DVD Talk
DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide [Archive] - DVD Talk Forum
 
Best Sellers
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
The Longest Day
Buy: $54.99 $24.99
9.
10.
DVD Blowouts
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Alien [Blu-ray]
Buy: $19.99 $9.99
8.
9.
10.

PDA
DVD Reviews

View Full Version : DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

The Valeyard
05-31-11, 04:07 PM
This is hitting the newswire as I type. It's popping up on every comic site I read.

DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
By Lucas Siegel, Newsarama Editor
posted: 31 May 2011 04:32 pm ET


http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h433/Andrew_Rubio/Forum%20Pix/64666546.jpg
New Jim Lee Justice League,
courtesy DC Comics, USA Today


A fully revamped DC Universe for a "more modern and diverse 21st century", over 50 new #1 issues, a Geoff Johns-Jim Lee Justice League, and the first of the major comic book publishers to fully embrace "same-day" digital distribution...

That is the breaking news DC Entertainment Tuesday afternoon, finally and officially breaking their silence about their post-Flashpoint plans for their flagship line of comic book titles.

The center of intense rumor and speculation for months now, DC confirmed today that the fictional shared universe of Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lanterm and more will undergo a revamp of their oft-rewritten 76 year-plus history of shared continuity.

Geoff Johns promised USA Today "a focus on the interpersonal relationships within DC's trademark superteam." "What's the human aspect behind all these costumes?" he tells the publication. "That's what I wanted to explore."

The revamp will reportedly involve "introducing readers to stories that are grounded in each character's specific legend but also reflect today's real-world themes and events."

Jim Lee reportedly "spearheaded" the redesign of more than 50 costumes to make characters "more identifiable and accessible to comic fans new and old."

"We looked at what was going on in the marketplace and felt we really want to inject new life in our characters and line," added co-publisher Dan DiDio. "This was a chance to start, not at the beginning, but at a point where our characters are younger and the stories are being told for today's audience."

Along with the revamp, and sure to cause uproar among those who buy comic books as collectibles, all DC Universe titles will also be renumbered with new #1 issues, including the industry's two longest-running titles - Action Comics, the birthplace of Superman - and Detective Comics, the home of Batman and namesake of the publisher - the former of which recently published its 900th issue, with the latter in the 880s.

The first officially announced title and creative team of the new era was revealed as well. DC Entertainment co-publisher Jim Lee and Chief Creative Officer Geoff Johns will be teaming as artist and writer, respectively, on Justice League #1, launching August 31st and starring Batman, Superman,Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, and Aquaman.

Finally, DC also announced they plan to make all of their titles available for sale in digital format on the same day as their publlished counterparts, starting with Justice League #1. While the decision could probably be described as inevitable, the announcement will still likely be poorly received among some segments of "Direct Market" comic book retailers, whose stores account for the current backbone of monthly comic book sales.

DC has previously taken steps to ease the eventual move to fully same-day digital distribution, announcng in March a partnership with digital distributor comiXology allowing individual retailers to sell digital editions of DC comics through their websites, for a share of the online retail price.

The publisher also sent a letter directly to direct market retailers addressing their announcement. In it, SVP, Sales, DC Entertainment Bob Wayne told retailers, "DC Comics will support this initiative with an innovative mix of publicity, promotional efforts and retailer incentives designed to maximize your opportunity to increase your DC sales. We will discuss additional details of these incentives when we get closer to solicitation later in June."

"We're allowing people who have never bought a comic book in their lives to download them on portable media devices and take a look," Lee said. "Having the ability to give people access to these comics with one button click means we're going to get a lot of new readers."

Lee told USA Today what makes this plan so ambitious is that it's not just about changes in characters or costumes but setting the stage for how comic books will be consumed in the future.

"We're trying to set the table for the DC Universe's future success and health."

More information, including other creative teams, titles, and character changes, is expected with September 2011 solicitations, which should be released Monday June 13, 2011.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/DC-Universe-Reboot-Announcement-110531.html

I love the idea of same day digital release but the rebooted universe feels like a punch in the gut. They banded this about 25 years ago after Crisis on Infinite Earths and it would have worked then. It just feels like a band-aid now. I don't know. It's a drastic move on DC's part. Maybe it'll work. I hope so. I kinda feel...left behind with this news.

Maybe I'm just too old for comics now. In 1986, I LOVED the new DCU. This news...It just leaves me cold. And sad. :(

stingermck
05-31-11, 04:41 PM
Ugh. Ive wanted a JLA from Johns, but i dont want a reboot...

Navinabob
05-31-11, 04:57 PM
Meh... in about 5 years they'll just consider this an "alternative" universe and go back. I'm not entirely convinced this is just a easy out to not pay creator licensing for properties now jumping to movies, video games & toys.

fujishig
05-31-11, 05:34 PM
Like I said in the general thread when this rumor first came out, I'm out of monthly collecting. Even if the series are good I can just wait for the trade, and this is just a really convenient way to get out of monthly collecting. Thanks DC!

Usually #1 issues come with a spike in sales, however, when you have 50+ of them, I'm not sure that's the case.

I was getting more into monthly reading too. The Justice League revamp looks to be an upgrade, with Johns and Lee instead of Robinson and Booth, but I'll avoid it anyway, despite slogging through the Robinson run. So I'm still a little confused, are all titles rebooting storyline-wise too? I mean, I realize that they revamped the costumes and are starting with #1, but they can't be throwing away stuff like Batman Inc. already, can they?

edited to add: You know who this really screws? The comic book retailers. 1st day digital downloads is like a slap in the face. Making them refactor orders for every single title in the line, after having gone through three or four months of dozens of miniseries is like a punch in the gut. The hope is that this will drum up enough lasting interest that people will venture into comic book stores... but why bother if you can get them online? And then there are customers like me who were collecting some series due to pure momentum that will now stop and reconsider. There's an easy jumping on point to trade sales instead, which I would think would benefit Amazon more. There are people that are going to be ticked that series that just started are being renumbered already. It brings focus to the reality that comic book universes change all the time, and that big events, like Darkest Night and Brightest Day are meaningless in terms of impact... it's something that we all know deep down in our hearts, but it brings it up to the forefront.

JasonF
05-31-11, 05:49 PM
Jim Lee drawing a rebooted version of a major publisher's flagship titles? I feel like I've seen this movie before...

Also, I just got my prefered LSH continuity back after 20 years without them, so screw you, DC.

kgrogers1979
05-31-11, 06:03 PM
Meh... in about 5 years they'll just consider this an "alternative" universe and go back.


I agree. Action Comics will be at #1000 in 8 years. The comics will definitely revert back to original numbering by then.

They say they are making the characters younger for the younger generation. What kids today are even reading comics? Most comic readers today are older people in their 30s and 40s that grew up reading comics decades ago. Kids today would rather play video games than read a comic book. This sounds as bad as Spider-man's One More Day where Marvel got rid of the marriage in order to make him more appealing to the younger generation. I guess DC didn't learn anything from Marvel's mistake.

Also if all the characters are getting younger, what happens to all the characters that are already young like Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, the Teen Titans, etc. I guess they will become the Toddler Titans.

Giantrobo
05-31-11, 06:19 PM
Meh, fuck this DC. Start making DCU movies and catch up to MARVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:grunt:

kgrogers1979
05-31-11, 07:31 PM
Here is the full image. It looks like Cyborg may be replacing Martian Manhunter as a founding member of the new JLA. Odd choice if true.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/SteveRichter/2011-05-31_174243_DC.jpg

Rex Power Colt-Robot Man
05-31-11, 07:53 PM
Jim Lee loves turtlenecks. This I know.

The Valeyard
05-31-11, 08:56 PM
Here is the full image. It looks like Cyborg may be replacing Martian Manhunter as a founding member of the new JLA. Odd choice if true.


Not so odd. Johns has a major hard-on for the "Justice League" (Super Friends) he grew up with. Cyborg was a member of the "Super Powers/Galactic Guardians" version.

Tho the argument could be had that Cyborg has had plenty of mainstream media attention for quite awhile - Teen Titans & Smallville. This could be the next logical step for the character.

Funny - My biggest complaint (for the past 4 years) about DC has been that it felt like their entire universe was stuck trying to re-live the Silver Age/Bronze Age. Every writer/editor grew up with the Super Friends and Donner's Superman so the DCU became that in nature. This is such a radical change in the opposite direction. Well, I hope it works out for them.

PhantomStranger
06-01-11, 01:24 AM
Here is the full image. It looks like Cyborg may be replacing Martian Manhunter as a founding member of the new JLA. Odd choice if true.

The new Justice League would be all-white without him. You can bet that is a strong factor in Cyborg's inclusion here.

As for the reboot, another cheap and desperate attention ploy by one of the big two comic publishers. I expect Marvel to pull these stunts, but DC had showed just a little more integrity up until this stunt. How long does the new numbering last? I give it about 2 years, unless sales tank even faster. This may be DC's attempt to backdoor their version of the Ultimate line on readers, without telling them. Say in two years, they keep this new, revamped continuity for the Ultimate readers and bring back the real DC continuity at the current numbering.

stingermck
06-01-11, 08:01 AM
After speaking with multiple sources throughout the industry on the condition of anonymity, CBR News has learned some of the salient details of DC's September roster, starting with the perhaps telling news that the publisher plans to launch a full 52 monthly titles with #1 issues across the month with 13 new titles shipping each week. The number holds some significance for longtime DC readers as 52 is the number of parallel earths making up DC's multiverse, and CBR has confirmed that the #1 launches will be accompanied by a major reboot of continuity with many pieces of DC's current status quo being rewritten and undone including character relationships and even the existence of some cast members.

Included in the 52 series will be:

A new title starring Superman written by Grant Morrison.

Birds of Prey #1 - This new ongoing series will not feature the work of longtime "BoP" writer Gail Simone. In fact, many tried and true approaches to books will be getting a second look at DC in September.

Teen Titans #1 - The new start for the teen team will be written by "Red Robin" scribe Fabian Nicieza.

Justice Society of America #1 - Only one of a number of current titles that will welcome a creative team shift, the future of the original superhero team will apparently not involve current writer Marc Guggenheim.

Wonder Woman #1 - Don't expect the recent changes from writer J. Michael Straczynski to stick when the Amazing Amazon sees another new #1 hit.

Green Lantern #1 - Even with a new #1, Green Lantern remains in Johns' hands, and readers can expect the effects of major crossovers like "Blackest Night" to stay in place moving forward.

Hawkman #1 - While fans have known a "Hawkman" series by James Robinson has been in the works since the writer mentioned it on a panel at New York Comic Con, Bleeding Cool's Rich Johnston has been reporting the rumor that the book will be drawn by "Batman & Robin" and "Outsiders" artist Philip Tan.

Aquaman #1 - No surprises here. The already announced series featuring the sea king by Johns and Ivan Reis will be part of the relaunch wave.

The other seismic shakeup that remains unconfirmed is whether long-standing titles "Action Comics" and "Detective Comics" would also renumber with brand new first issues. However, at this time, CBR has found no confirmation one way or the other on the fate of those titles. DC Comics offered no comment on the above information.

I read somewhere else that JLA will have 12-14 members also.

sinned
06-01-11, 10:38 AM
Heh, I was just thinking the other week that I became a DC convert because they seemed to avoid the Marvel shenanigans of constantly renumbering their titles...... so what do they do? Renumber all of them!

I think it would be interesting though if they do "Ultimatize" the DC Universe, if this is really what they are planning to do.

I don't get the 52 new #1 issues though, there are maybe only 30 ongoing series tops so that means the rest would be mini-series and one-shots.

Quite surprised that Gail Simone is off Birds of Prey, when they relaunched the current BoP series she said that she would never let go of the series again. That lasted what - 14 issues?

Batman: The Dark Knight is only up to issue 3 isn't it? That would be a record for a reboot.

fujishig
06-01-11, 10:54 AM
Don't get me wrong... I give them credit for doing something so radical, because the numerous crossovers have resulted in nothing at all (what did Final Crisis really change, outside of the Bruce thing?) This also perhaps gives them some wiggle room with the Superman rihts. But they better hope that this garners them a ton of new readers, because as much as they always say that you can abuse the old readers because they'll always be there, this might be the final straw. I've been through multiple reboots of the Legion only to finally have it revert back, and this time if anything I'll just wait a few years for the final reversion. Maybe eventually we'll get someone as enamored with the Timmverse as Johns is with Donner's films and the Superfriends.

We'll see with June's sales how many people just completely abandon ship, either to wait for the reboot or just get out altogether.

If the rumors are true that Jim Lee has a few issues already drawn, then that JLA book, at least, looks like the flagship, which is what JLA should be, IMHO, so that's one silver lining.

Paul_SD
06-01-11, 10:55 AM
52 titles implies to me that DC wants to transition to a Netflix style-pay one price, enjoy as much as you want-subscription service as opposed to expecting to make money from people paying for 52 individual issues.

And while they may kick off with 52 hard copy print versions as well, they are going to be adjusting very quickly just how many different books the print market actually supports and segregating the rest to digital app-only availability.

Also, the costume overhauls are going to drive off old-schoolers like myself, but it is unfortunately necessary to court a newer generation of fickle, cynical, and narcissistic readers- most of whom will be afflicted with ADD via brains that have been weaned from birth to multi-task and to process a bombardment of stimuli. What my generation sees as the elegant simplicity of Superman's iconic costume, is going to be replaced with seams, pouches, ribbing, straps, bands, logos, and tons of needless filigree and detail- all so that Generation Z won't find it visually 'boring' and therefore 'dated'.

This new design paradigm is all going to spill over to other media as well, so everyone that just loves the extreme sports body armor and motor cycle bat helmet seen in TDK, is just going to love seeing all the characters in various media now embracing a needless, joyless, more is more literalism.

Yes, DC is going to try to remake it's universe in an 'Ultimates' image.

It's been a long time a-coming, but it looks like I'm going to finally have to grow up and put away childish things after all.

davidh777
06-01-11, 11:32 AM
Saw this on the top of USA Today this morning.

Not a fan of reboots, but then I'm an old codger who likes my Silver Age stuff. But I'm also a LSH fan who gets very confused by all their reboots.

A subscription model in a tablet world could do major damage to a LCS system that is already struggling.

What the heck is on WW's neck? A collar? Necklace? Choker?

kgrogers1979
06-01-11, 11:36 AM
Batman just got a costume redesign in Batman Inc, and now they are redesigning it again. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Wasn't the Earth One series supposed to basically be "Ultimate DC" with younger superheroes? What is the point of Earth One now? Did they cancel it and just not bother to tell anyone?

And if DC thinks they can alienate the older readers while trying to bring in new readers, that just proves they have learned nothing at all. The 90s was an epic failure because they catered to the "speculators" while alienating the long-term readers. The long-term readers began leaving in droves and then when the speculators got tired of it, there was nobody left and the comic book industry nearly crashed. DC apparently has learned nothing from this. I foresee another crash coming soon. I was one such person that got fed up with the "extreme" 90s and left, but I came back in the early 2000s. I am getting fed up with the industry again, and next time I won't be coming back. I am getting too old for this shit.

fujishig
06-01-11, 11:44 AM
Saw this on the top of USA Today this morning.

Not a fan of reboots, but then I'm an old codger who likes my Silver Age stuff. But I'm also a LSH fan who gets very confused by all their reboots.

A subscription model in a tablet world could do major damage to a LCS system that is already struggling.

What the heck is on WW's neck? A collar? Necklace? Choker?

It's so that she can have a v-neck too, which is apparently all the rage in new costumes these days (the underwear outside of your pants thing is out).

Normally the addition of Cyborg to the JLA would give me hope that that's Dick, Donna, and Wally there, but they apparently are going to de-age everyone anyway, so that wouldn't make much sense.

I don't know how they can afford a creative team on a book that they would sell digital-only.

At least they're not giving Superman to Liefeld. Oh wait, the new creative teams haven't been announced yet. But this does seem pretty familiar (singular hero gets pulled into an alternate universe where everything's changed, and he has to make things right! For a few months, we follow the new status quo in multiple mini series. At the end of it, several characters, or in this case all of them, get put into a new continuity filled with pouches and constantly late books drawn by ex-Image artists, with Jim Lee on the flagship title!)

Paul_SD
06-01-11, 11:59 AM
Jim can be a good draftsman- but he sucks as a futurist/industrial/fashion designer.
His design sense was forged in the late 80's early 90's and that's the well he still draws water from.

But I guess it doesn't matter as no matter how they re-design things today, they will end up being hopelessy outdated sooner rather than later. The underwear on the outside of the costume may seem silly to the grim and gritty literalist crowd, but it doesn't matter that it doesn't 'make sense. After 80+ years, the designs have transcended 'needing to make sense' and have become full on iconic.
Most of the new designs won't last 5 years before they have to change them again so as to remain au courant.

madcougar
06-01-11, 12:50 PM
Quit your bitching fanboys! Comic books are like crack rock to geeks like us! Look at me! Three years clean but jonesing for a hit now that it appears I can get in on the ground floor again. These stories are like your mother's warm, sweet milk and maybe not today, but soon you'll yearn to suckle it out of DC's teet. Don't come in here and tell me "I'm done with DC!" It's crap. Look at the shenanigans that Marvel has pulled with Spider-Man, yet he's still their flagship character. Clones? I forgive you! Mindwipe? Sure! Why not!

So shut your mouths and keep buying your books. You know in the end only the sweet embrace of death (real death not Sandman's sister you freakin' nerd!) will prevent you from plopping down your money for your funny books.

The Valeyard
06-01-11, 12:54 PM
Quit your bitching fanboys! Comic books are like crack rock to geeks like us! Look at me! Three years clean but jonesing for a hit now that it appears I can get in on the ground floor again. These stories are like your mother's warm, sweet milk and maybe not today, but soon you'll yearn to suckle it out of DC's teet. Don't come in here and tell me "I'm done with DC!" It's crap. Look at the shenanigans that Marvel has pulled with Spider-Man, yet he's still their flagship character. Clones? I forgive you! Mindwipe? Sure! Why not!

So shut your mouths and keep buying your books. You know in the end only the sweet embrace of death (real death not Sandman's sister you freakin' nerd!) will prevent you from plopping down your money for your funny books.

-rolleyes-

flansered
06-01-11, 01:05 PM
You know who this really screws? The comic book retailers. 1st day digital downloads is like a slap in the face.

I think that the digital versions are primarily for the people that normally don't go into the comic book shops. Most regular comic buyers will probably stick to buying the individual issues, because that's what they've always done. If jacking the prices up to $4 an issue wouldn't stop them from buying comics, I don't see the downloads hurting.

But honestly, this is all to try to get more people to read comics, but the best way to do that would probably be to lower prices and have more standalone stories, which they're not going to do.

fujishig
06-01-11, 01:16 PM
Quit your bitching fanboys! Comic books are like crack rock to geeks like us! Look at me! Three years clean but jonesing for a hit now that it appears I can get in on the ground floor again. These stories are like your mother's warm, sweet milk and maybe not today, but soon you'll yearn to suckle it out of DC's teet. Don't come in here and tell me "I'm done with DC!" It's crap. Look at the shenanigans that Marvel has pulled with Spider-Man, yet he's still their flagship character. Clones? I forgive you! Mindwipe? Sure! Why not!

So shut your mouths and keep buying your books. You know in the end only the sweet embrace of death (real death not Sandman's sister you freakin' nerd!) will prevent you from plopping down your money for your funny books.

Assuming this is tongue in cheek, I agree that they feel that they can abuse the fanbase adn go after new fans because the old fans will always be there. But there has been severe attrition even for their established fanbase... I think the last month of reported sales in particular were really dismal for them.

For the record, I stopped collecting Spider-man during the clone wars (after really enjoying the McFarlane, then Larsen, then Bagley runs). I picked up a huge hardcover of Ultimate Spiderman (that I think was a B&N exclusive) and I picked up the short Ringo/Dezago Spectacular run, but other than that I haven't read the character in his own title in years. I was a huge X-men fan, and I just can't make heads or tails of what's going on in those books these days. But you know what? All it takes is a great creative team and a great story to bring me back in. I know this because I hadn't collected a Superman title in a long time until All-Star Superman came around.

So this may be a good thing. There are two types of comics I usually collect: ones that are just great titles overall, and ones that I collect mainly because I like the characters and the history of the characters and want to see what's going to happen to them. Sometimes those intersect. I've long ago stopped collecting Marvel titles from the second pile, and this looks like a perfect time to drop that from DC. If this results in more great stories unencumbered by continuity, like All Star Superman, that's great. If it results in stories like All Star Batman, or if this becomes Ultimate DC and eventually collapses under the weight of trying to bring back all that continuity, hopefully I'll save some money.

Paul_SD
06-01-11, 01:28 PM
I was hoping DC and Marvel would go to a European style model and release regular 60+ page albums that told more or less complete stories and move away from monthly floppies.

Instead of 20 (or 52) titles a month, they could have put out eight or 10 albums. For the popular character like Batman, etc- they could cycle them quarterly- a new full story album every three months. For second and third tier characters, maybe one or two a year.
Moving to this kind of model would also allow creative teams to really concentrate on whole pieces- rather than getting worn down by the grind of having to meet a monthly deadline. And since each album is more or less self contained, you can switch creative teams from book to book.

madcougar
06-01-11, 02:11 PM
Assuming this is tongue in cheek, I agree that they feel that they can abuse the fanbase adn go after new fans because the old fans will always be there.

My comment was most definitely tounge in cheek. However, I firmly believe that the majority of people who are still reading these days will have a difficult time quiting. I know that I am still buying HC and TPB for my fix after three years of not buying floppys.

I think the people who are turned off to the point of not buying a book any longer are in the minority. If I was wrong, no way that these companies pull these type of stunts. Again, look at the way that Marvel has treated Spider-Man fans. First they try to tell us that the Peter Parker we'd known for more than 20 years was a clone! Sure they reversed it, but not before reader outcry. Then they go and undo the last 30 years or so of his history! Yet, Spider-Man continues to sell pretty well all things considered.

I was OBVIOUSLY kidding with my first post, but the point I was making is real. People will bitch all they want, but the majority of them will at the very least give the new DC books a look.

From a marketing standpoint it makes perfect sense. DC has a new distribution method and the best way to make a splash with it is by making a SPLASH! Had DC only announced the new distribution method, no way it's front page news in USA Today.

fujishig
06-01-11, 02:35 PM
Is this a new distribution method, or are they still using comicology (or their branded app) and changing this to day and date? This is a huge deal, but unfortunately it's very bad for comic book stores. I'm assuming they're not going to discount the titles online, which would be good for us but really really bad for the LCS.

You could see this coming, though. Both big companies are coming out with tpbs that nobody really is clamoring for and at least this is a way for this stuff to still be available but not be languishing on bookshelves or underordered and canceled.

madcougar
06-01-11, 02:54 PM
I for one can't imagine buying digital comic books. There's something about actually having a physical thing in my hand when reading. I'm not that old either, but I would definitely count myself as a collector.

kgrogers1979
06-01-11, 05:39 PM
It's been rumored for a long time, but it is now going to happen.

Barbara Gordon is Batgirl again. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/01/dc-relaunch-batgirl-1-and-nightwing-1/)

Yep. Who cares about 20+ years of character development as Oracle? Let's just throw it all out the window. I guess DC must really hate Cassandra Cain they way they keep shitting all over her and won't let her come back.

Also a Nightwing #1 is solicited. I guess Dick is going back to being Nightwing, so he won't be de-aged to Robin again like I had feared. I do wonder if Damian will still be around or if Tim will go back to being Robin.

I was hoping that the Batverse would be relatively untouched by all this Flashpoint reboot nonsense, but no such luck apparently.

kgrogers1979
06-01-11, 05:48 PM
My comment was most definitely tounge in cheek. However, I firmly believe that the majority of people who are still reading these days will have a difficult time quiting.


You must not have been around in the 90s. Long-term readers left in massive droves after all the crap the companies pulled back then. The industry nearly crashed in the late 90s, and Marvel almost ended up bankrupt. The industry today is a shell of its former self because the vast majority of those readers have never come back. There are FAR less readers today than there was in the heyday of the 80s and early 90s.

Personally, I was one such person that got fed up with all the 90s crap and left. I did come back to DC in the early 2000s, but I have never forgiven Marvel. Marvel pissed me off to no end. I considered Aunt May's death in Amazing Spider-man #400 to be one of the best comic stories of all time. When they retconned it into being some genetic actress bullshit, that was the straw that the broke the camel's back for me and I quit reading. I refuse to ever buy another Marvel comic again. To me, Marvel ended when Onslaught killed everyone.

PhantomStranger
06-02-11, 01:12 AM
My feelings on Marvel are similar. Marvel had a fun universe, but they have shown repeatedly over the years they do not care about the characters or even the fans at all anymore. Which is what has stopped me from picking any of their recent trades up.

I still think this is DC's way to get their regular readers to buy into an Ultimate line, because regular DC readers have always preferred the heavy continuity. What I think we'll see is the return of the "regular" DC universe once DC thinks this new lineup can survive on its own.

stingermck
06-02-11, 02:03 AM
It's been rumored for a long time, but it is now going to happen.

Barbara Gordon is Batgirl again. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/01/dc-relaunch-batgirl-1-and-nightwing-1/)

Yep. Who cares about 20+ years of character development as Oracle? Let's just throw it all out the window. I guess DC must really hate Cassandra Cain they way they keep shitting all over her and won't let her come back.

Babs back as Batgirl has been a long time coming. Theres just too much tech and magic in DCU to let her sit in a chair. BUT I love the current title with Steph. I wonder what will happen with her.

I really think this is going to play out like Heroes Reborn. Do it for awhile, then revert back. Theres just too much going on in Green Lantern and Batman these days.

kgrogers1979
06-02-11, 02:15 AM
I have just been reading rumors that supposedly Clark and Lois will no longer be married and will in fact have never been romantically involved. Superman and Wonder Woman will apparently be together after the reboot.

Wow, rumors of this reboot just keep getting worse and worse. If that is true, then DC is basically repeating Spider-man: One More Day.

Giantrobo
06-02-11, 02:16 AM
If true about WW and Supes I'm actually cool with that. :up:

kgrogers1979
06-02-11, 02:34 AM
I really think this is going to play out like Heroes Reborn. Do it for awhile, then revert back. Theres just too much going on in Green Lantern and Batman these days.


I hope that is all it is, that the heroes just get stuck in the Flashpoint dimension for a year or so and then return to New Earth. There are supposedly going to be 52 rebooted titles, and 52 is the magic number for DC's multiverse, so there is a good chance that is all this "reboot" actually will be.

Laertes
06-02-11, 07:26 AM
I hope that is all it is, that the heroes just get stuck in the Flashpoint dimension for a year or so and then return to New Earth. There are supposedly going to be 52 rebooted titles, and 52 is the magic number for DC's multiverse, so there is a good chance that is all this "reboot" actually will be.

I hope you are right, and that's what I thought when I heard the news. Exactly what you said: 52 titles, that can't be a coincidence, etc. But doesn't the corporation look dumb(er) if they revert to the old timeline once this is established? They seem to be all in on this. Even if this is, say Earth-34 or something, doesn't it look like failure to bring back the old time line?

I was a kid when "Crisis on Infinite Earths" came out, but man, now I know how the old fans must have felt then.

At least I have a world of trades I haven't explored yet (Morrison's Batman stuff, for instance) and I'll probably mine those for the foreseeable future.

slop101
06-02-11, 09:28 AM
Are the digital comics going to cost the same as the floppies? If so, fuck 'em, since there's NO reason they should; no paper, no ink, no distribution/delivery, no middleman, etc... Sure, there's bandwidth and the set up for going digital, but that's front-loaded and a fraction of what it cost them to distribute print media.

Preterite
06-02-11, 10:09 AM
Also, I just got my prefered LSH continuity back after 20 years without them, so screw you, DC.
Hell, yeah.

I've always considered myself a "DC guy". But after 40+ years of reading comics, I'm about done. I'm only buying three DC monthlies - Simone's Birds of Prey and Secret Six and Levitz' Legion. Take those writers off those books and I'm gone. I'll come back when they put those writers back on in a year.

The thing is, if this was a complete and total break from the past like the "Earth-One" roll-out was in the 1950's, I would be 100% behind the project. But DC is going to half-ass it just as they did after COIE. They are going to try and "start fresh" while still clinging to the history and continuity of their top-selling characters. The result is going to be the same convoluted mess we saw in the late 80's and 90's.

Hokeyboy
06-02-11, 10:19 AM
:up: to same day digital downloads. Fuck the Direct Market. That's what killed the industry in the first place.

fujishig
06-02-11, 10:39 AM
Babs back as Batgirl has been a long time coming. Theres just too much tech and magic in DCU to let her sit in a chair. BUT I love the current title with Steph. I wonder what will happen with her.

I really think this is going to play out like Heroes Reborn. Do it for awhile, then revert back. Theres just too much going on in Green Lantern and Batman these days.

This is now the fourth thing from DC that I thought would never be reverted in my lifetime. Bringing back Supergirl as Superman's cousin, bringing back Jason Todd, bringing back Barry Allen, and now bringing back the original Batgirl. They have teased this sooo many times, including the latest Death of Oracle storyline, but it takes a company-wide reboot to do it. AT this point, she's been Oracle about as long or longer than she ever was Batgirl, and she's been a much more important character to boot.

edited to add: I guess bringing back the Multiverse and crapping all over the intent of Crisis would be a fifth.


I hope you are right, and that's what I thought when I heard the news. Exactly what you said: 52 titles, that can't be a coincidence, etc. But doesn't the corporation look dumb(er) if they revert to the old timeline once this is established? They seem to be all in on this. Even if this is, say Earth-34 or something, doesn't it look like failure to bring back the old time line?

I was a kid when "Crisis on Infinite Earths" came out, but man, now I know how the old fans must have felt then.

At least I have a world of trades I haven't explored yet (Morrison's Batman stuff, for instance) and I'll probably mine those for the foreseeable future.

I thought about this yesterday... as much as I loved Man of Steel and later, Robinson's Golden Age and his and Johns' JSA, I wonder how all the older fans felt when something like integrating Earth 2 into Earth 1's history came about. I was a fan pre-Crisis, but I was just a kid, so the only thing that really affected me was the Legion, and I grew to accept the Superboy conundrum and the Giffen alternate telling. But when they completely rebooted the Legion not once but twice...

Are the digital comics going to cost the same as the floppies? If so, fuck 'em, since there's NO reason they should; no paper, no ink, no distribution/delivery, no middleman, etc... Sure, there's bandwidth and the set up for going digital, but that's front-loaded and a fraction of what it cost them to distribute print media.

:up: to same day digital downloads. Fuck the Direct Market. That's what killed the industry in the first place.

Or the Direct Market was the thing that let the industry keep going in the first place. There are good LCS and bad LCS, and they clearly serve a niche market, but I doubt that they held comics back from being mainstream. Day and date cheaper downloads of comics would destroy the Direct Market... I know there are many fans who want and need their physical copies, but if even a small fraction of the existing fanbase goes digital and nobody new takes their place, that's enough to fold most of the smaller stores and some of the larger ones. I'm really, really curious if anyone went in to get their comics this week and had a discussion with the store owners about their take on this. I'd be scared. And not just because I'd have to figure out how to order 52 #1 issues in a month, though that would be part of it (figuring out the 52 #2 issues is probably much harder anyway).

flansered
06-02-11, 10:42 AM
:up: to same day digital downloads. Fuck the Direct Market. That's what killed the industry in the first place.

I thought it was high prices and the inability to pick up a single issue and easily figure out what was going on. Cheaper prices and more standalone/non-company wide events might help bring people back.

kgrogers1979
06-02-11, 11:06 AM
AT this point, she's been Oracle about as long or longer than she ever was Batgirl, and she's been a much more important character to boot.


Babs was Batgirl from 1966-1988 and Oracle from 1989-2011. 22 years in both cases.


I thought it was high prices and the inability to pick up a single issue and easily figure out what was going on. Cheaper prices and more standalone/non-company wide events might help bring people back.

Agreed.

$3-$4 for a single comic book is ridiculous. If I hadn't first started reading decades ago, there is absolute no way I would jump in now at those prices.

Events aren't bad as long as they aren't overdone. When you just have event after event after event, it just becomes a gimmick. The worse problem in my opinion is having so many books devoted to one character. Like right now for instance there are like a dozen monthly books for just Batman alone. That is overkill. Less is more. Having a couple high quality books is better than having a dozen mediocre ones. People aren't likely to buy a dozen books just to keep up with one character. There is a reason that most of these side-books keep getting canceled while the main Batman book and Detective remain.

And DC thinks that having 52 new #1 issues is going to bring in new readers? What are they thinking? That is at least $150 a month if you want to follow everything. Absolutely no way is a person likely to jump on that unless they have already been devoted to comics for years and years.

Also not being able to buy comics anywhere except a comic specialty store prevents people from buying. I remember as a kid how every place ranging from the grocery store to the drug store to even the barber shop had a spinner rack full of comic books. They need to bring back the spinner racks and get the comics more widely available.

Trevor
06-02-11, 11:17 AM
Fuck the Direct Market. That's what killed the industry in the first place.

I thought it was high prices and the inability to pick up a single issue and easily figure out what was going on. Cheaper prices and more standalone/non-company wide events might help bring people back.

I thought it was the speculators and alternate cover schemes of the early 90s.

But on topic, FCBD has me interested in comics again, and I may give this reboot a try. I wonder if any online store will have a deal bundle on all fifty-two #1s?

fujishig
06-02-11, 11:27 AM
Also not being able to buy comics anywhere except a comic specialty store prevents people from buying. I remember as a kid how every place ranging from the grocery store to the drug store to even the barber shop had a spinner rack full of comic books. They need to bring back the spinner racks and get the comics more widely available.


This has always been what people have been clamoring for. When I first went to college, I didn't have a car and the nearest LCS was pretty crappy... and I bought stuff off the spinner rack in a Waldens. It was always hit or miss whether they'd have an issue or whether they'd be in decent shape, but I bought them to read anyway.

I don't think the Direct Market is to blame for losing that, though. True, comic companies started catering to the Direct Market, but remember that all those spinner rack titles are returnable (well, I assume that like magazines they just return the covers and pulp the rest). Comic companies don't like that. Also, while Archie apparently got a sweetheart deal that they're legacied into to get into all those grocery store checkout lines, it is supposedly very, very expensive to get other product there (and those digests I bought from there as a kid introduced me to a lot of silver age stuff).

On the bright side, I've seen numerous people mention that Barnes and Noble had complete racks of DC comics up at their local stores (perhaps as a tie in to this recent announcement). If that's true, that's great!

kgrogers1979
06-02-11, 11:58 AM
Some of the new titles are announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/02/the-new-justice/

Justice League #1
Wonder Woman #1
Aquaman #1
The Flash #1
The Fury of Firestorm #1
The Savage Hawkman #1
Green Arrow #1
Justice League International #1
Mister Terrific #1
Captain Atom #1
DC Universe Presents #1

fujishig
06-02-11, 12:27 PM
Azarello on Wonder Woman seems like an odd choice. Manapul on Flash as writer also seems odd, I don't think I've ever seen a writing credit from him before, is this his first? JLI at least shows that they're not changing everyone's costume. I love Firestorm, but I'm not sure how I feel about Firestorm red and Firestorm yellow, though there's one of the first de-agings right there with Ronnie.

LorenzoL
06-02-11, 12:45 PM
I just recently got back into reading comics again after being away for almost 15 years. I have been enjoying the Batman family of books so I'm disappointed about this "reboot". I really hope they don't mess it up.

Superman07
06-02-11, 02:01 PM
I was never really big into collecting comics. I trade some baseball cards and got Superman 500 so that brought me into the fold. I went back and read up on the Death story line and then started collecting through the Return series with the various incarnations. I picked up a few other titles along the way, but nothing major. Since then I have gone back and purchased a good handful of the DC archives and some TPB, but I don't much buy any of those either. In fact, I have a friend that is really into the TPB scene, so mostly I can just borrow from him what he recommends.

That said, I see this as a colossal mistake by DC. It could prove to be beneficial, but I can't help but feel like they're throwing the baby out with the bath water. However, are they not fully moving everything over? I can't believe they'd throw out 900 issues of Actions comics with it positioned as the longest running comic, especially when it's relatively so close to 1000.

madcougar
06-02-11, 02:14 PM
You must not have been around in the 90s. Long-term readers left in massive droves after all the crap the companies pulled back then. The industry nearly crashed in the late 90s, and Marvel almost ended up bankrupt. The industry today is a shell of its former self because the vast majority of those readers have never come back. There are FAR less readers today than there was in the heyday of the 80s and early 90s.

Personally, I was one such person that got fed up with all the 90s crap and left. I did come back to DC in the early 2000s, but I have never forgiven Marvel. Marvel pissed me off to no end. I considered Aunt May's death in Amazing Spider-man #400 to be one of the best comic stories of all time. When they retconned it into being some genetic actress bullshit, that was the straw that the broke the camel's back for me and I quit reading. I refuse to ever buy another Marvel comic again. To me, Marvel ended when Onslaught killed everyone.

Were you born in 1979? I only ask because I've been collecting comics in some way, shape or form since at least 1979. It wasn't the comic book companies that killed the market in the 1990s, it was the speculators. They were the ones who bought multiple copies of whatever crap the companies shovled our way. They were the ones who created the bubble, which eventually burst and left the field in ruins.

I've read more than one piece that says the AVERAGE comic book reader only collects for about six or seven years. This is one of the reasons that we see so much crap rehashed by comic book companies. This is the reason we have a "relaunch" every 10 years or so in the DC Universe I would bet.

The 80s saw Crisis. The 90s saw Zero Hour. The 00s saw so much crap I couldn't keep up. This year we get this.

I would bet serious money that people who have been collecting for as long as I have (30 years casually, 20 seriously) are few and far between. The comic book companies don't cater to me. They cater to the newer reader.

Hokeyboy
06-02-11, 02:14 PM
The Direct Market gradually took comics out of the common newsstands, spinner racks, grocery stores, and supermarkets, and ghetto'ed them to dingy, stanky stores populated by twitchy nerds. Young kids stopped buying them, depriving the industry of new readers, and as the average reader age grew higher and higher, the industry chose to cater to a dwindling customer base chiefly comprised of recalcitrant man-children.

If a comic sells 70,000+ copies these days, it's considered a mega-blockbuster. That would have been grounds for cancellation not too long ago. If these properties are to continue and thrive, they NEED to adapt. Marvel did an AMAZING thing reinvigorating their properties in the movies; repositioning their characters like X-Men, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk (good and badly) FF (badly), Daredevil (badly), Ghost Rider (yikes!) to a new generation. Their brand awareness has NEVER been better. DC has been hobbled by Warner's inability to properly launch any character that doesn't have Nolan attached to it (yet... I have VERY high hopes for GL), but they've been extremely successful leveraging television and DTV animation.

The Direct Market is dead. An entirely useless thing. Catering to a dwindling population of 70 thousand readers or so is like willingly and blindly playing second viola on the Titanic.

Preterite
06-02-11, 02:41 PM
Most of the costume changes seem like unnecessary fiddling. But I do like the move of Mr. Terrific's slogan from (outdated) motorcycle jacket to (soon to be outdated) tattoo.

fujishig
06-02-11, 03:57 PM
The Direct Market gradually took comics out of the common newsstands, spinner racks, grocery stores, and supermarkets, and ghetto'ed them to dingy, stanky stores populated by twitchy nerds. Young kids stopped buying them, depriving the industry of new readers, and as the average reader age grew higher and higher, the industry chose to cater to a dwindling customer base chiefly comprised of recalcitrant man-children.

If a comic sells 70,000+ copies these days, it's considered a mega-blockbuster. That would have been grounds for cancellation not too long ago. If these properties are to continue and thrive, they NEED to adapt. Marvel did an AMAZING thing reinvigorating their properties in the movies; repositioning their characters like X-Men, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk (good and badly) FF (badly), Daredevil (badly), Ghost Rider (yikes!) to a new generation. Their brand awareness has NEVER been better. DC has been hobbled by Warner's inability to properly launch any character that doesn't have Nolan attached to it (yet... I have VERY high hopes for GL), but they've been extremely successful leveraging television and DTV animation.

The Direct Market is dead. An entirely useless thing. Catering to a dwindling population of 70 thousand readers or so is like willingly and blindly playing second viola on the Titanic.

I don't see how you can blame the direct market for taking comics out of newsstands. Certainly, that was a factor... when DC started printing Direct Market Baxter books on better paper, they created a situation where the newsstand was different from the comic book store (the newsstand comics got different stories for a year, then they started to reprint the direct market stuff, so they were behind by a bit). However, at that point, IIRC, the cost of printing was going sky high and to justify upping the price, they upped the quality/content. Also, as a I said before, the newsstand stuff was all returnable. I'm not sure if they left the newsstands or got kicked out due to costs, then dwindling interest. Like I said, the only reason Archie is still at the checkout line is supposedly because of the sweet deal they signed long ago.

The other big event was the almost total annihilation of the small distributor. I'm not sure if it was inevitable anyway, but when Marvel created their own distributor, DC reacted by signing exclusively with Diamond, which cascaded down. The smaller mom and pop type places could no longer meet the minimum of the big distributor, and gave up comic books... or that was always what I thought, feel free to correct me.

Were you born in 1979? I only ask because I've been collecting comics in some way, shape or form since at least 1979. It wasn't the comic book companies that killed the market in the 1990s, it was the speculators. They were the ones who bought multiple copies of whatever crap the companies shovled our way. They were the ones who created the bubble, which eventually burst and left the field in ruins.

I've read more than one piece that says the AVERAGE comic book reader only collects for about six or seven years. This is one of the reasons that we see so much crap rehashed by comic book companies. This is the reason we have a "relaunch" every 10 years or so in the DC Universe I would bet.

The 80s saw Crisis. The 90s saw Zero Hour. The 00s saw so much crap I couldn't keep up. This year we get this.

I would bet serious money that people who have been collecting for as long as I have (30 years casually, 20 seriously) are few and far between. The comic book companies don't cater to me. They cater to the newer reader.

The comic book companies latched on to the collector mentality, catered to it and magnified it, and never really though about the bubble bursting. You can't really absolve them of blame, they helped create that scenario with the multiple foil covers, polybagged comics with cards, variant covers, etc. They never really thought about what would happen when people stopped buying multiple copies of every comic thinking it would appreciate. It's like the housing bubble, both the lenders and the borrowers deserve some of the blame.

And who was the top level exec who stated that "comic book reader cycle" thing? I don't remember, anyone know?

madcougar
06-02-11, 04:28 PM
The comic book companies latched on to the collector mentality, catered to it and magnified it, and never really though about the bubble bursting. You can't really absolve them of blame, they helped create that scenario with the multiple foil covers, polybagged comics with cards, variant covers, etc. They never really thought about what would happen when people stopped buying multiple copies of every comic thinking it would appreciate. It's like the housing bubble, both the lenders and the borrowers deserve some of the blame.

And who was the top level exec who stated that "comic book reader cycle" thing? I don't remember, anyone know?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but in the end the comic book companies are out to make a buck. They certainly didn't HELP, but in the end they were pumping out product that the speculators ate up. If you see Marvel making a killing with this crap, what do you do if you're DC and vice verse? You're not going to leave money on the table are you? Plus remember these folks answer to stockholders.

I'm honestly not sure where I read the comic book reader cycle, but I remember thinking to myself "So that's why this crap keeps repeating!"

Josh-da-man
06-02-11, 04:31 PM
The Direct Market gradually took comics out of the common newsstands, spinner racks, grocery stores, and supermarkets, and ghetto'ed them to dingy, stanky stores populated by twitchy nerds. Young kids stopped buying them, depriving the industry of new readers, and as the average reader age grew higher and higher, the industry chose to cater to a dwindling customer base chiefly comprised of recalcitrant man-children.

The newsstand market had already started collapsing by the time that the direct market was created.

Also keep in mind that the direct market led to the rise of independent publishers like Dark Horse, Comico, First, etc.

Young kids stopped buying comics because, by the time the 80s came around, they had more options available for entertainment like video games, collecting Star Wars/GI Joe/Transformers toys, watching cable TV, etc. And these things replaced comic books for a generation of kids.

The direct market was pretty much fucked over by Marvel in the mid-90s when they bought out Heroes World and attempted to self-distribute. They killed one major distributor and left Diamond a monopoly.

stingermck
06-02-11, 05:43 PM
Not a reboot?

Don’t Call It A Reboot: DC Announces Digital Combo Pack, Digital Pricing
June 2nd, 2011
Author Graeme McMillan

And the DC news keeps coming: Not only has DC confirmed that digital pricing for its DCU books will be $2.99 for the first four weeks of release before dropping to $1.99 thereafter, but it’s also announced the first combo pack for print and digital comics:

Those who want a physical copy of JUSTICE LEAGUE to read and collect, as well as the ability to download it onto their favorite device for easy transport, get ready. Each print edition of the comic book and an individual code for digital download will be wrapped in a poly bag and available for $4.99. Separately, the standard version will retail for $3.99 and the digital version will retail for $3.99.

“As we continue to expand our readership and make our titles more accessible to readers everywhere, we’re excited to provide our comic shop retail partners and their consumers with multiple formats of JUSTICE LEAGUE in one convenient place,” said John Rood, EVP Sales, Marketing and Business Development.

Combo packs have become increasingly popular for DVD/Blu-Ray releases in the past couple of years, and the idea has been raised by comic publishers before, but I’m pretty sure that DC is correct in claiming that this is a “historic first” for comics. The question now is, whether the same will be true of every DCU book going forward, and if so, whether the combos will outsell the “regular” print versions.

UPDATE: DC’s Bob Wayne has sent an email to retailers that explains, in part,

To clarify from my last note, we will be at “price-parity” for same-day digital. No DC digital comic will be cheaper than its physical counterpart at launch. Same-day (a.k.a. “Day/ Date”) parity pricing is for the first four weeks of release; thereafter, the digital titles will follow our standard pricing, with $2.99 comics dropping in price to $1.99, $3.99 comics dropping in price to $2.99, and so forth. Keep in mind that our goal with our 52 new #1s will be to ensure that the physical comic book is more compelling than ever!

The email also announces a series of retailer meetings DC will be holding across America in the next month, leading up to the release of the next Previews catalog, and includes this fascinating tease:

And by the way, let me just reiterate this point: this is the launch of the New DCU. It is not a “reboot.” I think you will soon discover why that is.

Not a reboot, but a new DC Universe? Let the (even greater) speculation begin…

fujishig
06-02-11, 05:54 PM
Weren't they "holding the line at 2.99" or something? 3.99 for JL? Also, I know this is an entirely different situation, but polybags? Are there alternate covers for those too (since they have to have a different price anyway).

I'm not sure I'd pay the extra buck for the digital download.

brayzie
06-02-11, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I always heard that the creation of the Direct Market was in response to the declining comic book market.

I think what really prevented the comic industry from becoming even more mainstream was the hysteria in the 50s generated from Fredrick Wertham's SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT book. Before that you had more variety on the spinner rack with crime, horror, and romance books, in addition to the superhero titles. When the code took effect, it further cemented the public's idea that comics were just for kids.

Either way though, I don't think the current decline in sales is just because of the Direct Market, ghetto comic shops, or repetitive material. The print medium, particularly comics and magazines, are having an incredibly difficult time competing with the internet (websites, blogs, etc), iPhones, portable video games, portable dvd/tv's, etc.

Why buy Detective Comics when you can watch Batman: Brave and the Bold for free?

fujishig
06-02-11, 07:16 PM
Yeah, I always heard that the creation of the Direct Market was in response to the declining comic book market.

I think what really prevented the comic industry from becoming even more mainstream was the hysteria in the 50s generated from Fredrick Wertham's SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT book. Before that you had more variety on the spinner rack with crime, horror, and romance books, in addition to the superhero titles. When the code took effect, it further cemented the public's idea that comics were just for kids.

Either way though, I don't think the current decline in sales is just because of the Direct Market, ghetto comic shops, or repetitive material. The print medium, particularly comics and magazines, are having an incredibly difficult time competing with the internet (websites, blogs, etc), iPhones, portable video games, portable dvd/tv's, etc.

Why buy Detective Comics when you can watch Batman: Brave and the Bold for free?

Wow, Seduction of the Innocent, I didn't think anyone would go that far back. :) I obviously wasn't around at the time, but weren't the other titles either romance or pulp or horror, which was also rather juvenile? It certainly focused comic books on superheroes which perhaps further cemented the medium into as kid's fantasy fare, but were there more adults reading comics then?

Price is the key there, though. The reason it can't compete with tv and internet and portable video games and the like is it's just not the same bang for the buck, where the buck is sometimes free. Certainly, 2.99 and 3.99 even for a gorgeously illustrated and well written 32 page comic is a lot of money when you consider the return on investment, and then you have the fact that even the non gorgeously illustrated and well written ones are the same price, and you can't tell jack from the cover anymore.

As I said before, this move is probably completely losing me, at least as a monthly comic buyer (though they will get me with graphic novels and maybe even downloads). But it is a bold move, and removing obtuse continuity and trying to reach out to new readers is probably a step in the right direction. By not just doing a separate Ultimates universe, they are basically saying that this is do or die... I'm certainly not coming back to monthlies even if they revert. The question is, has continuity been the main obstacle? Are there those who are just clamoring for digital downloads who don't currently collect comics? I'd love to see how those Comicology 99 cents sales do, and whether even lowering the price has had an impact on people checking comics out by impulse. They obviously expect the current comic fans to contribute... no new reader is buying 52 new #1s, and some may even be confused by all the titles.

Giantrobo
06-02-11, 07:51 PM
Wow, so Captain Atom is no longer the scourge of the DC Universe from a couple years ago? :up:

PhantomStranger
06-02-11, 07:54 PM
I have just been reading rumors that supposedly Clark and Lois will no longer be married and will in fact have never been romantically involved. Superman and Wonder Woman will apparently be together after the reboot.

Wow, rumors of this reboot just keep getting worse and worse. If that is true, then DC is basically repeating Spider-man: One More Day.
That is the best news I have heard all day about the reboot, if true. Not because I have any desire outside of a what-if to see Superman and Wonder Woman together, but that radical of a move implies either the reboot is temporary or will ultimately end up as its own continuity like the Ultimate universe at Marvel. From what I have heard, Superman will be single again and not yet married to Lois Lane in the new universe. There is no way DC would stick for long with those two not romantically together.

Price is the key there, though. The reason it can't compete with tv and internet and portable video games and the like is it's just not the same bang for the buck, where the buck is sometimes free. Certainly, 2.99 and 3.99 even for a gorgeously illustrated and well written 32 page comic is a lot of money when you consider the return on investment, and then you have the fact that even the non gorgeously illustrated and well written ones are the same price, and you can't tell jack from the cover anymore.

The pricing for a single issue is a major barrier for new customers, particularly kids. Years ago you could pick up at least several issues with a typical allowance. Most kids could afford to follow the one character they really liked in one, or at most, two monthly issues. If you like Batman as a kid today and want to buy all the monthly comics that feature him, you would be talking about hundreds of dollars. That is a recipe for failure and a shrinking base of comic book fans.

The industry really needs to figure something fundamentally out about page count and format if it wants to hang around. The value proposition is just not there because the comic book market has shrunk. Publishers have to continually raise prices over the pace of inflation to counteract the smaller buying audience.

Sonny Corinthos
06-02-11, 10:15 PM
:thmbsdwn: This the kind of crap that got me out of buying comic books in the 90's.

brayzie
06-02-11, 11:21 PM
This reminds me of the proposed All-Star lineup. It was supposed to bring casual readers back, as well as bring in new readers who weren't familiar with heavy continuity but only the basics.

Problem was that it catered to artists who couldn't meet monthly deadlines, so they made the line bi-monthly.

All-Star Superman was beautifully drawn and well written, but even with a bi-monthly schedule, it was still plagued by delays.

All-Star Batman was beautifully drawn, but came out bi-yearly, the writing was horrible, and one issue had to be recalled because the writer put actual swear words in the comic.

All-Star Wonder Woman was supposed to come out but never did.

brayzie
06-02-11, 11:34 PM
It certainly focused comic books on superheroes which perhaps further cemented the medium into as kid's fantasy fare, but were there more adults reading comics then?
I thought so too, but I read an article that claimed a substantial amount of adults were buying crime and horror comics back then. If true, maybe the American comic industry would have been more like the Japanese manga industry.


Price is the key there, though. The reason it can't compete with tv and internet and portable video games and the like is it's just not the same bang for the buck, where the buck is sometimes free.
It's not really a deal when 3.99 buys you PART 2 of a 35 PART STORY, when for $1 you can't rent a movie.

But how can they make it any cheaper? Go back to newsprint? Hire less experienced, but cheaper talent?

Comics aren't really a good impulse buy anymore.

boredsilly
06-03-11, 12:40 AM
I'm game for this. DC has been dreadfully boring to me for the last 5 years, so a shakeup can only improve things from my perspective.

Travis McClain
06-03-11, 03:10 AM
Also keep in mind that the direct market led to the rise of independent publishers like Dark Horse, Comico, First, etc.

I'm a little late to this thread and Hokeyboy has already covered much of what I would have said but I want to point out that it does no good for there to be a Dark Horse Comics in business today if their product is known only to the fans who are already accustomed to shopping at their LCS. For instance:

Young kids stopped buying comics because, by the time the 80s came around, they had more options available for entertainment like video games, collecting Star Wars/GI Joe/Transformers toys, watching cable TV, etc. And these things replaced comic books for a generation of kids.

I was born in December 1978, so I was a kid during the 80s. Want to know what got me into comic books? Marvel's run of G.I. Joe and Transformers, which I could find at gas stations, pharmacies and grocers here in my small town. I immediately recognized that they were more sophisticated than the animated series, and I was instantly hooked on the more mature dialog. I credit Larry Hama far more than any teacher I had for my vocabulary. At seven I found out that a dirge is a mournful song, because I wanted to know what the hell that Decepticon's name meant.

From those two series I became conscious of other comics. I began to take notice of the other titles on sale. I saw ads for comics in the issues I did buy, and I read about back issues and yet other comics through the letters columns and editorials. This awareness led me to being curious about the comics I read about that weren't being sold through the mass market.

Simply put, without those comics available to me in my small town at mass retailers I may never have taken notice of comic books.

The direct market was pretty much fucked over by Marvel in the mid-90s when they bought out Heroes World and attempted to self-distribute. They killed one major distributor and left Diamond a monopoly.

Let's not forget that Marvel's ill-timed acquisition of Fleer (just in time for the MLB strike of 1994) played a key role in urging them to pursue such a risky business scheme in the first place. I wouldn't have recommended that they create a multimedia empire just to insulate it, but they didn't ask me.

Anyway, as for DC's planned relaunch, I'm not terribly interested. I was a regular reader of all the Batman, Superman and Green Lantern books in the 90s, and when "Zero Hour" came out, I read all the pertinent #0s and the mini-series and then I bailed on Superman entirely and dropped my Bat-reading to Legends of the Dark Knight and whatever incarnation of The Batman Adventures was active at the time (I believe it was Batman & Robin Adventures). I only kept up with those because they were self-contained series, and it wasn't too long until I stopped keeping up with those, too. I don't see this as a particularly attractive jumping-on point, but maybe others will.

Ultimately, the fate of the industry lies in its willingness to be innovative. There are lots of talented writers and artists out there, but it seems that few have been given the chance to really do anything interesting with the characters they don't personally own. Gail Simone's work has cultivated a devoted following (noted elsewhere in this very thread, for instance), but the standard has really been to just rotate talent from one book to the next, and then to disregard the most immediate predecessor's run through a bold new declaration that will, of course, itself be subsequently disavowed or undone by the next creative team.

Say what you will about Archie being a square, but readers of those comics know what they're going to get from month to month. It may not be particularly dramatic material, but Archie has never aspired to be a heavy hitter. It's a modest, lighthearted series that has stayed focused for decades and even cultivated some longterm spin-offs. There's something to be said for that kind of consistency.

Also, I think it's high time that DC and Marvel both began to consider adopting a publication scheme focused on mini-series rather than ongoing titles. We've seen cable TV shows move toward 13 episode seasons that allow more flexibility with production and more concise storytelling throughout each season that tends to keep viewers engaged. Dark Horse was built on mini-series. And if DC is in fact committed to distancing themselves from their previous numbering system, then I have to ask what the point of committing themselves to the ongoing format even is. I say let each story arc be its own mini-series, allowing readers to more clearly identify what they're buying.

I don't want to guess if I pick up a random issue of Green Lantern next month whether I should have read three different other GL spin-off issues first, and I shouldn't need a 22-issue checklist to tell me where a given issue fits into things. If, instead, that 22-issue story was metered out in a 22-issue limited series numbered #1-22, and united by a series-wide, unique title, I might be more tempted to make a commitment. It's hard to have a sense of fidelity to a story, when it requires me to buy multiple series; and it's hard to feel loyalty to a series, when a story requires me to be a polygamist.

boredsilly
06-03-11, 08:05 AM
The comic book companies latched on to the collector mentality, catered to it and magnified it, and never really though about the bubble bursting. You can't really absolve them of blame, they helped create that scenario with the multiple foil covers, polybagged comics with cards, variant covers, etc. They never really thought about what would happen when people stopped buying multiple copies of every comic thinking it would appreciate. It's like the housing bubble, both the lenders and the borrowers deserve some of the blame.

Yeah, but those foil covers were pretty sweet when you were 12 years old. -wink-

All I know is, right or wrong, the direct market sucks. It serves existing fans well enough, but it's the total opposite of what is necessary for growth. Somebody had to step up and really start to push for digital because that is easily the best way to at least get tons of comics in the hands of people who would never go into a comic shop, or to the trade section at a book store.

flansered
06-03-11, 09:32 AM
But how can they make it any cheaper? Go back to newsprint? Hire less experienced, but cheaper talent?

Comics aren't really a good impulse buy anymore.

I think that would help. Going back to newsprint could make the books cheaper, and possibly more enticing to people that would make an impulsive buy. Most people would rather drop $2 on something that they might be curious about than $4.

Navinabob
06-03-11, 12:31 PM
The current speculation is that this will just be a new "event" catered around the Flash where he crosses over to this new universe, then will slowly start to figure out that things are not feeling right. After he crosses back that universe will be their version of the Ultimate brand and things will go back to the way they were.

Travis McClain
06-03-11, 12:48 PM
Yeah, but those foil covers were pretty sweet when you were 12 years old. -wink-

I liked some of them. Batman #500 comes to mind, as well as Legends of the Dark Knight #50 and The Amazing Spider-Man #300. But even at 12 I resented the frequency of foil covers. It wasn't the covers that I had a problem with, but rather the blatant point of those covers.

All I know is, right or wrong, the direct market sucks. It serves existing fans well enough, but it's the total opposite of what is necessary for growth. Somebody had to step up and really start to push for digital because that is easily the best way to at least get tons of comics in the hands of people who would never go into a comic shop, or to the trade section at a book store.

Just to add to this, imagine if you couldn't buy movies or music at Walmart, Target or other such retailers but instead had to rely on a local video or record shop. It's great for specific items to be exclusive, but not an entire industry.

JasonF
06-03-11, 12:55 PM
Because Downfall parody videos never get old ...

UpUh_Yl49l4

I agree with Hitler.

Wait .. what?

JasonF
06-03-11, 12:58 PM
Just to add to this, imagine if you couldn't buy movies or music at Walmart, Target or other such retailers but instead had to rely on a local video or record shop. It's great for specific items to be exclusive, but not an entire industry.

The awesome thing about this news is the digital distibution stuff, because I think that really could be a game changer that makes comics available to those 12-year-old kids who, in our day, would have gotten into comics at the 7-11. I'm very pissy about the continuity changes, but I think the digitial distribution news could do great things for the industry.

(Imagine if you could buy comics via XBLA or PSN and read them on your TV?)

brayzie
06-03-11, 01:49 PM
Because Downfall parody videos never get old ...

I agree with Hitler.

Wait .. what?

Superman is super strong and can fly, yet they constantly keep retelling his origin, changing the status quo, etc.

I can't see how these digitial comics are going to bring in new readers. It's probably just going to the comic shops because a percentage of the regular Wednesday customers are just going to download them.

Kids who watch cartoons on their iPhones are not going to have the patience and attention span to download "pages."

I will say this, buying Astonishing X-Men, when it first came out, at 7-11 was a good experience. I didn't know they still sold comics there. Unfortanately it's rare when you could find quality titles at 7-11. Mostly it was various Star Wars books. Now you're lucky if they sell those speciality magazines featuring Spider-man or Green Lantern.

Travis McClain
06-03-11, 02:22 PM
The awesome thing about this news is the digital distibution stuff, because I think that really could be a game changer that makes comics available to those 12-year-old kids who, in our day, would have gotten into comics at the 7-11. I'm very pissy about the continuity changes, but I think the digitial distribution news could do great things for the industry.

(Imagine if you could buy comics via XBLA or PSN and read them on your TV?)

Here's the thing, though: If motion comics, which add music, voices and even limited animation, haven't won over the young kids, what makes anyone think that digital comics are going to capture their attention?

Look at it this way: Let's say some kid gets curious about a digital comic book. He signs into iTunes, sees a promotion for the current issue of Green Lantern, decides to download it. How easy it is going to be for him to actually get caught up and even understand what the hell is going on? In September he can be there for the (next) beginning, but what about the kid who gets his first iPad for Christmas this year? He's already four issues behind, and that's assuming that GL's storyline is contained to a singular Green Lantern title.

Suppose, though, that kid does become interested in reading Green Lantern comics. Is he supposed to only read current digital comics? Is the hope that he'll go to his LCS and begin delving into back issues--whose content may be entirely meaningless in the current continuity? What if he lives in a community that doesn't even have a LCS?

Don't get me wrong: I think digital comics are worth trying. They're pretty easy to upload and distribute, and maybe they'll garner some attention. At the very least, I think they'd be fools not to at least try it.

But eventually someone in the industry is going to have to admit that the only way they can survive is to again reach out to mass retailers. It's no coincidence that cover prices have soared as the print runs have gotten smaller. Paper and shipping costs have risen, yes, but economies of scale should take care of the apparently escalating cost of writers and artists. The industry has effectively insulated itself from the public, relying way too much on the sale of movie rights to offset the effects of their short-sighted withdrawal from the marketplace.

When Batman opened in 1989, it led to a boon for the industry. Yet The Dark Knight, whose box office take eclipsed its Bat-predecessor, did not make an impact. Why? Because kids who were oblivious to comic books before still weren't exposed to them. My first Batman comic book was Detective Comics #603, which I bought at a gas station after having seen Batman. I had, to that point, not set foot in a comic book shop in my entire life. The Dark Knight audience never even had that opportunity.

It may have made some money had there been readily available digital comics in 2008, but the thing is you still have to actively go looking for those online. There's no equivalent to placing a spindle of comics next to a checkout register and letting the covers call for attention from people in a store who may not have even been thinking about comic books when they walked in and began shopping.

brayzie
06-03-11, 02:32 PM
When Batman opened in 1989, it led to a boon for the industry. Yet The Dark Knight, whose box office take eclipsed its Bat-predecessor, did not make an impact. Why? Because kids who were oblivious to comic books before still weren't exposed to them. My first Batman comic book was Detective Comics #603, which I bought at a gas station after having seen Batman. I had, to that point, not set foot in a comic book shop in my entire life. The Dark Knight audience never even had that opportunity.

Same for me, except it was #602, it was in a 7-11, and I almost didn't find it becuase I was looking for "BATMAN," and not something called "Detective Comics."

One more thing I noticed. Companies usually use primary colors to catch kids attention to products. That's why superheroes are so brightly colored.

When I look at the comic rack at Borders, Archie and those kids comics stick out, but the Marvel/DC stuff looks kind of the same. Darky, muddy painted covers, and they all look very mature in content.

Travis McClain
06-03-11, 02:47 PM
Same for me, except it was #602, it was in a 7-11, and I almost didn't find it becuase I was looking for "BATMAN," and not something called "Detective Comics."

One more thing I noticed. Companies usually use primary colors to catch kids attention to products. That's why superheroes are so brightly colored.

When I look at the comic rack at Borders, Archie and those kids comics stick out, but the Marvel/DC stuff looks kind of the same. Darky, muddy painted covers, and they all look very mature in content.

To wit, here's the cover to 'Tec #603:http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/212/38037_20070922215645_large.jpg

The building has the muddy look you cite in current covers, but Batman is prominent (and blue), and Etrigan is vibrant and in the center of the cover. This is the cover that caught my eye, and like you I had no idea what the hell Detective Comics was. I was afraid it was just a guest appearance by Batman, but I took a chance on it and quickly discovered that it was, in fact, a Batman comic series.

kgrogers1979
06-03-11, 03:50 PM
I started reading comics around the same time. I started with Batman #442.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081219174908/marvel_dc/images/thumb/7/76/Batman_442.jpg/342px-Batman_442.jpg

It was late 1989, and I was 10 years old at the time. I had not yet seen the Batman movie, but I loved watching reruns of the old Adam West show.

There wasn't a local comic store in my town (the first didn't open until 1991), and I had never even looked at a comic before. I was at the grocery store looking at video game magazines when the Robin cover caught me eye. I bought it and read through it cover to cover twice that same day. Even though it was actually the fifth and final part of the "A Lonely Place of Dying" story arc and I hadn't read the first four parts, I still loved every minute of it. It boggled my 10 year old mind how drastically different the comic was from the Adam West show. The language and violence and seeing Dick as Nightwing and reading about a second Robin being brutally killed by Joker amazed me. That was the beginning of my comic addiction.

brayzie
06-03-11, 04:12 PM
I take it back, THIS was my first Batman comic.

http://comicmegastore.com/images/batman-1940-current/batman-comic-435.jpg bought in Walden Books

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/7/7c/Detective_Comics_602.jpg7-11

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/c/cf/Batman_436.jpgdrug store spinner rack

Good times.

Even though I hadn't seen the Adam West show, I too was a little taken back by the violent nature of the comics. In Year 3, there's a flash back to a midget Joker beating Robin with a crow bar, and the next scene Robin's face is horribly disfigured and he's tied to a chair with a time bomb in the room.

Then Dick Grayson's parents were shown falling from their trapeze act, screaming to their deaths. The villain stabbed some guy in a bar, and then slashed a nuns face.

And this was all in a Code Approved comic.

fumanstan
06-03-11, 04:13 PM
Somewhat related, but when the Watchmen movie came out it did show up for sale at places like Target. What's kind of cool is that some new Marvel toys that I saw at Target also include an issue Secret Wars that feature those characters.

I'm just a casual reader that buys a trade every now and then, but I think Marvel and DC need and can do better promotional work to tie in their comics with the movies other then a small little display at a book store that few people travel in to. Digital can help, but they need to promote it better. Have the entire story arcs that some of the movies take themes from available, or cheaper digitally that folks can read on their iPad's. Have Bane in the upcoming Dark Knight Rises? Sell Knightfall for $10 digitally.

kgrogers1979
06-03-11, 04:17 PM
Four new Green Lantern titles announced

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/03/green-lantern-1s/

GREEN LANTERN #1

Geoff Johns has been charting the adventures of Hal Jordan and the GREEN LANTERN Corps since GREEN LANTERN: Rebirth, collaborating with such major artists as Ethan Van Sciver, Darwyn Cooke, Prentis Rollins, Marlo Alquiza and Mick Gray.

This fall, Johns reunites with artists Doug Mahnke and Christian Alamy, as the series begins anew with GREEN LANTERN #1 with cover by Ivan Reis and Joe Prado. Together they will continue to thrill readers and expand the Green Lantern mythos.

Change is coming. But set aside your fear. It’ll be worth the wait.

Additional titles include:

GREEN LANTERN CORPS #1

When deadly conflicts emerge across the universe, it’s up to Guy Gardner, John Stewart and an elite Green Lantern strike force to keep the peace.

GREEN LANTERN CORPS #1 will be written by Peter J. Tomasi with art by Fernando Pasarin and Scott Hanna. The cover to #1 is by Doug Mahnke and Christian Alamy.

GREEN LANTERN: THE NEW GUARDIANS #1

Who are The New Guardians?

The power of Rage, Avarice, Fear, Will, Hope, Compassion and Love combine to be the most powerful (and colorful) team in the corps under the leadership of Kyle Rayner. Beware their power . . . and their volatility!

GREEN LANTERN: THE NEW GUARDIANS #1 will be written by Tony Bedard and illustrated with cover by Tyler Kirkham and Batt.

RED LANTERNS #1

Going solo. Atrocitus and his Red Lantern Corps return in their own series, battling against injustice in the most bloody ways imaginable. This Lantern Corps takes no prisoners, they are judge, jury and executioners!

RED LANTERNS #1 will be written by Peter Milligan with art and cover by Ed Benes and Rob Hunter.

It doesn't seem like Green Lantern is going to be affected much by the reboot, so this gives me hope it may not be as big a deal as I first feared. So long as the rumors of Superman: One More Day and Babs as Batgirl don't come true...

brayzie
06-03-11, 04:23 PM
So it doesn't sound like much of a reboot anymore if Green Lantern is just carrying on, just with a new #.

kgrogers1979
06-03-11, 04:41 PM
So it doesn't sound like much of a reboot anymore if Green Lantern is just carrying on, just with a new #.

Yes and no.

The earlier Firestorm solicit says Ronnie is getting de-aged and becoming a high school student. Also the new JLA origin has Cyborg as a founding member instead of Martian Manhunter.

So some things are definitely changing, although hopefully it won't be as much as first thought.

The CoIE reboot was similar in that some characters were drastically changed and others were barely changed. For example, Superman was drastically changed when John Byrne rebooted him. His power was massively toned down, he was never Superboy, and he became the true last survivor of Krypton with Kara and Krypto wiped from existence. However, Batman was barely changed at all. Other than a new origin for Jason Todd there wasn't any significant difference in the Batman comics.

The Valeyard
06-03-11, 05:09 PM
I feel so old. Everyone's first comics are titles that came out when I was starting college. :(

My first "Batman" comic:

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h433/Andrew_Rubio/Forum%20Pix/e15ec949.jpg

Laertes
06-03-11, 06:49 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/06/jlifinalcover1-1.jpg

I'm attaching the cover for the new Justice League International. I thought I knew my DC (been reading since I was 6 and since we're all sharing--which is cool--my first comic, that I remember, was an old cheap Superman Family I found in a used bookstore. Supergirl was on the cover. I should try and find it). Can you help me? Is that Donna in the bottom left corner? And who is that between Fire and Booster's arm up in the upper right corner?

Thanks.

Sonny Corinthos
06-03-11, 08:12 PM
8 Questions About the DCU Reboot. (http://comics.ign.com/articles/117/1171803p1.html)

Shinobi
06-03-11, 09:32 PM
Is that Donna in the bottom left corner?

At first I heard it was Donna. But then I heard it's a completely new character.

And who is that between Fire and Booster's arm up in the upper right corner?

That would be August General In Iron. He was part of The Great Ten, the premiere Chinese Superteam in the DC Universe.

http://www.comicvine.com/august-general-in-iron/29-41235/

brayzie
06-04-11, 12:01 AM
I feel so old. Everyone's first comics are titles that came out when I was starting college. :(

My first "Batman" comic:

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h433/Andrew_Rubio/Forum%20Pix/e15ec949.jpg

That looks pretty cool. I always liked covers like those that piqued your curiosity and wonder, "How did THAT happen? I MUST buy this issue to find out!"

PhantomStranger
06-04-11, 01:14 AM
It may have made some money had there been readily available digital comics in 2008, but the thing is you still have to actively go looking for those online. There's no equivalent to placing a spindle of comics next to a checkout register and letting the covers call for attention from people in a store who may not have even been thinking about comic books when they walked in and began shopping.
An interesting sidebar to your point, something very interesting showed up at Costco in the last couple of days. Marvel has apparently put three issues of Thor, Captain America, and X-Men together in a plastic bag and is selling them at Costco for a total of $3.79. That is the first time I had ever seen anything like that in a Costco, somewhat tucked away in the book section. I was a little disappointed that DC did not think to do anything like that for Green Lantern.

Travis McClain
06-04-11, 01:20 AM
An interesting sidebar to your point, something very interesting showed up at Costco in the last couple of days. Marvel has apparently put three issues of Thor, Captain America, and X-Men together in a plastic bag and is selling them at Costco for a total of $3.79. That is the first time I had ever seen anything like that in a Costco, somewhat tucked away in the book section. I was a little disappointed that DC did not think to do anything like that for Green Lantern.

Two things:

1) I remember finding lots of such 3-issue packages from both Marvel and DC when I first really began reading comics at places like Value City. The DC collections included a cardboard insert that doubled as a sheet of trading cards you could cut out and collect. Naturally, they never came out properly cut and I should have just preserved the sheet as it was. Those assortments of back issues were the first chance I really had to begin getting caught up as a reader and I cannot emphasize enough the role they played in making me feel comfortable and confident exploring these new worlds.

2) I spent last weekend with my wife and her family in Ohio for her grandmother's 90th birthday. We went to breakfast one morning at a Buehler's grocery (they have a diner inside the grocery story) and on our way out I stopped to browse their magazine selection. DC has put out a magazine sized collection of GL stories, with a $9.99 cover price(!). It seems to me that Marvel has definitely bested DC with their approach.

Laertes
06-04-11, 06:25 AM
At first I heard it was Donna. But then I heard it's a completely new character.



That would be August General In Iron. He was part of The Great Ten, the premiere Chinese Superteam in the DC Universe.

http://www.comicvine.com/august-general-in-iron/29-41235/

Dammit! I should have known that. I read every issue of 52 (probably last set of floppies I bought; oh no wait, i bought Legion of 3 Worlds, because I'm a huge Legion fan).

Thanks for the replies. I will now propose that that's Black Canary in a new costume and no wig. (The blonde hair is the wig and Dinah has dark hair, right? I can't remember. I know Supergirl is blonde and the wig is brown as Linda. My earliest comic book memories, are of me as a wee lad, and Supergirl in back issues of Superman Family when she was in the hot pants look. Yum).

The Valeyard
06-04-11, 03:57 PM
2) I spent last weekend with my wife and her family in Ohio for her grandmother's 90th birthday. We went to breakfast one morning at a Buehler's grocery (they have a diner inside the grocery story) and on our way out I stopped to browse their magazine selection. DC has put out a magazine sized collection of GL stories, with a $9.99 cover price(!). It seems to me that Marvel has definitely bested DC with their approach.

Marvel's doing the same. I've seen Thor and Captain America magazine/comic reprints at grocery stores in my area.


In other news - Barnes & Nobles nationwide are expanding their comic output.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h433/Andrew_Rubio/Forum%20Pix/16c89805.jpg

We'll see how long it lasts.

Travis McClain
06-04-11, 09:49 PM
In other news - Barnes & Nobles nationwide are expanding their comic output.

We'll see how long it lasts.

That's nice, but it still doesn't expand access to comics to a community like mine. Kids out here have no more access to a B&N than to a LCS. We've got them in Louisville, but not in the adjacent county where I live.

MBoyd
06-04-11, 11:19 PM
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/batman/321-1.jpg

My first Batman comic book after being a fan of the cartoons and 60s series in reruns. It just seemed so brutal and dangerous! Warped my mind!

I was still more of a Marvel fan until around Crisis and post Crisis. And Dark Knight Returns of course.

brayzie
06-05-11, 12:42 AM
In other news - Barnes & Nobles nationwide are expanding their comic output.



That picture, in my opinion, is what's kind of wrong with DC and Marvel's line.
It's like, holy crap, which Batman comic do I buy? Which is the real one?

I think that's part of the reason why I've always enjoyed picking up comics from the spinner rack in a drug store. You had Batman, Amazing Spider-man, Action Comics, Uncanny X-Men, The Hulk, Punisher, and Wonder Woman. If you picked up Batman, you went home feeling like THIS is the Batman story.

But going to the comic shop, or in this case B&N, the importance of the story seems less substantial because there's 8 different Batman titles there.

Bronkster
06-05-11, 01:21 AM
At last! My lifelong dream of owning Action Comics #1 is within my reach! :sad:

Travis McClain
06-05-11, 01:28 AM
That picture, in my opinion, is what's kind of wrong with DC and Marvel's line.
It's like, holy crap, which Batman comic do I buy? Which is the real one?

I think that's part of the reason why I've always enjoyed picking up comics from the spinner rack in a drug store. You had Batman, Amazing Spider-man, Action Comics, Uncanny X-Men, The Hulk, Punisher, and Wonder Woman. If you picked up Batman, you went home feeling like THIS is the Batman story.

But going to the comic shop, or in this case B&N, the importance of the story seems less substantial because there's 8 different Batman titles there.

I agree entirely. I talked about all this with a friend of mine last night, and he's a far more dedicated comics reader than I have ever been. I made the remark that it's one thing to run a 22-part storyline, but it's quite another to run a 22-part storyline across five different titles in the span of three months. It's simply overwhelming and discouraging for new readers.

I love episodic storytelling that rewards readers and viewers who invest themselves. TV shows have demonstrated that most of us prefer to have a sense that things are actually going somewhere, that events of one story have consequences on subsequent stories. I'm on board with ongoing story arcs. Having parallel series is not the problem; having a massive storyline told across those parallel series is a problem.

It's okay for a reader to pick up the current issue and say, "This is apparently part #7 of 22 parts," and then decide if he or she wants to track down the preceding six parts. That reader should not, however, have to buy four other issues that same day.

The other part of this is that what frequently forces publishers to hold these reboots from a creative perspective is that they get so carried away allowing writers to do outrageous things that affect nearly every character owned by that publisher that eventually the writers begin to realize they've painted one another into a corner. If these massive storylines were more judiciously metered out and confined to specific characters and their mythos, there'd be less instance of this kind of stuff.

For instance, it's okay if you kill Superman and bring him back. But why does that have to in turn set Hal Jordan off on becoming Parallax? Let Superman die and come back, and let Hal go crazy if you want, but keep them separate. There's no reason that Superman and Green Lantern need to co-mingle their stories. A writer should be able to tell a multiple part Batman story with Robin without worrying about what Robin is also being shown doing in the pages of a Teen Titans storyline on sale at the same time.

The Star Wars Expanded Universe model is infeasible for something like DC Comics to follow, and yet I keep feeling like that's their template. Each story has to "build on" other stories, which sounds like a reward for loyal readers. But eventually it becomes an unwieldy, impenetrable mess for newcomers. The only way to guard against that kind of mess is to make stories accessible, and someone at the top needs to understand that may mean telling established readers that they're going to have to make do with one or two storylines per principle character, told in one or two ongoing titles. Let Batman readers be able to ignore Detective Comics and vice versa. If Batman and Detective Comics are done well, they'll maintain respectable sales.

Travis McClain
06-05-11, 01:32 AM
At last! My lifelong dream of owning Action Comics #1 is within my reach! :sad:

Funny you say this, because last night I actually bought Action Comics #1 at Half Price Books! It was a 1988 reprint, but it's still nice to say.

fujishig
06-05-11, 09:57 AM
The current speculation is that this will just be a new "event" catered around the Flash where he crosses over to this new universe, then will slowly start to figure out that things are not feeling right. After he crosses back that universe will be their version of the Ultimate brand and things will go back to the way they were.

Where did you see this rumor?

The lead in to all this is a crossover called Flashpoint, where the Flash gets lost in another universe where everything is changed, and he and Booster Gold try to fix it. After this concludes, we go back to the "real" DC Earth, but apparently things are still a little screwed up (but not as much as in Flashpoint Earth), thus the differences in universes. It'd be really lame if the concept of this new universe was just an extension of the lead-in mini.

Of course Green Lantern is untouched. First off, Johns writes it, and he's the architect of the new universe. Second, Green Lantern and Batman are the top selling titles DC has, I doubt Batman changes all that much either. But there are significant changes. de-aging Ronnie, Cyborg being more prominent, Captain Atom becoming Dr. Manhatten in some weird case of irony, Hawkman becoming Wolverine, etc.

The kid who gets his first Ipad four months into the reboot can easily buy back issues, and the back issues will actually be cheaper. However, there will have to be a huge marketing push for the comicology app, and I think a change in the interface to make it easier to load/buy. At least the last time I used it, it wasn't great in terms of browsing titles, which is a huge thing As I said before, they give away some comics for free now, and I doubt the downloads even for those are that significant.

edited to add: I guess those reports of the bigger B&N comic sections are true, and probably timed to coincide with the don't-call-it-a-reboot, which makes sense, and allays the concerns about people being confused by different bat books, etc. Still, how long before that section is trashed like the manga section usually is? Which I guess is ok if new fans are actually reading it, but at some point they have to actually be buying it to make a difference, right? Which brings me to something else I actually always wondered... how many people actually buy magazines from bookstores these days at cover price? They have such a wide selection, I guess there are impulse buys, but I'd think the majority of them are returned to the publishers.

kgrogers1979
06-05-11, 10:22 AM
This is just a rumor so far, but this is supposedly the cover to Batman #1.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2420/batman1w.jpg

WTF is up with Riddler's hair? Its like a mohawk shaped into a question mark. I know DC is trying to be younger and hipper, but that is just plain retarded.

Also is that Pyg on the left? It looks like it may be, so perhaps Morrison's work won't be retconned and there won't be too much rebooting in the Batverse. Other than Riddler's stupid haircut.

slop101
06-05-11, 10:44 AM
Looks like Batman's getting a boner from beating people up.

Travis McClain
06-05-11, 01:16 PM
Where did you see this rumor?

I'm hardly a well-informed reader these days, but it seems like DC themselves have implied this with their "don't call it a reboot" statement. If this is supposed to stop short of being a reboot, then it stands to reason that more things are staying the same than changing.

The kid who gets his first Ipad four months into the reboot can easily buy back issues, and the back issues will actually be cheaper. However, there will have to be a huge marketing push for the comicology app, and I think a change in the interface to make it easier to load/buy. At least the last time I used it, it wasn't great in terms of browsing titles, which is a huge thing As I said before, they give away some comics for free now, and I doubt the downloads even for those are that significant.

That kid can still at best only have access to whatever back issues exist as digital comics, though. Also, I was trying to raise the question of how the digital comic model makes younger readers conscious of comics. To even find them you do sort of have to know to go looking for them, or at the very least buy e-books from a retailer who allocates promotional space on their site for digital comics.

Regarding back issue prices, that's a variable. Since I got back into reading in the last year or so I've managed to find most of what I want at less than cover price by being patient and selective, and willing to thumb through the quarter boxes. Just yesterday I picked up Action Comics #901, the current issue, for $1.22. (And yes, I realize that buying the current issue used means I have actively cheapened the new issue sales upon which DC relies. It's the first such current issue I've bought this way.)

I guess those reports of the bigger B&N comic sections are true, and probably timed to coincide with the don't-call-it-a-reboot, which makes sense, and allays the concerns about people being confused by different bat books, etc.

There's still nothing comparable to the drugstore spindle. Yes, the selection was meager, the only back issues were last month's lingerers that hadn't been removed, etc. But consider all the kids whose parents don't frequent a national chain bookseller like B&N, or don't even have such a bookseller in their community. Let's face it: parents don't promote reading because they're not much on reading, themselves. Exposure to print--regardless of medium--is dwindling and it's not because kids won't read. It's because parents aren't asking them to read, or even cultivating an environment in which kids even think of reading as anything more than an obnoxious part of school.

By relying on B&N as its mass retailer, the comics industry is still only preaching to the converted.

Travis McClain
06-05-11, 01:22 PM
Incidentally, Ty Templeton just responded to a post (http://tytempletonart.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/52-new-bun-toons-titles-all-at-once-yay/#comment-3147) of mine on his blog about this very subject. I really do recommend taking a look at the initial post, which is a cartoon satirizing DC's 52 #1s scheme, but for the lazy here are his remarks about the subject of comic sales. My apologies for the large block of text, but that's exactly how he posted it, and I'm not about to take it upon myself to edit the guy.

During the 90s, there was a company called VIZ publishing, that was absolutely insistent on reaching kids where they were, not where comics were. They were available in TOYS R US stores, they were available in book stores, they were available on the same magazine racks that sold Time Magazine. They were printed on cheap newsprint, and had TONS of stories in each issue, of characters that kids saw on their TV shows. The characters included Naruto, Pokemon, Dragon Ball, etc. And you know what…? Viz comics sold in the hundreds of thousands. Their main book (Shonen Jump) had a regular circulation of over HALF A MILLION each month. And when you brought this to the attention of comic creators, that Viz was monumentally kicking Marvel’s ass, each and every month, you’d get the same response every time….”That’s not really comics, so it doesn’t count”. Oblivious to the fact that kids were reading it in droves, you’d still hear that X-Men was the best selling comic in North America, even though it wasn’t in the top ten. Disney Adventures Comics used to do a hell of a lot more than X-Men did, because it was available in grocery stores, next to the equally best selling Archie Digests. Comics as a medium do just fine if you get them to the people who might want to read them. Superman and Batman Magazine (available through Welch Publishing and Publisher’s Clearing House) had a SUBSCRIPTION rate of 400,000 readers each month, but when Welch was picked up by Marvel, and they canceled the book (obviously) DC had no interest in relaunching it as their own title. The only conclusion one can reach is that the folks “in charge”, have no interest in being a profitable business model. They’re only interested in maintaining the dwindling market that’s stuck in a death spiral.
You want to save comics? Print them on newsprint, sell them in variety stores again, and stop catering to super-hero fans and comic stores to the detriment of the industry. But it’s not like that’s news.

That'sAllFolks
06-05-11, 03:37 PM
My first Batman was around #243. I was mostly a Batman and Spiderman fan. I also remember hiding Supergirl #1 at my local Sellers (like a 7-11) until I got my allowance thinking, like Superman it would be worth a lot one day!

I haven't collected comics for 25 years. I had my own comic shop in the early 80's and my father used to speculate in buying the character toys -- we still have some old Megos in the attic. I have read some comics here and there over the years and thought they were pretty good. I was out of comics by the time the real speculation of the 90's started -- though I do remember Spiderman #1 being released in several different kinds of covers.

This kind of wide reboot only hurts comics. The big thing about comics for me was continuity and actually making reference to things that happen in the past as being catalysts for future events. People get hooked on something because they want to see what's next. If they are constantly starting over, there's no big incentive to to buy the next issue. That's why people watch soaps (or at least used to).

I do agree with one poster in that they need to make things a little more simple and not try to do tie-ins across every book they have just to get a complete story. I remember Marvel did this with Secret Wars and for the most part, it was just too much for most readers --- though at that time I collected almost every superhero book anyway. Perhaps long mini-series are the way to go. The one thing that they really should NOT do is allow digital downloads the same day as new releases. Maybe wait a month for the digital downloads so as not to strangle the comic shops that still survive. There used to be a ton of comic shops in Houston, now I think there are only 1 or 2 decent ones left. This could really backfire if they aren't careful.

And not allowing Action and Detective to get to 1000 is beyond a travesty.

kgrogers1979
06-05-11, 05:06 PM
And not allowing Action and Detective to get to 1000 is beyond a travesty.


DC has been quiet on the Batman and Superman front, so we don't know if they are getting renumbered or not. Action is still 8 years away from reaching #1000 though (assuming a consistent monthly schedule is maintained). There is a 99.9% chance that even if it is renumbered to #1 it will have gone back to original numbering in 8 years time.

resinrats
06-05-11, 05:34 PM
Has it said how much digital comics are going to cost? Also, how much does DC make off each issue? Say an issue is $2.99, how much of that goes to DC? I can see it backfiring if it causes a lot of comic stores to close since they'd loose that revenue.

Personally, I wouldn't want digital comics. I like holding an issue to read, not look at a screen. IDW has digital comics & my friend has some. He said you can't actually download them, just few them. If I am paying for something, I want to own it and no be dependent on the service always being there.

Laertes
06-05-11, 05:59 PM
Anyone know what's happening with Grant Morrison's "Multiversity"? I thought it sounded like it would be fun. Is it dead?

fujishig
06-05-11, 06:52 PM
Incidentally, Ty Templeton just responded to a post (http://tytempletonart.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/52-new-bun-toons-titles-all-at-once-yay/#comment-3147) of mine on his blog about this very subject. I really do recommend taking a look at the initial post, which is a cartoon satirizing DC's 52 #1s scheme, but for the lazy here are his remarks about the subject of comic sales. My apologies for the large block of text, but that's exactly how he posted it, and I'm not about to take it upon myself to edit the guy.

The thing about Viz is that these are reprints of manga licensed from Japan, taken from the original black and white, emulating the much more successful (and much bigger page count wise) Japanese Shonen Jump and other manga anthologies. It's not just the newsprint that's making it cheaper, the licensing is completely different, and this is a secondary market for it. The breadth of the manga market in Japan is due to the large readership, and it's much easier to pick and choose which ones would be successful over here (not to mention, most of the Shonen Jump stuff in the American anthology, with the exception of maybe Hikaru No Go, are basically super hero-like titles).

That's not to say that DC and Marvel shouldn't try to make cheaper, magazine-like periodicals using reprints and the like, but putting it on newsprint and in black and white would affect the art, especially stuff that relies on modern coloring techniques. And this would be in addition to the monthly comics they're putting out, which would be the source material that would enable the anthology to be cheaper. It's not as simple as emulating Viz. The other argument has always been, put out manga-like collections, but they've tried that too. And the manga market domestically is in a huge slump, with Tokyopop shutting down publishing here.

As an aside, it's interesting that Viz is held up as a pioneer here, when for the longest time they cut up manga into American-comic-sized pieces that sold for pretty high prices, until Tokyopop brought over the Japanese tankouban model (they even did the anthology first) and got manga into bookstores.

Digital comics are going to cost the same as the monthly comic for now. After a month (or something like that) they will drop a buck, which is where I was getting the whole "cheaper back issues" thing. The good thing about digital is that if you pick up #4 and you like it, it's easy to pick up and find #1 to #3. This is one of the advantages of the reboot, if they make it so that you really don't need to pick up issues prior to the new #1s to understand the story. It does simplify the process a lot.

DC has said that this is not a complete reboot but they are selectively rebooting characters and concepts and keeping others, on a much bigger scale (supposedly) than even Crisis. I'm not saying that they won't go back in a year, but there's no way that's their current plan, because they would be ticking off all the new readers they're trying to gather, and there's no guarantee that the old readers who left because of the reboot would come back.

If anything, I think Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns's storylines are the safest, like I said before they put out the top selling books and Johns is the architect of DC right now.

As far as reading comics on a screen, the one new technology that has turned this around, at least for me, is the iPad and other tablets. Why Marvel hasn't yet come out with an app for their subscription service is beyond me. I realize most are not going to use their iPads for comic books, but that's gotta be what DC and others are counting on.

Adam Tyner
06-05-11, 07:33 PM
Has it said how much digital comics are going to cost? Also, how much does DC make off each issue? Say an issue is $2.99, how much of that goes to DC? I can see it backfiring if it causes a lot of comic stores to close since they'd loose that revenue.Mark Millar says that at least for the deal he was offered, Apple gets 30%, and Comixology takes half of what's left. I'm sure DC is getting a better deal than that. Dark Horse said that Comixology and iVerse take anywhere from 10%-15%, so I guess there's a volume discount. So, that'd be as much as 55% for DC and, if everyone's getting the same bum deal Mark Millar is, as little as 35%.

Even if only 10% or 15% is going to Comixology, that's a lot of money being left on the table if digital really takes off. Dark Horse probably did it right by just creating their own store. Didn't anyone learn anything from Diamond's monopoly? I haven't used Dark Horse's app on my iPad, but the one that DoubleFeature (http://doublefeaturecomics.com/) put together handles the reading experience pretty much perfectly. Clearly the cost to get an app like this off the ground isn't astronomical. I'm happy with the way Comixology works when I'm actually reading a comic, but the way they handle searching/browsing and the inability to group/filter is pretty terrible. I don't think they're doing much to justify the cut they're taking.

resinrats
06-05-11, 09:28 PM
How much does DC get for a physical issue? I know they sell to Diamond & Diamon sells to LCS. Both have to make a profit.

Josh-da-man
06-05-11, 09:51 PM
DC's comics that are being released "day and date" will cost the same as their paper counterparts, $2.99 for a standard length issue. After one month the price will drop to $1.99.

As to how much DC gets from physical comics, the retailer discounts go up to something like 55% for the biggest retail accounts, and I think Diamond takes something like 10-15%, so I think DC probably gets something like 40% of the cover price. I'm not completely sure about Diamond's cut, but I sort of remember it being in that ballpark in the 90s, though that could have changed and it probably depends on what kind of contract the publisher has with Diamond. I'm sure Marvel and DC have good deals.

brayzie
06-05-11, 10:49 PM
I really do recommend taking a look at the initial post, which is a cartoon satirizing DC's 52 #1s scheme, but for the lazy here are his remarks about the subject of comic sales.

I forgot about Disney Adventures Digest. That was a fun little book. It had Uncle Scrooge, Talespin, and Chip N Dale stories inside, interviews with some teen celebrities, science contests, etc. Didn't know it sold that well though.

Now that it's brought up, why not go with the Digest format? No kid cares about Mr. Terrific or Deadman. Just focus on the big names.

brayzie
06-05-11, 10:55 PM
This kind of wide reboot only hurts comics. The big thing about comics for me was continuity and actually making reference to things that happen in the past as being catalysts for future events. People get hooked on something because they want to see what's next. If they are constantly starting over, there's no big incentive to to buy the next issue. That's why people watch soaps (or at least used to).



Good point. That said there probably should be a balance though. INFINITE CRISIS is only accessible to hard core comic readers. I was trying to explain to my friend Superman, Superman from Earth-1, Superboy, Superboy Prime, the previous Crisis On Infinite Earths, etc. It's gotten to the point that you need Wikipedia to make sense of the stories.

I prefer the continuity of The Simpsons and I think that DC and Marvel should be more like that.

kgrogers1979
06-06-11, 12:54 AM
The new Nightwing outfit.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/ntw_cv1.jpg

brayzie
06-06-11, 06:22 PM
The more I read about this, the less I believe it's an honest attempt to attract a new audience, than it is, one more attempt to bleed older readers out of their cash.


Batman #1
Batman The Dark Knight #1
Batman Inc #1
Batman & Robin #1
Detective Comics #1

Also:
Batgirl #1
Batwing #1
Batwoman #1
Nightwing #1

The reason I think this is because in the late 80s and early 90s when you only had 2 Bat-titles, they were selling 300,000+ copies.

Today, the top selling Batman comic averages 60,000 copies. Considering new readers, ie kids, don't have alot of mone/allowance to spend, I can only see the multitude of Batman titles as being discouraging to them.

I'm a Batman fan now, and even I don't know where to start when going to the comic shop. "Which comic is the MAIN one," I'm thinking. "I think Batman & Robin is the main one, because of Grant Morrison, but this issue is mostly about some red headed guy in prison and Thundercats. Maybe BATMAN is the one to buy, but if there's no Damien does that mean...What's this Batman: Arkham City? Is it in continuity?"

I'm an adult and I'm not going to be buying all these different Bat-titles each month just to get the whole story is not something I want to do. Even as a kid, I like to follow one or two titles every month, and once in a while try something new. I don't have the cash or the time to be buying and reading all these comics featuring the same character.

kgrogers1979
06-06-11, 06:59 PM
Its official. Babs is Batgirl again. :brickwl2:

I think I am pretty much done with collecting comic books. As bad as a rep the 90s gets, I enjoyed that decade more than I have enjoyed this decade. Unless this reboot gets absolutely stellar reviews, I doubt if I will be buying any new comics any longer. I have thousands of comics from the 80s and 90s I can re-read whenever I get the itch to read comics.

Travis McClain
06-06-11, 07:05 PM
I'm an adult and I'm not going to be buying all these different Bat-titles each month just to get the whole story is not something I want to do. Even as a kid, I like to follow one or two titles every month, and once in a while try something new. I don't have the cash or the time to be buying and reading all these comics featuring the same character.

I look back on my heyday as a reader in the 90s, and while I don't regret delving into Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Star Trek and Star Wars comics, I do wish that those five things hadn't wiped out my entire budget--and that was after passing on quite a lot of annuals, one-shots, trade paperback collections, graphic novels, crossovers/guest appearances in other titles and mini-series. Had there not been one or more Batman and Superman comics a week, I would gladly have explored Bone and Strangers in Paradise while they were active titles. I loved The Tick animated series, but only recently bought my first Tick comics in large part because their $2.99 cover price at the time represented that week's Batman & Superman issues in my budget.

I guess my point would be that, while I appreciate some characters have much greater popularity than others, maybe it's a good thing for the industry not to allow a few characters to dominate the shelves. No one forced me to get into Batman or Superman, but because I did get into them, it was a sort of black hole of a commitment just to keep up with it because of the massive stories told across so many titles.

I mean, hell, at one time I was buying Batman, Batman: Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Detective Comics and Robin just to keep up with one storyline...and that was on top of The Batman Adventures (or whichever incarnation was in print at the time) and Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight (which, for a brief time, was also drawn into participating in the main story). By the time I had become exhausted with all the Bat-books, I had become so burned out that even when I quit buying those I just didn't even want to begin exploring Bone, Strangers in Paradise or The Tick or anything else and I just quit buying comics altogether until recently.

JasonF
06-06-11, 09:25 PM
iFanboy is compiling a definitive list of the titles/creative teams/covers that have been announced so far:

http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/The_Definitive_Guide_To_The_DC_Comics_Reboot

boredsilly
06-07-11, 10:05 AM
I'm an adult and I'm not going to be buying all these different Bat-titles each month just to get the whole story is not something I want to do. Even as a kid, I like to follow one or two titles every month, and once in a while try something new. I don't have the cash or the time to be buying and reading all these comics featuring the same character.

To be fair, while there are a lot of Batman books, they aren't really reliant and dependent on each other. They seem to all tell their own stories, just featuring the same character, unless something like Return of Rhas Al Ghul or something comes along which ties the books together.

But I do hear what you're saying.

Timber
06-07-11, 10:43 AM
Damn it, the only thing that could get me to by a DC comic (and at this point any comic in general) is Jim Lee. I hate myself for being a Jim Lee fanboy.

I didn't read all 5 pages but this is obviously just a limited storyline and the numbering will go back when the story is done. See Heroes Reborn, see Age of Apocalypse.

fujishig
06-07-11, 11:44 AM
Damn it, the only thing that could get me to by a DC comic (and at this point any comic in general) is Jim Lee. I hate myself for being a Jim Lee fanboy.

I didn't read all 5 pages but this is obviously just a limited storyline and the numbering will go back when the story is done. See Heroes Reborn, see Age of Apocalypse.

Maybe you should re-read the details...

Timber
06-07-11, 12:02 PM
Maybe you should re-read the details...

I just did, I still don't see where it says it's a permanent change in numbering and or character history.

PhantomStranger
06-07-11, 12:14 PM
DC is being very cagey right now about the numbering issue, trying to ramp up fanboy angst to generate publicity. Action and Detective will definitely go back to the classic numbering at some point. I do think some of the character revamps will be permanent. Wally West fans better accept Barry Allen as the main Flash now, because certain characters are definitely getting less attention moving forward. Returning Barbara Gordon to the role of Batgirl is interesting, that seems a move largely dictated to get the mainstream understanding of the character in line with the comics.

FantasticVSDoom
06-07-11, 12:26 PM
I was excited about hearing the news of digital comics getting more of a push and thinking "Maybe Ill come back and stay back now." Then I read about Batgirl and decided "naw, same old shit..."

fujishig
06-07-11, 12:39 PM
I just did, I still don't see where it says it's a permanent change in numbering and or character history.

They are canceling most current titles and relaunching with 52 #1 issues, proclaiming that most things are changing, including their most iconic characters, and declaring that this is the perfect jumping on point for new readers. They are doing this to get new readers, not to please the existing fanbase. It would be suicide for this to be a planned "Age of Apocalypse" type story with a definite end, and not say that in the beginning, because you're going to tick off the new readers, who aren't going to put up with the shenanigans.

I'm not saying that they won't do this eventually if sales tank and they realize it's better to have the old fogey readers than none at all (though I'm not sure all would come back), but I can't see this as part of the plan. They change Superman to an electrical entity, or they break Batman's back, sure, those are big events, but you know it'll go back to status quo. Do it Heroes Reborn style and keep the majority of the books in the "old" universe, sure, that'll go back eventually. But reboot a ton of characters and almost the entire line of comic books... how long did it take them to unwind Crisis (which I still think was a monumentally bad idea, and probably started all this)?

Timber
06-07-11, 12:53 PM
The old fogey is their audience and that's not going to change. It's an incredibly tight rope to walk when they they're trying to say to new readers that "look our characters are young and hip and you can even read the first issue" then put the classic version on screen. It's always going to go back to catering to the fogey's because they're the only ones that can put their minds around 5 different versions and origins of the same character.

And keep in mind that this is only a perfect jumping on point for one month. It's one of the reasons that all of the Marvel reboots always go back to normal along with the old numbering. How easy is Daredevil to jump on now? Captain America?

fujishig
06-07-11, 01:07 PM
The old fogey is their audience and that's not going to change. It's an incredibly tight rope to walk when they they're trying to say to new readers that "look our characters are young and hip and you can even read the first issue" then put the classic version on screen. It's always going to go back to catering to the fogey's because they're the only ones that can put their minds around 5 different versions and origins of the same character.

And keep in mind that this is only a perfect jumping on point for one month. It's one of the reasons that all of the Marvel reboots always go back to normal along with the old numbering. How easy is Daredevil to jump on now? Captain America?

As for the jumping on point, the difference here is day and date digital distribution. Missed issues 1-3? They're available online, and cheaper to boot. Hopefully they sell cheaper collections that digitally that are easy to get. That doesn't help the local comic store, but as discussed before, the LCS gets screwed here in more ways than one.

The problem with the old fogeys: you are alienating this readership with this move. You are basically telling them that all the stories they invested in for the past few months/years/whatever never happened, which is a tough sell for a community so invested in continuity. Granted, this happens all the time in comics, but this makes it blatantly obvious.

Now it may be true that we are sufficiently addicted to monthly comics that it doesn't matter how much you abuse us, we'll come back. But if you lose even a small fraction of the already small and diminishing audience and if you don't at least replace that same number with new readers, that's bad. Personally, this moves me to official wait-fot-the-trade mentality for DC and only if things get reviewed well. That may not make much difference in the bottom line for DC, but a lot of comics and characters I've loyally collected for years monthly will be dropped. So hopefully they use this opportunity to put out some awesome books.

madcougar
06-07-11, 04:37 PM
DC has been quiet on the Batman and Superman front, so we don't know if they are getting renumbered or not. Action is still 8 years away from reaching #1000 though (assuming a consistent monthly schedule is maintained). There is a 99.9% chance that even if it is renumbered to #1 it will have gone back to original numbering in 8 years time.

DC is being very cagey right now about the numbering issue, trying to ramp up fanboy angst to generate publicity. Action and Detective will definitely go back to the classic numbering at some point.

Completely agree. For the record, I think that this is a one year "stunt" myself and that next summer everything that didn't work goes away, everything that worked stays, and we get back some of the old stuff like Oracle.

The more I read about this, the less I believe it's an honest attempt to attract a new audience, than it is, one more attempt to bleed older readers out of their cash.

My thoughts exactly. In my obvious-to-me-tounge-in-cheek post on page one I said that most existing fans would not be able to resist the new books. I stand by this assesment. Oh sure some folks will FINALLY quit, but the possible gains with new readers outweigh the losses. I for one am giving picking some of these up serious consideration and I stopped collecting 3 years ago.

The problem with the old fogeys: you are alienating this readership with this move. You are basically telling them that all the stories they invested in for the past few months/years/whatever never happened, which is a tough sell for a community so invested in continuity. Granted, this happens all the time in comics, but this makes it blatantly obvious.

Now it may be true that we are sufficiently addicted to monthly comics that it doesn't matter how much you abuse us, we'll come back. But if you lose even a small fraction of the already small and diminishing audience and if you don't at least replace that same number with new readers, that's bad.

I think DC and Marvel could put us over a barrel and abuse our nether regions and it would be OK with the average comic book fan. You would think that the price of these things would be enough to drive the hard-core collector away, but nope. I see people driving cars being kept together with duct tape buying hundreds of dollars worth of stuff at the comic book store. If the $3 didn't drive us all off, screwing with continuity isn't going to do it.

Honestly, as long as they keep most of the biggies (Supes is from Krypton, Bats parents were killed, and so on), most people won't care. How many times has a new writer taken a left turn with a character, only to see new writers basically throw that stuff in the lake when they take over? No revamp. No new number 1 issue. And yet that's OK with everyone.

kgrogers1979
06-07-11, 05:14 PM
Oh sure some folks will FINALLY quit, but the possible gains with new readers outweigh the losses.

Possible gains =/= real gains

The constant dwindling of sales over the last 15 or so years would seem to indicate that the number of new readers gained is less than the number of long-term readers whom get fed up and quit.

Really I think the written comic book is a thing of the past. Reading, even reading comics, is not something kids today are into. Kids today would rather play video games. I don't think it is a coincidence that the video game industry went mainstream in the mid/late 90s with the Playstation and that is the same time when the comic industry started dying. Comics are a hobby for old people that grew up reading them in the 60s/70s/80s. Most kids today aren't going to get into an old school hobby anymore than they are going to start playing old NES games.

The average comic book reader is probably in his 30s. I think that in 30 years give or take when the average comic book reader is dying of old age, the entire comic book industry is going to die as well. I really don't see the industry surviving that much longer. Superheroes like Batman and Superman will live on in other forms besides the written comic form. We are actually starting to see a migration of that now with all the superhero movies and TV shows now being produced. Smallville lasted for 10 years, beating out many similar shows. Kids will watch a movie or TV show, but they won't read a comic book. The days of the written comic book are numbered.



If the $3 didn't drive us all off, screwing with continuity isn't going to do it.


For me personally, continuity is a big deal, a much bigger deal than a price tag. I love continuity, and Marvel's screwing with it in the 90s is precisely why I abandoned them and never bought another Marvel comic since then. DC is getting to that point now. Barbara returning as Batgirl is a huge slap in the face to me.

Josh-da-man
06-07-11, 05:24 PM
I don't know what to think of Justice League Dark starring John "Hellblazer" Constantine, Shade the Changing Man, Deadman and Madame Xanadu.

I'm ambivalent on it... on one hand, it sounds kind of atrocious; on the other its being written by Peter Milligan (who wrote Vertigo's Shade and is currently doing a great run on Hellblazer) and might be kind of a throwback to the pre-Vertigo, late 80s dark side of the DCU.

I, Vampire looks like it's going to be kind of Twilight-y, but might not end up being too bad.

Demon Knights is being written by Cornell, so it might have some promise. Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE might not be bad, either, as it looks like a continuation of Morrison's take from Seven Soldiers.

Click here for official details and cover images. (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/07/dc-embraces-its-dark-side/)

Travis McClain
06-07-11, 08:44 PM
I'm reluctant to be a Monday morning quarterback but the admittedly bad shape of sales suggests to me that the changes that need to take place aren't coming from the top. But they haven't asked me, so whatever. We'll see what happens but I'll go ahead and admit I'm not really buying new comics. Now, maybe I'm the problem because I'm not actively supporting the publishers. I would argue that they're the problem, continuing to fail to attract my money. I want to enjoy new comics, I really do, but every time I think I'll give them another chance, I take a gander and am entirely unimpressed.

It's bad enough to have massive storylines, but too often in the last several years I'll take the time to get a new issue of something and by the end of 22 pages I feel like I was only given a teaser. Say what you will about "KnightFall," but at least each issue was crafted to be satisfying on its own. Batman rounding up Arkham escapees one and two at a time, that worked. We understood that this was just one event in a large sequence, but at least each issue was an event. I read Identity Crisis when it was published and instead of following a series I was looking through a collection of trailers.

Stories don't need to be self-contained, but I feel like they're drawing out a solid five-parter into a 20-parter just to suggest an epic scale. When I was an active reader, there was a sense that a story had to warrant being spread across more than one issue. Now it seems that each story is expected to be stretched out. I'm getting cranky in my old age, but I don't like six minute long album cuts with self-indulgent guitar solos on radio and I don't like comic book stories spread across more issues than is really necessary. I also don't like the designated hitter, people who treat animals like fashion accessories or reality TV shows about trophy wives.

brayzie
06-07-11, 10:25 PM
They are canceling most current titles and relaunching with 52 #1 issues, proclaiming that most things are changing, including their most iconic characters, and declaring that this is the perfect jumping on point for new readers. They are doing this to get new readers, not to please the existing fanbase.
I find that hard to believe considering that Green Lantern and Batman are still continuing the stories from RIP and Blackest Night with their #1 issues.

Not to mention oversaturating the market with 5 different Batman titles.


It would be suicide for this to be a planned "Age of Apocalypse" type story with a definite end, and not say that in the beginning, because you're going to tick off the new readers, who aren't going to put up with the shenanigans.


Supposedly, killing off the Flash 6 issues into his relaunch was all part of the plan according to Didio.

JMS revamping Wonder Woman only to have her revamped/relaunched/rebooted again for the new #1's was all part of the plan.

Travis McClain
06-07-11, 11:23 PM
Supposedly, killing off the Flash 6 issues into his relaunch was all part of the plan according to Didio.

JMS revamping Wonder Woman only to have her revamped/relaunched/rebooted again for the new #1's was all part of the plan.

I don't claim to know the ins and outs of DC operations or anything, but it's my perception that DiDio is in over his head there. It strikes me that he's one of the industry guys who has operated in isolation so long he's forgotten how to reach outside the direct market to engage anyone, and doesn't realize how important it is to do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but every time I hear him talk in a DCU animated feature interview I just wonder if he has any concept how he sounds to someone who doesn't have a pull list.

PhantomStranger
06-08-11, 01:15 AM
Possible gains =/= real gains

The constant dwindling of sales over the last 15 or so years would seem to indicate that the number of new readers gained is less than the number of long-term readers whom get fed up and quit.

Really I think the written comic book is a thing of the past. Reading, even reading comics, is not something kids today are into. Kids today would rather play video games. I don't think it is a coincidence that the video game industry went mainstream in the mid/late 90s with the Playstation and that is the same time when the comic industry started dying. Comics are a hobby for old people that grew up reading them in the 60s/70s/80s. Most kids today aren't going to get into an old school hobby anymore than they are going to start playing old NES games.

The average comic book reader is probably in his 30s. I think that in 30 years give or take when the average comic book reader is dying of old age, the entire comic book industry is going to die as well. I really don't see the industry surviving that much longer. Superheroes like Batman and Superman will live on in other forms besides the written comic form. We are actually starting to see a migration of that now with all the superhero movies and TV shows now being produced. Smallville lasted for 10 years, beating out many similar shows. Kids will watch a movie or TV show, but they won't read a comic book. The days of the written comic book are numbered.
Sadly, I agree. I do not believe comic books as we know them will survive the transition to the digital world. It is not a coincidence that the last generation of readers that still supports comics currently came of age before the Internet became widespread. Basically the industry is still mining the few people left over from the boom years of the early 90s, which is shrinking in population every year.

Superheroes will survive, but mainly as storytelling vehicles for television and movies.

kgrogers1979
06-08-11, 09:14 AM
Five more titles announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/08/the-next-generation-of-justice/

Oh my god. The Teen Titans redesigns are just embarrassingly idiotic. Conner has never had a great outfit, but this is by FAR his worst. At least Tim is still Red Robin, but the new outfit is incredibly stupid.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/teen_titans_promo.jpg

madcougar
06-08-11, 09:34 AM
Static Shock AND Rob Liefeld!? Hells ya! Make mine DC relaunch!

kgrogers1979
06-08-11, 09:51 AM
I didn't even notice Liefeld's name until you mentioned it. So both he and Jim Lee are in on this reboot. This whole thing is becoming more and more like DC's version of Marvel in the 90s.

I also paid closer attention to the Teen Titans description.

Tim Drake is forced to step out from behind his keyboard when an international organization seeks to capture or kill super-powered teenagers. As Red Robin, he must team up with the mysterious and belligerent powerhouse thief known as Wonder Girl and a hyperactive speedster calling himself Kid Flash in TEEN TITANS #1, by Scott Lobdell and artists Brett Booth and Norm Rapmund.

The bolded parts worry me. It sounds like Tim may be retconned to never having been Robin, because it sounds like this may be his first actual superhero adventure. Considering there wasn't a single mention yesterday of Tim when all the Bat-books were announced, it very well may be that Tim is no longer associated with Batman. There is a new Nightwing book, but apparently not a new Robin/Red Robin book... If this is true, and they are drastically changing Tim this much, then this pisses me off even more than Barbara coming back as Batgirl.

Also Cassie as a thief? WTF

stingermck
06-08-11, 09:54 AM
Ok, todays batch is terrible. Unfortunate for Teen Titans, which recently got back on track.

Heh. Liefeld. Well at least he got his start on Hawk & Dove.

madcougar
06-08-11, 10:18 AM
I also paid closer attention to the Teen Titans description.

Tim Drake is forced to step out from behind his keyboard when an international organization seeks to capture or kill super-powered teenagers. As Red Robin, he must team up with the mysterious and belligerent powerhouse thief known as Wonder Girl and a hyperactive speedster calling himself Kid Flash in TEEN TITANS #1, by Scott Lobdell and artists Brett Booth and Norm Rapmund.

Also Cassie as a thief? WTF

My first thought when I read this was is this Wonder Girl Stephanie Brown and not Cassie Sandmark? Stephanie Brown has a strong history with Tim Drake and honestly, I can't tell who this is supposed to be as they are both blonds.

Timber
06-08-11, 11:17 AM
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/teen_titans_promo.jpg

Looks like Brett Booth doing his best Jim Lee impression. Still though I am a Brett Booth fan so I might have to pick this up along with whatever Lee is drawing. Where is Scott Clark? Seems they're getting the old Wildstorm crew back together.

And these designs look straight out of early 90's X-Men with the only thing missing is a character with a gun.

Navinabob
06-08-11, 12:17 PM
Five more titles announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/08/the-next-generation-of-justice/

Oh my god. The Teen Titans redesigns are just embarrassingly idiotic. Conner has never had a great outfit, but this is by FAR his worst. At least Tim is still Red Robin, but the new outfit is incredibly stupid.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/teen_titans_promo.jpg

So... Supes will run around and fight with that super-kick-me paper stuck on his back? Really? Or maybe Kid-Flash just keeps slapping on a new one every few minutes.

ReallyReallyLame.

brayzie
06-08-11, 12:28 PM
Wow. I thought that everything Batman related would stay intact. Looks like Tim Drake was never part of Batman And Robin.

Was Wonder Girl's lasso always red or is that to coincide with the Geoff John's color emotion spectrum? If Kid Flash and Robin are starting with brand new histories, how are they going to explain Superboy since he was a product of the Death of Superman?

fujishig
06-08-11, 12:39 PM
Okay, with that Teen Titans reveal, I'm changing my stance, I really really hope now that this is an AoA style temporary reboot or that they're just trolling us with fake reveals. Is that Witchblade or Cybernary on the team? That's Wondergirl? That's Superboy? I predict this title reveal is going to cause the most backlash.

four of those five title reveals include some of my favorite characters in all of comics (the Legion, Teen Titans, and Hawk and Dove) and of all of those, I'm just cautiously optimistic about the Legion titles and depressed about the rest. At least they didn't seem to reboot the Legion yet again, after all that hoopla to bring it back.

Is that a trio of incredibly small bumble bees, or is that some weird perspective, or is that an action sequence where one character is growing or something with two after-images?

edited to add: I finally went through the rest of the new title announcements. Voodoo from WildC.A.T.S. is one of the 52 series? Batwing? Winnick writing multiple titles? And a lot of what seems to me to be artists becoming first-time writers on books. A lot of these series seem to be premises that would have gotten canceled within 6 months if launched before, lets see if this line-wide thing helps them. And I'll admit, I'm intrigued by Simone still writing Babs.

Also, I guess those are after-image effects of Kid Flash (though it's weird that there are none next to him since he's running around Conner) and that most think that the little Superman paper pasted on Superboy's back is from Kid Flash. I don't get that at all from the art, but it does make that a little less dumb of a costume design.

kgrogers1979
06-08-11, 12:40 PM
I thought that everything Batman related would stay intact.

That was dashed to pieces the minute they announced Babs returning as Batgirl.

Stephanie's stint as Batgirl was only slightly longer than her stint as Robin. Now with Tim apparently no longer in the Batverse, I wonder if Stephanie will just disappear into oblivion.

madcougar
06-08-11, 02:16 PM
Stephanie's stint as Batgirl was only slightly longer than her stint as Robin. Now with Tim apparently no longer in the Batverse, I wonder if Stephanie will just disappear into oblivion.

Ok, I get that Tim Drake is not in an official Batman title in the relaunch. I'm not understanding how everyone seems to KNOW that he is no longer part of the Batman mythos? People seem to be reading A LOT into that description of the new title. The guy is dressed like a ROBIN for goodness sake! With wings to boot!

I'll reserve judgement on what is staying and what is going until I get confirmation.

Travis McClain
06-08-11, 02:49 PM
(sigh) You know, just because you can doesn't mean you should, DC...

Patman
06-08-11, 04:33 PM
I'm just going to focus in on creative teams on this new revamp of DCNu. If it sounding sort of interesting, I'll give it a shot, but I suspect my weekly comic title purchases will be dwindling as well. I am only following the main Flashpoint mini-series, and am not picking up the buttloads of Flashpoint tie-in mini's, so thanks to DC, my comic buying is on the down trend. I don't buy any Marvel title that's $3.99, so I'm pretty much done with Marvel, unless I buy them in the dollar bins later on. Might be doing the same with these new DC titles come next winter/spring.

fujishig
06-08-11, 06:45 PM
So they got Liefeld back on Hawk and Dove because that's where he got his start (or blew up). A reminder of how awesome he was during the mini-series:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/02/02/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-36/

JasonF
06-08-11, 08:44 PM
So they got Liefeld back on Hawk and Dove because that's where he got his start (or blew up). A reminder of how awesome he was during the mini-series:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/02/02/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-36/

That's more of a reminder of how awesome Karl Kesel's inks are -- all reports are that he took an extremely heavy hand to Liefeld's pencils.

Super X
06-08-11, 08:58 PM
Thankfully, for as bad as Teen Titans and Hawk and Dove sound, at least it looks like the Legion is escaping the relaunch relatively unscathed, though I'm wary of the Legion Lost spin-off being written by Fabien Nicieza.

Josh-da-man
06-08-11, 09:21 PM
Five more titles announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/08/the-next-generation-of-justice/

Oh my god. The Teen Titans redesigns are just embarrassingly idiotic. Conner has never had a great outfit, but this is by FAR his worst. At least Tim is still Red Robin, but the new outfit is incredibly stupid.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/teen_titans_promo.jpg

So twenty-first century DC Comics is going to look like 1993 Image? Take away the Superman logo and it looks like a generic Homage Studio title.

Travis McClain
06-08-11, 09:27 PM
So twenty-first century DC Comics is going to look like 1993 Image? Take away the Superman logo and it looks like a generic Homage Studio title.

Brilliant! Appeal to my generation of reader's nostalgia for the very stupidity that made us lose our interest in the medium! I only hope these 52 #1s each have 52 variant covers.

Timber
06-08-11, 09:52 PM
I also find it hilarious that they're basing a good portion of this relaunch on artists who are known not to be able to make deadlines. Fill in artists by issue 4 and a completely new artist by issue 9 is my guess.

Travis McClain
06-08-11, 09:58 PM
I also find it hilarious that they're basing a good portion of this relaunch on artists who are known not to be able to make deadlines. Fill in artists by issue 4 and a completely new artist by issue 9 is my guess.

Maybe what happened is they started a year's worth of issues back in the 90s and it's taken them this long to get them ready for publication.

Timber
06-08-11, 10:05 PM
Guess they couldn't drag Joe Madureira away from the Playstation long enough to do 4 issues a year.

antspawn
06-08-11, 11:46 PM
Five more titles announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/08/the-next-generation-of-justice/

Oh my god. The Teen Titans redesigns are just embarrassingly idiotic. Conner has never had a great outfit, but this is by FAR his worst. At least Tim is still Red Robin, but the new outfit is incredibly stupid.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/teen_titans_promo.jpg

That gives me flashbacks when Image comics started out and groups like Wildcats, Cyberforce, Gen13 were born.

PhantomStranger
06-09-11, 01:40 AM
That gives me flashbacks when Image comics started out and groups like Wildcats, Cyberforce, Gen13 were born.
Take away that Superman symbol and I would bet money that cover was from an old Image comic.

kgrogers1979
06-09-11, 03:15 AM
Another pic and more info on Teen Titans

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/05/dc-relaunch-details-on-teen-titans-1/

As of Teen Titans #1, none of the Titans therein will have ever met before.

Oh and, tapping into that mention about DC being a more diverse range of characters, three of the seven members will be ethnic minorities….

So the long-standing relationships between Tim, Conner, Bart, and Cassie are going to be completely wiped away. :brickwl2:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmhs8l03oj1qael6bo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307659171&Signature=KKkbO1SDaNFrNfQE7SxuFL4VqKU%3D

stingermck
06-09-11, 06:52 AM
At least thats better artwork...

stingermck
06-09-11, 07:49 AM
Marvel just announced Uncanny X-Men is ending with #544. So theres another long running title gone.

MBoyd
06-09-11, 09:47 AM
They will always be the uncanny x-men in my mind.

Timber
06-09-11, 10:05 AM
Marvel just announced Uncanny X-Men is ending with #544. So theres another long running title gone.
Now this is one that hits home for me. The largest run I have on any comic is Uncanny but seeing as I have collected since before the Austen run I won't complain too much.

fujishig
06-09-11, 12:03 PM
That's more of a reminder of how awesome Karl Kesel's inks are -- all reports are that he took an extremely heavy hand to Liefeld's pencils.

Read the article, it's about how Liefeld drew most of the last issue sideways (without telling anyone until the pages were done), and the editor had to cut them up to place them right-side up and Kesel had to lightbox them back onto pages. Basically, Liefeld had seen that the last time that "Chaos realm" was used, it was drawn sideways, so he just decided to do it without consulting the writer, editors, or anyone else. Years later, of course, he would have his sideways comic with that Spiderman/X-Force issue.

And it looks like they did take away that Superman symbol to make it more like an old-school Image comic!

The rumor is that Lee, at least, has been working on JLA for a while so there should be no delays/fill-ins in the first year. We'll see. What I find odd is that, following the Image model, they are giving a lot of artists first-time writing gigs. I wonder how many of these 52 they are really expecting to last. Even if that Voodoo book turns out to be incredible, who's buying that?

edited to add: Booth posted some answers about the Titans book:

http://www.titanstower.com/monitor/?p=3155

That's Bart and Cassie. Apparently the black mess is "Charcoal Girl" not sure if he's serious about that name. The little characters are after-image effects and the taped up paper on Conner's back is a Kid Flash joke, he put some "wildstorm" into that spider girl character, and he pretty much admits that this is like a throwback to the 90's, saying that the current pre-reboot stuff is like an '80s throwback, so keep an open mind. While there are good things about the 90's, I wouldn't count classic Image design sense and storytelling as one of them.

stingermck
06-09-11, 12:18 PM
Good article with Snyder about how Batman is not a relaunch, and everything will be explained in story:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-scott-snyder-batman-relaunch-110609.html

fujishig
06-09-11, 12:25 PM
Martian Manhunter in Stormwatch with members of the Authority (but with Cornell writing)... and a Grifter title announced. I'll give them this, they certainly are going for a diverse lineup, since they have a western book, Sgt. Rock, and Blackhawks, and a Kirby throw-back in OMAC.

madcougar
06-09-11, 12:40 PM
Good article with Snyder about how Batman is not a relaunch, and everything will be explained in story:

This interview makes it sound much more like a relaunch than a reboot.

I wonder how many of these 52 they are really expecting to last. Even if that Voodoo book turns out to be incredible, who's buying that?

I for one continue thinking that with next year's company wide crossover, THIS entire... universe? will go kaput and most of the old titles will return from whence they came. Even if a handful of these other titles make it, then that's a bonus for DC as characters like Voodoo and Grifter were just sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere collecting dust.

kgrogers1979
06-09-11, 12:57 PM
Pics of Superman, Supergirl, and (a different?) Superboy have been leaked.

Is it me or does Superman appear to be wearing armor? Why does he even need armor? Superboy also looks very different from the one from the Teen Titans pics. Cyborg-Superboy? Superboy-Prime?

http://i.imgur.com/XDOpH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rE48D.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZFDQM.jpg

fujishig
06-09-11, 01:25 PM
Wait, so if those are 3 different books, that only leaves one book unannounced?

stingermck
06-09-11, 01:36 PM
Cyborg Superboy looks cool, but these other redesigns are just too damn 90's

kgrogers1979
06-09-11, 01:41 PM
Wait, so if those are 3 different books, that only leaves one book unannounced?

As of today, 46 have been announced. 47-52 are still coming, so there are six titles left. Superman and Action will definitely be two of them. Supergirl and Superboy are apparently two others. That leaves two more. The JSA is absent so far, so that could be one. Also nothing has been said about Wally West.

It really sucks that Conner is getting his own solo book but Tim is not. Tim has had his own solo book since Knightfall when Jean-Paul kicked him out. To not have his own book now is a disgrace. Heck, its even worse that Jason Todd is getting his own book, but Tim isn't.

fujishig
06-09-11, 02:01 PM
Wait, that Superboy isn't the same as in Teen Titans, right? Was it Didio that said that all past Robins would get a book, and Tim's book was Teen Titans? Well, except for Stephanie, apparently.

I can't see Wally getting a second Flash book, seeing as how Johns pushed him to the side (and I don't remember seeing him again outside of that lame intervention they had) to make room for Barry in the first place. Also I don't think I've seen James Robinson in any of these solicits... granted, I didn't like his Justice League book, but I'm still surprised, since all the rumors were that he was going to get Hawkman. He would seem to fit in for a JSA book, but we'll see.

The current Superboy book is actually really good (I know the current Red Robin book is also really good), though that's all thrown out the window now. I'd be more ticked that Grifter, Voodoo, Batwing, Resurrection Man, and a Liefeld Hawk and Dove got a book before Tim did... :)

madcougar
06-09-11, 03:44 PM
Cyborg Superboy looks cool, but these other redesigns are just too damn 90's

-rolleyes- Yep because George Perez is TOTALLY a 90s style artist...

Almost done with the announcements and no book for Dustin Nguyen yet... weird.

madcougar
06-09-11, 03:48 PM
Is it me or does Superman appear to be wearing armor? Why does he even need armor?

I'll be damned. You're right - that looks like armor. Plus his traditional red outer-wear are gone!

MBoyd
06-09-11, 04:15 PM
Yah, look for an armor costume in the new movie. Thanks Snyder!

brayzie
06-09-11, 04:29 PM
-rolleyes- Yep because George Perez is TOTALLY a 90s style artist...



Jim Lee designed the costumes.

I kind of like Image costumes from the 90s, some of them. Every era had something good about it. But these loos like the excessive, extreme, superfluous designs that ended up being generic, and soon-to-be parodied. Superman and Supergirl look almost like action figures.

The more and more I hear about this relaunch the less interested I am in actually even flipping through these books.

movieguru
06-09-11, 06:17 PM
Why are Supermans eye's alway glowing red when jim Lee draws him?

Timber
06-09-11, 06:21 PM
Why are Supermans eye's alway glowing red when jim Lee draws him?

That's George Perez.

brayzie
06-09-11, 06:38 PM
It looks cool and he has heat vision, so I guess when he gets angry his eyes turn red, ready to burn someone.

fujishig
06-09-11, 07:16 PM
The glowing red eyes, the tech boots, and the fact Perez drew it reminds me of Superboy Prime, which is not a good thing. Which one is Morrison writing, the Superman title or Action?

kgrogers1979
06-09-11, 09:59 PM
Suicide Squad #1

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/09/suicide-squad-1/

Harley Quinn! Deadshot! King Shark! They’re a team of death-row super villains recruited by the government to take on missions so dangerous – they’re sheer suicide! Who will be the first to crack under the pressure? Find out in SUICIDE SQUAD #1, written by Adam Glass (FLASHPOINT: LEGION OF DOOM) with art by Marco Rudy (THE SHIELD).

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/suicidesquad_cover_2498710928570987987asdfhjakjhskaf.jpg


Blue Beetle #1

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/09/blue-beetle-1/

It’s not easy being Jaime Reyes. He has to deal with high school, family and all the drama that comes with being a teenager. Also, he’s linked to a powerful scarab created by an alien race who seek to subjugate planets – or annihilate them. It’s up to one teen hero to turn this instrument of destruction into a force for good in BLUE BEETLE #1, written by Tony Bedard (GREEN LANTERN CORPS) and illustrated by Ig Guara (FLASHPOINT: GRODD OF WAR) and Ruy Jose.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/blue_cv134908afdslk47-l.jpg


So that is 48 of the 52. The final four will most likely be Superman, Action, Supergirl, and Superboy.

I really don't like Harley's new costume. I don't know why they didn't use her costume from Arkham City. That one is great and not as slutty.

Deadshot looks like he is wearing Isaac's armor from Dead Space. :lol:

Timber
06-09-11, 10:06 PM
Who did the cover for Suicide Squad? It looks really good.

notvandnobeer
06-09-11, 10:16 PM
Who did the cover for Suicide Squad? It looks really good.

Ryan Benjamin

brayzie
06-09-11, 10:49 PM
THAT'S supposed to be Harley Quinn?

fujishig
06-09-11, 11:02 PM
THAT'S supposed to be Harley Quinn?

I'm curious to hear Bruce Timm's take on this.

brayzie
06-09-11, 11:05 PM
These designs are really bad. I guess it might be cool for what they hope will be the next generation but I dunno.

The BEST update in costume was Batman & Robin via Frank Quitely. That guy has some great looking designs, modern, simplistic, and still iconic looking.

I guess it's cheaper to have Jim Lee come up with all new designs since their already paying him a fat salary.

fujishig
06-09-11, 11:22 PM
Looking over the new designs again... does it seem odd to anyone else that they really emphasized taking the underwear look off of Superman, but they have no problem putting it on Supergirl?

Travis McClain
06-09-11, 11:31 PM
Looking over the new designs again... does it seem odd to anyone else that they really emphasized taking the underwear look off of Superman, but they have no problem putting it on Supergirl?

Any chance to show off a superheroine's hips and thighs is generally going to pass mustard...particularly during a massive push to lure in new readers.

In my history studies I once heard a teacher quip that the reason the French performed so poorly in warfare in World War I was that they prepared by getting ready for the Franco-Prussian War, and then prepared for World War II by getting ready for World War I. Every cover that has been shown makes me think DC is trying to get ready for 1993.

PhantomStranger
06-10-11, 01:47 AM
That new Superman costume looks exactly like what I expect if Warner Bros. felt the need to "modernize" his costume for a movie. Hollywood loves its superheroes in armor, even if it does not make a lick of sense. Let us pray that is not what the new Zach Snyder Superman looks like...

stingermck
06-10-11, 08:34 AM
Great article with Gail talking about the Batgirl controversy:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gail-simone-dicusses-batgirl-and-oracle-110609.html

movieguru
06-10-11, 09:19 AM
Didn't really notice the missing underwear at first. It does make sense for it to be more made from metal then cloth though. The old excuse that Ma Kent unraveled a blanket from Krypton thread by thread and resewn a costume out of it. Althouh still how can he hide the boots underneath hius regular dress shoes as Clark Kent?

madcougar
06-10-11, 09:40 AM
THAT'S supposed to be Harley Quinn?

As much as I love the traditional HQ... I'm not hating it.

Timber
06-10-11, 10:01 AM
Ryan Benjamin

Another WildStorm vet.

Travis McClain
06-10-11, 10:58 AM
Great article with Gail talking about the Batgirl controversy:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gail-simone-dicusses-batgirl-and-oracle-110609.html

Thanks for that link. Simone seems to be walking the line between defender of Barbara Gordon and reluctant company woman, but I figure if anyone is going to fight hard for that character, it's her.

I just wish someone had been willing to do a Batgirl series set in the past but published concurrently with Birds of Prey. I mean, didn't Batman Beyond prove that audiences and readers were, in fact, capable of keeping up with one character at parallel times in his or her life? And that show had a much larger audience than comics have readers...and cartoon viewers aren't generally nearly as well versed in juggling multiple continuities. It just seems to me they could have eaten their Batgirl cake and had it, too.

Didn't really notice the missing underwear at first. It does make sense for it to be more made from metal then cloth though. The old excuse that Ma Kent unraveled a blanket from Krypton thread by thread and resewn a costume out of it. Althouh still how can he hide the boots underneath hius regular dress shoes as Clark Kent?

Yeah, a metal suit with boots under his Clark Kent suit makes a whole lot more sense than Ma Kent sewing.

As much as I love the traditional HQ... I'm not hating it.

It looks like a McFarlane Toys concept design to me. Might be nice eye candy once, but I suspect it will become mundane very quickly for regular readers. Maybe not, though.

al_bundy
06-10-11, 11:49 AM
this is 2011, how come all the chick super heroes aren't wearing thongs?

kgrogers1979
06-10-11, 12:00 PM
This is what they should have used for Harley. It is ten times better.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/562/harleyl.jpg

Regarding Barbara, I don't mind if she walks again. What I do mind is her regressing to the Batgirl role. Like it was said in the interview, in a magical world like the DCU it only makes sense for Barbara to walk again. Bruce wasn't even paralyzed a year (DCU-time) after Bane broke his back before he was up and walking again. However, going back to the Batgirl role is going backward. Its basically a job demotion. If she walks again and remains Oracle, I would have no problem at all with it. However, regressing back to Batgirl is a problem.

Regarding Ma Kent sewing Clark's costume, wasn't that just an old Silver Age thing? I think in the post-Byrne reboot the only thing Ma used from the rocket was the S-shield. Everything else was Earth-made I believe. His costume has been shredded to pieces several times over the years, so it isn't like he is still using his first costume anyway.

Navinabob
06-10-11, 12:20 PM
That Harley looks way too much like Typhoid Mary.

fujishig
06-10-11, 12:40 PM
That Harley looks way too much like Typhoid Mary.

THAT's who that drawing reminded me of, that was driving me crazy. I know Suicide Squad did it first, but it also feels like Thunderbolts (though that may just be Deadshot's new armor giving me a Penance vibe).

Those knee-holes in that Supergirl costume are terrible, btw, and I'm sure will be difficult to draw correctly.

Travis McClain
06-10-11, 12:46 PM
Regarding Barbara, I don't mind if she walks again. What I do mind is her regressing to the Batgirl role. Like it was said in the interview, in a magical world like the DCU it only makes sense for Barbara to walk again. Bruce wasn't even paralyzed a year (DCU-time) after Bane broke his back before he was up and walking again. However, going back to the Batgirl role is going backward. Its basically a job demotion. If she walks again and remains Oracle, I would have no problem at all with it. However, regressing back to Batgirl is a problem.

I can appreciate your perspective on this, but I think it's a tad premature to condemn this as a "demotion." I'm conflicted. I think that Barbara Gordon has been a very unique character post-Killing Joke and I'd hate to see her essentially become just another heroine in a cape. On the other hand, I adore the character and never got the chance to follow her as Batgirl in new stories until Batman: The Animated Series, so I'm kind of excited about seeing her in action in new stories.

There is one remark that Gail Simone makes in the interview shared earlier in this thread I think is worth addressing:

I've always said my whole career that I wanted to write by the improv credo, "don't negate," which means, even if you didn't care for something, you try to make it work, you don't say, "Oh, that particular story didn't happen."

There comes a point where even if a writer doesn't disavow or retcon a predecessor's work, the sheer bulk of various writers making things work becomes unwieldy. The greatest check against that is to quit emphasizing major event stories. For decades, Batman and Superman sold comic books without characters dying (except within stories where they were resurrected by the issue's end, so those don't really count). The Legion of Super-Heroes could travel through time without it causing every DC title to react in some way.

Publishers are quick to say, "Well, the sales are great so that means the fans are largely happy with what we're doing now." Those early shake-up sales are always higher, because we as fans and readers are naturally curious. Five months later when fans don't feel like this is going anywhere and quit buying, though, it's time for a creative change as someone new is brought in and now has to find a way out of someone else's mess. I don't blame a writer for inheriting a mess, but I do blame a writer--and an editor--for mapping out these kinds of stories that demand long-lasting consequences and then box in subsequent writers.

stingermck
06-10-11, 03:06 PM
I think its easy to forget that Barbara was the 2nd person to wear the cape and cowl. Before Jean Paul, Dick, Cassie, etc. Essentially she was the first person Bruce allowed to wear the bat, so I don't see it as a demotion at all for her to return to that.

Travis McClain
06-10-11, 03:08 PM
I think its easy to forget that Barbara was the 2nd person to wear the cape and cowl. 2nd. Before Jean Paul, Dick, Cassie, etc. Essentially she was the first person Bruce allowed to wear the bat, so I don't see it as a demotion at all for her to return to that.

And even easier to forget Kathy and Betty Kane preceded Babs!

kgrogers1979
06-10-11, 03:21 PM
The final four are announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/10/history-happens-now/

ACTION COMICS #1

A new era of DC Comics begins as the longest-running monthly comic of all time releases its first issue #1 since 1938.

This September, New York Times bestselling writer Grant Morrison (ALL-STAR SUPERMAN) joins with sensational artist Rags Morales to bring you tales of The Man of Tomorrow unlike any you’ve ever read before in ACTION COMICS #1. This momentous first issue will set in motion the history of the DC Universe as Superman defends a world that doesn’t trust their first Super Hero.

The first Action Comics #1 is now the most sought-after comic book of all time. This September, one of comics’ most imaginative storytellers will make history again in Grant Morrison and Rags Morales’ ACTION COMICS #1.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/action_1jhasnasdnms.jpg

Superman #1

What is Superman’s startling new status quo? How does it affect his friends, loved ones and his job at The Daily Planet? Find out in SUPERMAN #1, written by legendary comics creator George Perez (CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, NEW TEEN TITANS and WONDER WOMAN) and illustrated by Jesus Merino.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/sm_cv1m3kl4maps0d.jpg

Supergirl #1

Supergirl’s got the unpredictable behavior of a teenager, the same powers as Superman and none of his affection for the people of Earth. Writers Michael Green and Mike Johnson (Smallville, SUPERMAN/BATMAN) will team up with artist Mahmud Asrar to give a new take on the teenager from Krypton in SUPERGIRL #1.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/sg_cv1oo-o2ma.jpg

Superboy #1

They thought he was just a failed experiment, grown from a combination of Kryptonian and human DNA. But when the scope of his stunning powers was revealed, he became a deadly weapon. SUPERBOY #1 will be written by Scott Lobdell with art by R.B. Silva and Rob Lean.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/sb_cv1i3428rnmws.jpg


It sounds like Action may be a new origin or at least set very early in Superman's career since it says the people don't trust him.

Supergirl sounds like she may turn into a villain.

Superboy sounds like maybe he isn't cloned during the Death of Superman but rather just some random experiment gone bad.

At least no mention of Superman: One More Day... yet...

stingermck
06-10-11, 03:26 PM
And even easier to forget Kathy and Betty Kane preceded Babs!

Well depends on what continuity were looking at :D

kgrogers1979
06-10-11, 03:29 PM
I think its easy to forget that Barbara was the 2nd person to wear the cape and cowl. Before Jean Paul, Dick, Cassie, etc. Essentially she was the first person Bruce allowed to wear the bat, so I don't see it as a demotion at all for her to return to that.

I think one reason I see it as a demotion is because she is going back to the -girl suffix. She is supposed to be a year or two older than Dick. It would be better in my opinion if she became the new Batwoman, and keep Stephanie as Batgirl.

Navinabob
06-10-11, 03:36 PM
Odd, I love the Supergirl make-over but hate the Superman one. His outfit looks too much like body armor and I think he's wearing a Batman style utility belt. Does he keep his cellphone on it?

antspawn
06-10-11, 03:36 PM
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/suicidesquad_cover_2498710928570987987asdfhjakjhskaf.jpg



Freakin awesome artwork :thumbsup:

kgrogers1979
06-10-11, 03:42 PM
Freakin awesome artwork :thumbsup:

If you are a horny teenager.

Harley's new origin will probably be that she is a prostitute and Joker is her pimp. Notice we haven't seen any pics of Joker yet. He will probably be looking like a pimp daddy.

madcougar
06-10-11, 03:51 PM
If you are a horny teenager.

Harley's new origin will probably be that she is a prostitute and Joker is her pimp. Notice we haven't seen any pics of Joker yet. He will probably be looking like a pimp daddy.

Hahaha! Dude you sound like my brother-in-law! That guy HATES everything before he sees it. I'm not a horny teenager - far from it. Again, I don't LOVE it, but I dont' hate it either.

My one question is what book is Dustin Nguyen drawing? I love that guy and haven't seen his name associated with any title.

Travis McClain
06-10-11, 04:53 PM
Supergirl sounds like she may turn into a villain.

Sounds like someone wants to go back to the Superman/Batman: Apocalypse storyline with a mysterious, potentially dark Supergirl. Whatever.

Superboy sounds like maybe he isn't cloned during the Death of Superman but rather just some random experiment gone bad.

This one actually makes sense to me. Even if they don't retcon the "Death" story out of having happened, it's just cleaner this way. I just hope they don't go off with some kind of elaborate conspiracy plot about how he was created.

I think one reason I see it as a demotion is because she is going back to the -girl suffix. She is supposed to be a year or two older than Dick. It would be better in my opinion if she became the new Batwoman, and keep Stephanie as Batgirl.

I can see this as a perceived slight and that sounds legitimate to me. My only immediate reaction is that we're not real clear on just when we're seeing Barbara in this new incarnation so it may be that she's young enough that the "-girl" suffix will be appropriate. Also, there's no guarantee that she will still be presented as being older than Dick Grayson.

kgrogers1979
06-10-11, 06:57 PM
I can see this as a perceived slight and that sounds legitimate to me. My only immediate reaction is that we're not real clear on just when we're seeing Barbara in this new incarnation so it may be that she's young enough that the "-girl" suffix will be appropriate. Also, there's no guarantee that she will still be presented as being older than Dick Grayson.


There was an interview with Snyder somewhere, but I can't remember where exactly, and he was talking about how there wouldn't be any actual rebooting in the Batman titles. He was talking about it will be revealed directly in the stories how Barbara gets the use of her legs back and why she becomes Batgirl again, and why Dick goes back to Nightwing, and so on.

I think Tim will probably be the only major change in the Bat-verse. He wasn't mentioned at all when all the Bat-titles were announced and the only book he is getting is the Teen Titans book which is a heavy retcon with the teens meeting for the first time.

I think the Flashpoint reboot is really just going to be like Crisis on Infinite Earths where some characters got heavy reboots and others barely changed at all. Superman for example was drastically changed by John Byrne, but other than a new origin for Jason Todd the Batman books didn't really change at all.

Travis McClain
06-10-11, 08:43 PM
There was an interview with Snyder somewhere, but I can't remember where exactly, and he was talking about how there wouldn't be any actual rebooting in the Batman titles. He was talking about it will be revealed directly in the stories how Barbara gets the use of her legs back and why she becomes Batgirl again, and why Dick goes back to Nightwing, and so on.

That seems problematic at best. A "back to her younger days pre-Killing Joke" Barbara Batgirl story I could buy, but to have Babs at this point in her life get back use of her legs and then go from being in a wheelchair all this time to swinging across rooftops as Batgirl? This better be one hell of a story.

I think the Flashpoint reboot is really just going to be like Crisis on Infinite Earths where some characters got heavy reboots and others barely changed at all. Superman for example was drastically changed by John Byrne, but other than a new origin for Jason Todd the Batman books didn't really change at all.

I picked up the Green Lantern issue on Free Comic Book Day and looked at the "Flashpoint" preview and my reaction was, "yawn." It just looked like a "Zero Hour" wannabe or some kind of "Elseworlds" story, and it didn't help that the last image of the comic after the story is a full page ad for "Flashpoint" action figures. It just felt like a story designed to sell toys and bilk the loyalist fanboys who have continued to buy new comics so they can complain about them.

My local comics shop is having a sidewalk sale tomorrow and as long as my guts cooperate I plan on popping in on it. I'm interested to see what kind of talk there is about all this among the faithful. I'm also interested to root around for some Danger Girl back issues, but that's neither here nor there.

Timber
06-10-11, 09:01 PM
Forgot about Zero Hour. The last DC story line to suck me in. To bad they did a terrible job keeping me after wrapping it up.

TheBang
06-10-11, 10:02 PM
Harley's new origin will probably be that she is a prostitute and Joker is her pimp. Notice we haven't seen any pics of Joker yet. He will probably be looking like a pimp daddy.

The Joker's on the cover of Detective Comics #1.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/06/dtc_cv11.jpg

PhantomStranger
06-10-11, 11:26 PM
The final four are announced.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/10/history-happens-now/

ACTION COMICS #1

A new era of DC Comics begins as the longest-running monthly comic of all time releases its first issue #1 since 1938.

This September, New York Times bestselling writer Grant Morrison (ALL-STAR SUPERMAN) joins with sensational artist Rags Morales to bring you tales of The Man of Tomorrow unlike any you’ve ever read before in ACTION COMICS #1. This momentous first issue will set in motion the history of the DC Universe as Superman defends a world that doesn’t trust their first Super Hero.


Superman #1

What is Superman’s startling new status quo? How does it affect his friends, loved ones and his job at The Daily Planet? Find out in SUPERMAN #1, written by legendary comics creator George Perez (CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, NEW TEEN TITANS and WONDER WOMAN) and illustrated by Jesus Merino.

At least no mention of Superman: One More Day... yet...
The more I read about this reboot by DC, the more the changes seem driven to change the comics to precede and bolster the coming movie versions. And of course they use the dumbest angle possible to approach Superman, a world that does not trust him.-rolleyes- Haven't we already seen that in an amazing amount of ripoffs at other companies and what-if scenarios? The new status quo will be he is single and not married yet to Lois. This all seems to eerily mimic the rumors about the upcoming Superman film.

boredsilly
06-11-11, 03:32 AM
Odd, I love the Supergirl make-over but hate the Superman one. His outfit looks too much like body armor and I think he's wearing a Batman style utility belt. Does he keep his cellphone on it?

I'm right there with you. I do like how Superman looks on the Cover of Action #1, but that George Perez image looks really bad to my eyes.

I wonder how many of these 52 titles, if they're all ongoing, will make it to issue 10, let alone 15? A lot of these books sound interesting, but also sound like they're fresh out of left field. The direct market has shown time and time again that it doesn't support books that feel like they're on the fringe, and a lot of these 52 titles sound like fringe books to me. If the digital aspect of this relaunch doesn't support them, I don't see long runs on many of these books -- again, if they're ongoing.

kgrogers1979
06-11-11, 04:27 AM
The Joker's on the cover of Detective Comics #1.

That's just a head shot. It doesn't show if he is still wearing his classic costume or a new pimp daddy costume.


This momentous first issue will set in motion the history of the DC Universe as Superman defends a world that doesn’t trust their first Super Hero.

I didn't think of this before, but the solicit says Superman is the first superhero and there has been no mention of the JSA. Does that mean the JSA is being retconned yet again?

PhantomStranger
06-11-11, 12:13 PM
I wonder how many of these 52 titles, if they're all ongoing, will make it to issue 10, let alone 15? A lot of these books sound interesting, but also sound like they're fresh out of left field. The direct market has shown time and time again that it doesn't support books that feel like they're on the fringe, and a lot of these 52 titles sound like fringe books to me. If the digital aspect of this relaunch doesn't support them, I don't see long runs on many of these books -- again, if they're ongoing.
The number of new titles would indicate to me that many of these books are intended as experiments, to see if digital sales alone are viable enough to support a monthly book. There is no way that DC thinks the Direct Market will support all of them. Something is going on here behind the scenes, giving this many writing jobs to artists. I wonder if the writers/artists are getting a direct cut of digital sales instead of a fixed base salary?

I didn't think of this before, but the solicit says Superman is the first superhero and there has been no mention of the JSA. Does that mean the JSA is being retconned yet again?
The classic JSA has been eliminated, or moved to an alternate Earth. At least that is the most common speculation.

Travis McClain
06-11-11, 12:13 PM
Forgot about Zero Hour. The last DC story line to suck me in. To bad they did a terrible job keeping me after wrapping it up.

Probably even worse for DC that I used "Zero Hour" as the time to quit buying. I bought and read my Batman and Superman monthlies up to their #0s and then I bailed. I kept up with Green Lantern for a few years after that, but otherwise it wasn't the vow renewal event for me that they had intended. I can't help but wonder how many readers who have stuck out the last several years with DC feel that way now.

The more I read about this reboot by DC, the more the changes seem driven to change the comics to precede and bolster the coming movie versions. And of course they use the dumbest angle possible to approach Superman, a world that does not trust him.-rolleyes- Haven't we already seen that in an amazing amount of ripoffs at other companies and what-if scenarios? The new status quo will be he is single and not married yet to Lois. This all seems to eerily mimic the rumors about the upcoming Superman film.

You know, one thing this reminds me of is the fact that the semi-controversial Action Comics #900 story in which Superman renounces his U.S. citizenship was written by David S. Goyer, who of course is writing (or has written) the next Superman movie. I took that to be an early indication of what they had in mind for the film, but of course that's just speculation on my part. One does kind of imagine Alec Baldwin sitting in on the relaunch meetings preaching "synergy" betwixt comics, films & TV and other merchandise. (At least, one does if one is a 30 Rock viewer.)

PhantomStranger
06-11-11, 12:16 PM
You know, one thing this reminds me of is the fact that the semi-controversial Action Comics #900 story in which Superman renounces his U.S. citizenship was written by David S. Goyer, who of course is writing (or has written) the next Superman movie.
That does seem to add fuel to the fire about the relaunch's true motives.

Travis McClain
06-11-11, 12:54 PM
That does seem to add fuel to the fire about the relaunch's true motives.

It's hard to know right now. After all, if Action Comics #1 reboots Superman to the point of negating #900 then it would seem Relaunch Superman is going in a different direction from Movie Superman. I don't claim to know what any of this means right now. I just thought in the context of the discussion of what, if any, relationship is intended between the relaunch comics and the movies it was worth mentioning #900 and Goyer.

brayzie
06-11-11, 02:56 PM
Probably even worse for DC that I used "Zero Hour" as the time to quit buying. I bought and read my Batman and Superman monthlies up to their #0s and then I bailed.

I think stuff like that can either be a good intro for new readers but also a gimmick that turns off people. I bought Flash #0 becuase it was a possible collectable but also featured his origin story and brought me up to speed with the character (npi).

The others I bought weren't origin retellings but were previews for the next upcoming storyline.

Reminds me of Sega and there many peripherals. They got everyone to buy into the 32X, and when their real 32 bit system came out, everyone was either out of cash or pissed.

antspawn
06-12-11, 10:25 PM
I'm not feeling the new Superman costume. He looks like a GI Joe action figure.

stingermck
06-13-11, 09:37 AM
Johns and Lee talk it up. And JLA is set in the past?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32755

The Valeyard
06-13-11, 11:30 AM
Johns and Lee talk it up. And JLA is set in the past?

Just the first story arc. Same with Action Comics apparently.

fujishig
06-13-11, 11:33 AM
Sounds like the first arc of JLA is in the past to show how they set up the league and get readers caught up on the changes... JLA as the flagship title probably makes sense, as most comic fans would flock to it with the creative team alone, and it touches so many characters that you can get a good idea of how the nu DC universe works.

Action seems to be set in the past, specifically Superman's past, for now, probably longer than an initial story arc. I have to hand it to them, one way to make sure Supes doesn't have underwear outside his pants is to make him wear jeans over it.

Timber
06-13-11, 12:14 PM
So JLA's first arc will take place in the past along with Action while Superman, Batman and so on while launching at the same time will be present day. Sounds like they're setting fans up for some confusing first few months.

fujishig
06-13-11, 12:21 PM
I wonder if Teen Titans is set in the past as well. That would allay some concerns about the whole "team meeting for the first time" thing.

stingermck
06-13-11, 01:57 PM
JSA is done :(

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/06/dan-didio-dc-comics-has-decided-to-rest-the-justice-society/

brayzie
06-13-11, 02:25 PM
That's why they cancelled JSA back in the 90s. Image was the hot new comic company and DC felt that it hurt their own brand to publish kids comics about senior citizen superheroes. Kinda sad though because those stories were pretty good and nostalgic.

fujishig
06-13-11, 03:18 PM
That's why they cancelled JSA back in the 90s. Image was the hot new comic company and DC felt that it hurt their own brand to publish kids comics about senior citizen superheroes. Kinda sad though because those stories were pretty good and nostalgic.

But after the canceling of that series, we got the excellent re-invisioning by Goyer/Robinson/Johns, with all the new legacy heroes right? This is what kinda confuses me about the whole thing, and makes me think that this was a mandate from higher up... Johns seems to love his legacy heroes. He may have too much affection for the heroes of his youth (Barry and Hal, for example) but he loves intertwining mythologies and drawing on the past; it's what made me a fan of his work in the first place. Now most of that is being thrown out the window to get younger, more diverse heroes.

Also finally read Flashpoint 1, and the fact the Andy Kubert art reminded me of the fact that he drew the lead in and parts of AoA at Marvel. I hadn't collected a comic that he did art in in some time...

PhantomStranger
06-14-11, 12:52 AM
Canceling the JSA strongly implies some sort of corporate mandate from above for the entire DC line to get younger. There is no way Johns, who is a big fan of DC history, would introduce that idea or not stop it if he could. This smacks of demographic re-engineering by a corporate executive who said do this or else to DC.

Boba Fett
06-14-11, 01:37 AM
David Walker nicely tackles an issue with DC that in a roundabout way says volumes as to why I don't care about their pandering comics nor their gimmicky reboot.

http://dariuslogan.com/?p=623#more-623

kgrogers1979
06-14-11, 05:56 AM
David Walker nicely tackles an issue with DC that in a roundabout way says volumes as to why I don't care about their pandering comics nor their gimmicky reboot.

http://dariuslogan.com/?p=623#more-623


The thing that really peeves me about Batwing's obvious attempt at racial diversity is that we already had Cassandra Cain who was half-Asian. Why not just bring her back instead of creating Batwing. But no they have to put Barbara back as Batgirl, which nobody wants, instead of bringing Cassandra back, which is what everyone actually wants.

stingermck
06-14-11, 08:15 AM
I've always wanted Barbara back. I will miss Steph, and Cassie is my least favorite. Just saying.

BTW full solicits are up:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32768

brayzie
06-14-11, 12:22 PM
The thing that really peeves me about Batwing's obvious attempt at racial diversity is that we already had Cassandra Cain who was half-Asian. Why not just bring her back instead of creating Batwing. But no they have to put Barbara back as Batgirl, which nobody wants, instead of bringing Cassandra back, which is what everyone actually wants.

Because Batwing was created by Morrison, a very popular writer, that will be enough to sustain good sales for this new character. I guess the other Batgirls neve caught on.

fujishig
06-14-11, 01:05 PM
I may just be completely ignorant, but Batwing seems like a title that won't last a year, especially with 52 #1s coming out.

The last Batgirl series was doing ok with Steph, overcoming the initial backlash that they ruined Cassandra with the OYL story and replaced her with a white, blond haired girl (though I was always a Spoiler fan anyway). The problem is that Barbara is THE Batgirl from the old Batman TV show and BTAS (and Brave and the Bold too). kgrogers1979's comment about what everybody wants only holds true for what the majority of comic fans want: they generally like Oracle, and while initially there were many, many fans who wanted Batgirl back, they got used to Oracle and her new role. Babs being Batgirl is what non-comic fans expect, I guess. This may also be the reason why Barry Allen came back when nobody was clamoring for him over Wally (besides Johns).

Like I said before, the only possible saving grace for the Batgirl book from a comic fan perspective is that Simone is writing it, and she's a gigantic fan of Barbara and the definitive Oracle writer.

Brian Hibbs' Tilting at Windmills column is up, to give a retailer's perspective:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32716

So what's the buzz at the local comic shop (from owners and other collectors)? Message boards seem split, which makes me think that this might actually work, because I thought for sure everyone would hate, say, Teen Titans. I'm still in Wait-for-the-Trade mode, or perhaps Wait-for-the-99-cents-digital-sale mode, except for Legion (so I guess I'm still a sucker).

sinned
06-14-11, 01:19 PM
Guess they couldn't drag Joe Madureira away from the Playstation long enough to do 4 issues a year.

That's because Marvel had already beaten them to the punch (Avenging Spider-Man).

Navinabob
06-14-11, 02:11 PM
I suspect (half-jokingly) they'll make the character Chole from Smallville fame Oracle as that was basically who they made her into... all they need is a way to get her in a chair.

Preterite
06-14-11, 03:36 PM
Because Batwing was created by Morrison
The link was my first exposure to that character, but I'm pretty sure Morrison is riffing on an old Batman tale where three kids each describe what they think the batman is like.

[googles] Yep!

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/810/21671188.jpg

So JLA's first arc will take place in the past along with Action while Superman, Batman and so on while launching at the same time will be present day. Sounds like they're setting fans up for some confusing first few months.
This is why I think the half-ass reboot after the first Crisis failed. DC wants to reset everything - except the history of their most popular characters. Start with a clean slate or don't bother, says I.

Timber
06-14-11, 04:17 PM
That's because Marvel had already beaten them to the punch (Avenging Spider-Man).

Wow, shows how much I keep up with comics these days.

Timber
06-14-11, 04:23 PM
This is why I think the half-ass reboot after the first Crisis failed. DC wants to reset everything - except the history of their most popular characters. Start with a clean slate or don't bother, says I.

Exactly. It's going to be fragmented.

I'm going to show my age but I think New Universe was the perfect way to start a universe from scratch but they only had to maintain 6 or so books not 52. I simply don't think it can be done on the scale that DC is trying to do it on without having a reason for all 52 (or however many start in today's time) different stories starting at the same time. Trying to rewrite the past like Crisis and Zero Hour are simply to confusing and complex to work for any period of time.

madcougar
06-14-11, 04:52 PM
Timber, I too remember the New Universe. DC tried something like this in the early 90s as I recall with their Impact line and of course Milestone.

As much as people bitch and moan about this (and I'm not saying DC is doing everything right - far from it), but at some point you have to figure that a reboot becomes a necessity. I look at Marvel and wonder at what point is Frank Castle as the Punisher ridiculous. If Castle served in the closing days of Vietnam as an 18 year old, that makes him 55. That's pretty much impossible as he was introduced in the Marvel universe in 1974. Instead of rebooting his history, apparently he's some sort of zombie now. That's not much better than anything DC is doing me thinks.

kgrogers1979
06-14-11, 05:07 PM
Flash Thompson is a Vietnam vet too, and that is even more ridiculous.

Wolf359
06-14-11, 05:36 PM
This actually has me kind of excited. I think I'll give comics a try for the first time in 15 years. Probably try out at least ten of those titles.

Not going to mess with actual books though, digital for me. Anyone recommend a cheap Android tablet that you can read comics on?

Preterite
06-14-11, 05:37 PM
As much as people bitch and moan about this (and I'm not saying DC is doing everything right - far from it), but at some point you have to figure that a reboot becomes a necessity.
I would actually be enthused about a complete reboot, a clean slate like was done in the 1950's. Shuffle all of the current characters and all of the history off to Earth-Z2@ or whatever and start fresh. The Big 3 (or 5) stay pretty much the same but everyone else is remade. Same names, new identities and concepts.

But that's not what the typical comic fan wants. To him, continuity is king. So I believe that DC will try to reboot some aspects of their universe and keep others. We won't get Day 1 Year 1 of a brand new, exciting DCU. We'll get the same kind of convoluted mess that was the post-Crisis era. And we all know how that turned out - almost everything that was wiped away with the "reboots" were eventually brought back as if they had never gone away.

Anyhoo, I think all this hubbub is mostly over nothing. I think we will learn in a year or two that the "reboot" DCU is one of the 52 alternate and the "real" DCU will be brought back - with a few reboot changes that were deemed popular.

Timber
06-14-11, 06:52 PM
But that's not what the typical comic fan wants. To him, continuity is king. So I believe that DC will try to reboot some aspects of their universe and keep others. We won't get Day 1 Year 1 of a brand new, exciting DCU.

That's what I would like to see but I was never a fan of the DCU so I don't have any ties to these characters. Take what works and rewrite it for 2011 and throw out what doesn't but start with a fresh uncluttered universe.

PhantomStranger
06-15-11, 01:14 AM
Anyhoo, I think all this hubbub is mostly over nothing. I think we will learn in a year or two that the "reboot" DCU is one of the 52 alternate and the "real" DCU will be brought back - with a few reboot changes that were deemed popular.
That is the likely outcome. If DC is really committed, maybe the reboot lasts a little longer than a year. But most of the new books and concepts will eventually get tossed or ignored, keeping the select few that succeed. I do think things like Barbara Gordon returning as Batgirl will be more permanent, to bolster synergy with the multimedia platforms. Apparently DC is going to get an aggressive mainstream advertising push, including an entire block of shows on Cartoon Network later in the year.

kgrogers1979
06-15-11, 04:33 AM
I do think things like Barbara Gordon returning as Batgirl will be more permanent, to bolster synergy with the multimedia platforms. Apparently DC is going to get an aggressive mainstream advertising push, including an entire block of shows on Cartoon Network later in the year.


There's no reason they can't use Barbara as Oracle in other media. Barbara is Oracle in the Arkham Asylum video game and nobody complained.

stingermck
06-15-11, 06:55 AM
Babs as Batgirl just goes back to the classic interpretation the public knows.

"Excuse me random person, who is Batgirl?:"

A. The daughter of Commissioner Gordon
B. The daughter of David Cain and Lady Shiva
C. The daughter of the Cluemaster, formerly Spoiler, formerly Robin, formerly dead.

I also agree in the end, this will be a big test to see what works and what doesnt, then roll it all back together in the proper universe.

kgrogers1979
06-15-11, 07:41 AM
The thing that peeves me most about comics is that things rarely ever permanently change. Going back to Babs as Batgirl just to please people who only know that version of Batgirl is absolutely absurd. With a little wiki reading, anyone can get caught up easily on Batgirl's history. It is FAR easier to catch up on past history now in the internet era than it was in previous decades before the internet.

Batman: The Animated Series in the 90s started with Dick as Robin, but eventually he graduated to Nightwing, and Tim became Robin. If the general public can handle that happening in B:TAS, then they can handle Babs graduating to Oracle and someone else taking the Batgirl mantle.

Heck, the general public loved Under the Red Hood, when they had never even heard of Jason Todd before that movie. If the public can love Under the Red Hood with no previous knowledge of Jason, then there is no reason that they won't also love Cassandra or Stephanie.

Travis McClain
06-15-11, 07:44 AM
What I find most curious about the "Barbara Gordon is the public's Batgirl" argument is that after years of John Stewart being "the public's" Green Lantern on Justice League, they went with Hal Jordan for this year's Green Lantern movie. I suspect Batgirl (regardless of alter ego) is more familiar to many than GL (regardless of alter ego). The move to Hal could be taken as particularly bothersome, because it suggests 1) John was chosen exclusively to be a token gesture of racial diversity on the TV show and 2) Hollywood still doesn't believe it can sell a movie without a white guy in the lead.

Now, I say all this as a Hal Jordan fan (though, personally, I dig Kyle Rayner a shade more). But I couldn't help thinking about all this ever since I first heard about production of this movie, only at the time I was laughing about how insecure DC/Warner have been about whether or not "the public" knows who the hell Nightwing is. Personally, I think they need to be more responsible about these kinds of identity issues in the first place, but when they do make these kinds of changes they need to have the conviction to stand by them. Someone at DC needs to be willing to say, "This is what we've done and this needs to be reflected on screen."

I grant, you, of course, that there's more flexibility with Green Lantern, as we've had several over the years and I honestly do think that Hal was the right choice for the movie. Once Ryan Reynolds prices himself out of the franchise (which, as a longtime GL fan, I hope this becomes), I'd like to see John Stewart on the big screen, though.

One other remark: I read one of the recent interviews someone posted and it really came across that DC's editorial leadership is really proud of this massive undertaking, primarily because it's massive. It affects lots of things and it involves the publication of a ton of comic books. This obsession with large-scale stories, in my personal view honed over a life of reading comics, is precisely the very problem with comic book storytelling and until someone takes the reins who doesn't subscribe to the "bigger is better" doctrine, and until publishers re-embrace the mass market, they can continue to watch their sales figures decline. This may provide a brief bump, but outside of dedicated fans who already flock to the Internet and their LCS's (or order their comics online), who the hell even knows about all this?

boredsilly
06-15-11, 07:54 AM
This actually has me kind of excited. I think I'll give comics a try for the first time in 15 years. Probably try out at least ten of those titles.

Not going to mess with actual books though, digital for me. Anyone recommend a cheap Android tablet that you can read comics on?

And for all of the grumpiness you see on online forums, you're the reason why DC is doing this. The potential audience of comics readers (be they totally new readers or lapsed comic fans) is worth risking losing the current audience they do have. Flashpoint 1 only sold 90k issues. That is DC's big event book, and for them to only be able to sell 90k shows that they needed to do something drastic, because as things stand now, there won't be a comics industry in 10 years if they just keep on the current path.

One thing I think hurts the potential of digital sales is that the tablet is taking off, but it isn't quite ubiquitous yet -- like mp3 players or cell phones are. It's certainly going to get there, and soon, but it's not there yet. I know you can read comics on the iphone and ipod, but that doesn't do the material any favors -- comics are made for tablets. When there are viable tablet options for $200, then shit will get real. $100? Then we start to take that leap towards becoming a true paperless society.

boredsilly
06-15-11, 07:58 AM
What I find most curious about the "Barbara Gordon is the public's Batgirl" argument is that after years of John Stewart being "the public's" Green Lantern on Justice League, they went with Hal Jordan for this year's Green Lantern movie.


I think studio's place too much importance on what the public knows, because Iron Man pretty much debunked that whole line of thinking, since very few people probably knew he existed before the movie came out.

Travis McClain
06-15-11, 08:03 AM
I think studio's place too much importance on what the public knows, because Iron Man pretty much debunked that whole line of thinking, since very few people probably knew he existed before the movie came out.

Marvel is far more confident and forward-thinking when it comes to movies. For God's sake, Daredevil got a movie before Green Lantern! Marvel's philosophy seems to be, "We've made a business out of these characters and their stories and we believe they'll all be a hit as movies." DC's philosophy seems to be, "Movies? Um, yeah, let me look around and see what we've got that might work..." It's pathetic, and what was once a healthy rivalry is now a lopsided joke. Take away Bruce Timm and Batman and I don't think anyone gives a damn about DC outside of longtime readers, and this apparently extends to DC itself!