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View Full Version : Imagine all the hippies' heads exploding: John Lennon a Reagnite?


DJLinus
06-29-11, 07:45 PM
I figured given the nature of this story, it belonged here rather in Music Talk...

Lennon was a closet Republican: Assistant
WENN.com
First posted: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:35:03 EDT PM
John Lennon John Lennon was a Ronald Reagan fan who enjoyed arguing with left-wing radicals, according to his former assistant.

John Lennon was a closet Republican, who felt a little embarrassed by his former radicalism, at the time of his death - according to the tragic Beatles star's last personal assistant.

Fred Seaman worked alongside the music legend from 1979 to Lennon's death at the end of 1980 and he reveals the star was a Ronald Reagan fan who enjoyed arguing with left-wing radicals who reminded him of his former self.

In new documentary Beatles Stories, Seaman tells filmmaker Seth Swirsky Lennon wasn't the peace-loving militant fans thought he was while he was his assistant.

He says, "John, basically, made it very clear that if he were an American he would vote for Reagan because he was really sour on (Democrat) Jimmy Carter.

"He'd met Reagan back, I think, in the 70s at some sporting event... Reagan was the guy who had ordered the National Guard, I believe, to go after the young (peace) demonstrators in Berkeley, so I think that John maybe forgot about that... He did express support for Reagan, which shocked me.

"I also saw John embark in some really brutal arguments with my uncle, who's an old-time communist... He enjoyed really provoking my uncle... Maybe he was being provocative... but it was pretty obvious to me he had moved away from his earlier radicalism.

"He was a very different person back in 1979 and 80 than he'd been when he wrote Imagine. By 1979 he looked back on that guy and was embarrassed by that guy's naivete."

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/28/lennon-was-a-closet-republican-assistant

I don't know if I buy this. On one hand, who is this assistant and how close was he? Was Lennon just having fun with him? Why disclose this now? On other other, if Lennon really did change his views, I could see Yoko and everyone else close to him keeping mum about it, so as not to "tarnish" his hippie legacy. (See David Mamet's recent "coming out" as a conservative.)

Still, it reminds me of one of my favorite Elvis Costello lines: "Was it a millionaire who said 'imagine no possessions'?" (Man, I can't wait to see his concert next month.)

Also, the story is a bit sensationalistic. One can vote (or here, support) a candidate without actually identifying oneself as a member of that candidate's party. Lennon didn't believe in parties. He just believed in him!

BKenn01
06-29-11, 08:05 PM
If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain. - Winston Churchill.

I was a Conservative at 20 and became a Libertarian in my 40's:shrug:

Rockmjd23
06-29-11, 08:38 PM
To be fair, voting for Reagan because of being soured by Carter in 1980 didn't make you a Reaganite. Judging by the results, a lot of people were soured by Carter.

X
06-29-11, 08:41 PM
To be fair, voting for Reagan because of being soured by Carter in 1980 didn't make you a Reaganite. Judging by the results, a lot of people were soured by Carter.Yes, but they were so soured on him they didn't vote for another one until 2008.

That's probably a generational thing. Unfortunately, every generation needs a "Carter". Just like we need a pure communist country as an example of how great that is. Sure sucks for the people living under the example though.

Rockmjd23
06-29-11, 08:46 PM
Yes, but they were so soured on him they didn't vote for another one until 2008.
The average american voter doesn't give a crap about the ideology of the candidate they vote for. If their finances are bad, vote in the other guy.

Norm de Plume
06-29-11, 08:50 PM
If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain. - Winston Churchill.
Conservatives like to pull out that quote (along with "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...") at any opportunity, but it doesn't help their cause because it's not only stupid but incidentally insults both liberals and them.
It seems the corollaries to the facile contentions contained therein are that conservatives are heartless and liberals are brainless (or lack fiscal sense, is what I'm assuming was to be extrapolated).
"Idealism and compassion are for the young and untested, those who haven't yet dealt with twenty years of working hard, raising a family, and paying damned taxes so society's poor and lazy can leech off the system." What simple-minded folderol!

Groucho
06-29-11, 08:58 PM
Conservatives like to pull out that quote (along with "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...") at any opportunity, but it doesn't help their cause because it's not only stupid but incidentally insults both liberals and them.Also, it's not even a Churchill quote. Indeed, Churchill's own transition was just the opposite.

Numanoid
06-29-11, 09:05 PM
Yes, but they were so soured on him they didn't vote for another one until 2008.I don't understand this. Who is "they" and what is the "another one"?

Pizza
06-29-11, 09:10 PM
Oh...my...head...it's...e...

JasonF
06-29-11, 09:17 PM
John Lennon: NOT a Closet Republican
Jon Wiener
June 29, 2011


A guy named Fred Seaman is all over the conservative blogs today for a new documentary in which he claims that John Lennon was “a closet Republican” at the time he was shot. This seems unlikely.

First of all, who is Fred Seaman? He’d been a personal assistant to John and Yoko at the Dakota in the late seventies, but he’s also a convicted criminal. He was found guilty of stealing John Lennon’s personal belongings, including his diaries, after Lennon had been killed. He was sentenced to five years probation.

You might say that weakens his credibility.

What exactly were Lennon’s political views at the end of 1980? Late that November, Lennon spoke out on behalf of striking workers in Los Angeles and San Francisco. (The story is told in my book Come Together: John Lennon in His Time.) The strike was against Japan Foods Corporation, a subsidiary of the Japanese multinational Kikkoman, best known for its soy sauce. The US workers, primarily Japanese, were members of the Teamsters. In LA and San Francisco, they went on strike for higher wages. The shop steward of the LA local, Shinya Ono, persuaded John and Yoko to make a public statement addressed to the striking workers:

“We are with you in spirit.… In this beautiful country where democracy is the very foundation of its constitution, it is sad that we have to still fight for equal rights and equal pay for the citizens. Boycott it must be, if it is the only way to bring justice and restore the dignity of the constitution for the sake of all citizens of the US and their children.

“Peace and love, John Lennon and Yoko Ono. New York City, December, 1980.”

That was Lennon’s last written political statement. It doesn’t seem to be the work of a “closet Republican.”

Seaman says Lennon told him he was disillusioned with Jimmy Carter in 1980. Lots of people on the left were disillusioned with Jimmy Carter in 1980, and for good reasons. That didn't make you a Republican, closeted or otherwise.

In what turned out to be Lennon’s last interview, with RKO radio the afternoon of the day he was shot, he talked about “the opening up of the sixties.” He said “Maybe in the sixties we were nave and like children and later everyone when back to their rooms and said, ‘we didn’t get a wonderful world of flowers and peace.… the world is a nasty horrible place because it didn’t give use everything we cried for.’ Right? Crying for it wasn’t enough.

“The thing the sixties did was show us the possibility and the responsibility that we all had. It wasn’t the answer. It just gave us a glimpse of the possibility.”

That interview was his last. Six hours later he was killed.

Fred Seaman tried to cash in on his Lennon connection with an earlier book, published twenty years ago. That one has been forgotten. This story will be too.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/161751/john-lennon-not-closet-republican

al_bundy
06-29-11, 09:19 PM
Lennon lived in one of the most exclusive co-op buildings in NYC. I think Madonna lives in the same building.

The real millionaire hippies live in Greenwich village

X
06-29-11, 09:34 PM
I don't understand this. Who is "they" and what is the "another one"?"Another one" is an empty suit upon whom we project our hopes and dreams, thinking that that is what makes a difference and a great leader.

"They" are the American public. Not to mention the Nobel committee. They took longer in awarding the prize to Carter but their award to him was ultimately just as warranted as it was to Obama.

Josh-da-man
06-29-11, 09:57 PM
Also, it's not even a Churchill quote. Indeed, Churchill's own transition was just the opposite.

Next thing, you're going to tell me George Carlin didn't write that "I'm a Bad American" thing I get in the e-mail about once a month from one of my relatives.

Numanoid
06-29-11, 09:57 PM
"Another one" is an empty suit upon whom we project our hopes and dreams, thinking that that is what makes a difference and a great leader.

"They" are the American public. Not to mention the Nobel committee. They took longer in awarding the prize to Carter but their award to him was ultimately just as warranted as it was to Obama.Wait, it's a Nobel prize thing? Don't you think that might have been worth mentioning in your original post?

X
06-29-11, 10:15 PM
I just added that after thinking about it a bit. The Nobel Prizes wouldn't have happened if we suckers hadn't fallen for the dream.

Supermallet
06-29-11, 10:28 PM
Fred Seaman, iirc, has made many outrageous claims about Lennon before.

PopcornTreeCt
06-29-11, 10:29 PM
Eh, I don't see how this would be a big deal. It would be like finding out that super charming, lady killing Cary Grant was actually gay.

kvrdave
06-29-11, 11:09 PM
Conservatives like to pull out that quote (along with "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...") at any opportunity, but it doesn't help their cause because it's not only stupid but incidentally insults both liberals and them.
It seems the corollaries to the facile contentions contained therein are that conservatives are heartless and liberals are brainless (or lack fiscal sense, is what I'm assuming was to be extrapolated).
"Idealism and compassion are for the young and untested, those who haven't yet dealt with twenty years of working hard, raising a family, and paying damned taxes so society's poor and lazy can leech off the system." What simple-minded folderol!

Hmmm, I have always taken it to mean "the young don't have the experience to intelligently understand what true compassion looks like" but I suppose your view is equally valid.

kvrdave
06-29-11, 11:23 PM
:lol: Hadn't thought of that angle.

adamblast
06-29-11, 11:24 PM
Oops; sorry. I deleted my message. Reason: weak sauce.

Hank Ringworm
06-29-11, 11:27 PM
Conservatives like to pull out that quote (along with "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...") at any opportunity, but it doesn't help their cause because it's not only stupid but incidentally insults both liberals and them.
It seems the corollaries to the facile contentions contained therein are that conservatives are heartless and liberals are brainless (or lack fiscal sense, is what I'm assuming was to be extrapolated).
"Idealism and compassion are for the young and untested, those who haven't yet dealt with twenty years of working hard, raising a family, and paying damned taxes so society's poor and lazy can leech off the system." What simple-minded folderol!

I agree.

Dr Mabuse
06-29-11, 11:27 PM
Also, it's not even a Churchill quote. Indeed, Churchill's own transition was just the opposite.

Well... not really.

Supermallet
06-29-11, 11:28 PM
Also, Seaman. Hur hur.

Numanoid
06-29-11, 11:51 PM
Hmmm, I have always taken it to mean "the young don't have the experience to intelligently understand what true compassion looks like" but I suppose your view is equally valid.I have always taken it to mean that as you get older, you sell out.

Dr Mabuse
06-29-11, 11:52 PM
The hippies were right!

Don't trust anyone over 30!

kvrdave
06-29-11, 11:57 PM
Oops; sorry. I deleted my message. Reason: weak sauce.

:lol: Perfect, now I look like the retarded psycho.

Suprmallet is off the hook. :(

JasonF
06-30-11, 01:09 AM
:lol: Perfect, now I look like the retarded psycho.

"Now"?

Groucho
06-30-11, 01:11 AM
Fred Seaman, iirc, has made many outrageous claims about Lennon before.And when he was alive, Lennon was quoted that he wished he could just get Seaman out of his hair.

Supermallet
06-30-11, 01:14 AM
:lol: Perfect, now I look like the retarded psycho.

Suprmallet is off the hook. :(

Durr *pants heavily*

CRM114
06-30-11, 08:18 AM
I just added that after thinking about it a bit. The Nobel Prizes wouldn't have happened if we suckers hadn't fallen for the dream.

Humorous to think many think John McCain would have provided better leadership than the 'empty suit.'

kvrdave
06-30-11, 09:29 AM
Humorous to think many think John McCain would have provided better leadership than the 'empty suit.'

Oh man, John McCain would have sucked bad. I sure couldn't vote for him. But yeah, I have to believe that he would have privided better leadership than Obama. I will say that Obama is leading 57 states instead of just 50, so maybe that is taking his attention.

Hell, with no president we'd have better leadership.

wendersfan
06-30-11, 09:52 AM
Yes, but they were so soured on him they didn't vote for another one until 2008.You mean until 1980.

Of any president in my lifetime Reagan was by far the closest to an 'empty suit.'

Tracer Bullet
06-30-11, 10:05 AM
You mean until 1980.

Of any president in my lifetime Reagan was by far the closest to an 'empty suit.'

Yeah, I had to :lol: at the idea that Obama is an "empty suit."

I don't even think that Bush II was an empty suit. He was smarter than people gave him credit for. Terrible president, but not stupid.

Ky-Fi
06-30-11, 10:42 AM
I think Reagan understood basic conservative principles and was able to articulate them fairly well. Of fairly recent presidents, I'd probably rank Clinton and Carter as the smartest, I'd rank Bush 1 and Obama about the same. I'd definitely put GW at the bottom---a very dim bulb, IMO.

X
06-30-11, 11:05 AM
You mean until 1980.

Of any president in my lifetime Reagan was by far the closest to an 'empty suit.'Sorry to disagree, but I don't think of a person who displays real leadership as an empty suit.

Josh-da-man
06-30-11, 11:51 AM
You mean until 1980.

Of any president in my lifetime Reagan was by far the closest to an 'empty suit.'

I'm a bit too young to really remember the Reagan presidency, but I do know of his reputation as "the great communicator."

Which is strange, considering that every time I see old clips of him on the History Channel or something, he always come across like the Balok puppet in "The Corbomite Maneuver."

Navinabob
06-30-11, 12:18 PM
Carter had an IQ of 176. He's probably the smartest President we've ever had (or will every have)

X
06-30-11, 12:35 PM
Carter had an IQ of 176. He's probably the smartest President we've ever had (or will every have)And one of the worst leaders we've ever had.

orangecrush
06-30-11, 12:39 PM
Carter had an IQ of 176. He's probably the smartest President we've ever had (or will every have)Which is a great example of the fact that once a perception of you is created, it is very hard to shake regardless of the facts.

Mabuse
06-30-11, 12:46 PM
Seaman says that Lennon liked Reagan because he hated Carter (just like everybody in 1980) and that Lennon was dismissive and abrasive with Seamon's father, some old time 1920's commie. This hardly makes him a conservative. And thank God for that. As a conservative I wouldn't want John Lennon on my side.

"He was a very different person back in 1979 and 80 than he'd been when he wrote Imagine. By 1979 he looked back on that guy and was embarrassed by that guy's naivete." I certainly have always been embarrassed by his naivete.

classicman2
06-30-11, 12:54 PM
You mean until 1980.

Of any president in my lifetime Reagan was by far the closest to an 'empty suit.'

Whether he was an empty suit or not, I suppose, is debatable.

He did restore some confindence in the American people that this country was great after a period when America didn't appear to be so great.

classicman2
06-30-11, 12:55 PM
Carter had an IQ of 176. He's probably the smartest President we've ever had (or will every have)

How you know what his IQ was?

kvrdave
06-30-11, 12:59 PM
Whether he was an empty suit or not, I suppose, is debatable.

He did restore some confindence in the American people that this country was great after a period when America didn't appear to be so great.

Apparently we did not remember the past and are condemned to repeat it.

Navinabob
06-30-11, 01:20 PM
How you know what his IQ was?

It was disclosed at sometime. There was an article a few years ago listing presidential IQs that turned out to be a hoax, the fine print on that article indicated that only Carter's IQ is a known amount and everything else in conjecture.

Norm de Plume
06-30-11, 01:28 PM
I have always taken it to mean that as you get older, you sell out.
Same here, which is why I don't understand why conservatives feel it flatters them or their position. Then again, I'm appraising it from a liberal standpoint.

BearFan
06-30-11, 05:52 PM
Same here, which is why I don't understand why conservatives feel it flatters them or their position. Then again, I'm appraising it from a liberal standpoint.

Or it can be taken as when you get older you get smarter and understand reality better (and take more showers).

Navinabob
06-30-11, 06:25 PM
Technically, research seems to indicate that Liberals and Atheists are smarter.

http://spq.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/02/16/0190272510361602.abstract

Data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) support Kanazawa's hypothesis. Young adults who subjectively identify themselves as "very liberal" have an average IQ of 106 during adolescence while those who identify themselves as "very conservative" have an average IQ of 95 during adolescence.

Please note that is the same douche who wrote that piece on Black women proven to be less attractive then other races. Hi IQ studies are generally acknowledged to be better reviewed, but just tossing it out there that the guy has both good & sketchy research to him name.

Mabuse
06-30-11, 07:21 PM
Isn't the difference between 95 and 106 pretty slim? That's barely a victory, let alone a trouncing.

Supermallet
06-30-11, 07:44 PM
Yeah, you would say that, with your 95 IQ. ;)

movielib
06-30-11, 08:19 PM
Carter had an IQ of 176. He's probably the smartest President we've ever had (or will every have)
Until it was discovered that the first digit was actually a bit of ketchup that dripped off the researcher's hamburger.

wendersfan
07-01-11, 06:39 AM
Isn't the difference between 95 and 106 pretty slim? That's barely a victory, let alone a trouncing.11 points is a pretty big difference for something like an IQ test, but the important thing is that (and I quote from the article), "The differences in mean adolescent
intelligence by adult political ideology is highly statistically significant (F(4, 13053) = 83.6327, p\.00001)."

Josh-da-man
07-01-11, 12:13 PM
11 points is a pretty big difference for something like an IQ test, but the important thing is that (and I quote from the article), "The differences in mean adolescent
intelligence by adult political ideology is highly statistically significant (F(4, 13053) = 83.6327, p\.00001)."

When my side has the IQ of 106 and the other side has the IQ of 95 it's a trouncing. When my side has 95 and the side has 106, it's statistically insignificant.

orangecrush
07-01-11, 12:22 PM
Technically, research seems to indicate that Liberals and Atheists are smarter.

http://spq.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/02/16/0190272510361602.abstract

Data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) support Kanazawa's hypothesis. Young adults who subjectively identify themselves as "very liberal" have an average IQ of 106 during adolescence while those who identify themselves as "very conservative" have an average IQ of 95 during adolescence.

Please note that is the same douche who wrote that piece on Black women proven to be less attractive then other races. Hi IQ studies are generally acknowledged to be better reviewed, but just tossing it out there that the guy has both good & sketchy research to him name.But a liberal would tell you that IQ tests are racist ;)

wendersfan
07-01-11, 12:41 PM
I read the whole article over lunch - I had previously only skimmed through the research design and results sections - and I have to say it's pretty fascinating stuff. The lit review and introduction of the hypothesis (the 'Savanna-IQ Interaction Hypothesis') are crammed full of interesting things dealing with evolutionary anthropology and social psych.

I don't really care much about whether liberals are more intelligent or not, but the argument goes like this:

Adaptation to evolutionarily novel dangers is positively correlated with intelligence. In other words, if your species had never dealt with drought before, the bright people of your species who be the ones to best figure out how to adapt and handle it. This leads to a situation where the brighter people of a population are more open to evolutionarily novel concepts such as feeding, clothing, or housing complete strangers, i.e., those who aren't a part of their tribe, family, or pack. The concept of feeding, clothing, or housing complete strangers is strongly associated with political liberalism. Therefore, brighter people are more likely to be liberals.

:shrug:

CRM114
07-01-11, 01:26 PM
Or it can be taken as when you get older you get smarter and understand reality better (and take more showers).

I'm getting older and just see it as grumpiness and greediness.

Ky-Fi
07-01-11, 01:42 PM
I think there is most likely a strong correlation between youth and naivety and idealism, which is why it's generally much easier to get 20 year olds to enlist and fight wars than 35 year olds.

I'm not really buying what seems to be an unspoken assumption by some in this thread---that a higher IQ correlates at all to being more ethical, or following a more ethical worldview.

CRM114
07-01-11, 02:16 PM
I think there is most likely a strong correlation between youth and naivety and idealism

Just as there is a strong correlation between old age and cynicism.

Ky-Fi
07-01-11, 02:24 PM
Just as there is a strong correlation between old age and cynicism.


Bah, it's all crap if you ask me.


:)

Hank Ringworm
07-02-11, 12:43 AM
If folks with high IQs think that high IQs are what matters, we oughta rethink the IQ test.

I'm still trying to pinpoint when exactly the Age of Reason turned into the Age of Ego. I think it was around the French Revolution.

Superboy
07-02-11, 07:44 AM
Ah, another rich white man who had yellow fever supported a Republican? what a shocker.