm de Plume
11-21-11, 07:18 PM
The 1 percenters just sit and laugh while the 99ers fuck each other over. Same as it ever was.
Yep, because they know the people in power whose bread they're buttering would never do anything disobedient.

DVD Polizei
11-21-11, 08:12 PM
Should've used Protester-Grade Pepper Spray.

1% urine. 99% feces.

PopcornTreeCt
11-21-11, 08:29 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.

TheBigDave
11-21-11, 08:45 PM
According to Gizmondo (http://gizmodo.com/5861446), the spray was Defense Technology MK-9 Stream, 0.7% Orange Band Pepper Spray. You can buy a can at Amazon for $61 shipped. Save $5 if you buy two.

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Technology-Stream-Orange-Pepper/dp/B0058EN4XI/

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 09:05 PM
Should've used Protester-Grade Pepper Spray.

1% urine. 99% feces.

Thank you for demonstrating the attitude law enforcement takes to people who dare voice some grievance with the way our country works. Keep up the good work. Hope there's a protest in your town so you can spray down some poor defenseless hippies.

Jason
11-21-11, 09:55 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.

Just another example of how people seem obsessed with working against their own self interest. The increasingly violent crackdown on dissent is not good for anyone in the long run.

JumpCutz
11-21-11, 10:02 PM
Just another example of how people seem obsessed with working against their own self interest.

:thumbsup:

I find this to be the most disturbing aspect of all of this. It's perturbing to see people so shortsighted.

wishbone
11-21-11, 10:04 PM
Hey, they made it! Sorta...Posted at 07:06 PM ET, 11/21/2011
Occupy Wall Street protesters finish journey from Zuccotti Park to D.C.
By Elizabeth Flock (http://www.washingtonpost.com/elizabeth-flock/2011/03/04/gIQARk0JbI_page.html)

http://i41.tinypic.com/sfc4yo.jpg

Almost two weeks ago, 21 Occupy Wall Street protesters decided to take the movement on the road (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/occupy-the-highway-well-be-along-for-the-ride/2011/11/09/gIQAmfi06M_blog.html), in a march from New York’s Zuccotti Park to the White House. Their goal: to spread the movement to the 12 cities and small towns they would pass through along the way, and to protest the supercommittee’s likely decision to retain Bush tax cuts “for the rich,” or “one percent.”

The protesters embarked on the 231-mile-trek with a $3,000 check from Occupy Wall Street. But the marchers soon found they didn’t need the money, as they received donations of food and cash, cigarettes and deodorant from local residents and passersby. Occupy movements also sprang up or grew larger in their wake in places such as New Brunswick and Trenton, N.J.

While some of the original 21 marchers dropped out because of missing toenails, shin splints or fevers, new marchers have since joined, so that more than twice as many protesters will arrive in Washington Tuesday.

On Wednesday, the Occupiers intend to hold a “day of action,” to shut down part of the city in protest of the failure by 12 lawmakers to reach a deal that would ease the tax burden on the “99 percent.”

Below, a photo essay of the march:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ekrm2u.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

Above, the protesters take a detour off their route on Nov. 15, 2011 in Philadelphia, Pa. to march by Independence Hall, where both the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were debated and adopted. Michael Glazer, 26, of Chicago, holds an American flag as he marches past. “I’m a realist. I know you can’t achieve everything,” Glazer said. “But I think we will always be fighting for something because people are always going to try to exploit how the government is run. It’s our job to fight against that.”

http://i42.tinypic.com/mb4twi.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

Dylan Bozlee, of Hilo, Hawaii, has his foot taped by volunteer EMT David McClintock of Philadelphia at the Occupy Philadelphia encampment at City Hall on Nov. 15. Bozlee dropped out of college at the University of Hawaii to join Occupy, and says he’d rather travel across America than get a job. “Do I want to work? Only if I wanted a home, wife, kids and a dog. If not, I think you’re ruining your life,” he said. Before the march, Bozlee was a member of the Class Warfare camp at Zuccotti Park in New York, where he says he joined other anarchists in teaching passersby about the concept of warfare of the lower classes against the upper class. His inspiration? “When I saw the pepper spraying by Toni Baloney,” or Deputy Inspector Anthony Bologna whose spray hit penned-in female protesters.

http://i39.tinypic.com/rs7605.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

School-aged children put up peace-signs and cheer from the Liberty Bell Center as the marchers walk by on Nov. 15, in Philadelphia, Pa. The protesters were greeted in each state by dozens of supportive passersby – with cheers, a honk from a car, a hug, and sometimes tears of gratitude. In others towns, marchers were greeted with the often angry, shouted refrain: “Get a job!!” The marchers’ response: “Why don’t you get me one?!” At least half of the original 21 marchers have full or part-time jobs.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2q2r6mf.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

Owen Johnson of North Pownal, Vt., walked barefoot. Johnson says he hasn’t been able to find shoes that fit his left ankle since being hit by a car while hitch-hiking in 2010. Johnson wore a hand-made coat and hat, and weaved dreamcatchers as he marched. “I’d also like to make my own shoes,” he says.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2n7mxcg.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

Marchers raise their hands to vote while on a lunch break in Darby, Pa. Maxwell Citizen Kepler of Washington D.C., says he didn’t believe in direct democracy until he joined the Mobile Occupation.: “After participating in the march’s daily GAs [General Assemblies], I realized that we may fight, and we may hate it, but we always come to a solution.”

http://i39.tinypic.com/242syo2.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

The Mobile Occupation protesters--seen here on a highway in Chester, Pa--often marched in the dark because exhaustion caused them to walk slower than anticipated. Eric Carter, an EMT from Washington D.C. and the march’s official medic, was nervous during late-night marches. “Someone is going to get hit tonight,” he muttered as several protesters weaved over a highway’s white line in a neighborhood known for drunk driving. “I said, get over to the right!” he yelled. Some days, marches were as long as 30 miles.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2i9t3bt.jpg
(Ricky Carioti - WASHINGTON POST)

The marchers stop to rest and snack at a supermarket along the route in Philadelphia. Although they bought food at the supermarket, nearly all of their meals were provided through donations from local residents, passersby and church groups. Donations included peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, Halloween candy, Sangria and tobacco. The marchers had received a $3000 check from Occupy Wall Street but didn’t need to dip into those funds until the final leg of the trip.http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/occupy-wall-street-protesters-finish-journey-from-zuccotti-park-to-dc/2011/11/21/gIQAz6PDjN_blog.html

http://i44.tinypic.com/am84ea.jpg

"Ah... sweet Sangria eases the pain."

DVD Polizei
11-21-11, 10:22 PM
Thank you for demonstrating the attitude law enforcement takes to people who dare voice some grievance with the way our country works. Keep up the good work. Hope there's a protest in your town so you can spray down some poor defenseless hippies.

:lol:

Thanks for grouping all of LE into my comment.

I wouldn't waste the cheapest pepper spray.

People like most (not all) of the OWS, just whine about authority figures and don't do shit about it but scream BRUTALITY and CORRUPTION when anyone gets in their way.

This is the worst kind of protesting. All they are doing is racking up taxpayer bills and taking away money which could have been used for other services. When it's all over, I'd like to see what has changed. And I still haven't figured out just what exactly do they expect to happen. It's like they think corporations are going to magically bow down to them because they are sitting in front of City Hall, taking a shit and pissing in public.

Doesn't seem like much of a plan to me.

If these people were truly involved in their mission, they would be on the doorsteps of the homes of corporate leaders, and they would be organizing massive boycotts of major corporations as well.

All I see is a bunch of idiots trying to prevent transients from getting some fries and cheeseburgers at a local fast food joint.

Pathetic.

wishbone
11-21-11, 11:04 PM
And I still haven't figured out just what exactly do they expect to happen. It's like they think corporations are going to magically bow down to them because they are sitting in front of City Hall, taking a shit and pissing in public.<html><table border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=2><tr><td><img src=http://i41.tinypic.com/2qvfoko.jpg></td><td><img src=http://i44.tinypic.com/21ak2gm.jpg height=50</td><td><img src=http://i43.tinypic.com/do3qzr.jpg></td><td><img src=http://i44.tinypic.com/21ak2gm.jpg height=50></td><td><img src=http://i39.tinypic.com/2chugsi.jpg</td></tr></table></html>

TheBigDave
11-21-11, 11:06 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it.

These protests remind me of someone bringing their bratty kid into a store. And the little snot starts yelling at his mother to buy him everything. Then when she's not looking, he takes a dump in the corner. She gets upset and says it's time to leave. But he sits down and refuses to go. So she has to drag him out kicking and screaming. It's kinda like that.

One 5-year-old doing that for 10 minutes is annoying. Thousands of 20-year-olds have been acting this way for two straight months. I'm surprised anyone is still siding with them.

Sean O'Hara
11-21-11, 11:32 PM
:lol:

Thanks for grouping all of LE into my comment.

I wouldn't waste the cheapest pepper spray.

People like most (not all) of the OWS, just whine about authority figures and don't do shit about it

And that justifies pepper-spraying (or, as you advocate, shit-n-piss spraying) them when they aren't engaged in anything more violent than sitting on a sidewalk?


but scream BRUTALITY and CORRUPTION when anyone gets in their way.

How dare they scream brutality when they get brutalized? The temerity of those hippies!

This is the worst kind of protesting. All they are doing is racking up taxpayer bills and taking away money which could have been used for other services. When it's all over, I'd like to see what has changed. And I still haven't figured out just what exactly do they expect to happen. It's like they think corporations are going to magically bow down to them because they are sitting in front of City Hall, taking a shit and pissing in public.

Doesn't seem like much of a plan to me.

Once again I ask -- how does any of that warrant an assault by police officers?

If these people were truly involved in their mission, they would be on the doorsteps of the homes of corporate leaders, and they would be organizing massive boycotts of major corporations as well.

All I see is a bunch of idiots trying to prevent transients from getting some fries and cheeseburgers at a local fast food joint.

Pathetic.

Whine, whine, whine -- people I disagree with are spreading their message in ways that annoy me! When did conservatives become so thin skinned?

General Zod
11-21-11, 11:51 PM
DVD Polizei & TheBigDave :up:

grundle
11-22-11, 12:47 AM
While some of the original 21 marchers dropped out... new marchers have since joined

That's cheating!

wishbone
11-22-11, 02:00 PM
"The President is speaking in Manchester, NH right now, we're gonna go to him live. Right now. He's getting interrupted -- right now."Obama Speech Interrupted By Occupy Protesters In New Hampshire (VIDEO)
First Posted: 11/22/11 01:27 PM ET Updated: 11/22/11 02:44 PM ET

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Protesters reportedly with the Occupy Wall Street movement delayed the start of President Obama's speech in Manchester, New Hampshire Tuesday, chanting over the president as he took the podium.

"Mr. President, over 4,000 peaceful protesters have been arrested…" they started shouting, according to Mediaite (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/president-obama-heckled-by-occupy-protesters-during-new-hampshire-speech/).

ABC News reports (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/obama-nh-jobs-speech-interrupted-by-occupy-protesters/) that a paper relaying their entire intended statement was passed around to reporters:"Over 4000 peaceful protesters have been arrested. While bankers continue to destroy the American economy. You must stop the assault on our 1st amendment rights. Your silence sends a message that police brutality is acceptable. Banks got bailed out. We got sold out."The president's supporters, however, quickly cut the demonstrators off with a counter chorus of "Obama, Obama," allowing him to start his speech and eventually make note of the display.

"Families like yours, young people like the ones here today -- including the ones who were just chanting at me -- you're the reason that I ran for office in the first place," Obama said later.

Obama is in the key primary state of New Hampshire, which has been mobbed by GOP presidential candidates seeking to topple him come November, to continue his push for aspects of his jobs bill -- particularly the extension of payroll tax cuts.

"If we don't act, taxes will go up for every single American, starting next year. And I'm not about to let that happen," Obama told the audience.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/22/obama-new-hampshire-speech-occupy-protesters_n_1108081.html

Take that human microphone! O-bam-a! O-bam-a! O-bam-a!

Tracer Bullet
11-22-11, 02:09 PM
Good for them.

Th0r S1mpson
11-22-11, 02:12 PM
They are not the reason he ran in the first place. They are part of the reason he won. So, that probably isn't a good sign.

Tracer Bullet
11-22-11, 02:39 PM
They are not the reason he ran in the first place. They are part of the reason he won. So, that probably isn't a good sign.

I don't know if it is or it isn't. Part of the reason Obama the candidate won was due to the youth volunteers. Obama the incumbent probably won't need them.

wm lopez
11-22-11, 03:36 PM
These protests remind me of someone bringing their bratty kid into a store. And the little snot starts yelling at his mother to buy him everything. Then when she's not looking, he takes a dump in the corner. She gets upset and says it's time to leave. But he sits down and refuses to go. So she has to drag him out kicking and screaming. It's kinda like that.

One 5-year-old doing that for 10 minutes is annoying. Thousands of 20-year-olds have been acting this way for two straight months. I'm surprised anyone is still siding with them.

Liberals are like Conservatives or any group or race they always stick together.

Norm de Plume
11-22-11, 04:10 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.
Just another example of how people seem obsessed with working against their own self interest. The increasingly violent crackdown on dissent is not good for anyone in the long run.
:up:

kvrdave
11-22-11, 04:33 PM
The kids shouldn't have been pepper sprayed but they weren't innocent like that kid tries to come across in that interview "It was all beautiful"

They should not have been pepper sprayed but they did obstruct the police.

I disagree. I think that is exactly the situation in which you use pepper spray. I think that is far better than using rubber bullets, or clubs, or something else.

I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.
I'm guessing it comes from the the fact that income inequality is something most people are on board with....depending on how you define it. And I'd guess that most people also believe that the protestors' actions will ultimately not do anything but make the lives of the 99% worse in the short term with no long term benefit. So what the 99% really get is the inability to use the parks that they pay for with taxes, inability to get to work on time, inability to go to shops they use to, inability to get their jobs done, etc.

If you had all the hippies doing their protests in DC, I think you'd see a lot less anger towards them. But they aren't helping the 99%, they are making their lives worse.

They ought to protest congress to break up the top 10 banks and reinstate Glass Steagall. Then you'd see support from them instead of anger.

DVD Polizei
11-22-11, 08:23 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.

If you look at the rather short history of OWS, you'll discover many people like myself sided with their ideology, but then lost support after the groups split, fought within each other, fought against outsiders (such as transients and common people passing by) and didn't have any sort of plan or goal, except to merely "occupy" a space and sit there.

Yeah, that'll teach those corporations.

My idea involves a little more effort and initiative, and more discipline and dignity, as well as respect for EVERYONE (including LE)...instead of screaming like little girls who got their lollipops taken from them because they aren't the center of attention anymore.

CaptainMarvel
11-22-11, 08:36 PM
If you look at the rather short history of OWS, you'll discover many people like myself sided with their ideology, but then lost support after the groups split, fought within each other, fought against outsiders (such as transients and common people passing by) and didn't have any sort of plan or goal, except to merely "occupy" a space and sit there.

Yeah, that'll teach those corporations.

My idea involves a little more effort and initiative, and more discipline and dignity, as well as respect for EVERYONE (including LE)...instead of screaming like little girls who got their lollipops taken from them because they aren't the center of attention anymore.

:thumbsup:

grundle
11-22-11, 08:48 PM
Apparently, this Occupier is against redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor, when the wealth being redistributed happens to be hers:



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/criminal_occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK#ixzz1bl7fZiSM

“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500..."



I'm pretty sure that less than 1% of 18-year-olds can afford a $5,500 laptop.

So, the theft of her laptop constitutes redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor.

grundle
11-22-11, 08:53 PM
They are not the reason he ran in the first place. They are part of the reason he won. So, that probably isn't a good sign.

As a Senator, Obama voted in favor of the $700 billion TARP corporate welfare/Goldman Sachs/AIG/bank bailout. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

wishbone
11-22-11, 09:01 PM
Apparently, this Occupier is against redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor, when the wealth being redistributed happens to be hers:





I'm pretty sure that less than 1% of 18-year-olds can afford a $5,500 laptop.

So, the theft of her laptop constitutes redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor.grundle, that story originally occupied post #781 (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10970101-post781.html).

grundle
11-22-11, 09:06 PM
grundle, that story originally occupied post #781 (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10970101-post781.html).

Oh.

This is such a big thread! It's hard to keep track!

grundle
11-22-11, 09:08 PM
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvspy/kgo-cameraman-attacked-while-shooting-murder-scene-at-occupy-oakland_b28970

ABC Affiliates, San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose

Occupy Oakland Protestors Attack KGO Cameraman For Shooting Video of Murder Scene

By Merrill Knox on November 11, 2011 11:57 AM

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvspy/files/2011/11/kgo-cameraman.jpg

KGO cameraman Randy Davis was attacked while trying to document the aftermath of a fatal shooting yesterday at Occupy Oakland. Davis suffered a mild concussion, as well as bumps and bruises, in the attack, according to a reporter at the ABC O&O.

“He was attacked by about a dozen men as he was trying to shoot the scene around the shooting,” KGO reporter Laura Anthony told TVSpy. “The shooting itself happened just minutes before our 5 p.m. live shot. [The] station was rolling on our camera position and you can hear 6 shots.”

Anthony reported on the incident during KGO’s 6 p.m. newscast. “The crowd was upset and tried to block the view of our photographer, who tried to get shots of what was happening,” she said.

The Oakland Tribune, which posted the above picture on Twitter, reported the crowd was yelling “No cameras!” and “No media!” while Davis was under attack.

A reporter at Fox-affiliate KTVU, Tom Vacar, reported last night that protestors formed a human shield around the victim to block photographers, possibly preventing people who might have been able to help from getting to the victim.

One witness told Vacar that the Occupy protestors “blocked people from taking pictures of the shooting victim, and that they acted in a way that they allowed the perpetrator to get away.”

KGO reporter Lilian Kim told TVSpy Davis is “feeling good and is in good spirits.”

grundle
11-22-11, 09:45 PM
Anyone who thinks they shouldn't have to repay their student loans, is not mature enough to be attending college in the first place:


http://www.presstv.ir/detail/211450.html

'Occupy Student Debt' emerges in US

Nov 22, 2011

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20111122/mohajer20111122093900093.jpg

A number of student organizers in the US have unveiled what they call an 'Occupy Student Debt' campaign, urging borrowers across the country to default on their college loans.

The campaign was made public Monday afternoon in New York's Zuccotti Park, where the national Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement emerged, the Huffington Post reported.

“Since the first days of the Occupy movement, the agony of student debt has been a constant refrain,” said Andrew Ross, a professor at New York University and an active OWS member, while addressing a crowd in the park

“We've heard the harrowing personal testimony about the suffering and humiliation of people who believe their debts will be unplayable in their lifetime,” Ross said.

Meanwhile, the campaigns “beliefs” or objectives were announced during the rally.

The student movement has four major objectives, apart from convincing all students to default on their loans, a move for which they have collected one million signatures in a petition.

They want student loans to be interest-free, tuitions at public institutions to be federally funded, students' debt to be written off and financial records of for-profit and private institutions to be made public.

“I see my students who have to work not only one but two jobs just to afford our relatively reasonable tuition rates,” said Ashley Dawson, an associate professor at the City University of New York.

“For students faced with debt, this campaign is important because it will help provide them with a collective organizing vehicle,” Dawson said.

The campaign emerged as an offshoot of the OWS, which has now spread across major US cities as well as many capitalist countries in the world.

Members of the OWS movement have for the past two months been protesting against corporate greed, unemployment, corruption and poverty in the United States.

kvrdave
11-22-11, 10:23 PM
Even I said, you can't count Occupy Oakland. I find them more disturbing, but I think they are the fringe of the OWS movement, and mainly there for the riots and chaos.

kvrdave
11-22-11, 10:32 PM
“Since the first days of the Occupy movement, the agony of student debt has been a constant refrain,” said Andrew Ross, a professor at New York University and an active OWS member, while addressing a crowd in the park

They want student loans to be interest-free, tuitions at public institutions to be federally funded, students' debt to be written off and financial records of for-profit and private institutions to be made public.


The last thing in the world the professor would want is for there to be no student loans because then the cost of education would plummet and he would no longer be part of the 5%. In a true free market, he'd be paid less, likely lose his tenure, etc. He is going with the safe side of making it easier to get, which will only increase his own fortune. :lol:

But I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.

TheBigDave
11-22-11, 11:10 PM
Here's an interesting video from UC Davis.

The police officer goes up to each sitting protester blocking the way and gives them a warning. He says, "Do you understand that if you stay here when the police car comes to get them (referring to the protesters under arrest), you are going to be subject to the use of force". He also mentions that the pepperball guns will be deployed. You can see the students nodding their heads to agree. Then the crowd chants "If you let them go, we'll let you leave".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MGagKL_tvS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sean O'Hara
11-22-11, 11:48 PM
Here's an interesting video from UC Davis.

The police officer goes up to each sitting protester blocking the way and gives them a warning. He says, "Do you understand that if you stay here when the police car comes to get them (referring to the protesters under arrest), you are going to be subject to the use of force". He also mentions that the pepperball guns will be deployed. You can see the students nodding their heads to agree. Then the crowd chants "If you let them go, we'll let you leave".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MGagKL_tvS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah. So?

If a cop catches someone jaywalking and says, "If you do that again, I'll taser you," that doesn't justify tasering someone for jaywalking.

grundle
11-22-11, 11:53 PM
Here's an interesting video from UC Davis.

The police officer goes up to each sitting protester blocking the way and gives them a warning. He says, "Do you understand that if you stay here when the police car comes to get them (referring to the protesters under arrest), you are going to be subject to the use of force". He also mentions that the pepperball guns will be deployed. You can see the students nodding their heads to agree. Then the crowd chants "If you let them go, we'll let you leave".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MGagKL_tvS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/it-figures-uc-davis-students-agreed-to-be-pepper-sprayed-before-incident-video/

It Figures… UC Davis Students AGREED to Be Pepper Sprayed Before Incident

UC Davis Pepper Spray Massacre Victims Giggled & Smiled Describing Torture

by Jim Hoft on Tuesday, November 22, 2011

The UC Davis students who were holding the illegal protest on campus last weekend were warned that they would be pepper sprayed by the campus police. Not only that… But you can see in the video below that the students AGREED in the video to be pepper sprayed.

For some reason this didn’t make it into any of the liberal media reports on the incident; just like the fact that the protesters were chanting “f*ck the police” never made it into any reports.

From the video:

As a Policeman bends over to tell the “Leader” of the protesters that they are going to be sprayed, the “Leader” responds (At the very beginning of the video):

“Your shooting us specifically? No that’s fine, that’s fine.”


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WO4406KJQMc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

kvrdave
11-23-11, 12:10 AM
Yeah. So?

If a cop catches someone jaywalking and says, "If you do that again, I'll taser you," that doesn't justify tasering someone for jaywalking.

What? The protestors told the cops that if they let those arrested go free, then they would allow the police to leave. Keeping cops from taking people arrested absolutely justifies the use of force. How the fuck is that somehow similar to jaywalking?

Fuckers got off lucky.

grundle
11-23-11, 12:29 AM
This is the best post in this thread so far:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/politics-world-events/595083-occupy-wall-street-67.html#post10998236

Sean O'Hara
11-23-11, 01:24 AM
What? The protestors told the cops that if they let those arrested go free, then they would allow the police to leave. Keeping cops from taking people arrested absolutely justifies the use of force. How the fuck is that somehow similar to jaywalking?

Fuckers got off lucky.

You do realize the cops sprayed the people being arrested, not the ones doing the shouting?

kvrdave
11-23-11, 01:37 AM
You do realize the cops sprayed the people being arrested, not the ones doing the shouting?

That isn't how it reads. And they weren't cuffed, etc.

Police arrested people. Police have one avenue out that is hippie free. Hippies come in and block that way out. Hippies asked by police to get out of their sit-in and told that more police are coming. Police let hippies know that if they don't move, they will get some nice pepper spray. Hippies chant. Hippies use human centipede. Hippies chant more. Hippies don't move. Hippies tell cops that if they let those arrested go, they will remove the hippie sit-in, and let the police go free. New police show up and are tired of hippie crap. Give hippies what was warned, and pepper spray their asses resulting in the closest thing to a shower they have seen in weeks. But hippies are strong willed and still refuse to move, so police push their sorry asses over to the lawn so they can cry and choke over there. Police trapped and now not trapped, and move out through opening that was previously a hippie sit-in. It winds down, so naturally, hippies chant.

TheBigDave
11-23-11, 02:17 AM
Police arrested people. Police have one avenue out that is hippie free. Hippies come in and block that way out. Hippies asked by police to get out of their sit-in and told that more police are coming. Police let hippies know that if they don't move, they will get some nice pepper spray. Hippies chant. Hippies use human centipede. Hippies chant more. Hippies don't move. Hippies tell cops that if they let those arrested go, they will remove the hippie sit-in, and let the police go free. New police show up and are tired of hippie crap. Give hippies what was warned, and pepper spray their asses resulting in the closest thing to a shower they have seen in weeks. But hippies are strong willed and still refuse to move, so police push their sorry asses over to the lawn so they can cry and choke over there. Police trapped and now not trapped, and move out through opening that was previously a hippie sit-in. It winds down, so naturally, hippies chant.

Based on the videos I've watched on Youtube, that seems to be pretty much how it all went down. The police had arrested a couple protesters while taking down the tent camp. They were evacuating the arrested protesters from the quad. But a group of students surrounded the police to prevent them from leaving.

Here's how one of the sprayed protesters described the situation:

"A collective decision was made on the fly to just sit in a circle arms linked legs crossed, with police officers and "prisoners" in the middle because we didn't want them arresting only 3 of us. It wasn't fair that 50 of us were there, and only a few arrested who hadn't volunteered to be arrested. There was still one walkway open that the police were going to use to walk the arrestees out. I saw some friends of mine sit down there, and they were my friends, so I joined them. We linked arms, legs crossed."

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html

Police warned the students that had rushed in front and blocked their path that unless they moved, force (pepperball guns) would be used. The students chanted demands for the police to release the arrested protesters. Eventually, police ended up spraying the students blocking the path, arrested a couple of them and left the quad.

maxfisher
11-23-11, 05:29 AM
It's a hoot that some these people think civil disobedience means a bunch of people doing something illegal, but then getting to pick which of them get arrested.

wm lopez
11-23-11, 05:38 AM
Anyone who thinks they shouldn't have to repay their student loans, is not mature enough to be attending college in the first place:


http://www.presstv.ir/detail/211450.html

'Occupy Student Debt' emerges in US

Nov 22, 2011

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20111122/mohajer20111122093900093.jpg

A number of student organizers in the US have unveiled what they call an 'Occupy Student Debt' campaign, urging borrowers across the country to default on their college loans.

The campaign was made public Monday afternoon in New York's Zuccotti Park, where the national Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement emerged, the Huffington Post reported.

“Since the first days of the Occupy movement, the agony of student debt has been a constant refrain,” said Andrew Ross, a professor at New York University and an active OWS member, while addressing a crowd in the park

“We've heard the harrowing personal testimony about the suffering and humiliation of people who believe their debts will be unplayable in their lifetime,” Ross said.

Meanwhile, the campaigns “beliefs” or objectives were announced during the rally.

The student movement has four major objectives, apart from convincing all students to default on their loans, a move for which they have collected one million signatures in a petition.

They want student loans to be interest-free, tuitions at public institutions to be federally funded, students' debt to be written off and financial records of for-profit and private institutions to be made public.

“I see my students who have to work not only one but two jobs just to afford our relatively reasonable tuition rates,” said Ashley Dawson, an associate professor at the City University of New York.

“For students faced with debt, this campaign is important because it will help provide them with a collective organizing vehicle,” Dawson said.

The campaign emerged as an offshoot of the OWS, which has now spread across major US cities as well as many capitalist countries in the world.

Members of the OWS movement have for the past two months been protesting against corporate greed, unemployment, corruption and poverty in the United States.

But these students went to school to make mega bucks.
Had they went to truck driving school instead of getting a liberal arts education they wouldn't be in this mess.

Venusian
11-23-11, 07:46 AM
That kid in the video seemed to be excited to be getting sprayed. I don't think he realized what was about to happen.


Also, the cops did try to drag people away at first but they resisted. Still think they should have tried more but that's coming from me as i'm sitting safe behind my computer

wishbone
11-23-11, 07:54 AM
If a cop catches someone jaywalking and says, "If you do that again, I'll taser you," that doesn't justify tasering someone for jaywalking.http://i42.tinypic.com/2m4f8dt.jpg

A more apt analogy would be someone sitting in the middle of the street obstructing traffic.

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 08:27 AM
That isn't how it reads. And they weren't cuffed, etc.

Police arrested people. Police have one avenue out that is hippie free. Hippies come in and block that way out. Hippies asked by police to get out of their sit-in and told that more police are coming. Police let hippies know that if they don't move, they will get some nice pepper spray. Hippies chant. Hippies use human centipede. Hippies chant more. Hippies don't move. Hippies tell cops that if they let those arrested go, they will remove the hippie sit-in, and let the police go free. New police show up and are tired of hippie crap. Give hippies what was warned, and pepper spray their asses resulting in the closest thing to a shower they have seen in weeks. But hippies are strong willed and still refuse to move, so police push their sorry asses over to the lawn so they can cry and choke over there. Police trapped and now not trapped, and move out through opening that was previously a hippie sit-in. It winds down, so naturally, hippies chant.

I feel sad for you.

Psi
11-23-11, 08:33 AM
That isn't how it reads. And they weren't cuffed, etc.

Police arrested people. Police have one avenue out that is hippie free. Hippies come in and block that way out. Hippies asked by police to get out of their sit-in and told that more police are coming. Police let hippies know that if they don't move, they will get some nice pepper spray. Hippies chant. Hippies use human centipede. Hippies chant more. Hippies don't move. Hippies tell cops that if they let those arrested go, they will remove the hippie sit-in, and let the police go free. New police show up and are tired of hippie crap. Give hippies what was warned, and pepper spray their asses resulting in the closest thing to a shower they have seen in weeks. But hippies are strong willed and still refuse to move, so police push their sorry asses over to the lawn so they can cry and choke over there. Police trapped and now not trapped, and move out through opening that was previously a hippie sit-in. It winds down, so naturally, hippies chant.

You read more and more like wm lopez and grundle every day. :(

wishbone
11-23-11, 09:02 AM
http://i42.tinypic.com/2yva0ef.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/dbqw7l.jpg

Coming soon -- Occupy Proofreading! :doh:

drak b
11-23-11, 09:07 AM
Okay, I have to wonder about the lady pictured in the 'Occupy Student Debt' protest article above. After twenty three years, she has only managed to pay back $32,700?!? Either she has spent a lot of time unemployed or has made some profoundly poor life/career decisions. I'm calling 'Artist' on her...

RunBandoRun
11-23-11, 09:08 AM
Okay, I have to wonder about the lady pictured in the 'Occupy Student Debt' protest article above. After twenty three years, she has only managed to pay back $32,700?!? Either she has spent a lot of time unemployed or has made some profoundly poor life/career decisions. I'm calling 'Artist' on her...

I was wondering about that myself. I thought the loans had to be paid back over like ten years.

Sean O'Hara
11-23-11, 09:24 AM
Okay, I have to wonder about the lady pictured in the 'Occupy Student Debt' protest article above. After twenty three years, she has only managed to pay back $32,700?!? Either she has spent a lot of time unemployed or has made some profoundly poor life/career decisions. I'm calling 'Artist' on her...

Did you read the whole message? You did notice that the main complaint listed is, "No bankruptcy or forgiveness allowed"?

Of course, we all know that only artists and people who make bad choices ever file for bankruptcy. It is completely, totally and 100% outrageous for anyone to suggest that a system where government-secured loans, handed out freely to people who are barely adults, and which cannot be nullified through bankruptcy, are unfair to both borrowers and other lenders.

maxfisher
11-23-11, 10:05 AM
Did you read the whole message? You did notice that the main complaint listed is, "No bankruptcy or forgiveness allowed"?

Did you read the whole message? Her first claim is that she's paid her loan faithfully for 23 years. Something in the sign is obviously incorrect.

This isn't aimed at Sean, but just in general... when in the fuck did someone writing something on a piece of paper and taking a picture of it create a 'source' that people take seriously and debate? There have been tons of pictures of people holding up their little handwritten signs full of information that seems counterintuitive at best, but it seems quite a few people instantly accept it, or at least believe it's close enough to the truth to count. I don't know that I'd expect more from the general public, but I would from the news media, quite a few people that are posting here and many of the contacts I'm 'friends' with on social media.

Sean O'Hara
11-23-11, 10:23 AM
Did you read the whole message? Her first claim is that she's paid her loan faithfully for 23 years. Something in the sign is obviously incorrect.

Not necessarily. If she filed for bankruptcy, she still has to pay the student loans -- that's the main complaint about the student loan system.

This isn't aimed at Sean, but just in general... when in the fuck did someone writing something on a piece of paper and taking a picture of it create a 'source' that people take seriously and debate? There have been tons of pictures of people holding up their little handwritten signs full of information that seems counterintuitive at best, but it seems quite a few people instantly accept it, or at least believe it's close enough to the truth to count. I don't know that I'd expect more from the general public, but I would from the news media, quite a few people that are posting here and many of the contacts I'm 'friends' with on social media.

So how are the signs any different from the crap that gets posted here? Each message has to be evaluated on its own merits.

kvrdave
11-23-11, 10:31 AM
I feel sad for you.

Friends don't always agree with each other. Obviously we have a different perspective on it.

kvrdave
11-23-11, 10:33 AM
Not necessarily. If she filed for bankruptcy, she still has to pay the student loans -- that's the main complaint about the student loan system.


If she filed for bankruptcy, then she probably didn't pay faithfully on her student loan for 23 years. I think the bankruptcy exemption is crap. But so is her sign. It doesn't add up.

Th0r S1mpson
11-23-11, 10:38 AM
So how are the signs any different from the crap that gets posted here? Each message has to be evaluated on its own merits.

<img src="http://www.imageadventures.com/other/evaluation.jpg">

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 10:39 AM
Friends don't always agree with each other. Obviously we have a different perspective on it.

Yes, and your perspective is based on the hoariest of cliches about hippies and how dirty they are. I'm not at all sure why anyone takes your opinion seriously, but I know that I refuse to anymore until you demonstrate at least a modicum of knowledge on the protests.

X
11-23-11, 10:55 AM
Not necessarily. If she filed for bankruptcy, she still has to pay the student loans -- that's the main complaint about the student loan system.I thought there was an exclusion to that exclusion after a number of years.

kvrdave
11-23-11, 10:56 AM
Yes, and your perspective is based on the hoariest of cliches about hippies and how dirty they are. I'm not at all sure why anyone takes your opinion seriously, but I know that I refuse to anymore until you demonstrate at least a modicum of knowledge on the protests.

:lol: Okay. And I will continue to love you even if you have a different meaning attached to the word "hippies" than I do.

wishbone
11-23-11, 11:29 AM
So how are the signs any different from the crap that gets posted here? Each message has to be evaluated on its own merits.QUIJANO: At age 27, Josh Eaton thought he could rise above his family's working class background.

JOSH EATON: I've been working temp jobs, part-time jobs, unemployed a lot of the time. And I'm really afraid that we no longer live in a country where that kind of upward mobility is possible.

QUIJANO: He's still unemployed more than a year after graduating from Harvard with a master's degree. He has $60,000 in student loan debt.

JOSH EATON: Just the idea of having a full-time job with benefits, being on the 9:00 to 5:00, that's aspirational and, you know, in some instances sort of -- seems almost unreachable.http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/finance-wire/mi_8120/is_20111014/news-october-14-2011-cbs/ai_n58300420/pg_2/

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ih16is.jpg
Harvard Divinity School
Master of Divinity, Buddhist Studies

Do you think it was wise for Mr. Eaton to amass $60,000 in student loan debt at the Harvard Divinity School?

Th0r S1mpson
11-23-11, 11:35 AM
The Tibetan Translation market has really taken a hit the past few years.

X
11-23-11, 11:38 AM
Makes you wonder how Tibetan Buddhists learn that stuff without huge loans.

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 12:12 PM
:lol: Okay. And I will continue to love you even if you have a different meaning attached to the word "hippies" than I do.

I just find it morally reprehensible to cheer on the assault of non-violent protesters by police because the protesters are "hippies."

You obviously feel differently. And that is sad. That's all I'm saying.

al_bundy
11-23-11, 12:30 PM
i find it morally reprehensible that people think they can stop others from going on about their lives and think it's perfectly OK

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 12:33 PM
i find it morally reprehensible that people think they can stop others from going on about their lives and think it's perfectly OK

I agree, I think the police have been overzealous and inappropriate.

Superboy
11-23-11, 12:40 PM
Well, for supposedly being innocuous and without direction, the OWS sure did scare the crap out of the big banks, to the point that they hired a consulting firm to sabotage their efforts.

Terrible, what an absolutely terrible time we live in.

al_bundy
11-23-11, 12:49 PM
I agree, I think the police have been overzealous and inappropriate.


i thought they did a good job of clearing the streets so people can go to work and not have people blocking the sidewalks

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 12:55 PM
i thought they did a good job of clearing the streets so people can go to work and not have people blocking the sidewalks

Nice comeback!

al_bundy
11-23-11, 01:01 PM
i've seen plenty of protests here and they all seem to have no problems following the law and keeping disruptions to a minimum.

the OWS and the biking idiots seem to be on a mission to screw with people's lives even if they don't care about their opinions

kvrdave
11-23-11, 01:05 PM
I just find it morally reprehensible to cheer on the assault of non-violent protesters by police because the protesters are "hippies."

You obviously feel differently. And that is sad. That's all I'm saying.

We make fun of how people die on this forum, and this is what pushes you over the edge? And I think you must think that I believe there is some group which make up "hippies." It's a catch all of those I am making fun of. I don't cheer the "assault" because they are hippies. If they were businessmen from some Republican conference who decided to lock arms and legs until the police let Bernie Madoff go, and were blocking the police, I'd cheer and call them hippies as they got pepper sprayed as well.

What would you have had the police do? Should they have decided to let all those arrested go? Do laws not matter when you think they shouldn't matter? When you protest, don't you know there can be consequences? Especially when the police tell you what to do or you will get pepper sprayed?

Does it suck to get pepper sprayed? Sure, but every one of those policemen have been peppersprayed before in training as well. It is absolutely the best thing they could have done to resolve this....other than something like forget there are laws. I don't know what else you would propose besides a moratorium on laws. Would you have prefered rubber bullets? Riot gear? What? Again, let the arrested go? Anytime there are sufficient number of protestors, should we not allow anyone to be arrested?

This isn't sad. This is what the protestors knew would happen, and they let it happen by their actions of blocking the police. This reaction kept things from getting ugly and someone dying. I'm sure you don't like how Kent State turned out. This is much better, imo. But hug therapy won't do it when protestors block police.

Tell me what you would have proposed.

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 01:14 PM
I've previously stated my position, and I'm sorry, but I don't wish to go over it again. I'm leaving in an hour for the airport and this time tomorrow will be drinking beer in Prague.

If you want to know what I think, go back and read the thread. Enjoy your holiday.

wishbone
11-23-11, 01:18 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/3hugw.jpg

Na zdraví!

superdeluxe
11-23-11, 01:30 PM
I'm astonished at just how pissed off people are who have nothing to do with the protests. Not just here but all over the internet. People are so irrationally angry at the protestors, I just don't get it. Especially since I think the root issue of income inequality is something that I think most everyone is on board with.


Many people in Seattle were pissed off at the protestors for f**king up their commute when they blocked off the University Bridge.

al_bundy
11-23-11, 01:41 PM
almost all the rich people i see work 80 hours a week, don't have kids or never see them. i'll take less money and spending time with my kids over a pile of cash most of which i will never use

Tracer Bullet
11-23-11, 01:47 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/uc-davis-protest_b_1103039.html

I'll just leave this here.

Th0r S1mpson
11-23-11, 02:02 PM
Have fun in Prague. Relax.

X
11-23-11, 02:05 PM
Prague? You could at least go to Turkey for Thanksgiving.

maxfisher
11-23-11, 02:07 PM
Terrible, what an absolutely terrible time we live in.

Not picking on you specifically, but to me, this is the entire mindset of the OWS, at least as presented in the news, and a lot of other people right now. And it's bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit.

We can go to Walmart and buy medicine for a pittance to wipe out sicknesses that would've been a significant ordeal in the past. Things that would've killed, or at least seriously diminished quality of life, are minor annoyances now.

Not only does everyone have a television pumping loads of information and entertainment into our houses, but the vast majority of us have easy enough lives that afford us the time for such frivolities as TV, video games, movies, etc. We can affordably and easily read pretty much any book that's ever been written. We all have internet access, so we can join in conversations on just about any topic imaginable with people all over the goddamned globe and learn just about anything we could ever want to learn.

Just about anything that's safe to eat can be conveniently obtained from damn near anywhere in the country, and most of it at a relatively low cost. For the most part, we're sure of our physical safety and property rights and confident no one's going to attack us or take away everything we own by force.

As OWS has shown, we can camp out on property we don't own, spend months there in tents, doing drugs, getting laid and bitching about the man getting us down, and a lot of people actually feel sorry for us when the government says the party's over because we shat on one too many doorsteps. We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.

RunBandoRun
11-23-11, 02:44 PM
Not picking on you specifically, but to me, this is the entire mindset of the OWS, at least as presented in the news, and a lot of other people right now. And it's bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit.

We can go to Walmart and buy medicine for a pittance to wipe out sicknesses that would've been a significant ordeal in the past. Things that would've killed, or at least seriously diminished quality of life, are minor annoyances now.

Not only does everyone have a television pumping loads of information and entertainment into our houses, but the vast majority of us have easy enough lives that afford us the time for such frivolities as TV, video games, movies, etc. We can affordably and easily read pretty much any book that's ever been written. We all have internet access, so we can join in conversations on just about any topic imaginable with people all over the goddamned globe and learn just about anything we could ever want to learn.

Just about anything that's safe to eat can be conveniently obtained from damn near anywhere in the country, and most of it at a relatively low cost. For the most part, we're sure of our physical safety and property rights and confident no one's going to attack us or take away everything we own by force.

As OWS has shown, we can camp out on property we don't own, spend months there in tents, doing drugs, getting laid and bitching about the man getting us down, and a lot of people actually feel sorry for us when the government says the party's over because we shat on one too many doorsteps. We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

kvrdave
11-23-11, 02:44 PM
I've previously stated my position, and I'm sorry, but I don't wish to go over it again. I'm leaving in an hour for the airport and this time tomorrow will be drinking beer in Prague.

If you want to know what I think, go back and read the thread. Enjoy your holiday.

You too. Have fun.

kvrdave
11-23-11, 02:47 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/uc-davis-protest_b_1103039.html

I'll just leave this here.

Imagine the outrage if they had been expelled. I wouldn't have minded that option, personally. But I'll bet most would have prefered the the spray. They sure could have used the expulsion as a threat.

Nausicaa
11-23-11, 03:07 PM
We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

Not that I disagree with your general sentiment (although I don't think it invalidates any of the arguments made by OWS, otherwise I could invalidate just about any criticism you have about society today by saying the same thing you did), but this particular line of argument is really getting fucking old, yet it is being made everywhere people are discussing OWS.

College costs have been rising rapidly and out of control, and growing up all kids have heard for the last 50 years is 'go to college, go to college, go to college'. I'm sorry, but student debt is a huge problem, and you can hardly blame 18 year olds (especially those coming from backgrounds that require them to take out debt) for expecting to be able to find a job that allows them to keep up with their loan payments and not get swallowed whole by interest, never to recover for the rest of their lives. Suddenly it's kids' fault (kids who routinely get called morons by the very people claiming they should be personal finance experts out of high school) that they've been sold a line of bullshit their whole lives.

X
11-23-11, 03:18 PM
Refusing to pay tuition might have some effect in getting the right kind of attention. Having the whole student body drop out would defeat the purpose of raising the fees. Paying the fees you're protesting and just setting up tents sure won't fix the problem.

Th0r S1mpson
11-23-11, 04:50 PM
Well, I finally gave in and purchased my fist smartphone. iPhone 4S. I would like to apologize to all of the OWS folks with iPhones out there. I will no longer comment on that fact that you own one. But I still smell better than you, and bathe less often.

Superboy
11-23-11, 05:00 PM
really? I remember a few months ago you were shopping for a new Android phone. How'd that go? Why'd you choose the iPhone?

I got a new phone recently, and also got an iPhone 4S. Compared to my old dinosaur, it's an excellent phone.

Superboy
11-23-11, 05:01 PM
Not picking on you specifically, but to me, this is the entire mindset of the OWS, at least as presented in the news, and a lot of other people right now. And it's bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit.

We can go to Walmart and buy medicine for a pittance to wipe out sicknesses that would've been a significant ordeal in the past. Things that would've killed, or at least seriously diminished quality of life, are minor annoyances now.

Not only does everyone have a television pumping loads of information and entertainment into our houses, but the vast majority of us have easy enough lives that afford us the time for such frivolities as TV, video games, movies, etc. We can affordably and easily read pretty much any book that's ever been written. We all have internet access, so we can join in conversations on just about any topic imaginable with people all over the goddamned globe and learn just about anything we could ever want to learn.

Just about anything that's safe to eat can be conveniently obtained from damn near anywhere in the country, and most of it at a relatively low cost. For the most part, we're sure of our physical safety and property rights and confident no one's going to attack us or take away everything we own by force.

As OWS has shown, we can camp out on property we don't own, spend months there in tents, doing drugs, getting laid and bitching about the man getting us down, and a lot of people actually feel sorry for us when the government says the party's over because we shat on one too many doorsteps. We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.

I didn't mean, as in, life in the 21st century in America is bad.

I meant all this shit happening right now.

RoyalTea
11-23-11, 05:20 PM
Not picking on you specifically, but to me, this is the entire mindset of the OWS, at least as presented in the news, and a lot of other people right now. And it's bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit.

We can go to Walmart and buy medicine for a pittance to wipe out sicknesses that would've been a significant ordeal in the past. Things that would've killed, or at least seriously diminished quality of life, are minor annoyances now.

Not only does everyone have a television pumping loads of information and entertainment into our houses, but the vast majority of us have easy enough lives that afford us the time for such frivolities as TV, video games, movies, etc. We can affordably and easily read pretty much any book that's ever been written. We all have internet access, so we can join in conversations on just about any topic imaginable with people all over the goddamned globe and learn just about anything we could ever want to learn.

Just about anything that's safe to eat can be conveniently obtained from damn near anywhere in the country, and most of it at a relatively low cost. For the most part, we're sure of our physical safety and property rights and confident no one's going to attack us or take away everything we own by force.

As OWS has shown, we can camp out on property we don't own, spend months there in tents, doing drugs, getting laid and bitching about the man getting us down, and a lot of people actually feel sorry for us when the government says the party's over because we shat on one too many doorsteps. We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.

In 1900, the average workweek was 53 hours and the average family spent 43% of their income on food. (source: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=206)

Currently, the average workweek is 34.3 hours (source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm) and the average family spends 15% of their income on food.

So, today, a person can EAT on just 5.15 hours of labor per week. In 1900, it was almost 23 hours of labor just to be able to eat.

sracer
11-23-11, 05:43 PM
Not picking on you specifically, but to me, this is the entire mindset of the OWS, at least as presented in the news, and a lot of other people right now. And it's bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit.

We can go to Walmart and buy medicine for a pittance to wipe out sicknesses that would've been a significant ordeal in the past. Things that would've killed, or at least seriously diminished quality of life, are minor annoyances now.

Not only does everyone have a television pumping loads of information and entertainment into our houses, but the vast majority of us have easy enough lives that afford us the time for such frivolities as TV, video games, movies, etc. We can affordably and easily read pretty much any book that's ever been written. We all have internet access, so we can join in conversations on just about any topic imaginable with people all over the goddamned globe and learn just about anything we could ever want to learn.

Just about anything that's safe to eat can be conveniently obtained from damn near anywhere in the country, and most of it at a relatively low cost. For the most part, we're sure of our physical safety and property rights and confident no one's going to attack us or take away everything we own by force.

As OWS has shown, we can camp out on property we don't own, spend months there in tents, doing drugs, getting laid and bitching about the man getting us down, and a lot of people actually feel sorry for us when the government says the party's over because we shat on one too many doorsteps. We're to the point where people bitch about the fact that they went into $XX,XXX.XX of debt to get a degree in religion or landscaping and that now they can't find a job that pays them six figures a year to make their lives comfortable as they pay back that debt, and lots of other people hang their heads and wring their hands and say 'Terrible, what terrible times we live in.'

We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.
ok, now turn that critical eye to lobbyists, corporate executives, and politicians who do the will of those previous two groups. How about a similar look to those whose greed takes no one but themselves into consideration.

kvrdave
11-23-11, 05:51 PM
ok, now turn that critical eye to lobbyists, corporate executives, and politicians who do the will of those previous two groups. How about a similar look to those whose greed takes no one but themselves into consideration.

And now go disrupt the port and all the union workers to make that point. Wait....what?

It's a great message. And it is the 99% presenting it to the 99%. They may want to rethink that strategy. Tents and drum circles won't do it. They need governmental reform. And that comes from government.

Th0r S1mpson
11-23-11, 06:06 PM
It's a great message. And it is the 99% presenting it to the 99%.

Actually, it's about 0.004% trying to present it to the 99%. You need more of the 99% to take part if it will gain anything. Most simply don't care enough about the message. If you have a job, it's a tough time to complain.

wmansir
11-23-11, 07:51 PM
Well, for supposedly being innocuous and without direction, the OWS sure did scare the crap out of the big banks, to the point that they hired a consulting firm to sabotage their efforts.

Source? I've seen reports of a proposal by a lobbying firm to conduct a campaign against OWS (for a big fee) but I haven't seen any confirmation that any company accepted there proposal.

DVD Polizei
11-23-11, 08:02 PM
I was wondering about that myself. I thought the loans had to be paid back over like ten years.

Nope. That wouldn't allow students and their loans to accrue massive interest. :)

In the case of this woman, she can more than likely have the rest of her loan forgiven if she makes 2 years more payments. 25yrs of consistent payments and the rest is forgiven.

DVD Polizei
11-23-11, 08:13 PM
We are pampered, we are privileged and we are soft. And, when people bemoan how horrible the times are on the internet, which on it's own would pretty much be considered to be motherfucking magic in any time outside our own, it just about blows my mind.

Well, I just hope Facebook gets destroyed out of all of this mess. That's all I want.

But the middle and lower classes are being nickel and dimed to death.

Goverments both fed and state and city are increasing fees and trying to come up with ways to get more cash for their own employees--amazing new "construction zones" here one day gone the next for government employees to guarantee their unrealistic incomes. They are also intruding on private businesses, taking away their services once rendered, and now making it a government service. Example? Portland, OR.

Corporations increasing fees (ComCrap just increased their internet another $3 and even more for other services). Gas prices still high. Groceries still expensive.

It all adds up.

Consumers don't have a voice.

Oh, and what about healthcare? I know friends who are being totally fucked in the ass with this new wonderful Obamacare shit. This still confuses me. Obama is actually CUTTING benefits for many people, and then making them pay their own way.

The US Government doesn't intervene in corporate affairs unless it's a bailout of some sort, and corporations don't complain until they need a bailout.

The OWS had a point, but failed to deliver it.

We need a voice that's more respectable and mission-oriented, instead of some smelly 3rd-generation hippie-fuck who can't take a shit in a toilet and prefers pissing behind a tree.

maxfisher
11-23-11, 08:53 PM
Not that I disagree with your general sentiment (although I don't think it invalidates any of the arguments made by OWS, otherwise I could invalidate just about any criticism you have about society today by saying the same thing you did), but this particular line of argument is really getting fucking old, yet it is being made everywhere people are discussing OWS.

College costs have been rising rapidly and out of control, and growing up all kids have heard for the last 50 years is 'go to college, go to college, go to college'. I'm sorry, but student debt is a huge problem, and you can hardly blame 18 year olds (especially those coming from backgrounds that require them to take out debt) for expecting to be able to find a job that allows them to keep up with their loan payments and not get swallowed whole by interest, never to recover for the rest of their lives. Suddenly it's kids' fault (kids who routinely get called morons by the very people claiming they should be personal finance experts out of high school) that they've been sold a line of bullshit their whole lives.

What's the average student loan debt for these 22 year olds when they graduate? The latest figure I can find is from the ASA stating $12,400. Hardly a crippling amount with typical repayment terms and the fact that payments can usually be deferred until full-time employment is achieved.

I agree with your point that kids have been done a disservice by everyone selling them on 4 year degrees and telling them 'you can do anything you want!', when in reality quite a few folks are better off without degrees and there are tons of all-but-useless degrees out there. Hell, looking at people I stayed in touch with from high school, the wealthiest guy I know in that group said fuck college and opened his own body shop/paint shop.

Not to mention, there's a huge demand for people with manufacturing skills right now, despite Dr. Mabuse and others doom and glooming that sector. One of my company's clients is currently operating at about 70%, not due to lack of demand for its products, but because it can't find skilled labor. That's a common story throughout American manufacturing. Everyone's pushed their kids away from those jobs to the point that someone with a 2-year degree or apprenticeship in CNC programming or machining will make bucketloads more than your typical 4-year college graduate.

I didn't mean, as in, life in the 21st century in America is bad.

I meant all this shit happening right now.

Terrible. What a terrible time we live in. To me, that sentiment isn't, 'Well, everything's really pretty good. I mean we are better off than most of those living today and, historically, well, we're better off than damn near everyone. But man, this one thing today really pisses me off.'

ok, now turn that critical eye to lobbyists, corporate executives, and politicians who do the will of those previous two groups. How about a similar look to those whose greed takes no one but themselves into consideration.

I'm onboard 100% for some corporate reform, but also realize that greed and corporations have driven most or all of the advances accounting for the things listed in my previous post. If you came up with a formula to define how much the common man benefits from the greed of those in power above him, I'm pretty sure 21st century America would be off the charts compared to history as a whole.

Well, I just hope Facebook gets destroyed out of all of this mess. That's all I want.

But the middle and lower classes are being nickel and dimed to death.

Goverments both fed and state and city are increasing fees and trying to come up with ways to get more cash for their own employees--amazing new "construction zones" here one day gone the next for government employees to guarantee their unrealistic incomes. They are also intruding on private businesses, taking away their services once rendered, and now making it a government service. Example? Portland, OR.

Corporations increasing fees (ComCrap just increased their internet another $3 and even more for other services). Gas prices still high. Groceries still expensive.

It all adds up.

Consumers don't have a voice.

Oh, and what about healthcare? I know friends who are being totally fucked in the ass with this new wonderful Obamacare shit. This still confuses me. Obama is actually CUTTING benefits for many people, and then making them pay their own way.

The US Government doesn't intervene in corporate affairs unless it's a bailout of some sort, and corporations don't complain until they need a bailout.

The OWS had a point, but failed to deliver it.

We need a voice that's more respectable and mission-oriented, instead of some smelly 3rd-generation hippie-fuck who can't take a shit in a toilet and prefers pissing behind a tree.

Most of the gripes you list are more against the government than corporations. And I agree with them for the most part. Our system could be better and arguably has been getting worse, and the fact that it's still better than what most of the world has shouldn't be an excuse not to improve it.

That said, it just rankles when people bitch and moan about how awful things are, to the point that it's basically the ONLY thing they do for several months, as we've seen with OWS. I feel about as bad for someone bitching about not being able to repay their loan for a masters in divinity as I would about some executive bitching that his new yacht was delivered a week late. We ALL have it better than the majority of mankind. If you want things to get better, go out and run for office, put your ideas down on paper and share them, vote for someone other than a Republican or Democrat, hell, do anything productive. Just don't squat in a public park to throw a big, smelly martyr party to highlight how awful your life is, because the first week you pull that off has pretty much disproved your point.

maxfisher
11-23-11, 08:54 PM
Well, I just hope Facebook gets destroyed out of all of this mess. That's all I want.

Oh, and I'm 110% with you on this one.

RoyalTea
11-24-11, 06:12 AM
Groceries still expensive.

source?

Superboy
11-24-11, 06:37 AM
Source? I've seen reports of a proposal by a lobbying firm to conduct a campaign against OWS (for a big fee) but I haven't seen any confirmation that any company accepted there proposal.

The lobbying firms hired a consulting firm, but no deal was reached.

Still terrible, wasn't it?

Superboy
11-24-11, 06:39 AM
Terrible. What a terrible time we live in. To me, that sentiment isn't, 'Well, everything's really pretty good. I mean we are better off than most of those living today and, historically, well, we're better off than damn near everyone. But man, this one thing today really pisses me off.'


Okay, I should have said "what a terrible turn of events". Just wanted to clear that up.

I realize things are better now than in the past, and in other parts of the world, but it still doesn't buck criticism of the situation. Imagine telling people during or immediately after 9/11 to just "suck it up" because life's so good right now.

Jason
11-24-11, 10:11 AM
source?

Ummm, the grocery store?

sracer
11-24-11, 10:13 AM
I'm onboard 100% for some corporate reform, but also realize that greed and corporations have driven most or all of the advances accounting for the things listed in my previous post. If you came up with a formula to define how much the common man benefits from the greed of those in power above him, I'm pretty sure 21st century America would be off the charts compared to history as a whole.
20th century America had a tug-o-war balancing act between corporate greed and the common good of the citizenry. Exploitation of workers required government intervention with labor laws and providing a vehicle for labor unions.

Exploitation of the environment by companies required government intervention with environmental protection laws.

Exploitation of consumers by companies required government intervention by introducing consumer protection laws.

There are other examples as well. The point is that an equilibrium of sorts was established... a stability even within recession/recovery cycles.


But where 21st century America is at now is that we have one side believing that the corporations are "holy" because they are job creators. But that side ignores the fact that many of these jobs are outside of the US and that many of those jobs that ARE created domestically are insufficient for supporting oneself. Which ultimately bankrupts everyone but a few.

The other side believes that the Government is "holy" because they can provide. But that side ignores the fact that the government gets the financial means to do those things by borrowing money or taxing companies/individuals. Which ultimately bankrupts everyone but a few.

Somewhere, somehow, that tug-o-war was broken. Now there are 2 disconnected movements that by themselves (and without the other) that will be unable and unwilling to restore that balancing act.

RoyalTea
11-24-11, 10:28 AM
Ummm, the grocery store?
A century ago, americans spent nearly half their income on food. Today, it's about 15% of their income.

Sounds like food's cheaper than it's ever been.

DVD Polizei
11-24-11, 02:08 PM
Not sure some of you understand the situation. It's not just one particular sector which is throwing Americans off by raising prices, it's the totality of all the sectors raising their prices which keeps most Americans from living on a standard income, allowing them give back to society in a productive manner.

So, we can argue grocery prices are or are not expensive compared to the days when Moses and his People were kicked out of Egypt, but that really doesn't stress the points of current times.

When you factor dozens of sectors (gas, communication (i.e., cell phone, internet, etc.), food, utilities, car expenses, new fees by governments on fed and state levels), you get a very real picture that corporations and governments are sucking Americans dry, and are attempting to compensate their inefficiencies by simply relying on the taxpayer. This can't continue. Our society must have a line that is drawn and a responsibility, or otherwise, our society will indeed, collapse on its face.

Th0r S1mpson
11-24-11, 02:34 PM
I agree, cell phone and internet prices are terrible compared to a century ago.

Today we have a lot more crap we can buy. Some of it we convince ourselves that we need.

Jason
11-24-11, 03:10 PM
A century ago, americans spent nearly half their income on food. Today, it's about 15% of their income.

Sounds like food's cheaper than it's ever been.

none of us were buying food a century ago.

Ten thousand years ago, all food was free. All you had to do was catch it. Would you say food has gotten infinitely more expensive?

JasonF
11-24-11, 04:05 PM
Also, today the hills go both up and down, whereas in my day, you had to walk uphill in both directions.

Now get off my lawn!

DVD Polizei
11-24-11, 04:34 PM
I agree, cell phone and internet prices are terrible compared to a century ago.

Today we have a lot more crap we can buy. Some of it we convince ourselves that we need.

Not to mention, butter is more expensive today. Hell, we made our own 100 years ago! I can't find any willing cows that will give it up for me. :(

TheBigDave
11-24-11, 05:58 PM
Someone's not having a happy Thanksgiving.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/f6TYegabREQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DVD Polizei
11-24-11, 06:28 PM
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/8376/whyturkey1.jpg

JasonF
11-24-11, 07:26 PM
Someone's not having a happy Thanksgiving.

Not in Toronto, that's for sure.

Rockmjd23
11-24-11, 07:42 PM
:lol:

RunBandoRun
11-24-11, 09:12 PM
Not in Toronto, that's for sure.

Wasn't theirs last month? Maybe his library should have included a calendar.

Norm de Plume
11-24-11, 09:47 PM
Ah, SunTV; our Fox News. Watched by about 163 people nationwide.

Rockmjd23
11-24-11, 09:50 PM
Ah, SunTV; our Fox News. Watched by about 163 people nationwide.

That would make it your MSNBC ;)

Norm de Plume
11-24-11, 10:05 PM
Touché, but of course I meant ideologically.:)

Shazam
11-24-11, 10:14 PM
Not to mention, butter is more expensive today. Hell, we made our own 100 years ago! I can't find any willing cows that will give it up for me. :(It's actually pretty easy to make your butter. Just buy cream and shake...

RoyalTea
11-25-11, 05:52 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TC9NcrJvG0I/AAAAAAAAN3Y/S8hwBzi_3uk/s1600/food.jpg (http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2010/07/03/as-share-of-income-americans-have-the-cheapest-food-in-history-and-cheapest-food-on-the-planet/)

RoyalTea
11-25-11, 05:59 AM
none of us were buying food a century ago.

Ten thousand years ago, all food was free. All you had to do was catch it. Would you say food has gotten infinitely more expensive?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Ten thousand years ago, there was no money. But in order to eat, a person pretty much had to spend all their waking hours hunting and gathering. Wake up, hunt and gather, go to sleep. But it didn't cost any money, so that's all "FREE," right?

Sean O'Hara
11-25-11, 08:32 AM
none of us were buying food a century ago.


Alfred Hitchcock's father was a grocer, so someone was buying food a century ago.

kvrdave
11-25-11, 11:10 AM
none of us were buying food a century ago.

Ten thousand years ago, all food was free. All you had to do was catch it. Would you say food has gotten infinitely more expensive?

It's still free today if you want to catch it and gather it. You are really paying for the effort of someone else to provide it for you in a much more convenient fashion.

Th0r S1mpson
11-25-11, 11:13 AM
Wal-Mart has a black friday special on spears and fire pit accessories, for anyone interested.

Superboy
11-25-11, 11:45 AM
It's still free today if you want to catch it and gather it. You are really paying for the effort of someone else to provide it for you in a much more convenient fashion.

But that robs us of the pleasure of killing, skinning, and gutting our own animals :(

Th0r S1mpson
11-25-11, 11:49 AM
But that robs us of the pleasure of killing, skinning, and gutting our own animals :(

Not if you just throw those ones away.

DVD Polizei
11-25-11, 03:37 PM
It's still free today if you want to catch it and gather it. You are really paying for the effort of someone else to provide it for you in a much more convenient fashion.

Realist! :mad:


Wal-Mart has a black friday special on spears and fire pit accessories, for anyone interested.

Racist! :mad:

TheBigDave
11-26-11, 06:10 PM
Occupy Seattle is keeping busy harassing shoppers and vandalizing banks.

Person shatters windows, defaces bank in revenge for Occupy Oakland

Seeking revenge for Occupy Oakland, someone shattered nearly all the windows and defaced a North Seattle Bank early this morning, according to the Seattle Police Department.

Police say someone used a tool to break windows and an ATM screen at the bank, located in the 1000 block of northeast 63rd Street around 2:50 a.m. “Revenge for Occupy Oakland,” was also spray painted on the bank’s southwest exterior wall.

Damages to the bank are estimated to be tens of thousands of dollars.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3971/occupyseattlevandalism5.jpg

http://northseattle.komonews.com/news/crime/693599-person-shatters-windows-defaces-bank-revenge-occupy-oakland

Occupy Seattle visits Walmart's 99%

Mostly, what happens when about 80 Occupy Seattle demonstrators carpool Friday afternoon from Westlake Park to picket in front of the Walmart in Renton is that customers glance at them briefly, and then ignore them.

"It's not your purpose in life to be a consumer!" yells one protester at the people going into Walmart.

Another is dressed in all black, including a ski mask and hood, and says to call him, "Anonymous." He's using a megaphone to tell the crowd about being in "solidarity with workers."

The $30 megaphone was made in China. Anonymous says he would have bought a non-Chinese megaphone, if he had found one for sale.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016859545_occupy26m.html

wishbone
11-26-11, 07:00 PM
Occupy’s message a hard sell at mall
By Herald Staff
Saturday, November 26, 2011 - Updated 4 hours ago

http://i40.tinypic.com/csy2r.jpg
CAPITAL IDEA: A group from Occupy Boston heads through the Public Garden yesterday as they protest Black Friday.

The few dozen Occupy Boston protesters that descended on the Prudential Center on Black Friday weren’t there to score a deal on a flat-screen television.

Instead the group pushed an anti-consumerism message, giving away an assortment of books, used clothing and men’s ties, part of what they called a “Really Really Free Store.”

“Shop til you drop zombies,” one barefoot protester’s sign read.

“Child labor suffering — Now in Blu-Ray!” said another.

Marching down Newbury Street (http://www.bostonherald.com/search/?topic=Newbury+Street), bag-laden shoppers gawked at the group, snapping photos on their phones. None seemed eager to take the Occupiers up on their suggestion to stop shopping and start marching.

Suited employees in Giorgio Armani stood at the luxury store’s door as the protesters marched by.

“I’d love to have everyone who walks by us to take a minute to think,” said Sasha, a 25-year-old woman, who wouldn’t give her last name.

A few protesters entered the mall, shilling their free wares on a blanket and handing out copies of the first edition of the Boston Occupier, the group’s newspaper.

A manager from Boston Properties, which owns the Prudential, asked the group to leave and to move onto the public section of the sidewalk. Protesters complied, and two idling Boston police wagons weren’t needed.

Despite their pleas, protesters seemed realistic about what the stunt could actually accomplish.

“We’re not dumb enough to think we’re going to shut down the mall,” Katharine O’Donnell said.

After about an hour, the group packed up and headed back downtown.

They said the leftover clothing and books would be donated to St. Francis House.http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1383766

An hour‽ Did that include a general assembly on whether to call it a day or not too?

Rockmjd23
11-26-11, 08:10 PM
So is Child Labor Suffering on Blu-Ray or not?

DVD Polizei
11-26-11, 08:33 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TC9NcrJvG0I/AAAAAAAAN3Y/S8hwBzi_3uk/s1600/food.jpg (http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2010/07/03/as-share-of-income-americans-have-the-cheapest-food-in-history-and-cheapest-food-on-the-planet/)

We certainly do have the cheapest food. And it's making us sick and fat. Yes, HFCS is certainly cheap and all of that cheap processed Dinty Moore stew shit, but if you want good food, you're going to pay for it.

I think that graph is rather misleading.

maxfisher
11-26-11, 10:53 PM
We certainly do have the cheapest food. And it's making us sick and fat. Yes, HFCS is certainly cheap and all of that cheap processed Dinty Moore stew shit, but if you want good food, you're going to pay for it.

I think that graph is rather misleading.

Yes, if you want good food, you'll pay for it, either with time or money. If you want to eat well and don't mind cooking, it's not all that expensive monetarily. Of course, if you just want everything instantly available for your consumption with no personal effort, that food will either be cheap or shit, not neither of those things.

RunBandoRun
11-27-11, 09:24 AM
Yes, if you want good food, you'll pay for it, either with time or money. If you want to eat well and don't mind cooking, it's not all that expensive monetarily. Of course, if you just want everything instantly available for your consumption with no personal effort, that food will either be cheap or shit, not neither of those things.

This very subject came up at my table last night when a friend of ours stopped by for some of the homemade lima bean soup I made yesterday. Our friend is a social worker and we were discussing the food stamp program. In my experience, the money provided by that program goes plenty far if you actually cook. If all you do is mix together different processed items and defrost frozen foods, then yes, you run out of food before you run out of month.

By the way, my friend doesn't really like lima beans ... or thought she didn't until she had some soup. :)

OFF TOPIC: I have been dropping weight since the Sarge came home because I'm cooking healthy stuff for her to keep her trim post-deployment figure. Yay!

kvrdave
11-28-11, 12:03 AM
If food stamps only bought the same things WIC does, they would be forced to cook and buy healthy food. As it is, Papa Murphy's accepts food stamps.

Boba Fett
11-29-11, 12:13 AM
I can stomach their refusal to take responsibility. I can take their continuous spewing of hippie nonsense. I can even take them destroying an ugly park. But I will NOT abide them sullying the good name of BATMAN.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Occupy-movement-calls-on-Batman-134652813.html

Mabuse
11-29-11, 11:33 AM
I can stomach their refusal to take responsibility. I can take their continuous spewing of hippie nonsense. I can even take them destroying an ugly park. But I will NOT abide them sullying the good name of BATMAN.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Occupy-movement-calls-on-Batman-134652813.html

WTH! Batman was a rich 1% who maintained the status quo by battling and locking up anarchists.

orangecrush
11-29-11, 12:25 PM
If food stamps only bought the same things WIC does, they would be forced to cook and buy healthy food. As it is, Papa Murphy's accepts food stamps.So does our farmer's market ;)

I was looking at how much money you get on food stamps around here and it is pretty close to our grocery budget (family of 5 with my wife buying mostly gluten free ingredients and healthy food). The problem with food stamps is it doesn't phase out at all. It is you make one penny over X, then you get nothing. You make one penny under X, you get $Y/mo for food. So, you have zero incentive to try and get any extra income that isn't at least 12Y if you are close to making X.

grundle
11-29-11, 04:29 PM
Anyone who thinks they shouldn't have to repay their student debt, is too immature to be attending college in the first place.


http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/46267

Liberal arts vs. science majors

November 15, 2011 by Don Surber

Occupy Wall Street had the liberal arts majors camped out in tents — down by the river — protesting the idea of having to pay back their student loans.

So where are the science and business majors? They traded in their dorms for life in foreclosed McMansions out in California. They are living large, enjoying the Jacuzzi and vino as they work toward degrees for which there is a market after college — at annual starting salaries that in some cases are double what a liberal arts student can expect.

From CNBC: “The finances of subdivision life are compelling: the university estimates yearly on-campus room and board at $13,720 a year, compared with roughly $7,000 off-campus. Sprawl rats sharing a McMansion — with each getting a bedroom and often a private bath — pay $200 to $350 a month each, depending on the amenities.”

So these students have figured out how to cut their housing bills in half while greatly improving enhancing their lifestyles. And who are they? From the article: Heather Alarab, a management major. Jill Foster, applied math. Patricia Dugan, management. Gurbir Dhillon, molecular cell biology. Katilyn McIntire, human biology.

Glenn Reynolds said this may be a sign of the higher education bubble (kids leaving high-priced dorms) or housing bubble (kids getting cheap nice housing). But then he wrote: “Or maybe it’s just a sign that today’s students know a good opportunity when they see one.”

Well, the ones who are not studying liberal arts are.

To my readers, please clip and share this post with your children and grandchildren The world has plenty of pre-kindergarten teachers. What we need are molecular cell biologists. That’s why they are paid more when they graduate.

Unless of course you want your kids to live in tents.


More on this:


http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/news_columnists/jd_mullane/young-occupiers-colleges-sold-you-out/article_d7a41f76-1077-5268-bf8e-e91bcbf4c63d.html

Young Occupiers: Colleges sold you out

By J.D. Mullane | Posted: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:00 am

Q: What does a liberal arts major say to a business major five years after graduation?

A: "Would you like fries with that?"

-- Joke told on American college campuses, circa 1985

A generation of college-educated young people, unemployed and saddled with tuition loan debt, are learning the worthlessness of their four-year degrees.

Many are disillusioned. It's understandable. If you spent four years maintaining a 4.0 GPA by reading and critiquing high-minded literature such as Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury," or pulling all-nighters writing term papers comparing and contrasting jealousy themes in "Othello" and "The Winter's Tale," you cannot imagine there isn't a $50,000 a year job for you somewhere.

There isn't. There are $8-an-hour jobs at the mall that don't require college degrees. So comes a sense of betrayal.

Some of the betrayed have channeled their anger into the anti-capitalist Occupy Wall Street movement.

On visits to the Occupy Philadelphia camp over the last two months, I asked young protesters if A) they had a college degree and B) what was it in?

Of the 50 or so asked, no protester had majored in accounting, finance, business management, math or the sciences. However, plenty had degrees in the humanities, in fine arts and film and in the always vague "communications."

Some courses of study puzzled. For example, standing in Dilworth Plaza among the Occupy tents one evening, listening to socialist speeches, I chatted with a young man who said his degree was in international relations.

"What skills do you have that would get you a job at any of these buildings around here," I asked, motioning to the lit office towers surrounding us.

"What makes you think I'd want to work in any of these buildings?" he said.

Uh -- a decent paycheck?

He told me what kinds of work a degree in international relations would get him.

"I can work at an embassy anywhere in the world," he said.

Doing what?

It's not clear. No matter. He said he would spend another five years in college obtaining his master's and doctorate degrees. He will be 30 when he graduates, carrying about $50,000 in college loans.

He may be among the millions of college grads unable to find work that pays enough to service the debt.

About 44 percent of 2009 college graduates either aren't working or, if they are, have jobs that do not require a college degree and that pay about $15,000 a year, according to The New York Times.

Yikes. What happened, college graduates? Simply, you were misguided by your well-meaning parents. The real culprit, though, is your school. Here's why.

Parents, especially boomers, generally believe that everyone should go to college because a degree is the ticket to a good-paying job. After all, it worked for them. Since boomers are a generation that never wanted to grow up, they live in a higher education time warp. To them, it will always be the 1960s and 1970s when it comes to the value of a college degree.

Your school, however, raked you. When you chose to major in fine arts or history or comparative literature or psychology, did any highly paid college adviser say, "These degrees have the highest unemployment among our graduates."

No, but the college was glad to take your money as it sold you out with a worthless degree.

Marching with Occupy, or holding out for hope and change, or filing class action lawsuits against college advisers won't resolve your predicament. A bitter pill, for sure.

You might want fries with that.

Superboy
11-29-11, 04:39 PM
I think they're just looking in the wrong job market. There are plenty of jobs out there for sociology majors.

kvrdave
11-29-11, 06:42 PM
Hmmm, so hippies tend to be liberal arts majors. No. Fucking. Way.

TheBigDave
11-29-11, 08:48 PM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TlfZSkhN3Rw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

kvrdave
11-29-11, 09:38 PM
:lol: Stupid, but I love it.

TheBigDave
11-29-11, 10:56 PM
The 99% tell the Occupy protesters to STFU.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6WlvoVJ4sUY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:lol: