The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
11-13-09, 06:39 AM
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The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Hy:
As many of you know, for whatever REAL reason (many things have been said, includin rhe famous "he did it after not so good reception bu criticas and puplic", but nobody has ever been on the guys mind) Kubrick cut 20 minutes off the american version for international release.
Now, i love this movie. Living in Spain, the only versión i grew up with was the short one. And i just adored it. Then i discovered this story of pasion, greed, romance and adventure that was the recut of the movie and got curious.
Once i have seen it.. i love it. But.. do i love it more thant the shorter one? On first impression, the impression i got (sorry for the word repeating, i learned english by reading in the internet; my vocabulary range isnt that huge) is that the long cut plays like a normal, even vulgar world of everyday life, suddenly interrupted by forces of profound evil being and violence. The shorter cut, to the contrary, plays more like a horror story rold in linera fashion. I´m not sure i expressed myself that clearly, but i hope it was clear enough.
Many people say that the long version expresess the fact that Jack had beaten up his son while drunk. Let me tell you something from somebody who grew up with the short one; i already knew. True, the american version spells it out for you, but yhere is something about the acting and shooting of the ssene between LLoyd and Jack at the bar... I knew THAT moment, everything. It seemed as Kubrick did not even need to speel it out. You felt he was a drunk that had stopped drinking; you knew he drinks when he gets frustrated, and you knew he probably was (more than probably) very intoxicated when he hurt Danny. You just knew. (wich is either a sign of my excesive imagination or, my own two cents, a demonstration of Kubrick absolute skills). So, you see, while this additions are nice, i really dont see that subplot excised with them.
Anyway, the jury is still out on which (if one) i prefere. Need more viewings. I have read somewhere that Kubrick preferred the short one. I dont think he would impose a not really liked version for the international market even, after his dead, but that doesnt necesarily mean he dsiaproved the long one; in fact, the fact that its still out there as the oficiall one in the USA proves the contarry. But... does someone know if that is even true? About the preference, i mena. You all know how some "legends" and "fabricated facts" get started in the internet, dont you?
So... Whats your opinion? Should Sorel be banned or not... no wait.. that s not... Anyway. What do you guys think? Do YOU have a preferred cut? Both? The ones who grew up with the american cut... what do you think about the shortened version?
FIGHT!
PD: By the way, sorry for the grammer and spelling errors. I really never went to any sort of academy or english school, only learned by reading and watching movies. So cut me some slack, ok? Thanks.
As many of you know, for whatever REAL reason (many things have been said, includin rhe famous "he did it after not so good reception bu criticas and puplic", but nobody has ever been on the guys mind) Kubrick cut 20 minutes off the american version for international release.
Now, i love this movie. Living in Spain, the only versión i grew up with was the short one. And i just adored it. Then i discovered this story of pasion, greed, romance and adventure that was the recut of the movie and got curious.
Once i have seen it.. i love it. But.. do i love it more thant the shorter one? On first impression, the impression i got (sorry for the word repeating, i learned english by reading in the internet; my vocabulary range isnt that huge) is that the long cut plays like a normal, even vulgar world of everyday life, suddenly interrupted by forces of profound evil being and violence. The shorter cut, to the contrary, plays more like a horror story rold in linera fashion. I´m not sure i expressed myself that clearly, but i hope it was clear enough.
Many people say that the long version expresess the fact that Jack had beaten up his son while drunk. Let me tell you something from somebody who grew up with the short one; i already knew. True, the american version spells it out for you, but yhere is something about the acting and shooting of the ssene between LLoyd and Jack at the bar... I knew THAT moment, everything. It seemed as Kubrick did not even need to speel it out. You felt he was a drunk that had stopped drinking; you knew he drinks when he gets frustrated, and you knew he probably was (more than probably) very intoxicated when he hurt Danny. You just knew. (wich is either a sign of my excesive imagination or, my own two cents, a demonstration of Kubrick absolute skills). So, you see, while this additions are nice, i really dont see that subplot excised with them.
Anyway, the jury is still out on which (if one) i prefere. Need more viewings. I have read somewhere that Kubrick preferred the short one. I dont think he would impose a not really liked version for the international market even, after his dead, but that doesnt necesarily mean he dsiaproved the long one; in fact, the fact that its still out there as the oficiall one in the USA proves the contarry. But... does someone know if that is even true? About the preference, i mena. You all know how some "legends" and "fabricated facts" get started in the internet, dont you?
So... Whats your opinion? Should Sorel be banned or not... no wait.. that s not... Anyway. What do you guys think? Do YOU have a preferred cut? Both? The ones who grew up with the american cut... what do you think about the shortened version?
FIGHT!
PD: By the way, sorry for the grammer and spelling errors. I really never went to any sort of academy or english school, only learned by reading and watching movies. So cut me some slack, ok? Thanks.
11-13-09, 07:15 AM
#2
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Welcome. I think you're going to fit in fine here. As someone who adores the novel, I hate the hackjob Kubrick did to it, short or long. Had the ABC mini been done on HBO with some gore, it would have been amazing. I still think it is better than the Kubrick version but still falls far short of the novel due to network limitations.
11-13-09, 08:32 AM
#3
Moderator
Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Here's what the OP is talking about, for those who have not seen both versions:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/alternateversions
Originally Posted by imdb
When released theatrically in the United States, the film ran approx. 146 minutes. However, as explained above, three weeks into its release, Kubrick cut the 2 minute coda from the end of the film, reducing its length to 144 minutes. After meeting with poor reviews and erratic box office, Kubrick decided to further edit the film for its theatrical release outside the US. He cut approximately 31 minutes of footage, reducing the length to 113 minutes. The 144 minute 'US version' is often erroneously called the Director's Cut when in fact director Kubrick regarded the 113 minute version as the superior cut of the film. When the film was released on home video in the US, Kubrick endorsed the shorter version of the film as the 'official' version. Nevertheless, the longer version is the version now most commonly available. The following is a list of all the scenes or parts of scenes not present in the shorter 'European version':
* After the first scene with Wendy (Shelley Duvall) and Danny (Danny Lloyd), the film cuts back to Jack (Jack Nicholson) at the Overlook, where his interview with Stuart Ullman (Barry Nelson) continues. Jack is introduced to Bill Watson (Barry Dennen), and Ullman tells Watson that Jack used to work as a schoolteacher. Jack says he became a writer because he needed a change in his life. Ullman then explains that the Overlook is closed every winter from the end of October to the following May, because it would be too expensive to keep the roads open, and he points out that the site was chosen specifically for its seclusion.
* When Danny first 'sees' the Grady twins in his bathroom at home, he blacks out. When he awakes, he is being examined by a doctor (Anne Jackson). This entire examination scene, and the subsequent conversations were all cut. Danny says that before his black-out he was talking to Tony, "the little boy who lives inside my mouth". Wendy and the Doctor then talk in private, and Wendy mentions an incident in which Jack dislocated Danny's shoulder in a drunken fit of temper, at which time he swore never to touch alcohol again. That was five months ago, and since then, he has kept his word.
* During their tour of the Overlook, Jack and Wendy are brought into the Colorado Lounge, and Wendy asks if the Indian designs are authentic. Ullman explains that they are based on ancient Navajo and Apache motifs. He then mentions the prestigious history of the hotel, saying it was a stopping place for the jet set, for four presidents, movie stars and "all the best people".
* The beginning of the scene where Ullman shows Jack and Wendy the hotel grounds has been cut. He points out "our famous hedge maze" and warns them not to go in unless they have an hour or so to spare.
* Prior to the introduction of Dick Hallorann (Scatman Crothers), Ullman shows off The Gold Room and explains that all liquor is removed during the winter so as to reduce insurance costs. Hallorann is then introduced, and the secretary Susie (Alison Coleridge) appears, having found Danny outside the games room. Ullman then leaves with Jack, and Hallorann takes Wendy around the kitchen.
* Some of Danny's conversation with Hallorann has been cut. Danny asks Hallorann if he is scared of the Overlook, and Hallorann replies that he isn't, but that "some places are like people, some shine and some don't. I guess you could say the Overlook Hotel here has something about it that's like shining."
* The first few shots of Wendy wheeling the breakfast tray through the corridors have been cut.
* The end of the scene where Wendy brings Jack his breakfast has been cut. He comments that he has never been as happy or as comfortable anywhere as he is in the Overlook and Wendy reveals that she thought the place was scary when they first arrived. Jack replies that he fell in love with it straight away and he felt as if he had been there before.
* The scene of Jack throwing the ball against the wall is shorter.
* After Wendy and Danny explore the maze, a sequence has been cut showing Wendy working in the kitchen while a TV announcer talks of a search in the mountains for a missing woman, and a snow-storm that is predicted to be moving in on Colorado.
* Following the scene in which Jack loses his temper with Wendy for interrupting him, the title THURSDAY was deleted.
* After the scene in which Danny is confronted by the Grady twins in the corridor, and they invite him to play with them, a scene has been cut in which Wendy and Danny are watching TV. Danny asks if he can go to his room to get his toy fire-engine and Wendy tells him to be quiet because Jack is sleeping.
* Some dialogue has been cut from the first conversation between Jack and Lloyd (Joe Turkel). Jack toasts, "Here's to five miserable months on the wagon and all the irreparable harm that it's caused me". Lloyd then asks him how things are, and Jack comments that they could be a whole lot better, that he is having trouble with his wife. Lloyd comments, "Women! Can't live with 'em. Can't live without 'em", and Jack wholeheartedly agrees.
* After he has returned from examining Room 237, Jack's conversation with Wendy is slightly shorter.
* After the scene between Jack and Grady ('Philip Stone' ), a sequence has been cut in which Wendy is seen crying and talking to herself, musing about the possibility of getting down the mountain in the Sno-cat, and of calling the Forest Rangers. She then hears Danny calling out "red rum" over and over, but when she tries to talk to him, she is only 'answered' by Tony, who tells her that Danny can't hear her.
* A scene has been cut in which Hallorann tries to get through to the Overlook by calling the Ranger station. They tell him that they've tried to get through several times but there has been no answer, and they offer to try again later.
* Prior to the shot of Hallorann's plane, the title 8AM has been deleted.
* On the plane, Hallorann asks a stewardess what time they are due to land in Denver and she tells him at 8.20. Jack is then seen typing in the lounge of the Overlook. Hallorann's plane lands at the airport and he calls Larry Durkin (Tony Burton), a garage owner, to rent a Sno-cat so as to get up to the Overlook. Durkin says the mountain roads are completely blocked off, and Hallorann explains that the people looking after the hotel turned out to be "completely unreliable assholes". Hallorann estimates that it will take him five hours to drive from the airport to collect the cat, and Larry says the Sno-cat will be waiting for him when he arrives.
* The beginning of the scene in which Wendy finds Jack's type-written pages has been cut. She and Danny are watching television and she looks at her watch, telling Danny that she is going to talk to his father for a few minutes and that he should stay there. She picks up the baseball bat before leaving.
* In the final scene, when Jack is pursuing Danny through the maze and Wendy is being confronted by some of the Overlook spooks, a short scene where she encounters a group of skeletons sitting at a table with a champagne bottle and glasses has been cut.
* After the first scene with Wendy (Shelley Duvall) and Danny (Danny Lloyd), the film cuts back to Jack (Jack Nicholson) at the Overlook, where his interview with Stuart Ullman (Barry Nelson) continues. Jack is introduced to Bill Watson (Barry Dennen), and Ullman tells Watson that Jack used to work as a schoolteacher. Jack says he became a writer because he needed a change in his life. Ullman then explains that the Overlook is closed every winter from the end of October to the following May, because it would be too expensive to keep the roads open, and he points out that the site was chosen specifically for its seclusion.
* When Danny first 'sees' the Grady twins in his bathroom at home, he blacks out. When he awakes, he is being examined by a doctor (Anne Jackson). This entire examination scene, and the subsequent conversations were all cut. Danny says that before his black-out he was talking to Tony, "the little boy who lives inside my mouth". Wendy and the Doctor then talk in private, and Wendy mentions an incident in which Jack dislocated Danny's shoulder in a drunken fit of temper, at which time he swore never to touch alcohol again. That was five months ago, and since then, he has kept his word.
* During their tour of the Overlook, Jack and Wendy are brought into the Colorado Lounge, and Wendy asks if the Indian designs are authentic. Ullman explains that they are based on ancient Navajo and Apache motifs. He then mentions the prestigious history of the hotel, saying it was a stopping place for the jet set, for four presidents, movie stars and "all the best people".
* The beginning of the scene where Ullman shows Jack and Wendy the hotel grounds has been cut. He points out "our famous hedge maze" and warns them not to go in unless they have an hour or so to spare.
* Prior to the introduction of Dick Hallorann (Scatman Crothers), Ullman shows off The Gold Room and explains that all liquor is removed during the winter so as to reduce insurance costs. Hallorann is then introduced, and the secretary Susie (Alison Coleridge) appears, having found Danny outside the games room. Ullman then leaves with Jack, and Hallorann takes Wendy around the kitchen.
* Some of Danny's conversation with Hallorann has been cut. Danny asks Hallorann if he is scared of the Overlook, and Hallorann replies that he isn't, but that "some places are like people, some shine and some don't. I guess you could say the Overlook Hotel here has something about it that's like shining."
* The first few shots of Wendy wheeling the breakfast tray through the corridors have been cut.
* The end of the scene where Wendy brings Jack his breakfast has been cut. He comments that he has never been as happy or as comfortable anywhere as he is in the Overlook and Wendy reveals that she thought the place was scary when they first arrived. Jack replies that he fell in love with it straight away and he felt as if he had been there before.
* The scene of Jack throwing the ball against the wall is shorter.
* After Wendy and Danny explore the maze, a sequence has been cut showing Wendy working in the kitchen while a TV announcer talks of a search in the mountains for a missing woman, and a snow-storm that is predicted to be moving in on Colorado.
* Following the scene in which Jack loses his temper with Wendy for interrupting him, the title THURSDAY was deleted.
* After the scene in which Danny is confronted by the Grady twins in the corridor, and they invite him to play with them, a scene has been cut in which Wendy and Danny are watching TV. Danny asks if he can go to his room to get his toy fire-engine and Wendy tells him to be quiet because Jack is sleeping.
* Some dialogue has been cut from the first conversation between Jack and Lloyd (Joe Turkel). Jack toasts, "Here's to five miserable months on the wagon and all the irreparable harm that it's caused me". Lloyd then asks him how things are, and Jack comments that they could be a whole lot better, that he is having trouble with his wife. Lloyd comments, "Women! Can't live with 'em. Can't live without 'em", and Jack wholeheartedly agrees.
* After he has returned from examining Room 237, Jack's conversation with Wendy is slightly shorter.
* After the scene between Jack and Grady ('Philip Stone' ), a sequence has been cut in which Wendy is seen crying and talking to herself, musing about the possibility of getting down the mountain in the Sno-cat, and of calling the Forest Rangers. She then hears Danny calling out "red rum" over and over, but when she tries to talk to him, she is only 'answered' by Tony, who tells her that Danny can't hear her.
* A scene has been cut in which Hallorann tries to get through to the Overlook by calling the Ranger station. They tell him that they've tried to get through several times but there has been no answer, and they offer to try again later.
* Prior to the shot of Hallorann's plane, the title 8AM has been deleted.
* On the plane, Hallorann asks a stewardess what time they are due to land in Denver and she tells him at 8.20. Jack is then seen typing in the lounge of the Overlook. Hallorann's plane lands at the airport and he calls Larry Durkin (Tony Burton), a garage owner, to rent a Sno-cat so as to get up to the Overlook. Durkin says the mountain roads are completely blocked off, and Hallorann explains that the people looking after the hotel turned out to be "completely unreliable assholes". Hallorann estimates that it will take him five hours to drive from the airport to collect the cat, and Larry says the Sno-cat will be waiting for him when he arrives.
* The beginning of the scene in which Wendy finds Jack's type-written pages has been cut. She and Danny are watching television and she looks at her watch, telling Danny that she is going to talk to his father for a few minutes and that he should stay there. She picks up the baseball bat before leaving.
* In the final scene, when Jack is pursuing Danny through the maze and Wendy is being confronted by some of the Overlook spooks, a short scene where she encounters a group of skeletons sitting at a table with a champagne bottle and glasses has been cut.
11-13-09, 07:47 PM
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DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I've seen the longer version so many times now that for me to even attempt to watch the shorter version would be a disaster. I would simply plug in any deleted scenes in my head. It would feel like watching a TV edit of the movie.
11-14-09, 06:16 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Its not that simple. In cuting a movie, more does not always mean just more, as less does not mean necesarilly just less. Sometimes the word is DIFFERENT. Some things just mean something diferent in one version than the other.
You should try it. America is a big place, but its really a meager little tningy if compared with the world. And he IMPOSED the short cut for most of it. He had to have a reason.
I´m not saying its better, or worse. I´m not saying one or the other are the definitive version at all. But guys, if one the greatest directors of all time has such a power over the final cut of his movies, and he decides to peramnently cut 20 minutes of it for BILLIONS of them compared to the american populetion... well. At least i would get curious.
Also, if you dont get curious, there will be no debate. And i´ll get bored. SO GET CURIOUS, DAMMIT!
You should try it. America is a big place, but its really a meager little tningy if compared with the world. And he IMPOSED the short cut for most of it. He had to have a reason.
I´m not saying its better, or worse. I´m not saying one or the other are the definitive version at all. But guys, if one the greatest directors of all time has such a power over the final cut of his movies, and he decides to peramnently cut 20 minutes of it for BILLIONS of them compared to the american populetion... well. At least i would get curious.
Also, if you dont get curious, there will be no debate. And i´ll get bored. SO GET CURIOUS, DAMMIT!
11-14-09, 12:18 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Wow, I was aware of the cut of the 2 minute epilogue, but I never knew there was a full 20 minutes taken out for the European release. I'm interested to see it.
11-14-09, 12:48 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
At last! A true cinephile! Not like the rest of you, you bunch of.. of... FAKERS!
(just joking)
PD: The american cut was shown one time on british television, i think, with permission of Kubrick himself. It has been shown on some places (in Spain it was shown on a little theater in Madrid, and in france i heart it opened shortly in one or more cinemas) but even today , the oficcial version that is sold on vhs, dvd or blu ray, mostly internationally, not only europe, is 20 minutres shorter.
(just joking
)PD: The american cut was shown one time on british television, i think, with permission of Kubrick himself. It has been shown on some places (in Spain it was shown on a little theater in Madrid, and in france i heart it opened shortly in one or more cinemas) but even today , the oficcial version that is sold on vhs, dvd or blu ray, mostly internationally, not only europe, is 20 minutres shorter.
Last edited by Sorel; 11-14-09 at 12:52 PM.
11-14-09, 05:38 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Its not that simple. In cuting a movie, more does not always mean just more, as less does not mean necesarilly just less. Sometimes the word is DIFFERENT. Some things just mean something diferent in one version than the other.
You should try it. America is a big place, but its really a meager little tningy if compared with the world. And he IMPOSED the short cut for most of it. He had to have a reason.
I´m not saying its better, or worse. I´m not saying one or the other are the definitive version at all. But guys, if one the greatest directors of all time has such a power over the final cut of his movies, and he decides to peramnently cut 20 minutes of it for BILLIONS of them compared to the american populetion... well. At least i would get curious.
Also, if you dont get curious, there will be no debate. And i´ll get bored. SO GET CURIOUS, DAMMIT!
You should try it. America is a big place, but its really a meager little tningy if compared with the world. And he IMPOSED the short cut for most of it. He had to have a reason.
I´m not saying its better, or worse. I´m not saying one or the other are the definitive version at all. But guys, if one the greatest directors of all time has such a power over the final cut of his movies, and he decides to peramnently cut 20 minutes of it for BILLIONS of them compared to the american populetion... well. At least i would get curious.
Also, if you dont get curious, there will be no debate. And i´ll get bored. SO GET CURIOUS, DAMMIT!
.
11-15-09, 06:31 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I didn't realize there was a shorter version. I don't think I'd like it more than the long one.
11-17-09, 06:38 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I've always been aware of the shorter version, but I've never seen it. I'd like to for the sake of curiosity.
What I think is most important to discsuss is:
1. Why did Kubrick shorten the film
2. Which version was his prefered version
I've never found anything that would indicate why he did it. Was it personal choice, an experiment, was he acquiescing to foriegn distribution demands (ie. Warners gave him final cut, but only for the US, in every other market it had to be less than 120 minutes)? Maybe Warners presold the film in foriegn markets as a double bill w/ another film? I don't know, I'm just speculating.
My guess is that the film was cut simply for length to make it shorter and get more screenings per day. This would explain why there is no documented explanation from Kubrick (ie. This would be an example of him not having complete control and he would be loath to talk or write about any situation where he didn't have control.)
What I think is most important to discsuss is:
1. Why did Kubrick shorten the film
2. Which version was his prefered version
I've never found anything that would indicate why he did it. Was it personal choice, an experiment, was he acquiescing to foriegn distribution demands (ie. Warners gave him final cut, but only for the US, in every other market it had to be less than 120 minutes)? Maybe Warners presold the film in foriegn markets as a double bill w/ another film? I don't know, I'm just speculating.
My guess is that the film was cut simply for length to make it shorter and get more screenings per day. This would explain why there is no documented explanation from Kubrick (ie. This would be an example of him not having complete control and he would be loath to talk or write about any situation where he didn't have control.)
11-17-09, 07:23 PM
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
:As someone who adores the novel, I hate the hackjob Kubrick did to it, short or long. Had the ABC mini been done on HBO with some gore, it would have been amazing. I still think it is better than the Kubrick version but still falls far short of the novel due to network limitations.
I personally think the film is rather sloppy and vastly overrated. Still pretty good though.
To answer the OP: I would love a chance to see the international cut. Maybe it fixes a few of Kubrick's mistakes in the film. Does anyoone know if it is available on the US Blu ray?
Last edited by DeputyDave; 11-17-09 at 07:28 PM.
11-18-09, 09:11 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I've always been aware of the shorter version, but I've never seen it. I'd like to for the sake of curiosity.
What I think is most important to discsuss is:
1. Why did Kubrick shorten the film
2. Which version was his prefered version
I've never found anything that would indicate why he did it. Was it personal choice, an experiment, was he acquiescing to foriegn distribution demands (ie. Warners gave him final cut, but only for the US, in every other market it had to be less than 120 minutes)? Maybe Warners presold the film in foriegn markets as a double bill w/ another film? I don't know, I'm just speculating.
My guess is that the film was cut simply for length to make it shorter and get more screenings per day. This would explain why there is no documented explanation from Kubrick (ie. This would be an example of him not having complete control and he would be loath to talk or write about any situation where he didn't have control.)
What I think is most important to discsuss is:
1. Why did Kubrick shorten the film
2. Which version was his prefered version
I've never found anything that would indicate why he did it. Was it personal choice, an experiment, was he acquiescing to foriegn distribution demands (ie. Warners gave him final cut, but only for the US, in every other market it had to be less than 120 minutes)? Maybe Warners presold the film in foriegn markets as a double bill w/ another film? I don't know, I'm just speculating.
My guess is that the film was cut simply for length to make it shorter and get more screenings per day. This would explain why there is no documented explanation from Kubrick (ie. This would be an example of him not having complete control and he would be loath to talk or write about any situation where he didn't have control.)
I met also the man responsible for the spanish dubbing. He saw the movie with Kubrick, and talked about it with him (Kubrick used to supervise even the foreign dubbing) and the short version was definetly his baby; he was very proud of it.
It was his making. The biggest theory, the one that, albeit has not been proven, or comented on, has been taken as almost the oficial version of it, is succes. Kubrick always comented that sucess was very important to maintain artistic controll over your movies. Even his widow has comented on this. Barry Lyndon was not a success, far from it. The screenings and first figures of The Shining, and of course, the reviews, were very poor. It si believed that facing the idae of facing two flops one after another was too much, so he tightened the movie to make it more palatable for audiences. That sounds very logical, yes, bur too what extend ist true, is debatable. Did he really believed that he was just making it easier for his audience, or did he even do it also convinced that maybe he was making also a better movie?
I dont think we will ever know. Most interviews i have seen with him about the movie were pre-changes, so his is talking solely about the long cut. It is mantained as truth that he preferred theshort one, but i never really found anything that really sustained this, and knowing how a rumour can become fact if repeated with enough conviction and insistence... who knows.
But still today, outside USA, we get the short version; i dont think this would happen if it all was a studio imposition (to a man who pulled outr Clockwork Orangaange from UK? A man with that power? Complicated) but the long cit is still in america. Changesare taht no matter what he preferred, he seemed to be allright with both cuts. Even if he thought that the short version was better, he didnt seem yo think that the longer cut was hurting the movie; and even if he tought the true version of the movie was the long one, didnt seem yo thing that the short hurt it neither.
Also, the short one works very much similarly to the stile of Jacket, in some way. More concide, more abrupt changes of theme and place; he seemed to learn something from the Shining experience.
11-18-09, 09:29 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
As someone who has grown up with the European shorter version, and only recently was able to watch the US cut, I think the longer cut works much better.
For one big reason:
If you take that away, then it's merely Wendy being hysterical and there's no reason to ask that of Jack Torrance.
The only thing I mind in the US version is some unnecessary scenes with the cook - and especially the
For one big reason:
Spoiler:
If you take that away, then it's merely Wendy being hysterical and there's no reason to ask that of Jack Torrance.
The only thing I mind in the US version is some unnecessary scenes with the cook - and especially the
Spoiler:
11-18-09, 09:32 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Probably the biggest cut is the whole doctor scene; now we get from Danny in front of the mirror seeing the blood coming out in his vision to all three of them in the car. It works very well, as it gives the whole scene of Dannys vision a sence of foreboding that is absent from the long cut; tahts what i mean withe "not only shorter, but diferent".
He also cut the scene where the cook telephones his friend to ask him for the car to go up there. Now we go from the plane where he si, directly to him driving the car in the snow, passing a truck which has had an accident.
Another important cut was the whole secuence wherewe see Dannt posesed by Tont, while his mother tries to wake him up and Tonys voice says "Dannt doesnt live here anymore, ms Torrance."
ASnother thing taht was cut was the scene were they are introduced to the cook in the golden room. In fact, the golden room entire secuence is cut; now we cutdirectly to the kitchen scene.
The rest are shortenings of scenes. Less dialogue here, less dialogue there, and far less walking toward or from places. Things like her taking the bat while Danny is watching Looney Tunes, or her walking a corridor; the whole going away from the tv while they are watching a movie abd Danny asks if he can go get his toy is cut; now we go directly to the scene where Danny is entering his parents room. (Some have praised the fact that he excised all tvs from the Overlook, giving a greater sense of isolation to the movie; i dont know...)
The interview is shorter, the hotel introduction is shorter, the cook-Danny dialogue is shorter...
He also cut the skeletons cobered wit webs at the end... Not the furry bear. Thats still there...
11-18-09, 09:34 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I must admit. We're actually having a good convo on this. The more I hear of it the more I want to see it, just to see how it feels overrall.
11-18-09, 09:38 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
As someone who has grown up with the European shorter version, and only recently was able to watch the US cut, I think the longer cut works much better.
For one big reason:
If you take that away, then it's merely Wendy being hysterical and there's no reason to ask that of Jack Torrance.
T.[/spoiler]
For one big reason:
Spoiler:
If you take that away, then it's merely Wendy being hysterical and there's no reason to ask that of Jack Torrance.
T.[/spoiler]
Before that, shewas just going to talk. The long version explanation may be haevier, but the other one works perfectly well.
The long version may be better, worse, or just diferent, but the short works very well on his own. The dida great editing job.
11-18-09, 09:57 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I dont agree; it may work slightly better in the long version, but it feels very natural that wendy wants him to go to the doctor in the short one. She is not being just histerical; he might have hurt himself; she gets histerical AFTER she has read Jacks marvellous non-monotonous prose...
When the reality is that, on top of Jack going nuts, she had a very good reason for wanting to have a doctor see Danny ASAP.
11-18-09, 10:37 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
She uses him as an excuse when she gaines the certainity that hes is absolutely bonkers. No problem with that. If you dont have the whole Dannt scene, it works perfetly well. Also, we dont really know if she was going to talk with him about the whole stuff; she has the bat because she still thinks or fears there might be a crazy woman around the hotel (in the short cut, he was horrible to her scenes before, but not "i need a bat" horrible). Now she has read hhis "great american novel" and he is coming toward her as a complete madman... She may just be searcvhing for an excuse to go OUT there. But she is also trying to hang to some kinf of logic, of sanity. Something taht reminds them both about their norlam life.
But even if she was wanting to talk with him about going to the doctor, wich posibly was... Its logical, not an excuse. She already thought so before. He hurt himself. Even with the doctor scene from the beginning cut out, if i was his mother, i would take that child to a doctor PRESTO. A human of any age taht hurst HIMSELF that way... Doctor Presto. SHe doesnt NEEDS for his son to go "da-da" also to go to doctor-man. Even less if we are talkin MONTHS of isolation...
But Jack stormed out. In fury. I think there is nothing strange on her trying to reason with him after she thinks he cooled down. Like we saw un the famous "sandwich scene" at the beginning with the "If i am in this room..." speach, she is very much used to him and his mood changes... He was always like this. But isolation abd "a littlke help from my ghosts friends" helped him "lucy in the sky with diamonds" to the extreme...
But even if she was wanting to talk with him about going to the doctor, wich posibly was... Its logical, not an excuse. She already thought so before. He hurt himself. Even with the doctor scene from the beginning cut out, if i was his mother, i would take that child to a doctor PRESTO. A human of any age taht hurst HIMSELF that way... Doctor Presto. SHe doesnt NEEDS for his son to go "da-da" also to go to doctor-man. Even less if we are talkin MONTHS of isolation...
But Jack stormed out. In fury. I think there is nothing strange on her trying to reason with him after she thinks he cooled down. Like we saw un the famous "sandwich scene" at the beginning with the "If i am in this room..." speach, she is very much used to him and his mood changes... He was always like this. But isolation abd "a littlke help from my ghosts friends" helped him "lucy in the sky with diamonds" to the extreme...
11-18-09, 11:02 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Perhaps Kubrick cut out scenes with dialog because he didn't think they worked well in foreign language markets. Of course this doesn't explain why the UK got the short version, unless they simply got hit with the same export version as the rest of the world just to simplify distribution.
The Shining has a lot of dread in its dialogue; the things that are said, and the sometimes flat way it is delivered give a menacing feeling. This doesn't come across in dubbing or subtitles. Maybe Kubrick thought the foriegn version needed to rely more on frightening imagery (which he kept in) and less on disturbing, dread-filled dialogue (which he cut).
The Shining has a lot of dread in its dialogue; the things that are said, and the sometimes flat way it is delivered give a menacing feeling. This doesn't come across in dubbing or subtitles. Maybe Kubrick thought the foriegn version needed to rely more on frightening imagery (which he kept in) and less on disturbing, dread-filled dialogue (which he cut).
11-18-09, 11:10 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Of course it does! The is nothing that can not be dubbed or sibtled in other languages! Foreigners use language too. Dread is not excluisve to english.
American dubbing usualy sucks; no ofense, you just dont do it that much; as much as i am against dubbing films, the so called interrnational market has true mastery over it; after all, 99 per cent of the movies you watch (meaning movies in cinema taht are easily ready por you ; i dont know what kind of movies you usually watch) are in your mother tonque. 99 per cent of the movies i am allowed to watch, are in english. we do MOSTLY dub. After so many years, our professionals are quite good ad it. True actors givin sometimes a HELL of a performance.
Also most of that flat dialogue you talk about still remains; the scenes are shortened, but not that much. Sometimes just one or ywo phrases.
In fact, there are dialogues i think are better off shortened.
Also, like you said; autralian and UK, still cut. And they speak a pretty good english.
American dubbing usualy sucks; no ofense, you just dont do it that much; as much as i am against dubbing films, the so called interrnational market has true mastery over it; after all, 99 per cent of the movies you watch (meaning movies in cinema taht are easily ready por you ; i dont know what kind of movies you usually watch) are in your mother tonque. 99 per cent of the movies i am allowed to watch, are in english. we do MOSTLY dub. After so many years, our professionals are quite good ad it. True actors givin sometimes a HELL of a performance.
Also most of that flat dialogue you talk about still remains; the scenes are shortened, but not that much. Sometimes just one or ywo phrases.
In fact, there are dialogues i think are better off shortened.
Also, like you said; autralian and UK, still cut. And they speak a pretty good english.
Last edited by Sorel; 11-18-09 at 11:13 AM.
11-18-09, 12:02 PM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
Speaking of The Shining - why was Jack in the picture at the end?
And cut vs. uncut - I never knew that that was a cut version before this thread. But if the question is which version should a person who has never seen the movie before see - go with the original, uncut version.
And cut vs. uncut - I never knew that that was a cut version before this thread. But if the question is which version should a person who has never seen the movie before see - go with the original, uncut version.
11-19-09, 07:30 AM
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Re: The Shining...cut or uncut? FIGHT!
I know that King was not happy with Kubrick's The Shining but King's attempt was rather boring. I think the problem lies in the difficulty of creating thoughts and presence in films. Dean Koontz has suffered far worse than Stephen King in the film realm solely because no one has found a way to effectively transfer thoughts and presence. We can make a haunted house demonstrate physical and sonic changes but conveying what the novels can make you feel about the house to celluloid is extremely difficult without being hokey or confusing. Jacob's Ladder is
Directors have tried various methods of illustrating thoughts, dreams, remembrances and hallucinations. Unfortunately, due to the varied attempts to convey these states the watcher is many times confused as to what is actually being presented, whereas a novel can easily inform the reader.
My first exposure to The Shining was the trailer, which was one of the most powerful trailers I have ever seen. Almost a film in itself. I'd like to see the international version, although a "Edited For Television" feel is making me squirm. Thankfully Kubrick didn't burn everything after the international cut like has happened to too many films.
Spoiler:
My first exposure to The Shining was the trailer, which was one of the most powerful trailers I have ever seen. Almost a film in itself. I'd like to see the international version, although a "Edited For Television" feel is making me squirm. Thankfully Kubrick didn't burn everything after the international cut like has happened to too many films.