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View Full Version : Should Ted Haggard Get a Second Chance?


jeffbase34
12-03-09, 11:33 AM
Found this article today:



Several people who attended Ted Haggard’s first prayer meeting Thursday night said Friday they plan to return next week, a sign that the former head of New Life Church might be able to build a following after his downfall in the aftermath of a 2006 sex scandal.

Lisa Vanbebber, who was one of the 150 people to attend the Thursday gathering, noted how much more humble Haggard seemed to be than when he led New Life. She plans to go back next Thursday, and expects the weekly gatherings will attract hundreds in the coming months, and thousands over time.

“Ted is a gifted pastor,” Vanbebber said. “I think this will lead to another 14,000-member congregation.”

She also said she knows people who didn’t attend this week’s session because they didn’t want to deal with the media, and she believes they’ll be there next week.

Tom Pesavanto, who was a New Life congregant for 18 years, also plans to return for the second gathering.
“It’s good to see God’s restoring power working in people,” Pesavanto said.

At Thursday’s meeting, Haggard talked about the power of love and told stories about people showing empathy toward him and his family since 2006, when his admission of a sexual liaison with a male escort led him to resign as senior pastor of New Life. Those who attended said he apologized for embarrassing them with the scandal and was deeply contrite.

Haggard, meanwhile, said he feels comfortable with his spiritual and personal life, thanks, in part, to the psychological counseling he’s undergone, but also because of counsel from his “accountability team.” The team is made up of five evangelical pastors in the U.S. that Haggard chose several months ago to help him keep his spiritual balance.

“I can tell the accountability team my mind and heart,” Haggard said Friday. “I will never be an embarrassment to people again.”

http://www.gazette.com/articles/haggard-75717-people-attended.html?referrer=facebook




I find it remarkable that so many people are willing to believe in Ted again. His fall from grace almost defies belief. How could a man get up in front of thousands and rail against gays while he was secretly engaging in such actions? He does it with a smile. I would think a normal human being would just crumble from the inner guilt.

Instead, Ted only confesses when the secret is threaten to be exposed. Ted gives one of the greatest displays of hypocrisy when he talks openly against homosexuality and promotes heterosexuality in the documentary "Friends of God A Road Trip". His interview came mere weeks before the scandal broke.


And this year alone, according to wikipedia:



On January 23, 2009, less than one week before The Trials of Ted Haggard was released on HBO, officials from Haggard's former church announced that a young male church member had come forward in 2006 and that there was an "overwhelming pool of evidence [of an] inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship [that] went on for a long period of time [with Haggard] ... it wasn't a one-time act." Haggard's successor, Brady Boyd, said the church reached a six figure settlement with the man, who was in his early 20s at the time.[41]

According to the man, the contact was "not consensual".[41] Later reports indicated that the relationship did not involve physical contact, but that on one occasion Haggard masturbated in front of the young man, who was 22 years old at the time. [42] The man, Grant Hass, added that New Life Church paid him $179,000 to cover his counseling to help recover from the situation, and pay college tuition.[43]

Haggard openly admitted to the second, albeit nonsexual relationship with Hass on CNN and other media, and when asked if he had had additional gay relationships that have been unreported, Haggard did not provide a direct answer.[44]




I have mixed feelings of Mr. Haggard. Part of me wonders if he is a complete fraud. A true Christian just can't comfortably live in sin yet that is what Ted was doing for years. He only acted repentant when his hand was caught in the cookie jar. I would have a lot more respect and trust for him if he admitted everything before the truth came out.

I personally don't think he has any business trying to start a church every again. Forgiveness is one thing. Trust is another.

Groucho
12-03-09, 11:35 AM
It would be interesting if he started a new pro-gay ministry.

chuckd21
12-03-09, 11:53 AM
It would be interesting if he started a new pro-gay ministry.

If that were the case then yes I'd support giving him a second chance.

LiquidSky
12-03-09, 11:54 AM
I wonder if he will continue with his anti-gay zealot bullshit?

Dr Mabuse
12-03-09, 12:03 PM
He'll be making a fortune with a huge number of fool following him in no time.

Just like Swaggert and Popoff and the rest of them. Hell Steve Martin made a movie about Popoff, and he's back on several TV channels getting richer than he was before for years now.

Artman
12-03-09, 12:11 PM
I didn't expect him to pastor a church again... I could see him helping or ministering within a church in some capacity, but certainly not lead one. But I think the best thing for him is to be a missionary....do some productive type of labor or service in a poor part of the world.

big whoppa
12-03-09, 12:12 PM
When asked in interviews, he avoided being labelled gay. No one knows what the hell he is. I believe in giving people second chances but the man is such a hypocrite. I wouldn't belive a word coming out of that guy's mouth then or now.

kvrdave
12-03-09, 12:19 PM
I don't remember giving him a first chance, but I don't pay much attention to tv evangelists. That whole thing seems weird to me.

chuckd21
12-03-09, 01:34 PM
The thing is, it doesn't matter if he comes back or not. The thousands who follow him will just find another hypocrite to follow.

Bandoman
12-03-09, 01:34 PM
No.

Howiefan
12-03-09, 01:41 PM
I wonder if he will continue with his anti-gay zealot bullshit?

He was on Oprah a while ago and he was saying that he was straight but with gay tendencies, and that those had gone away after seeing a psychologist. He also said he still thought only a relationship between a man and a woman was right.

Living Dead
12-03-09, 01:46 PM
The thing is, it doesn't matter if he comes back or not. The thousands who follow him will just find another hypocrite to follow.

This.

The Edit King
12-03-09, 01:51 PM
Heck, I've been a hypocrite (among other things) in my life and have had the precious privilege of second chances.

maxfisher
12-03-09, 02:09 PM
It takes all of two seconds to find the Bible's guidelines for being a pastor and see that Haggard fails to qualify. It's kind of stupid of people to go to the bother of following a religion, but then disregard its rules for what kind of people can be their spiritual leader.

Dr Mabuse
12-03-09, 02:13 PM
It takes all of two seconds to find the Bible's guidelines for being a pastor and see that Haggard fails to qualify. It's kind of stupid of people to go to the bother of following a religion, but then disregard its rules for what kind of people can be their spiritual leader.

You must have the mistaken notion that 'Christians' actually 'waste their valuable time' even reading the bible.

9x% of them never have or will.

The Edit King
12-03-09, 02:16 PM
You must have the mistaken notion that 'Christians' actually 'waste their valuable time' even reading the bible.

9x% of them never have or will.:lol:

Truer words were never spoken!

(Well, except for those in the Bible, that is.)

Rypro 525
12-03-09, 02:59 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UNQStKaDe-U&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UNQStKaDe-U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
about 2:00 in, and its nsfw

Nick Danger
12-03-09, 04:40 PM
This is America. Everyone deserves a second chance.

I expect that the events of the last couple of years will be fodder for his sermons for a long time. "I, too, am a sinner. Satan led me astray. I got involved with rent boys and street drugs. I lied to my congregation about my sex life. I fell low, so low. But never so low that Jesus wouldn't forgive me. Jesus redeemed me! Jesus raised me up! Jesus made me rich again! Praise the Lord! And Jesus can help you too! To make a donation, please call the number at the bottom of your screen."

But it would be nice if he really has taken a good look at himself, and tried to become a better man.

Venusian
12-03-09, 04:43 PM
I don't remember giving him a first chance, but I don't pay much attention to tv evangelists. That whole thing seems weird to me.

Is he really a tv evangelist?

I don't know much about him but from what i've read he pastored a mega church

Dr Mabuse
12-03-09, 05:02 PM
I don't think he's a televangelist, just a mega church guy. Like most they probably had a local broadcast on CO.

I used two guys as an example that may have lead kvr to think he was another tele guy. Not sure about that.

Superboy
12-03-09, 05:14 PM
You must have the mistaken notion that 'Christians' actually 'waste their valuable time' even reading the bible.

9x% of them never have or will.

It's the most quoted, least read book.

Numanoid
12-03-09, 05:40 PM
But I think the best thing for him is to be a missionary....do some productive type of labor or service in a poor part of the world.You're assuming that he actually lives his life in pursuit of following Christ. I think that's just his means to become rich and/or famous, like so many others.

wm lopez
12-03-09, 07:04 PM
When asked in interviews, he avoided being labelled gay. No one knows what the hell he is. I believe in giving people second chances but the man is such a hypocrite. I wouldn't belive a word coming out of that guy's mouth then or now. He knows he was doing wrong and he spoke against being gay.
Should gay priests preach it's o.k. to pork little boys because they do it?

Dr Mabuse
12-03-09, 07:07 PM
Of course not.

They should commit suicide.

big whoppa
12-03-09, 07:13 PM
He knows he was doing wrong and he spoke against being gay.
Should gay priests preach it's o.k. to pork little boys because they do it?


It's wrong for anyone to pork little boys, period.

No matter whether he gets a second chance or not. I'm sure he's living hell on earth because no matter how much he surpresses or resists his urges or believes he's reformed, he'll still want to suck dick.

kvrdave
12-03-09, 07:34 PM
I don't think he's a televangelist, just a mega church guy. Like most they probably had a local broadcast on CO.

I used two guys as an example that may have lead kvr to think he was another tele guy. Not sure about that.

:lol: You mislead me.

I never followed the guy, so I had no real idea who he was.

Hokeyboy
12-03-09, 07:34 PM
He knows he was doing wrong and he spoke against being gay.
Should gay priests preach it's o.k. to pork little boys because they do it?
Gay = Pedophile? Sure thing...

kvrdave
12-03-09, 07:44 PM
He knows he was doing wrong and he spoke against being gay.
Should gay priests preach it's o.k. to pork little boys because they do it?

No, because it still feels wrong. I mean, I don't know how that feels, but it must feel wrong. I have no idea.....but it can't feel good. Right...it can't feel right, not good or bad.

Shit.

Supermallet
12-03-09, 07:49 PM
It's the most quoted, least read book.

"What you talkin' bout, Willis?" -Leviticus 4:22

Tsar Chasm
12-03-09, 09:35 PM
What was that about forgiving being divine?

Maybe that was the Muslim faith, not Christianity.

kvrdave
12-03-09, 11:32 PM
What was that about forgiving being divine?

Maybe that was the Muslim faith, not Christianity.

Or maybe that was a guy named Alexander Pope and that's why people think it is associated with Christianity. :lol:

VinVega
12-04-09, 09:16 AM
He's in the God business and business is good. Of course he'll get a second chance.

Troy Stiffler
12-04-09, 11:09 AM
God forgives.

Everyone else, not so much.

Dr Mabuse
12-04-09, 11:48 AM
So that's what hell is for... forgiveness.

:lol:

wm lopez
12-04-09, 07:18 PM
It's wrong for anyone to pork little boys, period.

No matter whether he gets a second chance or not. I'm sure he's living hell on earth because no matter how much he surpresses or resists his urges or believes he's reformed, he'll still want to suck dick. But he's telling his followers not to try it.
If he was on smack he's going to tell his followers not to try drugs.

Bandoman
12-04-09, 08:32 PM
But he's telling his followers not to try it.
If he was on smack he's going to tell his followers not to try drugs.
...and...?

Draven
12-04-09, 08:48 PM
But he's telling his followers not to try it.
If he was on smack he's going to tell his followers not to try drugs.

No, he just shouldn't be telling anyone anything. If you can't walk the walk...glass houses...pots...kettles.

He had his chance and he blew it...in more ways than one.

LiquidSky
12-04-09, 08:59 PM
...and...?

:lol: Bando....why even try to make sense?

Dr Mabuse
12-07-09, 11:18 AM
Well, he's getting back in to the game. Making jokes about his 'indiscretion' and stuff. No surprise the fools are already buying it.

Ted Haggard returns to the pulpit in Colorado

The disgraced former pastor is back in Colorado Springs, and his home prayer meetings have drawn an unexpected audience. 'I love a good redemption story,' a supporter says.

By DeeDee Correll

December 7, 2009

Reporting from Colorado Springs, Colo. - Ted Haggard climbed onto a bale of hay, Bible balanced in his palm.

"Welcome to my barn," he called out.

"Does anybody need a blanket?" his wife, Gayle, inquired as men and women in down coats shivered in the frigid November air. Some huddled underneath a space heater.

Then the blue-jeans-clad preacher began chanting: "God is good, God is good, God is good."

This musty barn next to the Haggard home is barely two miles -- but a universe away -- from the massive stage the former evangelical star once occupied at New Life Church. There, he would appear every Sunday before microphones, giant television screens and a congregation so large that services had to be held in shifts.

But in late 2006 came what Haggard, now 53, refers to as "the crisis," the revelation that he'd had a sexual relationship with a male escort. Haggard resigned from the church he had started in his basement 25 years ago and left Colorado Springs.

Now he's back and, some speculate, launching his second act.

Last month, Haggard -- who declined to be interviewed -- opened his home for a prayer meeting. He expected a dozen people. More than 100 came, and the Haggards moved the furniture out of the living room to make space.

A week later, he swept out his barn and rented 75 chairs. When they were filled, people stood against the back walls.

Many were former or current members of his old church who called him Pastor Ted. They said they had missed him, that he was born to preach -- not to sell insurance as he had when he first returned here. They said they had forgiven what they and Haggard regarded as his sins.

"I love a good redemption story," said Elly Kraai, a former New Life member. "I'm seeing one playing out here."

If Haggard can make a comeback, it will be because many evangelical Christians find his story appealing, said Michael Hamilton, an associate history professor at Seattle Pacific University who studies evangelicalism.

"Sin, sorrow, repentance, conversion and trying to live out your new faith -- that's the standard evangelical way to look at one's life," he said.

But whether Haggard can achieve his previous success is questionable, said Larry Eskridge, associate director of the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College in Illinois.

One sticking point could be that Haggard reportedly did not complete a church-mandated "restoration process." New Life officials have said Haggard quit the process in early 2008; he maintains that the church ended the process and that he did not ask to be released from the obligation.

"The larger question is the inability to put himself under someone else's authority and whether it shows true repentance," Eskridge said.

Another issue is the nature of the scandal itself. "Even though evangelical theology doesn't make distinctions between sins," Hamilton said, "homosexuality is a hard one for evangelicals to cope with."

But for two weeks in a row, Haggard -- who now makes a living giving speeches at churches across the country -- proved he could draw an audience.

As guests parked in his snow-crusted field and carried chocolate chip cookies and jugs of apple juice into the barn, he greeted them enthusiastically. "Look, everybody," Haggard announced when one person arrived with a special treat: "Chocolate cake!"

As the service began, he was jovial, even joking about his indiscretion. "If you're not getting enough snuggling [from your spouse], don't do it the way I did it," he said.

His audience chuckled, but grew hushed as he spoke of his ouster from New Life, describing his self-loathing and doubts. "Am I full of the devil? Am I everything that the paper says I am?" he said. "I was scared to death I'd gone off the deep end."

Haggard said he and his wife often awoke in the night in a cold sweat. "Those of you with financial fears know what that's like," he said.

In the back row, Kraai's eyes filled with tears. Another woman slowly nodded.

The rejection by friends and church members made his situation more painful, Haggard said. He did not name New Life, but spoke critically of people focused too intently on religion and rules instead of God.

"When you get yourself in trouble, are they going to draw near to you? No, they're going to disappear. They're going to judge you," he said.

H.B. London, vice president of church and clergy at Focus on the Family and a former member of Haggard's restoration team, criticized Haggard's decision to start a new church located so close to New Life as insensitive and premature.

London said he had heard from many pastors who didn't think Haggard was ready to lead a congregation again, asserting that Haggard had not completed the restoration process and was still in need of counseling.

But London said it didn't surprise him that Haggard could attract followers.

"He was a hero to many people, and people are pretty forgiving. Forgiveness is good, but just because you forgive someone does not give them the right to just begin again, necessarily," he said.

From a folding chair inside the barn, Carl Crews listened intently to Haggard's sermon. The former pastor is a changed man, less arrogant and more understanding, Crews said later. "Three or four years ago, he was more concerned about schedules, appointments, the tithe. He was busy all the time," Crews said.

"I think he understands for the first time in his life what people go through when they have to scrape their nose on the pavement for a living," attendee Randy Welsch said.

As the service ended, Haggard's supporters said they were glad he had not stayed away.

"He has a really big hole to dig out of," Welsch conceded. "I just want to see people give him a chance to see what happens."

Correll writes for The Times.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/link.gif (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-ted-haggard7-2009dec07,0,2372048.story?page=1)

jeffbase34
12-07-09, 11:25 AM
Well, he's getting back in to the game. Making jokes about his 'indiscretion' and stuff. No surprise the fools are already buying it.



http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/link.gif (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-ted-haggard7-2009dec07,0,2372048.story?page=1)

He obviously has that gift to make people want to believe and follow him. The joke sounded distasteful to me.

Dr Mabuse
12-07-09, 11:28 AM
Most con men do have that gift.

His game is what you call the 'long con'.

:lol:

Sean O'Hara
12-07-09, 11:39 AM
Just like Swaggert and Popoff and the rest of them. Hell Steve Martin made a movie about Popoff, and he's back on several TV channels getting richer than he was before for years now.

Well, in the movie Martin's character apparently performs several real miracles. Not exactly a major take-down.

cungar
12-07-09, 12:02 PM
All I know is when I don't get enough "snuggling from my spouse" I don't start cruising for some male on male action and crack. Anyone who would believe that would believe... well forget it, these are evangelical Christians.

Nick Danger
12-07-09, 12:06 PM
"When you get yourself in trouble, are they going to draw near to you? No, they're going to disappear. They're going to judge you," he said.

I've heard that story a lot. But it's usually from people who've left the church because of it, or who have left Christianity. It's cool that Haggard is willing to put his finger on one of the big problems. But I wonder what he'll do for a followup.

CRM114
12-07-09, 12:12 PM
You're talking about a con man conning masses that live a con job every day. Shocking.

cungar
01-27-10, 12:41 PM
Looks like he kicked the gay thing.

Disgraced pastor is freed of gay urges, wife says
Ted Haggard’s wife says counseling has cured him of his compulsions
By Mike Celizic
TODAYshow.com contributor
updated 7:28 a.m. PT, Wed., Jan. 27, 2010
It has been more than three years since charismatic pastor Ted Haggard left his megachurch in disgrace, mired in a scandal involving drug use and a male prostitute. But the woman who stood by him says now that the experience has brought them closer together than ever.

“Our relationship is better than it’s ever been. Going over this mountain together has given me the marriage that I’ve always longed for,” Gayle Haggard told TODAY’s Meredith Vieira Wednesday in New York.

Gayle Haggard had come to discuss her new book, “Why I Stayed: The Choices I Made in My Darkest Hour.” Although the dilemma was painful, the answer, she writes, was simple: She loved her husband.

Rise and fall
In 2006, the Haggards were an evangelical version of the American Dream. They had met as students at Oral Roberts University, fallen in love and gotten married. As they were starting their family of five children, they also started a church that first met in their Colorado Springs home.

With Gayle directing the women’s ministries and Ted driving the growth of the congregation, the New Life Church grew to a 14,000-member congregation, and Ted became the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. His counsel was sought by President George W. Bush.

And then, in November of that year, it all came crashing down. A homosexual prostitute, Mike Jones, angry at Haggard’s opposition to same-sex marriage, alleged that Haggard had been a client for several years and had also purchased methamphetamines from him.

Gayle told Vieira that when she first heard the accusations, she was in “total disbelief. I felt as though my marriage was at a healthy place. Everything in my life felt healthy at that time. I felt as though our family was doing well. Ted was clinging to me and felt closer to me than ever before. Our church felt healthy. That was probably the happiest time in my life up until that point.”

The next day, the couple went to their attorney’s office to discuss the allegations. Although Haggard would hide the truth from the public for as long as he could, he came clean to his wife.

“The attorney told me to go in the office with Ted and he closed the door,” Gayle said. “I just felt life draining from my body because things didn’t feel right all of a sudden. I sat down with Ted and he looked at me and he said, ‘Gayle, I have to tell you, some of the allegations are true.’ ”

Gayle was dumbstruck.

“That was such a shock and such a heartbreak, I couldn’t speak. I couldn’t put the words together. They didn’t fit with the man I knew,” she said. “I think eventually I uttered the words, ‘Who are you?’ Because it was so far removed from the man that I knew.”

‘Choosing to love’
The Haggards drove home and told their children. They also met with the church elders who would eventually strip him of his job and order him to leave Colorado altogether.

That night, Gayle allowed Ted into her bed, and when he reached out, she found herself struggling to decide whether to allow him to touch her. She writes about that moment in her book:

“My heart broke in that instant. I knew the importance of physical touch ... And I knew the damage rejection could cause. Broken people need to be touched, and by reaching out, Ted was pleading for my help. I wanted to help him; I didn’t want to reject him — but what was I supposed to do with the anger, revulsion and pain that were warring in my heart? I had coached other women through this. Now it was my turn .... And so that night I began my journey of choosing ... Choosing to love.”

Vieira asked Gayle what led her to make that choice at a time when she had to be hurting so horribly.

“I knew I was going to have to make the choice early on as to what I was going to do,” Gayle said. “I chose early on that I really do love this man, and I’m willing to fight with him for our marriage and for our family — actually for everything that I cared about.”

The couple had no savings. They received a year’s severance pay, but their income dried up during the three years they were forced to live in Arizona while Ted went to therapy to deal with his sexual demons.

No more compulsions?
Both Ted and Gayle say that their love life was always strong. Ted has said that he learned during therapy that he had been abused by an adult male when he was a child and he was acting out that experience as an adult.

In an appearance on “Oprah,” Ted said, “The biggest thing that’s helped me is therapy. Since that time, I have not had one compulsive thought or behavior.”

To Vieira, Gayle added, “In Ted’s case, he had had some experiences as a child that kept replaying themselves in his mind. Once he went to therapy he was able to identify that and was given the tools to deal with it. Because of that, he no longer has those compulsions. That’s not true for everybody. That’s his story.”

Ted had told Gayle of one experience with another man he’d had early in their marriage. She accepted his plea for forgiveness and thought it wouldn’t happen again.

“At that point, I was ignorant of the gravity. I felt as though we all struggle in different areas of our life, and certainly in our sexuality, so I was willing to forgive him. That was painful at that time,” she told Vieira. “He had gone to a counselor ... I felt as though the problem was pretty much solved.”

But it wasn’t solved. “Through the years, what I’ve discovered is that it would reemerge in Ted’s life from time to time, but he didn’t tell me about it,” Gayle said. “When I would ask him, he would say it was no longer a problem, since it was something he was ashamed of and trying to hide.”

The human condition
Finally, Jones dropped his bombshell allegations and the game was up. They moved the family to Arizona and found themselves disgraced and reviled. Their struggles were documented in last year’s HBO documentary, “The Trials of Ted Haggard.”

And now, Gayle is telling her own intimate story in her book.

Jones said he revealed Ted’s activities to expose the pastor’s hypocrisy. Vieira asked Gayle if it was true that her husband had been a hypocrite.

“The term means to say one thing and do another,” Gayle said. “However, I have discovered that is the human condition. All of us have ideals that we strive for in our lives. So I think that all of us are to one degree or another a hypocrite. Ted just had to play his out on a very public stage.”



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Josh-da-man
01-27-10, 12:52 PM
How long before he gets caught with a dick up his ass again?

cungar
01-27-10, 01:03 PM
Gayle said. “However, I have discovered that is the human condition. All of us have ideals that we strive for in our lives. So I think that all of us are to one degree or another a hypocrite. Ted just had to play his out on a very public stage.”


Yeah we're all hypocrites. But buying crack and screwing male prostitutes while you preach the holy gospel to thousands of people is hypocricy on such a scale it's almost impossible to fathom.

Nick Danger
01-27-10, 01:08 PM
It looks like he's casting himself in the role of a man who was cured of the gay by Christ. So long as he keeps himself from thinking bad thoughts, he should be able to parlay that into speaking engagements for a long time.

I don't know what to think of Mrs Haggard. Her husband did the Christian equivalent of joining Al-Quaeda, and she still stood by him. Now she's willing to humiliate herself in this book. Is she strong and loyal, or is she a doormat?

RunBandoRun
01-27-10, 01:26 PM
Oh yeah, pray to be straight. That always works. -ohbfrank-

Groucho
01-27-10, 01:37 PM
He just bought his wife a strap-on. Problem solved.

LiquidSky
01-27-10, 02:13 PM
He just bought his wife a strap-on. Problem solved.

:lol:

Nick Danger
01-27-10, 11:23 PM
I thought of posting that, but I took the high road and deleted it.