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View Full Version : 2012 Republican Presidential Candidates - ptII


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Superboy
10-16-11, 12:16 PM
I knew if it wasn't Bush's fault, it would be America's. If it wasn't for Bush and America, Obama would be the best President ever.

As machiavellian as it sounds, he couldn't deliver on things like closing Guantanamo, shutting down the patriot act, etc. It's nice being idealistic but reality is a harsh mistress.

I'm not disappointed in him at all. I knew from the very beginning that either he couldn't deliver or the American people would reject his proposals. Change is tough and someone running on a platform of change just won't ever live up to anyone's expectations, especially in a democracy.

JasonF
10-17-11, 10:56 AM
Fundraising numbers are out:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance?#canda=barack-obama&candb=gary-e-johnson

Whether you compare the numbers to Obama's numbers or compare them to where we were at this time in the 2008 cycle, it is not looking good for the GOP.

CRM114
10-17-11, 11:01 AM
Guantanamo would be closed already if Congress wasn't petrified of losing an election.

Groucho
10-17-11, 11:29 AM
I'm still very doubtful that Obama will be a 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate, though I guess stranger things have happened.I'm not sure why the Republicans are bothering to run anybody against Obama. He caves so often to the Republicans he might as well run as one. I have to wonder, when Boehner comes in his office, does he just bend over or does he at least ask for dinner first?

TheBigDave
10-17-11, 03:52 PM
All aboard the Cain train:

Cain - 43%
Obama - 41%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2012/election_2012_presidential_election/2012_presidential_matchups

TheBigDave
10-17-11, 03:54 PM
Big enthusiasm gap for Obama.

Republicans seem far more excited to vote in next year's presidential elections than Democrats are, suggesting the same sort of enthusiasm gap that pushed the GOP to big gains in the 2010 elections.

The numbers were part of the latest CNN-ORC International poll that found 62 percent of self-identified Republicans were extremely or very enthusiastic about voting for president, while only 48 percent of Democrats said the same thing.

Independents, meanwhile, are the least eager, with just 39 percent saying they're excited to vote, and a whopping 21 percent saying they're "not at all enthusiastic."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2011/oct/17/obama-suffers-enthusiasm-deficit/

classicman2
10-17-11, 04:00 PM
Guantanamo would be closed already if Congress wasn't petrified of losing an election.

Does the president need the authorization from the congress to close Guantanamo?

X
10-17-11, 04:01 PM
Fundraising numbers are out:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance?#canda=barack-obama&candb=gary-e-johnson

Whether you compare the numbers to Obama's numbers or compare them to where we were at this time in the 2008 cycle, it is not looking good for the GOP.If only there were a candidate who could write himself a check for one or two hundred million...

X
10-17-11, 04:02 PM
Does the president need the authorization from the congress to close Guantanamo?Probably not if he keeps the prisoners out of the country.

TheBigDave
10-17-11, 04:13 PM
Bad Lip Reading with Romney:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e9L9A1IMTQo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Navinabob
10-17-11, 06:36 PM
Big enthusiasm gap for Obama.

I think that is always the case. The Dems make up for it with a bigger base but have a harder time getting them all to care enough to go to the polls.

X
10-17-11, 06:55 PM
I think that is always the case. The Dems make up for it with a bigger base but have a harder time getting them all to care enough to go to the polls.Not always...

Barack Obama Leads John McCain in Polls and Voter Enthusiasm

The Pew Research Center's final presidential poll released today looks much like other national likely voter surveys released in the waning hours of this epic campaign: Democrat Barack Obama leads Republican John McCain, 52 to 46 percent, Pew says, with McCain having narrowed the gap modestly over the past month.

But the survey also revealed interesting data about how the campaigns have contacted potential voters and how voters have responded to those contacts—ranging from direct mail and E-mail to automated robocalls.

Think campaigns are getting their money's worth out of the cheap but controversial practice of robocalling? According to the survey, 65 percent of all registered voters polled said they hang up when they receive an automated call and half said the calls are a "minor annoyance." Thirteen percent say the calls make them angry. But candidates may want to take note: Those coveted independent voters are the likeliest to hang up and get angry. Seventy-five percent of registered independents hang up on robocalls and 17 percent get angry.

Pew also found that McCain voters are more likely than Obama voters to receive automated calls, 63 to 57 percent, but Democrats are more apt to listen to the calls. The survey found that 39 percent of Democrats listen rather than hang up, compared with 31 percent of Republicans.

As expected, voters reported a surge in contacts by the campaigns over the past month. Political mailings, the most common tactic, increased 14 percent between October and November. Automated calls spiked 10 percent, and home visits were up by 5 percent—with 18 percent of Obama supporters reporting a home visit, compared with 10 percent of McCain supporters. Twenty-eight percent of registered voters polled said they had received E-mails from the campaign or political organizations.

And in a stark measure of what has been characterized as the "enthusiasm gap" between Obama and McCain partisans, Pew found that twice as many expected Obama voters attended a campaign event—16 percent versus 8 percent for McCain supporters.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/11/03/barack-obama-leads-john-mccain-in-polls-and-voter-enthusiasm61% of Democrats said they were more enthusiastic than usual about voting in this year's election, while just 35% of Republicans said that.

Also in the poll, Obama's fav/unfav is 64%-31%, while McCain's is 59%-35%.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/poll_obama_holds_enormous_vote.phpCheck out the attendance at Obama rallies lately.

Navinabob
10-18-11, 03:42 AM
Not always...

Check out the attendance at Obama rallies lately.

Obama is a bit different as he got more Dems to go out and vote then usual. This might just be me being misinformed, but I recall that even though we have more registered Democrats than we do Republicans in the US, it is traditionally a pretty close race because Democrats usually have more no-shows.

A Republican is more likely to vote out of duty and just go down the list and check off each name with a "R" by it while Democrats ebb and flow depending on the candidate. Is that right or is that another case of "common wisdom" not really being that wise?

classicman2
10-18-11, 07:38 AM
I think the age of the voter is a better indicator of who is most likely to vote.

CRM114
10-18-11, 08:24 AM
Does the president need the authorization from the congress to close Guantanamo?

Probably not if he keeps the prisoners out of the country.

Which would defeat the point of closing Gitmo.

Congress just about freaked out when they were told those scary terrorists would be put into our loving and gentle penal system.

CRM114
10-18-11, 08:26 AM
If only there were a candidate who could write himself a check for one or two hundred million...

Who? Romney? Yeah apparently he has money stuffed everywhere.

And I'm sure Romney is going to blow his entire net worth on the campaign. -rolleyes-

http://images.politico.com/global//blogs/mittbainphoto.jpg

JasonF
10-18-11, 08:33 AM
Rick Santorum says (http://thehill.com/video/campaign/187951-santorum-criticizes-snl-sketch-as-bullying) Saturday Night Live is a mean old bully who should stop making fun of him. Poor Rick. It's so sad that he's being bullied. Maybe he needs to watch some of those "It Gets Better" videos.

CRM114
10-18-11, 08:42 AM
SimCity Games Will Cost $9.99 In Honor Of Herman Cain's 999 Plan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/herman-cain-999-plan-simcity_n_1016131.html) (includes humorous commercial)

Ky-Fi
10-18-11, 08:42 AM
Awesome.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-DrSEyjBj1w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CRM114
10-18-11, 08:43 AM
Nice that Herman chose a hippy, atheist anthem.

Ky-Fi
10-18-11, 08:47 AM
Yeah, that's true, Lennon's lyrics were funnier.

Tracer Bullet
10-18-11, 10:04 AM
Awesome.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-DrSEyjBj1w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I wish to inflict great physical and mental pain on this man.

movielib
10-18-11, 10:14 AM
I wish to inflict great physical and mental pain on this man.
His voice isn't that bad.

classicman2
10-18-11, 10:59 AM
Which would defeat the point of closing Gitmo.

Congress just about freaked out when they were told those scary terrorists would be put into our loving and gentle penal system.

Obama can close Gitmo tomorrow if he so chooses.

He can bring the prisoners to the U.S. and try them in Federal Court if he so chooses.

Let's not let the president off-the-hook on this one - o.k.? ;)

kvrdave
10-18-11, 10:59 AM
Rick Santorum says (http://thehill.com/video/campaign/187951-santorum-criticizes-snl-sketch-as-bullying) Saturday Night Live is a mean old bully who should stop making fun of him. Poor Rick. It's so sad that he's being bullied. Maybe he needs to watch some of those "It Gets Better" videos.

He ought to just be happy someone apparently still knows he's around.

CRM114
10-18-11, 01:25 PM
Obama can close Gitmo tomorrow if he so chooses.

He can bring the prisoners to the U.S. and try them in Federal Court if he so chooses.

Let's not let the president off-the-hook on this one - o.k.? ;)

Aren't you one of the people arguing against trying them in federal court? So on one hand you criticize him for not closing Gitmo as he promised and on the other you don't want him to close Gitmo.

CRM114
10-18-11, 01:27 PM
He ought to just be happy someone apparently still knows he's around.

I still don't understand how Santorum goes from losing his Senate seat in ignominious fashion to thinking he's electable nationwide.

http://happyvalleynews.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/rick-sanctorum.jpg

Sigh
10-18-11, 02:18 PM
Obama can close Gitmo tomorrow if he so chooses.

He can bring the prisoners to the U.S. and try them in Federal Court if he so chooses.

Let's not let the president off-the-hook on this one - o.k.? ;)

Aren't you one of the people arguing against trying them in federal court? So on one hand you criticize him for not closing Gitmo as he promised and on the other you don't want him to close Gitmo.That's not what he said in any way, shape or form. If I apply critical reading skills, I can see that Classicman can be against trying them in federal court and yet have the honesty to point out Obama can close Gitmo and try the prisoners in Federal Court. What Classicman believes should be done has no bearing in whether Obama can close Gitmo as promised.

shadowhawk2020
10-18-11, 07:54 PM
Perry getting openly booed tonight, and everyone is interrupting Romney. This debate has been fun.

dork
10-18-11, 08:45 PM
Perry getting openly booed tonight
Did he go as a gay soldier?

JasonF
10-18-11, 10:53 PM
Obama can close Gitmo tomorrow if he so chooses.

He can bring the prisoners to the U.S. and try them in Federal Court if he so chooses.

Not without violating the law -- Congress put provisions in the latest defense authorization prohibiting the use of federal funds to transfer the prisoners out of Guantanamo or try them in federal courts. If you recall, the administration had planned to try KSM in federal court until Congress prohibited it.

SuprVgeta
10-18-11, 11:17 PM
Dear Rick Perry, please quit with this notion that you can debate Romney. You got dominated every time you came after him.

CRM114
10-19-11, 08:56 AM
That's not what he said in any way, shape or form. If I apply critical reading skills, I can see that Classicman can be against trying them in federal court and yet have the honesty to point out Obama can close Gitmo and try the prisoners in Federal Court. What Classicman believes should be done has no bearing in whether Obama can close Gitmo as promised.

Why would Obama want to do it when all he is faced with is obstruction, whining, and complaining? Obama, as President, can do many things against the will of Congress. It doesn't mean he should do them. Perhaps Obama didn't realize that Congress prefers to keep Gitmo open indefinitely and let those people rot? (Which wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't already release scores of people because they were innocent.)

clappj
10-19-11, 10:01 AM
I wonder if Obama used to call his parents obstructionists, every time that he didn't get his way as a child?

CRM114
10-19-11, 10:08 AM
Why didn't Jon Huntsman participate in the debate last night? Aren't there nutty Mormons in Nevada too?

crazyronin
10-19-11, 10:40 AM
Why didn't Jon Huntsman participate in the debate last night? Aren't there nutty Mormons in Nevada too?

Yes,there are:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m48/conversationpc/happy_harry_reid-728203.jpg

JasonF
10-19-11, 11:43 AM
Why didn't Jon Huntsman participate in the debate last night? Aren't there nutty Mormons in Nevada too?

Jon Huntsman Skips Las Vegas GOP Debate To Campaign In New Hampshire

The Huffington Post Luke Johnson
Posted: 10/19/11 10:39 AM ET

Former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman has called his Republican primary strategy of focusing all of his resources on New Hampshire a "Vegas move."

Except he did not go to Las Vegas with the other GOP candidates to debate.

Tuesday night, he spoke at a town hall in Hopkinton, N.H. "You see, I was offered an invitation to a game show tonight out in Las Vegas," he said to a full house, according to ABC News. "It’s called a presidential debate. There will be sound bites, and there will be talking points, and there will be buzzers."

"I know my friend Herman Cain will likely play the roulette wheel and he’ll be focusing on getting the ball on 999. And Romney will likely be staying at Trump Tower because he’s already won the apprenticeship for the presidency. … I thought we’d come here together and talk about serious issues because I’ve also heard that what happens in Las Vegas, stays in Vegas. And I say that what happens in New Hampshire impacts the world," he said.

Huntsman announced he would boycott the Nevada caucuses after the state moved the event to Jan. 14, potentially threatening the New Hampshire law that requires its primary to have a seven-day window after its primary. New Hampshire has asked Nevada to move its caucuses to Jan. 17 or later.

Huntsman still faces an uphill battle in New Hampshire. He raised only $1,000 from two donations in the state in the third quarter. Recent polling shows support for Huntsman only at six percent in New Hampshire, with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney getting 41 percent and former Godfather's Pizza CEO Herman Cain getting 20 percent. Huntsman blamed "fickle" polls Wednesday morning on Fox News for him not breaking through in the polls.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/jon-huntsman-new-hampshire-vegas-debate_n_1019428.html

Basically, he's kissing up to New Hampshire voters by dissing Nevada voters in the hopes that he'll have a big win in New Hampshire. Since he pretty much needs to get a solid triple in either New Hampshire or Iowa to remain in the race beyond that, and since he's not going to do well in Iowa, it's probably the second most sensible strategy for Huntsman (the most sensible strategy for Huntsman at this point is probably "recognize that your candidacy has not caught on and drop out").

CRM114
10-19-11, 12:26 PM
Huntsman is the same person as Romney. I don't get it.

daniel18
10-19-11, 01:02 PM
I'm glad to see Perry finally doing here what he does best: agressive and negative campaigning.

Artman
10-19-11, 02:50 PM
I thought the debate was pretty hilarious, my favorite moment - Santorum pointing and saying "you're out of time! Your out of time!"

CRM114
10-19-11, 02:52 PM
My favorite moment was when Santorum was attacking Romney for something, Romney had a smirk that said "Who the fuck are you and why are you here?" (Or in Mormon, "Gosh darnit, excuse me, who the heck are you and why are you here?")

kvrdave
10-19-11, 03:41 PM
Didn't watch. How did Cain do?

Artman
10-19-11, 05:08 PM
Didn't watch. How did Cain do?

Brotha remained pretty smooth and came off better than most everyone else personality wise. However he failed to explain and defend his tax plan effectively, and he had to completely reverse something he said in a pre-debate interview (exchanging Gitmo prisoners for an American hostage) first he said he would, than he had to say he definitely would not.

SuprVgeta
10-19-11, 09:18 PM
I'm glad to see Perry finally doing here what he does best: agressive and negative campaigning.

Hmm, I thought the thing that he does best is choking on his own words / stumbling through sentences...

Superboy
10-20-11, 03:15 AM
Didn't watch. How did Cain do?

He did horribly. Everyone was taking pot shots at his 9-9-9 tax plan, and he couldn't muster up any defense of it. Then he tailspinned into an analogy of how state taxes and federal taxes are like apples and oranges - his only works at the federal level. He also stood by his "don't blame wall street, blame yourself!, and white house" view of the economy and unemployment.

TheBigDave
10-20-11, 03:45 AM
Didn't watch. How did Cain do?

He did fine. Most of the candidates took shots at the 9-9-9 plan. But nobody landed a knockout blow. He got the biggest applause of the night while discussing Occupy Wall Street:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bdHW1KvBh6o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Overall, the entire debate was forgettable. The only interesting moment was the Romney/Perry slapfight. And I doubt anyone's going to remember that past the weekend.

Here's a 3-min recap:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pp7vZXIv68Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

benedict
10-20-11, 07:09 AM
I wonder if Obama used to call his parents obstructionists, every time that he didn't get his way as a child?I'm not as familiar as I might be with the system of government you have in the States but I'd be obliged if someone could assist me by way of explaining any constitutional &/or practical distinctions twixt being
a child, and
the elected president of the USA.Many thanks, in advance.[...] Congress put provisions in the latest defense authorization prohibiting the use of federal funds to transfer the prisoners out of Guantanamo or try them in federal courts. If you recall, the administration had planned to try KSM in federal court until Congress prohibited it.May I take it that it was the intention of Congress to represent its electorate by leaving the options of
perpetual imprisonment, or
sundry release. I'll leave aside the possibility of trial in a military court as I'd assume that this is pretty much the same as Option 1.

[EDIT] On reflection, maybe there is the vague hope that non-federal monies could be raised for the purposes of transfer/trial.

arminius
10-20-11, 08:58 AM
After watching parts of the debate I can't believe that these are the best and brightest that the GOP can find. They seem just as clueless as Democrats. Or just as pandering.

CRM114
10-20-11, 09:11 AM
Rick Perry Calls Herman Cain ‘Brother,’ Calls Mitt Romney ‘Sir’ (http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/rick-perry-calls-herman-cain-brother-calls-mitt-romney-sir-video.php)

Th0r S1mpson
10-20-11, 10:09 AM
While it might be painted as racial, I think the "brother" term was meant in good spirits, whereas "sir" was used in a way that was condescendingly polite. It's more an offense to Romney. It would be a bigger deal for Perry to call Romney "brother" in this field than Cain.

dork
10-20-11, 10:28 AM
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/8584/mrcain.png

Superboy
10-20-11, 10:40 AM
Rick Perry Calls Herman Cain ‘Brother,’ Calls Mitt Romney ‘Sir’ (http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/rick-perry-calls-herman-cain-brother-calls-mitt-romney-sir-video.php)

Evangelical Christians tend to do that a lot.

CRM114
10-20-11, 11:01 AM
Call black guys brother and white guys sir?

kvrdave
10-20-11, 11:15 AM
Call black guys brother and white guys sir?

You are bright enough to understand context.

Groucho
10-20-11, 11:20 AM
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2350/desmondhumelost.jpghttp://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3254/71119186553148023073306.jpg

CRM114
10-20-11, 11:21 AM
The context of the discussion or the context of Perry's past problems with ranch names? :lol:

kvrdave
10-20-11, 11:27 AM
Try to stay on track, man.

Th0r S1mpson
10-20-11, 11:57 AM
Some people aren't ready to look beyond race yet.

Superboy
10-20-11, 03:41 PM
Call black guys brother and white guys sir?

Sorry, I should have been more clear:

Evangelical Christians tend to refer to each other as "brother" and "sister".

Cain is an EC, Romney is a cultist, so...

Howie2000
10-20-11, 03:45 PM
Perry has a lot of racist stuff in his track record as Governor but I think calling Mitt "Sir" was more because he doesn't like the dude and if you read btwn the lines with how he said "Sir" I think he would have preferred calling mitt Asshole or something similiar. Him referring to Herman as brother was him thinking they are both on the same team and was meant to be a term of endearment.

Jason
10-20-11, 05:50 PM
Evangelical Christians tend to do that a lot.

At least he didn't call him "boy."













He didn't, right?

Josh-da-man
10-20-11, 10:13 PM
No, but he did say "999? *****, pleez!"

kvrdave
10-20-11, 10:27 PM
Sorry, I should have been more clear:

Evangelical Christians tend to refer to each other as "brother" and "sister".

Cain is an EC, Romney is a cultist, so...

I think Mormonism is odd and quite off, but I don't believe it meets the academic definition of a cult, just the popular definition.

CRM114
10-21-11, 08:20 AM
Sorry, I should have been more clear:

Evangelical Christians tend to refer to each other as "brother" and "sister".

Cain is an EC, Romney is a cultist, so...

I think that's even worse.

CRM114
10-21-11, 08:22 AM
I think Mormonism is odd and quite off, but I don't believe it meets the academic definition of a cult, just the popular definition.

Perry's preacher buddy said Mormonism meets the theological definition of a cult. But I'll leave that up to you religious types to sort out.

Nausicaa
10-21-11, 09:30 AM
I read a funny article which pointed out the 9-9-9 tax plan is similar to Sim City 4, where the default tax rates are all 9%. The best part was Cain released a statement saying his tax plan was not inspired by Sim City.

CRM114
10-21-11, 09:34 AM
I read a funny article which pointed out the 9-9-9 tax plan is similar to Sim City 4, where the default tax rates are all 9%. The best part was Cain released a statement saying his tax plan was not inspired by Sim City.

EA in on the fun.

d58srfL7Ka8

daniel18
10-22-11, 01:39 PM
I think that's even worse.


-screwy-

DVD Polizei
10-22-11, 02:54 PM
Apparently Michele Bachmann's entire staff resigned?

crazyronin
10-22-11, 03:02 PM
Apparently Michele Bachmann's entire staff resigned?

Her New Hampshire staff.

DVD Polizei
10-22-11, 11:43 PM
Oh. No biggie, then.

kvrdave
10-22-11, 11:55 PM
Perry's preacher buddy said Mormonism meets the theological definition of a cult. But I'll leave that up to you religious types to sort out.

:lol: Of course you will.

Superboy
10-23-11, 12:05 PM
I think Mormonism is odd and quite off, but I don't believe it meets the academic definition of a cult, just the popular definition.

I don't know if you missed my sarcasm or not... anyway, some sects certainly are off-the-wall (and i mean that in the sense that they're putting people in captivity and in real danger), but it's no more apparent than Christianity.

CRM114
10-24-11, 08:33 AM
-screwy-

Jesus freaks that consider one set of humans "brothers" and not another set is a pretty sad reflection on themselves and their religion.

classicman2
10-24-11, 08:43 AM
'Brothers In Christ'

CRM114
10-24-11, 09:26 AM
I believe Mormons also believe in Christ. But you would think people (religious people) would be Brothers in God. But I guess each religion has a different God with only Protestants choosing the correct one.

orangecrush
10-24-11, 09:40 AM
I believe Mormons also believe in Christ. But you would think people (religious people) would be Brothers in God. But I guess each religion has a different God with only Protestants choosing the correct one.You don't think a pantheist and a monotheist would have more than a few differences of opinion?

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 10:12 AM
I believe Mormons also believe in Christ. But you would think people (religious people) would be Brothers in God. But I guess each religion has a different God with only Protestants choosing the correct one.

IMO I would consider most sects of faith (from Evangelical, Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, etc.) to be Christian and I am sure most of those in those faiths would agree (with Catholics sometimes considered the exception). Mormons on the other hand, I would not consider Christians. Yes, they have a figure named Jesus Christ in their religion but I would consider it so completely different as to not fall in the standard definition of Christian.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:16 AM
Sure, but you all believe in God so it shouldn't be that difficult to just say we all believe in one God so it makes sense that it's the same one regardless of the particulars of the worship service or book of teachings.

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 10:19 AM
Sure, but you all believe in God so it shouldn't be that difficult to just say we all believe in one God so it makes sense that it's the same one regardless of the particulars of the worship service or book of teachings.

I agree with you when it comes to most "Christian" faiths but the differences with Mormons are so fundamental I doubt they could be easily resolved.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:25 AM
Of course. All Christians believe in the same thing though. I'm talking about religions that don't. The Christian God is the same as the Jewish God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as the Mormon God, etc... I'm not sure why there is a need to overanalyze things and get all hung up on how they choose to worship him.

Th0r S1mpson
10-24-11, 10:33 AM
Of course. All Christians believe in the same thing though. I'm talking about religions that don't. The Christian God is the same as the Jewish God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as the Mormon God, etc... I'm not sure why there is a need to overanalyze things and get all hung up on how they choose to worship him.

Because if someone calls the Flying Spaghetti Monster "God," we have very little in common and I don't believe their belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is what God created us for, even if they call it "God."

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 10:35 AM
IMO I would consider most sects of faith (from Evangelical, Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, etc.) to be Christian and I am sure most of those in those faiths would agree (with Catholics sometimes considered the exception). Mormons on the other hand, I would not consider Christians. Yes, they have a figure named Jesus Christ in their religion but I would consider it so completely different as to not fall in the standard definition of Christian.

And of course Christians are the arbiters of what the standard definition is, so you can privilege certain beliefs above others so as to exclude those groups you don't want to consider Christian.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 10:37 AM
Because if someone calls the Flying Spaghetti Monster "God," we have very little in common and I don't believe their belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is what God created us for, even if they call it "God."

The Flying Spagehetti Monster isn't a bastardized form of the Jewish god, whereas Jesus and Allah both are.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:39 AM
Because if someone calls the Flying Spaghetti Monster "God," we have very little in common and I don't believe their belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is what God created us for, even if they call it "God."

You have the belief in God in common. What am I missing here? Does it matter if someone interprets God as a man, a woman, or as a glob of spaghetti?

(I'm hungry now.)

Th0r S1mpson
10-24-11, 10:42 AM
You have the belief in God in common. What am I missing here?

Belief in God.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:46 AM
That's a cop out. Not unexpected, however.

Venusian
10-24-11, 10:49 AM
And of course Christians are the arbiters of what the standard definition is, so you can privilege certain beliefs above others so as to exclude those groups you don't want to consider Christian.
Each group is arbiters of what the definition of their beliefs are. Mormons belief they have exclusive right to the Priesthood and other denominations of Christianity aren't correct.

Every religion things other religions are wrong, if they didn't, why would they be a different religion?

Venusian
10-24-11, 10:52 AM
You have the belief in God in common. What am I missing here? Does it matter if someone interprets God as a man, a woman, or as a glob of spaghetti?

(I'm hungry now.)

While the physical appearance of God may not matter, the characteristics of God do.

I may call a round red fruit and apple and someone else may call a long yellow fruit an apple but they aren't both the same thing just because people are applying the same label.

kvrdave
10-24-11, 10:52 AM
That's a cop out. Not unexpected, however.

Agreed. I honestly thought there was an answer that you would be happy with. This sucks.

Pharoh
10-24-11, 10:52 AM
The Flying Spagehetti Monster isn't a bastardized form of the Jewish god, whereas Jesus and Allah both are.

Why do you, or CRM, care what groups you don't have any use for label themselves or whom they choose to "allow" into their group?


The whole thing is silly nonsense.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:53 AM
And it looks like our favorite Christian brother is still milking (http://www.parade.com/news/2011/10/23-rick-perry-hates-to-lose.html?index=3) the birth certificate nonsense. :lol:


Governor, do you believe that President Barack Obama was born in the United States?
I have no reason to think otherwise.

That’s not a definitive, “Yes, I believe he”—
Well, I don’t have a definitive answer, because he’s never seen my birth certificate. (:whofart: WTF? :lol:)

But you’ve seen his.
I don’t know. Have I?

You don’t believe what’s been released?
I don’t know. I had dinner with Donald Trump the other night.

And?
That came up.

And he said?
He doesn’t think it’s real.

And you said?
I don’t have any idea. It doesn’t matter. He’s the President of the United States. He’s elected. It’s a distractive issue.


:lol: God, please let these two clowns run against Obama.

http://www.urbanchristiannews.com/ucn/rick-perry-donald-trump-MEETING.jpg

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:56 AM
While the physical appearance of God may not matter, the characteristics of God do.

I may call a round red fruit and apple and someone else may call a long yellow fruit an apple but they aren't both the same thing just because people are applying the same label.

But if I call a round red fruit an apple and you call it a banana, it's still a fruit and we still see it and believe in it. It seems like religion is inherently in conflict. It's part of what makes it work.

CRM114
10-24-11, 10:58 AM
Why do you, or CRM, care what groups you don't have any use for label themselves or whom they choose to "allow" into their group?

The whole thing is silly nonsense.

I care because groups that all seemingly believe in the same deity are in such conflict. I agree it is silly nonsense that I and others are stuck in.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 11:01 AM
Why do you, or CRM, care what groups you don't have any use for label themselves or whom they choose to "allow" into their group?

The whole thing is silly nonsense.

Of course it's nonsense, but as long as people are taking the nonsense seriously in ways that affect my life and discriminating (or worse) against people who differ, we have a vested interest in pointing out the idiocy of it all.

Artman
10-24-11, 11:03 AM
It seems like religion is inherently in conflict.

It is, that's why non-denominational Christians would agree with you on the problems of "religion." We don't hold our simple faith and acceptance of Christ in the same category.

Artman
10-24-11, 11:06 AM
as long as people are taking the nonsense seriously in ways that affect my life and discriminating (or worse) against people who differ, we have a vested interest in pointing out the idiocy of it all.

Your problem is with conservative voters, correct?

Venusian
10-24-11, 11:12 AM
But if I call a round red fruit an apple and you call it a banana, it's still a fruit and we still see it and believe in it. It seems like religion is inherently in conflict. It's part of what makes it work.

Yes, if they are the same in character (substance) but different in name, it is the same thing. But when they are different in substance, it isn't.

JasonF
10-24-11, 11:15 AM
Every religion things other religions are wrong, if they didn't, why would they be a different religion?

:lol: That simultaneously manages to be one of the most profound things I've ever read and sound like a Jack Handey quote.

Groucho
10-24-11, 11:24 AM
As you might expect, Mormons here in Utah are OUTRAGED that people might not vote for Romney because of his religion. Of course, if a non-Mormon were to run for local office, they'd give that person the brush off without blinking.

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 11:27 AM
Of course. All Christians believe in the same thing though. I'm talking about religions that don't. The Christian God is the same as the Jewish God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as the Mormon God, etc... I'm not sure why there is a need to overanalyze things and get all hung up on how they choose to worship him.

I would disagree with you. I would argue that they most certainly are not the "same god". Each may have spawned from the same belief base but went in such fundamentally different directions they are now no where even similar (ironically, I suppose, the two that are still the closest is Judaism and Islam). Although mutual respect is possible there can be no agreement as they are completely separate in most of the major ways.

For instance, Christianity is based solely on the fundamental belief that only through Jesus Christ can you be saved/ enter heaven. They still may include the Old Testament in their bible but it was completely (almost 180 degrees) changed by the New Testament. Although supposedly both Judaism (and Islam) and Christianity "share the same god" it is certainly is not true. The Christian god is not merely the Jewish god mellowed by parenthood.

Mormons are even further away than the first three. They may share a character named "Jesus" but he is completely different, along with practically all of their beliefs. It would be like saying a western and a romantic comedy were the same movie because they both had a character named John Smith.

Pharoh
10-24-11, 11:31 AM
Of course it's nonsense, but as long as people are taking the nonsense seriously in ways that affect my life and discriminating (or worse) against people who differ, we have a vested interest in pointing out the idiocy of it all.

I guess I don't see it affecting me too much to fret about it. Though I suppose President Obama getting re-elected as a result would affect me, so...
:shrug:

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 11:38 AM
I guess I don't see it affecting me too much to fret about it. Though I suppose President Obama getting re-elected as a result would affect me, so...
:shrug:

Have you taken a plane ride in the last decade? Do you pay taxes? Do you know anyone in the military? If you answer, "yes" to any of these questions, your life has been affected by disagreement over whether two conceptions of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are the same.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 11:43 AM
For instance, Christianity is based solely on the fundamental belief that only through Jesus Christ can you be saved/ enter heaven.

Except that there are numerous Christian sects, from the earliest days of the religion right up to modern times, that do not accept that doctrine.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 11:43 AM
Your problem is with conservative voters, correct?

My problem is with carbon blobs regardless of ideology.

Th0r S1mpson
10-24-11, 11:45 AM
So people are different and also have different beliefs. That does not necessitate that all who share a particular belief refer to one another as "brother." That is up to the individual.

Pharoh
10-24-11, 11:50 AM
Have you taken a plane ride in the last decade? Do you pay taxes? Do you know anyone in the military? If you answer, "yes" to any of these questions, your life has been affected by disagreement over whether two conceptions of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are the same.

I don't see those things quite the same. I belief all of those infringements would likely still be in place even if there was no religion. Or they would be replaced with something else just as onerous. Religion is always the excuse.

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 11:55 AM
Except that there are numerous Christian sects, from the earliest days of the religion right up to modern times, that do not accept that doctrine.

I would argue that without that belief they do not meet the definition of "Christian".

The modern incarnation of "Christianity" came into being with the pronouncement of the divinity of Christ in 325 AD. Other "sects" (such as some Gnostics) that don't accept the divinity of Jesus and through him the path to salvation can not be Christian.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 02:12 PM
I would argue that without that belief they do not meet the definition of "Christian".

The modern incarnation of "Christianity" came into being with the pronouncement of the divinity of Christ in 325 AD. Other "sects" (such as some Gnostics) that don't accept the divinity of Jesus and through him the path to salvation can not be Christian.

Ignoring for the moment the absurdity of one group of Christians unilaterally declaring another group of Christians not to be Christians, and privileging that first group's decree over the claims of the second, there's the little issue that what you're talking about has nothing to do with salvation, which is a separate matter with its own history. There are, in fact, many Christians who don't believe that babies who die as infants, or people living in areas where Christian missionaries have never been, will go to hell for not being saved.

Superboy
10-24-11, 02:27 PM
So people are different and also have different beliefs. That does not necessitate that all who share a particular belief refer to one another as "brother." That is up to the individual.

Talk about a can of worms.

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 02:30 PM
Ignoring for the moment the absurdity of one group of Christians unilaterally declaring another group of Christians not to be Christians, and privileging that first group's decree over the claims of the second, there's the little issue that what you're talking about has nothing to do with salvation, which is a separate matter with its own history. There are, in fact, many Christians who don't believe that babies who die as infants, or people living in areas where Christian missionaries have never been, will go to hell for not being saved.

I'm sorry. If you do not believe that Jesus is the son of god and that only through him can you receive salvation you are not a Christian. Period. THAT is the definition.

It is not one group of Christians declaring another anything. There is one definition. I can call a rock a bird all I want, it doesn't make it so.

The real absurdity is two atheists arguing over religion :)

Artman
10-24-11, 02:38 PM
Ignoring for the moment the absurdity of one group of Christians unilaterally declaring another group of Christians not to be Christians

Why is that absurd? I don't know why someone would concern themselves over the in-house debates of a faith they aren't a part of. I certainly don't lose any sleep over sunni and shi'a relations for example.

Superboy
10-24-11, 03:00 PM
Just imagine if that this so-called religious persecution were true. I mean, you'd have to have an offshoot group of Christians so fed up with how they were being treated by the mainstream Christian church that they'd just pack their bags and found a new country. Insanity, if i've ever heard it.

wendersfan
10-24-11, 03:17 PM
God, please let these two clowns run against Obama. I can't believe you actually want Rick Perry to be our next president.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 04:32 PM
I'm sorry. If you do not believe that Jesus is the son of god and that only through him can you receive salvation you are not a Christian. Period. THAT is the definition.

That is your definition. But if someone calls himself a Christian and believes the New Testament while still accepting that God is merciful enough to let a good Hindu into heaven, or that the Trinity is a bunch of extra-scriptural bunkum, you don't get to say that your definition trumps his.

It is not one group of Christians declaring another anything. There is one definition. I can call a rock a bird all I want, it doesn't make it so.

Then where did this definition come from if not Christians getting together to decide that certain groups adhering to the doctrines of the New Testament didn't count as Christian?

Why is that absurd? I don't know why someone would concern themselves over the in-house debates of a faith they aren't a part of.

Because I really fucking hate groupthink and people who go around trying to delegitimize views they don't agree with by saying, "You don't get to call yourself a Foo because you don't believe Bar."

slop101
10-24-11, 05:29 PM
That is your definition. But if someone calls himself a Christian and believes the New Testament while still accepting that God is merciful enough to let a good Hindu into heaven, or that the Trinity is a bunch of extra-scriptural bunkum, you don't get to say that your definition trumps his.I'm not taking sides here, but the problem with that is that religion isn't subjective. We're not talking about opinions of a movie here. If I truly believe X, then Y must be bullshit, regardless of how much it might incorporate X. We can't both be right. I can not believe in gravity all I want, but if I jump off a building, I'm going splat on the ground.

classicman2
10-24-11, 05:31 PM
Of course. All Christians believe in the same thing though. I'm talking about religions that don't. The Christian God is the same as the Jewish God is the same as the Muslim God is the same as the Mormon God, etc... I'm not sure why there is a need to overanalyze things and get all hung up on how they choose to worship him.

Hogwash! The blessings of God were given to Abraham and passed on those same blessings to Isaac - not Ishmael. Isaac passed on those blessings to a couple of his sons.

The Christian (Jewish) God is not the same as the Muslim god.

DeputyDave
10-24-11, 05:46 PM
That is your definition. But if someone calls himself a Christian and believes the New Testament while still accepting that God is merciful enough to let a good Hindu into heaven, or that the Trinity is a bunch of extra-scriptural bunkum, you don't get to say that your definition trumps his.

No.

crazyronin
10-24-11, 05:56 PM
Hogwash!

Man! It has been way too long.

Sean O'Hara
10-24-11, 06:29 PM
I'm not taking sides here, but the problem with that is that religion isn't subjective. We're not talking about opinions of a movie here. If I truly believe X, then Y must be bullshit, regardless of how much it might incorporate X. We can't both be right. I can not believe in gravity all I want, but if I jump off a building, I'm going splat on the ground.

And what is the objective measure of what makes someone a Christian or not? A council held in Asia Minor 1700 years ago? That was just some Christians deciding that anyone who disagrees with them isn't a Christian -- an entirely subjective distinction, as evidenced by the fact that there are still people who call themselves Christians who rejected the decisions of that council.

You might argue that following the teachings of the Bible would make one Christian, but then you run into the issue of what is the Bible -- are Ethiopians not Christian because they accept the canonicity of Enoch and Jubilees? Are Protestants not Christians for rejecting Maccabees?

Hogwash! The blessings of God were given to Abraham and passed on those same blessings to Isaac - not Ishmael. Isaac passed on those blessings to a couple of his sons.

The Christian (Jewish) God is not the same as the Muslim god.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's give a big round of applause for Mister Jack Chick! Thank you for coming, and don't forget to tip your hostess.

Th0r S1mpson
10-24-11, 06:43 PM
I forget what the point of this is, as it relates to the Republican Presidential Candidates. Are we still trying to figure out what it meant when Perry referred to Cain as "brother?"

Artman
10-24-11, 07:02 PM
Because I really fucking hate groupthink and people who go around trying to delegitimize views they don't agree with by saying, "You don't get to call yourself a Foo because you don't believe Bar."

Isn't that called having a difference of opinion? You don't have to like it. (though again I wonder why the interest to begin with) What do you propose we do about it?

orangecrush
10-25-11, 08:30 AM
That is your definition. But if someone calls himself a Christian and believes the New Testament while still accepting that God is merciful enough to let a good Hindu into heaven...You can't believe the whole of the New Testament (especially the writings of Paul) and believe a good unconverted Hindu is going to Heaven without some serious cognitive disconnect.

CRM114
10-25-11, 08:31 AM
I would disagree with you. I would argue that they most certainly are not the "same god". Each may have spawned from the same belief base but went in such fundamentally different directions they are now no where even similar (ironically, I suppose, the two that are still the closest is Judaism and Islam). Although mutual respect is possible there can be no agreement as they are completely separate in most of the major ways.

For instance, Christianity is based solely on the fundamental belief that only through Jesus Christ can you be saved/ enter heaven. They still may include the Old Testament in their bible but it was completely (almost 180 degrees) changed by the New Testament. Although supposedly both Judaism (and Islam) and Christianity "share the same god" it is certainly is not true. The Christian god is not merely the Jewish god mellowed by parenthood.

Mormons are even further away than the first three. They may share a character named "Jesus" but he is completely different, along with practically all of their beliefs. It would be like saying a western and a romantic comedy were the same movie because they both had a character named John Smith.

Wait, wait, wait. Don't include Jesus. We are talking God himself. Why are you so sure the Islamic God is a different God? Because they have different beliefs in who his son was and what his name was?

If what you say is true, you are condemning most of the world's population to an afterlife that does not involve heaven simply for being born in a certain region of the planet. To say their God is not the same force that you call God is getting hung up on scripture and not looking beyond it.

CRM114
10-25-11, 08:38 AM
Hogwash! The blessings of God were given to Abraham and passed on those same blessings to Isaac - not Ishmael. Isaac passed on those blessings to a couple of his sons.

The Christian (Jewish) God is not the same as the Muslim god.

What an incredibly cynical and bleak view of someone supposedly enlightened by the grace of God. I'm happy you speak for God and which people he loves.

Groucho
10-25-11, 08:40 AM
I forget what the point of this is, as it relates to the Republican Presidential Candidates. Are we still trying to figure out what it meant when Perry referred to Cain as "brother?"No, we're trying to figure out if a vote for Romney will send you to hell or not.

CRM114
10-25-11, 08:42 AM
Isn't that called having a difference of opinion? You don't have to like it. (though again I wonder why the interest to begin with) What do you propose we do about it?

Accept that all believers in God believe in the same God even if the dogma is different. There can only be one God and I have a hard time accepting one group calling billions of people wrong based on semantics of a book. Every book (discounting some polytheistic religions of course) talks of ONE God. Why is it so hard to accept that that one God could (and should) be the same regardless of how people worship him?

orangecrush
10-25-11, 08:53 AM
Accept that all believers in God believe in the same God even if the dogma is different. There can only be one God and I have a hard time accepting one group calling billions of people wrong based on semantics of a book. Every book (discounting some polytheistic religions of course) talks of ONE God. Why is it so hard to accept that that one God could (and should) be the same regardless of how people worship him?All of the monotheistic religions seem to teach that people piss off God in one way or another. One of the major differences (as I see it) is how those different religions teach one is reconciled to God. Bible believing Christians hold that you can only be reconciled to God by his grace through faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection as atonement for your sins. Muslim dogma is equally exclusive (though I am not familiar with the particulars).

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 09:41 AM
Accept that all believers in God believe in the same God even if the dogma is different. There can only be one God and I have a hard time accepting one group calling billions of people wrong based on semantics of a book.

Explain again how an atheist logically reasons out that there can be only one God? :hscratch:

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 09:58 AM
Wait, wait, wait. Don't include Jesus. We are talking God himself. Why are you so sure the Islamic God is a different God? Because they have different beliefs in who his son was and what his name was?

If what you say is true, you are condemning most of the world's population to an afterlife that does not involve heaven simply for being born in a certain region of the planet. To say their God is not the same force that you call God is getting hung up on scripture and not looking beyond it.

To start out with, what I say isn't "true" because there is no such thing as ANY god (IMO of course).

What I am saying is "true" as far as Christians go. There is ONLY ONE WAY to reach salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way to heaven. None. Period. Even if you concede that the Jewish "god" is the same as the Christian (or Muslim) one it doesn't matter. Unless you belief includes Jesus it ain't gonna cut it. So yes, a majority of the world's population is not going to heaven according to Christian beliefs.

starman9000
10-25-11, 10:13 AM
Wait, wait, wait. Don't include Jesus. We are talking God himself.

For a large number of (most?) Christians, Jesus is God, you can't not include him.

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 10:16 AM
To start out with, what I say isn't "true" because there is no such thing as ANY god (IMO of course).

What I am saying is "true" as far as Christians go. There is ONLY ONE WAY to reach salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way to heaven. None. Period. Even if you concede that the Jewish "god" is the same as the Christian (or Muslim) one it doesn't matter. Unless you belief includes Jesus it ain't gonna cut it. So yes, a majority of the world's population is not going to heaven according to Christian beliefs.


I agree with your broader point that there are objective standards by which to classify someone as Christian. It's not a hard and fast line, but when 95%or so of the Christian denominations hold something to be true, I think you're getting into the area of "if you don't believe that, you're not a Christian."

But I would disagree with you a bit about this specific question. While Christianity holds that the only way to salvation is through Jesus, there have been many major Christian thinkers and movements that held that Jesus may save people even if they aren't specifically practicing Christians---known as "inclusivism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusivism#Christianity

It may not be the majority Christian opinion, but it's long-standing and mainstream, I would say.

Artman
10-25-11, 10:26 AM
Accept that all believers in God believe in the same God even if the dogma is different. There can only be one God and I have a hard time accepting one group calling billions of people wrong based on semantics of a book. Every book (discounting some polytheistic religions of course) talks of ONE God. Why is it so hard to accept that that one God could (and should) be the same regardless of how people worship him?

I'll play along - ok, different faiths believe they are praying to the same God, but their atonement is insufficient.

CRM114
10-25-11, 10:33 AM
Explain again how an atheist logically reasons out that there can be only one God? :hscratch:

Clear away the dogma of each religion. They all worship God. Doesn't it make logical sense that if God does exist, all religions are worshipping the same God? And if not, how is logical that a majority of Earth's inhabitants chose the wrong one?

I never said there "can" only be one God. I said doesn't it make sense that there is one God and that everyone is worshipping him by different means?

As far as how my personal religious leanings prepare me to make such an audacious comment :lol:, I was once a Catholic if that bolsters my bona fides in the supernatural world.

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 10:43 AM
I never said there "can" only be one God. .



There can only be one God

Venusian
10-25-11, 10:43 AM
And if not, how is logical that a majority of Earth's inhabitants chose the wrong one?

Isn't that what atheists believe? The majority of the Earth's inhabitants have it wrong?

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 10:49 AM
isn't that what atheists believe? The majority of the earth's inhabitants have it wrong?

zing!

CRM114
10-25-11, 10:49 AM
Meaning if there is a God, which there isn't, there is only one. Do you dispute this? Are you saying there is a Christian God, a Muslim God, a Hindu God but it's the Christian God that reigns supreme? A more logical position for Christians would be that there is God, the only God, and the other religions are worshipping something that doesn't exist.

sracer
10-25-11, 10:49 AM
That is your definition. But if someone calls himself a Christian and believes the New Testament while still accepting that God is merciful enough to let a good Hindu into heaven, or that the Trinity is a bunch of extra-scriptural bunkum, you don't get to say that your definition trumps his.
Because after all, truth is relative.





Because I really fucking hate groupthink and people who go around trying to delegitimize views they don't agree with by saying, "You don't get to call yourself a Foo because you don't believe Bar."
Do you believe that all views are legitimate? Do you believe that absolute truth exists?


The capital of Nebraska is indeed Lincoln. No matter how much one would want it to be Omaha, it's still Lincoln. Wishing does not make it so. :)

CRM114
10-25-11, 10:51 AM
Isn't that what atheists believe? The majority of the Earth's inhabitants have it wrong?

Sure, but we don't believe there are any ramifications for being wrong. You believe I will be subjected to something negative.

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 10:52 AM
Meaning if there is a God, which there isn't, there is only one. Do you dispute this? Are you saying there is a Christian God, a Muslim God, a Hindu God but it's the Christian God that reigns supreme? A more logical position for Christians would be that there is God, the only God, and the other religions are worshipping something that doesn't exist.

How is that hard to understand? According to Christians, there is only one god and everyone else is wrong and going to hell.

Venusian
10-25-11, 10:53 AM
Sure, but we don't believe there are any ramifications for being wrong. You believe I will be subjected to something negative.

True. But that has nothing to do with it being illogical that people would be wrong.

Venusian
10-25-11, 10:54 AM
A more logical position for Christians would be that there is God, the only God, and the other religions are worshipping something that doesn't exist.
that is exactly the Christian position

CRM114
10-25-11, 11:00 AM
that is exactly the Christian position

That's what I remember. So my point is and has been why is it so difficult to conclude (just for a moment :)) that the God that is worshipped by a Hindu is the exact same omniscient being that you are worshipping and he doesn't really care about the particular dogmas? Isn't it more comforting to know that God loves everyone equally regardless of what book of tenets they follow? Or is it something about being in some exclusive club with member benefits? ;)

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 11:01 AM
Meaning if there is a God, which there isn't, there is only one. Do you dispute this?

I'm not sure it's logically possible for me to either dispute or agree with that. :lol:

A more logical position for Christians would be that there is God, the only God, and the other religions are worshipping something that doesn't exist.

That is pretty much my position.

sracer
10-25-11, 11:02 AM
That's what I remember. So my point is and has been why is it so difficult to conclude (just for a moment :)) that the God that is worshipped by a Hindu is the exact same omniscient being that you are worshipping and he doesn't really care about the particular dogmas? Isn't it more comforting to know that God loves everyone equally regardless of what book of tenets they follow?
It is difficult to conclude because world religions do NOT worship the same god or the exact same omniscient being. Look at their respective writings, there are so many beliefs that contradict the beliefs of other religions that it is absurd to conclude that "all roads lead to god". but it appears that you prefer a "comforting" lie rather than an uncomfortable truth. You're not alone in that.

CRM114
10-25-11, 11:04 AM
But they ALL have an omniscient being, a creator. The other stuff is secondary.

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 11:05 AM
Isn't it more comforting to know that God loves everyone equally regardless of what book of tenets they follow?

So God is a slightly senile grandfather who is all right with everything and whose outlook is "as long as they're happy, that's all I care about."?

Venusian
10-25-11, 11:06 AM
That's what I remember. So my point is and has been why is it so difficult to conclude (just for a moment :)) that the God that is worshipped by a Hindu is the exact same omniscient being that you are worshipping and he doesn't really care about the particular dogmas? Isn't it more comforting to know that God loves everyone equally regardless of what book of tenets they follow? Or is it something about being in some exclusive club with member benefits? ;)

how do you separate God from the dogma as you call it?

The worshipers of Kali say God wants them to sacrifice humans to her. The worshipers of Yahweh say He doesn't. That is a pretty big difference

CRM114
10-25-11, 11:11 AM
So God is a slightly senile grandfather who is all right with everything and whose outlook is "as long as they're happy, that's all I care about."?

One would hope if you believe in it. Except for the senile part. I was always taught "God is Love." Not "God is Love if you are a Christian."

CRM114
10-25-11, 11:12 AM
how do you separate God from the dogma as you call it?

The worshipers of Kali say God wants them to sacrifice humans to her. The worshipers of Yahweh say He doesn't. That is a pretty big difference

I suppose the easiest way is to believe in God without a religion. Or look into something like Universalism.

Venusian
10-25-11, 11:17 AM
But they ALL have an omniscient being, a creator. The other stuff is secondary.

the other stuff is not secondary

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 11:21 AM
I suppose the easiest way is to believe in God without a religion.


Yes, because then you get all the thrills and "spirituality" of religion, but none of that unpleasant stuff like sin, rules, objective standards---stuff that might give you that uncomfortable notion that you're not awesome just the way you are.

Superboy
10-25-11, 11:44 AM
No, we're trying to figure out if a vote for Romney will send you to hell or not.

No, we're going to hell because we touch ourselves at night.

Anyway, I can't believe all this over someone calling someone else his "brother". For all we know, he could have been trying to be hip and urban!

crazyronin
10-25-11, 11:50 AM
Jesus is a Republican presidential candidate? This is bad news...for <s>the antichrist</s> Obama.

see ya on the Plains of Megiddo. :wave:

CRM114
10-25-11, 12:57 PM
the other stuff is not secondary

Not secondary to God? Wow.

CRM114
10-25-11, 12:59 PM
Yes, because then you get all the thrills and "spirituality" of religion, but none of that unpleasant stuff like sin, rules, objective standards---stuff that might give you that uncomfortable notion that you're not awesome just the way you are.

Pretty much. The love of God should be unpleasant?

Ky-Fi
10-25-11, 01:05 PM
Pretty much. The love of God should be unpleasant?


At times, of course. Who hasn't had an unpleasant yet deserved reprimand from someone who loves them? Would it really be evidence of love if they patted you on the back no matter what path you were going down?

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 01:06 PM
Not secondary to God? Wow.

Since according to Christians the only way to heaven is Jesus then, yes, "God" would be secondary (or the same thing, depending on who you asked).

Venusian
10-25-11, 01:16 PM
Since according to Christians the only way to heaven is Jesus then, yes, "God" would be secondary (or the same thing, depending on who you asked).

Same thing :)

Venusian
10-25-11, 01:17 PM
Not secondary to God? Wow.

yes, not secondary to just saying "there is a God".

classicman2
10-25-11, 02:17 PM
Since according to Christians the only way to heaven is Jesus then, yes, "God" would be secondary (or the same thing, depending on who you asked).

I'm a Christian, and I think everyone who dies is going to heaven.

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 02:32 PM
I'm a Christian, and I think everyone who dies is going to heaven.

Then you can't be a Christian.

Artman
10-25-11, 02:37 PM
How bout those Cain ads? Lol, just terrible...

Breakfast with Girls
10-25-11, 02:58 PM
Perhaps you can take this discussion about religion to another thread?

CRM114
10-25-11, 03:00 PM
Why? Being a Jesus Freak is an integral part of being the Repub nominee. Not to mention the Mormon vs Christian thing is going to be a huge factor.

wendersfan
10-25-11, 03:05 PM
Why? Being a Jesus Freak is an integral part of being the Repub nominee.Mod note: Generalizations of this sort are not welcome here. Also, please stay on topic. If you want to discuss the tenets of Christianity you are free to start a thread on it.

CRM114
10-25-11, 03:08 PM
Generalization? Can you please name any serious Republican candidate who was not a Christian?

As for staying on topic, it's nice of you to chime in 6 pages after someone said Herman Cain called Perry "brother" because of their evangelical faiths.

Artman
10-25-11, 03:43 PM
Generalization? Can you please name any serious Republican candidate who was not a Christian?


That goes for Dems as well. In fact, here's some trivia - who was the most outspoken evangelical President in recent history?

DeputyDave
10-25-11, 04:07 PM
That goes for Dems as well. In fact, here's some trivia - who was the most outspoken evangelical President in recent history?

It's OK, because he (and every other Dem) was lying.

Josh-da-man
10-25-11, 05:24 PM
What good is believing in a God who isn't going to torture people you don't like for all eternity?

kvrdave
10-25-11, 09:54 PM
Perhaps you can take this discussion about religion to another thread?
AMEN! -)
Why? Being a Jesus Freak is an integral part of being the Repub nominee. Not to mention the Mormon vs Christian thing is going to be a huge factor.
But you aren't going to get into religion, right? :lol:

Generalization? Can you please name any serious Republican candidate who was not a Christian?


Can you name a Democrat? If not, tell me how it is a Republican issue. Are you going to go with some version of "the Republicans really believe it because I don't like them, while the Democrats just play along to get votes because I do like them" or is your thinking much more evolved than that? :lol:

CRM114
10-26-11, 08:12 AM
That goes for Dems as well. In fact, here's some trivia - who was the most outspoken evangelical President in recent history?

Absolutely! Most people are Christian. That's why it's funny that it's a generalization given that Repubs need to play it up to the Christian base.

The entire OWS thread is full of generalizations. Hideous generalizations.

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 08:21 AM
The entire OWS thread is full of generalizations. Hideous generalizations.

I agree. A few bad bankers doesn't justify that kind of bashing of the entire industry. :(

CRM114
10-26-11, 08:23 AM
I think you'd be in the minority with that opinion. :lol:

orangecrush
10-26-11, 08:48 AM
I'm a Christian, and I think everyone who dies is going to heaven.Read Romans again. Maybe a couple of times if needbe. ;)

CRM114
10-26-11, 09:10 AM
I'd suggest everyone discussing religion post in the religion threads. I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread any longer.

Shouldn't we be talking about Cain's smoker ad anyway? :lol:

Artman
10-26-11, 10:27 AM
Shouldn't we be talking about Cain's smoker ad anyway? :lol:

The more I see it the more I dig it, and the songs stuck in my head...

Superboy
10-26-11, 11:29 AM
Read Romans again. Maybe a couple of times if needbe. ;)

If you're talking about populist Evangelical Christian doctrine, he should really read Milton ;)

daniel18
10-26-11, 11:49 AM
Jesus freaks that consider one set of humans "brothers" and not another set is a pretty sad reflection on themselves and their religion.


Maybe so, but that doesn't make it worse than racism.


I absolutely cannot forgive the RNC for punishing Florida's Legislature by making it a winner-take-all state. I'll still vote for Perry, but I'll sit out the General election if anybody else is the nominee. I just can't vote for a liberal or someone who has no experience at all, wants to add a national sales tax, negotiate with terrorists, and thinks that saying that he wants to build an electrified fence is funny. Fuck that. I'd vote for Obama before Romney, Cain, or Santorum. At least he's done very good on foreign policy, which is the federal government's main responsibility. Maybe then Marco Rubio will run in 2016.

CRM114
10-26-11, 12:31 PM
The more I see it the more I dig it, and the songs stuck in my head...

I like it too. But I am against smoker oppression in general.

CRM114
10-26-11, 12:32 PM
Maybe so, but that doesn't make it worse than racism.

Which is why they used it as a clever excuse for calling Cain brother and Romney sir.

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 12:33 PM
I like it too. But I am against smoker oppression in general.

Sounds like you would call Cain "brother" and not Romney.

CRM114
10-26-11, 12:40 PM
Old Mitt would be my brother if he needed me. That's how I roll as a secular person.

dork
10-26-11, 12:57 PM
Conversely, what religious person wouldn't want to be Cain's brother?

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 01:10 PM
Perry pitches his 20-20 optional flat-tax economic plan

GRAY COURT, S.C. -- It fits, he says, on a postcard.

Against the backdrop of a plastics factory, Gov. Rick Perry held up a postcard-size form to illustrate the simplicity of his new flat-tax based economic plan.

The code that Perry is proposing would feature a 20% personal income and corporate tax, the elimination of Social Security and capital gains taxes, and the preservation of popular deductions for mortgage interest and charitable giving. Under the "cut, balance, and grow" plan, tax loopholes for corporations would be phased out while the standard exemption for those earning $500,000 or less would be increased to $12,500.

His economic team believes that those changes, combined with deep spending cuts and entitlement reforms including a gradual increase in the retirement age, will encourage so much growth and save families and corporations so much in compliance costs that the budget could be balanced by 2020.

Perry contrasted the single postcard with a dishwasher-sized stack of paper boxes that he said represents the current maze of regulations. (Under Perry's plan, Americans would still have the option to use the existing tax code over the flat tax.)

Without naming rival Mitt Romney, Perry derided his chief competitor's approach to tax reform, calling it merely a rehash of past proposals.

"Others simply offer microwaved plans with warmed-over reforms based on current ingredients," he said. "Americans, however, aren't aren't searching for a reshuffling of the status quo, which simply empowers the entrenched interests. This is a change election, and I offer a plan that changes the way Washington does business."

Perry, who yesterday charged in an interview with CNBC that the president's team does not grasp basic economics, said that his reforms are both bold and realistic.

"We need tax policy that embraces the world as it is, and not what liberal ideologues wish it to be," he said.

Perry is scheduled to travel to Columbia, S.C., later Tuesday to meet with influential South Carolina potential endorsers Gov. Nikki Haley and Sen. Jim DeMint. He will also hold a press conference to announce the endorsement of State House Speaker Bobby Harrell.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/25/8481131-perry-pitches-his-20-20-optional-flat-tax-economic-plan

So, would we pay more, or less?

I'm guessing, since it's apparently "optional" somehow, that it would be a worse deal to take the simplified approach and that anyone smart wll have to calculate their taxes both ways before deciding.

Groucho
10-26-11, 01:13 PM
I'm sure Intuit will come up with some sort of number-cruncher where you put in all your details and it tells you how to file.

But "popular deductions for mortgage interest and charitable giving" will not fit on a postcard. :lol:

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 01:14 PM
Old Mitt would be my brother if he needed me. That's how I roll as a secular person.

I think you're reading far too much into this "brother" thing and the ramifications. You don't have to call someone your brother on a day to day basis in order to be willing to help them out.

CRM114
10-26-11, 01:54 PM
We've had this discussion before that certain Christians don't consider anyone their "brother" that isn't a member of their faith. But I don't want to discuss religion any more in this thread.

Ky-Fi
10-26-11, 01:59 PM
Conversely, what religious person wouldn't want to be Cain's brother?


Okay, that one was pretty good. :lol:

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 02:07 PM
We've had this discussion before that certain Christians don't consider anyone their "brother" that isn't a member of their faith.

It doesn't mean they would abandon anyone they don't consider a "brother," which should be quite clear.

They simply define the term differently than you (relationally to Christ, rather than communally to all people).

You are choosing to judge them based on your own interpretation of the word, rather than what they mean by it.

And yes, I'll move along as well.

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 06:19 PM
I have a really hard time picturing Herman Cain as President. He seems very 1-dimensional (economy, business) but there is so much more to this job. I can't picture him sitting down and having a meaningful discussion with other world leaders, for example.

classicman2
10-26-11, 07:00 PM
I have a really hard time picturing Herman Cain as President. He seems very 1-dimensional (economy, business) but there is so much more to this job. I can't picture him sitting down and having a meaningful discussion with other world leaders, for example.

Since when has a meaningful discussion with other world leaders meant anything? I guess you can go back to Nixon and find some meaning in them.

classicman2
10-26-11, 07:03 PM
Why do some of the Repubs who praised the flat tax when Dick Armey proposed it a few years ago, now oppose something very similar when Perry proposes it?

dork
10-26-11, 07:22 PM
Why do some of the Repubs who praised the flat tax when Dick Armey proposed it a few years ago, now oppose something very similar when Perry proposes it?
They turned seven and learned arithmetic?

Th0r S1mpson
10-26-11, 08:37 PM
They turned seven and learned arithmetic?

That's a fairly immature response to a reasonable question.

Also:
<img src="http://manshopping.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/simoncowell.jpg">

JasonF
10-26-11, 08:44 PM
I have a really hard time picturing Herman Cain as President. He seems very 1-dimensional.

I think you're giving him too much credit.

dork
10-26-11, 09:06 PM
On the plus side, it's good to see that Colbert and Stewart have decided that it's not necessarily racist to mock black public figures after all.

Artman
10-26-11, 09:44 PM
On the plus side, it's good to see that Colbert and Stewart have decided that it's not necessarily racist to mock black public figures after all.

And give credit to Miss Garofalo for bringing the name "Tom" back into style....

Superboy
10-27-11, 05:23 AM
On the plus side, it's good to see that Colbert and Stewart have decided that it's not necessarily racist to mock black public figures after all.

When did they say it was racist to mock Obama? can you give concrete examples?

classicman2
10-27-11, 07:18 AM
They turned seven and learned arithmetic?

At least Perry's plan has a spending limitation to compensate for the shortfall of the the revenue plan.

CRM114
10-27-11, 08:39 AM
I think classicman2 has a crush on a certain candidate.... :)

classicman2
10-27-11, 08:47 AM
No - I just believe in being somewhat fair in my evaluation.

I don't favor the flat tax idea - period.

I ask the question - why do the same Repubs who favored the Armey plan oppose the Perry plan? I think it's a reasonable question to ask.

CRM114
10-27-11, 08:53 AM
It's only reasonable if you remove the facts that he's running for the nomination and anything he says will be challenged by the other candidates.

It's meaningless anyway. All of these cockamamie tax schemes will be abandoned once the general election campaign starts.

orangecrush
10-27-11, 08:54 AM
No - I just believe in being somewhat fair in my evaluation.

I don't favor the flat tax idea - period.

I ask the question - why do the same Repubs who favored the Armey plan oppose the Perry plan? I think it's a reasonable question to ask.Political expediency?

The Bus
10-27-11, 09:17 AM
Conversely, what religious person wouldn't want to be Cain's brother?

Can't we just have a serious discussion about politics here? It seems like every mention of Cain or Obama devolves into thinly-veiled racism.

dork
10-27-11, 09:47 AM
If my racism wants to wear a veil that is its choice, sir.

classicman2
10-27-11, 09:51 AM
It's only reasonable if you remove the facts that he's running for the nomination and anything he says will be challenged by the other candidates.

It's meaningless anyway. All of these cockamamie tax schemes will be abandoned once the general election campaign starts.

Then you favor the tax system we have in place today?

CRM114
10-27-11, 09:54 AM
Over a flat tax? Yes.

Nausicaa
10-27-11, 10:15 AM
I think it is debatable which is more 'fair', a flat or progressive tax code - I tend to favor a progressive system like we have now.

But I don't see how a flat tax will necessarily be less complex. Cain and Perry are bragging how their tax code 'fits on a postcard'. But the fact is, our tax code is as complex as it is for a reason. There are a vast number of ways to transfer money between individuals, companies, and other organizations. And does anyone really believe that a system of deductions and credits much like we have now won't be implemented right quick? How long will it be before our awesome super simple flat tax becomes as much of a behemoth as the current code?

Groucho
10-27-11, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure why people equate "flat tax" with "no deductions". You can have a flat tax with deductions, and you can have a progressive tax without deductions.

CRM114
10-27-11, 10:39 AM
Deductions on a postcard? How many postcards for the schedules?

Nausicaa
10-27-11, 11:21 AM
I'm not sure why people equate "flat tax" with "no deductions". You can have a flat tax with deductions, and you can have a progressive tax without deductions.

Because none of the proposals being discussed mention deductions and the candidates are praising their plans for being, in part, simple.

Basically, and I think I'm stating the obvious here, these tax plan proposals are total bullshit and stand no chance of being implemented whatsoever, and also perhaps suggest that a person's success in running a business does not mean they have the slightest idea how to handle the economy.

classicman2
10-27-11, 01:44 PM
I would favor the 'fair tax' if it included some progressivity - example: The tax on buying a new Mercedes would be at a higher rate than the tax of a VW bug.

The problem with that is it would be a bitch to set up.

Until we have truth in budgeting, we really don't know how much revenue would be required.

Superboy
10-28-11, 09:29 AM
Then you favor the tax system we have in place today?

what exactly do you find wrong with the tax system we have today?

Ghostbuster
10-28-11, 09:39 AM
It sounds like Perry may only participate in one more debate. He claims that there will be scheduling conflicts while he is on the campaign trail. (Of course, he has also stated that he regrets participating in the debates because they are "set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates.")

One of Santorum's aides quipped, "I thought Texas governors were supposed to be tough...How can Governor Perry expect anyone to trust he can take on Obama and the Democratic machine, when he thinks debating his fellow Republicans is too tough?"

Does Perry have a point? Sort of. But I think Santorum's aide has a better one.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/P-hFbuWIKAA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

classicman2
10-28-11, 11:07 AM
what exactly do you find wrong with the tax system we have today?

1. Deductions & incentives

2. It allows U.S. companies to move their operations abroad, and not pay any US income tax.

crazyronin
10-28-11, 11:17 AM
2. It allows U.S. companies to move their operations abroad, and not pay any US income tax.

So why is the Treasury discussing ending some of the taxes on US companies' overseas profits? ( m.cnbc.com/id/44467160/US_May_End_Taxes_On_Some_Overseas_Profits_Report)

Superboy
10-29-11, 11:11 AM
2. It allows U.S. companies to move their operations abroad, and not pay any US income tax.

Maybe if we hadn't chased the away with flaming torches, pitchforks, and high taxes, they wouldn't have left the US!

sracer
10-29-11, 04:33 PM
Maybe if we hadn't chased the away with flaming torches, pitchforks, and high taxes, they wouldn't have left the US!
That's wishful thinking. High tax rates mean very little if many companies can take advantage of loopholes/deductions that cause the effective rate to be much lower.

Labor is still significantly cheaper abroad. We could have a corporate tax rate of zero and jobs would still be moving overseas.

Superboy
10-30-11, 02:29 PM
That's wishful thinking. High tax rates mean very little if many companies can take advantage of loopholes/deductions that cause the effective rate to be much lower.

Labor is still significantly cheaper abroad. We could have a corporate tax rate of zero and jobs would still be moving overseas.

You are wrong. If we just got rid of the corporate tax completely, of course businesses would return to the US. And because government revenues increase dramatically when you cut taxes, at 0% we'd pay off the deficit in, oh, 1 year.

sracer
10-30-11, 08:13 PM
You are wrong. If we just got rid of the corporate tax completely, of course businesses would return to the US. And because government revenues increase dramatically when you cut taxes, at 0% we'd pay off the deficit in, oh, 1 year.
-eek- -> :whofart: -> :scratch2: -> :lol:

X
10-30-11, 10:13 PM
Herman Cain isn't taking the "Bill Clinton" road to the White House, is he?

Cain denies report of sexual harassment

By KASIE HUNT
Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain's campaign denied allegations Sunday that he was twice accused of sexual harassment while he was the head of the National Restaurant Association in the 1990s.

In a statement to The Associated Press, his campaign disputed a Politico report that said Cain had been accused of sexually suggestive behavior toward at least two female employees.

The report said the women signed agreements with the restaurant group that gave them five-figure financial payouts to leave the association and barred them from discussing their departures. Neither woman was identified.

The report was based on anonymous sources and, in one case, what the publication said was a review of documentation that described the allegations and the resolution.

Cain's campaign told the AP that the allegations were not true, and amounted to unfair attacks.

"Inside-the-Beltway media have begun to launch unsubstantiated personal attacks on Cain," spokesman J.D. Gordon said in a written statement. "Dredging up thinly sourced allegations stemming from Mr. Cain's tenure as the Chief Executive Officer at the National Restaurant Association in the 1990s, political trade press are now casting aspersions on his character and spreading rumors that never stood up to the facts."

Asked if Cain's campaign was denying the report, Gordon said, "Yes."

Aides did not immediately respond to whether Cain would make his planned appearances in Washington on Monday. He was slated to discuss his tax plan at the American Enterprise Institute, appear at the National Press Club and hold a healthcare briefing on Capitol Hill.

Cain - a self-styled outsider relatively new to the national stage - is facing a new level of scrutiny after a burst of momentum in the race for the GOP presidential nomination. He's been steadily at or near the top of national surveys and polla in early presidential nominating states, competitive with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney.

The former pizza company executive has been pointing to his long record in business to argue that he has the credentials needed to be president during a time of economic strife.

In its report, Politico said it confronted Cain early Sunday outside of the CBS News Washington bureau, where he had just been interviewed on "Face the Nation."

"I am not going to comment on that," he told Politico when asked specifically about one of the woman's claims.

When asked if he had ever been accused of harassment by a woman, he responded, Politico said, by asking the reporter, "Have you ever been accused of sexual harassment?"

A message seeking comment from Peter Kilgore, listed on the National Restaurant Association website as its chief legal counsel, was not immediately returned.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CAIN_HARASSMENT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-30-20-54-16I can't wait until his wife starts quoting Tammy Wynette. That means he'll be the next president!

JasonF
10-30-11, 10:31 PM
Nicely done, X. You nicely avoided commenting on the allegations against Mr. Cain, instead reminding everyone that Bill Clinton is an adulterer. Plus, you threw in a gratuitous potshot at Hillary Clinton! The only thing standing between you and a perfect score is the fact that you didn't include the word "clenis."

X
10-30-11, 10:44 PM
I think my opinions and propensity to (not) vote for sleazebags and their enablers is well enough known to believe my comments are quite adequate as they stand. I also think my opinion of what happens to those people is expressed quite succinctly.

classicman2
10-31-11, 07:16 AM
Regardless of whether the allegations are true or false or something in between, the Cain campaign has handled the allegations terribly. They had better get out in front of this or he's finished.

Jason
10-31-11, 08:56 AM
Nicely done, X. You nicely avoided commenting on the allegations against Mr. Cain, instead reminding everyone that Bill Clinton is an adulterer. Plus, you threw in a gratuitous potshot at Hillary Clinton! The only thing standing between you and a perfect score is the fact that you didn't include the word "clenis."

Clinton wasn't just sexually harassing women, he was plowing most of them. I seem to recall an influential black man in the early 90's who ran into a similar spot of trouble, though.

DeputyDave
10-31-11, 09:29 AM
I wonder if a Clinton-like dark horse is even possible in this environment?

Navinabob
10-31-11, 11:49 AM
Ahhh... so it appears we will be hearing more about the 7" stimulus package Cain has under his belt anytime now. Someone close to the situation is leaking it.

Cain Plays the Victim Card

In May, Herman Cain told the Washington Examiner's Byron York that liberals were going to target him because he was black. “They're going to come after me more viciously than they would a white candidate," he said, continuing, “And so, to use Clarence Thomas as an example, I'm ready for the same high-tech lynching that he went through—for the good of this country.”

Obviously, Cain had reason to know what was coming. Yesterday, Politico broke a story about past charges of sexual harassment against the GOP frontrunner. “During Herman Cain's tenure as the head of the National Restaurant Association in the 1990s, at least two female employees complained to colleagues and senior association officials about inappropriate behavior by Cain, ultimately leaving their jobs at the trade group, multiple sources confirm to POLITICO,” the piece began. The restaurant group ultimately settled with the women, who took five-figure payouts and signed non-disclosure agreements.

Details of the alleged harassment were vague—according to Politico, it included “conversations allegedly filled with innuendo or personal questions of a sexually suggestive nature, taking place at hotels during conferences, at other officially sanctioned restaurant association events and at the association's offices.” Cain's campaign denies there was harassment, but not that there were accusations and settlements.

Back in May, Cain telegraphed how he was going to deal with these charges: play the martyr under assault by racist, hypocritical liberals. "Sadly, we've seen this movie played out before—a prominent Conservative targeted by liberals simply because they disagree with his politics,” said a statement by his campaign yesterday. The Thomas reference seemed clear.

Of course, as Jane Mayer and Jill Abramson show in Strange Justice: The Selling of Clarence Thomas, the Supreme Court justice was almost certainly guilty of harassing Anita Hill. But on the right, the conviction that Thomas was a victim is close to sacrosanct. As Larry Schweikart and Michael Allen wrote in their bestselling A Patriot's History of the United States, “Thomas was representative of a new class of African Americans who had become successful and prosperous with minimal, if any, aid from government. As such, he represented a significant threat to the civil rights establishment, whose central objective remained lobbying for government action on behalf of those it claimed to represent.”

Cain's best hope lies in presenting himself as the victim of a similar left-wing conspiracy. Never mind that Politico is hardly a beacon of progressivism—of the four reporters who wrote the Cain story, one, Maggie Haberman, came to Politico from Rupert Murdoch's New York Post, and another, Jonathan Martin, previously worked at The National Review. The tip about Cain is far more likely to have originated with one of his Republican rivals than with Democrats, who are happy to see Cain in the lead in the GOP primaries, making his party look ridiculous.

Still, at least some on the right are eager to rush to Cain's defense. Indeed, with grim predictability, the same conservatives who usually regard accusations of anti-black discrimination as manipulative whining have suddenly discovered a newfound sensitivity to racial prejudice. “Liberals are terrified of Herman Cain,” Ann Coulter told Fox News. “He is a strong conservative black man. Look at the way they go after Allen West and Michael Steele and they aren't even running against Obama. They are terrified of strong, conservative, black men.”

As Sarah Palin demonstrated, the GOP base is eager to rally around those who seem to be victimized by a mainstream media they hate. But as Palin also demonstrated, eventually, evidence of venality and incompetence seeps in with the public at large. If Cain ever had a serious shot at the presidency, these charges would certainly hurt him. But he didn't. The only thing Cain has to gain from this race is the mantle of conservative folk hero, and maybe Fox News contributor. And in that campaign, it looks like he's still doing just fine.

DeputyDave
10-31-11, 11:59 AM
Ahhh... so it appears we will be hearing more about the 7" stimulus package Cain has under his belt anytime now. Someone close to the situation is leaking it.

Do you have a link? Where is that from?

And I'm sure it will be sold as a 9" package.

Patman
10-31-11, 12:38 PM
It's ain't called the 999 plan for nuthin'!

Navinabob
10-31-11, 01:13 PM
Do you have a link? Where is that from?

And I'm sure it will be sold as a 9" package.

Doh... I meant to say 9"! Although since I blew the joke, now I can at least say I blew Cain's 9" package.

And the link:

http://powerwall.msnbc.msn.com/politics/cain-plays-the-victim-card-1705997.story

DeputyDave
10-31-11, 02:04 PM
Doh... I meant to say 9"! Although since I blew the joke, now I can at least say I blew Cain's 9" package.

And the link:

http://powerwall.msnbc.msn.com/politics/cain-plays-the-victim-card-1705997.story

I wondered where the 7 inches came from. It was very specific without being funny. I was guessing some "inside info" you had.

JasonF
10-31-11, 02:36 PM
When was the last time a presidential candidate broke into song at the National Press Club?
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JumpCutz
10-31-11, 02:45 PM
Supposedly he's singing Moon River at one of the December Republican debates. :thumbsup:

slop101
10-31-11, 03:13 PM
"Sadly, we've seen this movie played out before—a prominent Conservative targeted by liberals simply because they disagree with his politics,” And yet pretty much every time that there's even so much as just a whiff of sexual impropriety by a politician (Right or Left), it invariably turns out to be true, pretty much every time.

Navinabob
10-31-11, 04:37 PM
I wondered where the 7 inches came from. It was very specific without being funny. I was guessing some "inside info" you had.

My only inside information on Cain is he has soft hands and smells a bit like peaches after he comes out of the shower. I avert my gaze from his penis out of modesty.

DeputyDave
10-31-11, 04:58 PM
My only inside information on Cain is he has soft hands and smells a bit like peaches after he comes out of the shower. I avert my gaze from his penis out of modesty.

"Soft hands" for a black man you mean? Racist.

Navinabob
10-31-11, 05:08 PM
"Soft hands" for a black man you mean? Racist.

:lol:

JumpCutz
10-31-11, 05:40 PM
More trouble for Cain. Just in:

CAIN MORNING FROM HELL UPDATE II

As if there weren't enough problems for Herman Cain today, there's a pretty damning report out of Wisconsin that suggests -- actually, it comes very close to establishing -- that a not-for-profit run by Cain campaign manager Mark Block was paying for Cain's campaign expenses earlier this year after Cain had already set up his official presidential campaign committee, which would be a violation of all kinds of election and campaign finance laws.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

Superboy
10-31-11, 05:41 PM
-eek- -> :whofart: -> :scratch2: -> :lol:

You forgot -screwy-

JasonF
10-31-11, 05:49 PM
Was Rick Perry drunk when he made this speech?
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JumpCutz
10-31-11, 05:56 PM
It won't be long before we see Cain on TMZ....and then next season's Dancing with the Stars.

JumpCutz
10-31-11, 05:58 PM
Was Rick Perry drunk when he made this speech?
7M4gz97Y9W8

rotfl :lol: WTF? :whofart:

DeputyDave
10-31-11, 06:04 PM
It won't be long before we see Cain on TMZ....and then next season's Dancing with the Stars.

Dancing with Bristol! Gawd, that would be the dream.

I like Cain more than Romney but I doubt he can win. Who knows, though, Ross Perot proved some things in 1992. Cain could be the new Ross (without the crazy and the quiting).

Artman
10-31-11, 06:23 PM
Cain's crust is cooked! He'll have to go Chicago style if he's gonna stay in the deep dish end of this race...

JasonF
10-31-11, 06:51 PM
Cain could be the new Ross (without the crazy).

Challenge!

Superboy
10-31-11, 06:53 PM
Was Rick Perry drunk when he made this speech?
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Conservatives should just stop trying to do comedy.

kvrdave
10-31-11, 07:09 PM
I do not yet see anything that worries me about Cain. Sexual harassment charges that ended in nothing? The campaign finance thing won't do much either if there is a decent explanation. Maybe he will or won't weather the storm, but none of this bothers me much.

CRM114
10-31-11, 07:10 PM
You are wrong. If we just got rid of the corporate tax completely, of course businesses would return to the US. And because government revenues increase dramatically when you cut taxes, at 0% we'd pay off the deficit in, oh, 1 year.

This is sarcasm, right? Right? :lol: