MLB 2009-2010 Offseason Thread

[cardsfan111]

Figured we needed a place for fans of the 28 teams no longer playing to discuss their teams and newsworthy MLB headlines.



Starting with a big headline:

Mark McGwire to be Cardinals hitting coach in 2010 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4593412)


Count me as one that's shocked by this. I'm not bothered by it, and I think he can do a great job. I just figured McGwire had resigned to the recluse lifestyle. Obviously, he'll face lots of questions. Hope he's prepared for it and doesn't bail out under the barrage of media attention.

[VinVega]

Figured we needed a place for fans of the 28 teams no longer playing to discuss their teams and newsworthy MLB headlines.



Starting with a big headline:

Mark McGwire to be Cardinals hitting coach in 2010 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4593412)


Count me as one that's shocked by this. I'm not bothered by it, and I think he can do a great job. I just figured McGwire had resigned to the recluse lifestyle. Obviously, he'll face lots of questions. Hope he's prepared for it and doesn't bail out under the barrage of media attention.
It's going to be a circus in Spring Training for the Cardinals. If they're smart, they'll hold a press conference where he can address any and all questions relating to his roid use.

-edit Also, Big Mac needs to man the fuck up and admit he did them. If he does, it will go a long way to healing the public's image of him.

[Mad Dawg]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ArFdMimrfmqLTnBnzy0cjAsRvLYF?slug=ap-indians-acta&prov=ap&type=lgns

Manny Acta to manage Cleveland. He beats out Bobby Valentine, and Cleveland beats out Houston for Acta's services.

[cardsfan111]

^ Interesting article outlining how much Acta wanted and pursued the job. A slant I don't usually consider, a managerial candidate doing their homework and working to impress a team.

[Mad Dawg]

I love the blurb on Valentine. Way to show up, Bobby. "Thanks for interviewing me. So, uh, is this some sort of football team or something?"

[Goat3001]

Starting with a big headline:

Mark McGwire to be Cardinals hitting coach in 2010 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4593412)


Count me as one that's shocked by this. I'm not bothered by it, and I think he can do a great job. I just figured McGwire had resigned to the recluse lifestyle. Obviously, he'll face lots of questions. Hope he's prepared for it and doesn't bail out under the barrage of media attention.

I don't see the benefit for this for the Cardinals. You're creating a media circus and plenty of negative press... is adding Mac as a hitting coach really worth it? I'm sure he can do a fine job but it seems like you can get someone who can do just as well with much less baggage.

[MrX]

former New York Mets manager Bobby Valentine, who may have eliminated himself from consideration when he arrived at second interview earlier this week and admitted that he not done his homework on Cleveland or the American League and wasn’t sure he wanted the job.

I wonder if he showed up wearing the disguise he was wearing after he was thrown out of a game years ago.

[cardsfan111]

I don't see the benefit for this for the Cardinals. You're creating a media circus and plenty of negative press... is adding Mac as a hitting coach really worth it? I'm sure he can do a fine job but it seems like you can get someone who can do just as well with much less baggage.

From what I've heard/read, McGwire would be "available" like any other coach and surely he can anticipate what he's about to walk in to. I predict there will be a press conference at some point where he'll hit this head on and it will be put behind him (much like Pettitte, A-Rod, etc.) I don't think the team will take the heat so much, unless as I indicated before, McGwire quits and leaves them looking foolish.

As far as the fit, McGwire certainly has a familiarity with the organization and coaches. He's also provided individual instruction to several Cardinals during the last few years. And the weak spot for St. Louis this year was plate discipline...a philosophy that McGwire obviously embraced as a hitter himself.

And it can't be overlooked that LaRussa threw in his two cents about McGwire coming back. Though he's been quoted as saying he was still leaning towards a return to the Cardinals regardless of the decision to have McGwire as a coach, management probably felt like this would seal the deal for LaRussa (and Duncan) to come back.

[B.A.]

I had a feeling this would be started today.

Now let's see if he bails on the gig before spring training.

[VinVega]

And it can't be overlooked that LaRussa threw in his two cents about McGwire coming back. Though he's been quoted as saying he was still leaning towards a return to the Cardinals regardless of the decision to have McGwire as a coach, management probably felt like this would seal the deal for LaRussa (and Duncan) to come back.
I heard that Duncan was pissed off at the Cardinals organization for how they treated his son. From the way his attitude as being portrayed, it didn't look like he wanted to come back at all.

[coli]

I love when the McGwire defenders in baseball say, "Well, Steroids wasn't illegal when he played, so why is everyone castigating him!"

I would answer, "Then why doesn't he just tell the truth and admit he did it and say it wasn't illegal at the time."

He wont do that because he knows his career will be tainted, (as it already is) if he admits to taking steroids, even though they weren't testing in 1998.

Just admit it Mark, and just say that it was the culture at that time. I believe guys saw other guys getting bigger, and felt they had to stay competitive and steroids may have been the only way. I am not defending the roid guys, but I can see how they all got swept up into it.

We all want to move on, but as long as they guys 'dont want to talk about the past', this issue will always linger.

[cardsfan111]

The Astros have hired Brad Mills, formerly bench coach for the Red Sox, as their new manager.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4599262)

Publicly stated as not their first choice. They were snubbed by Acta when he went to Cleveland.

[Mad Dawg]

Good for Mills, although I'm surprised that they didn't rehire Garner.

[cardsfan111]

Good for Mills, although I'm surprised that they didn't rehire Garner.

I heard Garner's name brought up for the opening, but I wonder if he was even seriously considered. Even if Houston wanted to bring back the guy they fired just 2+ years ago, would Garner even consider it? Surely there'd have to be some bad feelings between the two sides.

[Mad Dawg]

I heard Garner's name brought up for the opening, but I wonder if he was even seriously considered. Even if Houston wanted to bring back the guy they fired just 2+ years ago, would Garner even consider it? Surely there'd have to be some bad feelings between the two sides.

It was kind of an interesting story, and Garner came off as a little bit snakey. Basically he called the FO to put in a good word for his friend, Bob Melvin. During the call, they actually asked him to interview and he was all over it. :lol:

Anyway, among a lot of the local sports talking heads, he was the first choice. The consensus is really that he got fired for not overacheiving with a weak team as he had before, and that he didn't get a fair shake. I'm not sure if he was there at the end with Clark, Acta, and Mills, but he got pretty far into it.

[Jobronie]

Aroldis Chapman was supposed to throw a bullpen at Fenway today (some reports had teams besides the Red Sox observing), but first the rains came and canceled it......

[Goat3001]

^I don't care where he ends up, I just hope he's a flop. I don't like teams spending so much money on talent that hasn't played in the majors.

[scott1598]

Yanks win World Series in 5! (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/9802206-post18.html)

oh...these are current headlines. my bad.

[LurkerDan]

Count me as one that's shocked by this. I'm not bothered by it, and I think he can do a great job. I just figured McGwire had resigned to the recluse lifestyle. Obviously, he'll face lots of questions. Hope he's prepared for it and doesn't bail out under the barrage of media attention.

I think this is his attempt to repair his image. That was never going to happen so long as he stayed away from baseball.

[cardsfan111]

Somthing I found interesting... I heard in the Houston media that the Astros wanted to get their manager hired/announced before Selig's "ban" on announcements during the World Series. I also read that the Cardinals called Selig before announcing McGwire has hitting coach, asking if it was ok to do so (not permission to hire McGwire, but inquiring whether they could make the announcement itself).

Guess all of this is related to the A-Rod controversy from a couple of years ago when he/Boras made news while the World Series was being played. I knew Selig was unhappy about that, but didn't realize he had apparently put his foot down.

[Goat3001]

^Leave it to Selig to "put his foot down" over shit that doesn't matter.

[Deftones]

Dbacks have to decide 5 days after WS on whether to pick up Webb's $8.5 million option or buy him out at $2 million. Either way, he's gone from here, just might be one year earlier.

[cardsfan111]

Dbacks have to decide 5 days after WS on whether to pick up Webb's $8.5 million option or buy him out at $2 million. Either way, he's gone from here, just might be one year earlier.

What's the update concerning his health? In essence the decision comes down to whether his expected performance in 2010 will be worth 6.5 million.

[Deftones]

What's the update concerning his health? In essence the decision comes down to whether his expected performance in 2010 will be worth 6.5 million.

nobody knows. because his surgery was so late in the season (his own fault for not getting it early) the Dbacks will be totally in the dark. he could go back to being the way he was or he could be completely done. basically a coin flip.

[davidh777]

I think this is his attempt to repair his image. That was never going to happen so long as he stayed away from baseball.

I think that's it. He knows he's never going to make the HOF on his current path so he needs to take the risk and see if he can change his fortunes.

[davidh777]

Mariners get a gift when Kenji Johjima walks away from the last two years of his extension to return to Japan. Nice outcome to a terrible move last year on the Mariners' part (thanks to Bavasi/ownership).

[Mad Dawg]

That is such a great thing for Seattle, and rare to see someone walk away from guaranteed money for playing time.

[cardsfan111]

The Giants signed Freddy Sanchez to a 2-year extension.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4610013)

SF had an option on Sanchez for in 2010. Basically he agrees to a cut in pay for next year in exchange for the extra year on the contract.

[LorenzoL]

I think with the coaching and head office moves that the Blue Jays have made this past few weeks, it's a matter of when not if they will trade Halladay. They should trade him before Spring training in order to maximize whatever prospects they can get.

Also making the rumours round is that the Blue Jays are thinking of trading V. Wells for M. Bradley. As much as I'm a big supporter of getting rid of Well's ridiculous contract, I don't want Bradley anywhere near our young locker room. He's not going to be a good mix for the clubhouse.

[MrX]

The Cubs have said it's not true.

The Jays still would have been on the hook for 43 million of Wells contract

[chowderhead]

In probably one of the least surprising stories of the year, Tim Lincecum:

http://i37.tinypic.com/novoz5.jpg

busted for pot (http://www.columbian.com/article/20091105/NEWS02/711069987)

[Aphex Twin]

The Giants need to release Lincecum immediately to make a statement to the rest of their team that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated!

[cardsfan111]

The Angels have resigned Bobby Abreu for 2 years, $19 million (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4626679)

The Angels are coming off a year in which Abreu was a huge bargain. His one-year contract he signed last offseason was for just $5 million.

[Drexl]

I always knew Lincecum had great stuff.

[Deftones]

so how long will lincecum get suspended for? looks like 15 to 30 day suspension is possible.

[Quack]

He's been hanging out with this guy too much....

http://photobucket.com/albums/y261/jeanette42/dazed/dazed2.jpg

[cardsfan111]

The Red Sox acquire Marlins OF Jeremy Hermida (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4627147)

I don't have the info on hand, but something tells me Hermida may be up for arbitration. Otherwise, if you're the Marlins, why trade a 25 year old guy who holds a lot of potential?

[geicos27]

The Red Sox acquire Marlins OF Jeremy Hermida (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4627147)

I don't have the info on hand, but something tells me Hermida may be up for arbitration. Otherwise, if you're the Marlins, why trade a 25 year old guy who holds a lot of potential?

As a Marlins fan, I'm glad Hermida is gone. He is terrible defensively, doesn't hit well, has rarely ever come through in the clutch, never hits with men on, I could go on and on. The worst part is he makes some of the dumbest decisions you will ever see on a baseball field. Good riddance.

[cardsfan111]

As a Marlins fan, I'm glad Hermida is gone. He is terrible defensively, doesn't hit well, has rarely ever come through in the clutch, never hits with men on, I could go on and on. The worst part is he makes some of the dumbest decisions you will ever see on a baseball field. Good riddance.

I won't dispute what you're saying since you've obviously seen more of him up close than I have. Funny though, that the article I linked to highlights Hermida being sixth among qualifying NL outfielders in fielding percentage. Probably points to how overrated that stat is for OFs.

[RayChuang]

I think it will be VERY interesting to see if the Phillies decide to beef up their pitching staff for 2010. In the end, that team needs more front-line pitching beyond Lee, Hamels and Happ and definitely need better long relief and short relief pitching.

[geicos27]

I won't dispute what you're saying since you've obviously seen more of him up close than I have. Funny though, that the article I linked to highlights Hermida being sixth among qualifying NL outfielders in fielding percentage. Probably points to how overrated that stat is for OFs.

He has improved slightly, in '06 he had 8 errors in '07 he had 9 and in '08 he had 5. This year he only had 1, but he still misplays balls, has no range, and while he has a decent arm, he has little accuracy. He was also always replaced late in games defensively this year. So yeah, I'd say that stats misleading.

[VinVega]

The Red Sox acquire Marlins OF Jeremy Hermida (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4627147)

I don't have the info on hand, but something tells me Hermida may be up for arbitration. Otherwise, if you're the Marlins, why trade a 25 year old guy who holds a lot of potential?
I'm guessing he is insurance in case they lose Bay and don't sign Holiday for LF. This is another victim of the salary structure of teams. The Marlins couldn't take the chance on paying Hermida the increase in salary he was bound to get in arbitration because of the risk of him being a bust. The Red Sox can take that risk. If Hermida blows for the Sox, they'll go out and trade for or sign somebody else and eat the mistake.

[BravesMG]

David Samson, one of the owners of the Marlins, was on the radio yesterday and basically said what VinVega noted even though he wasn't speaking about Hermida specifically. Their salary structure doesn't allow for risky young players and their structure is built on trading those guys for cheap talent.

Reading between the lines, he also said that there was a very low chance of both Cantu and Uggla returning and it sounded like almost no shot of resigning Nick Johnson.

[MrX]

Twins trade Carlos Gomez to the Brewers for J.J. Hardy

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/69379917.html

Where ever he is, Hawk Harrelson is weeping about this.

[starman9000]

I like it. :)

I could see Gomez turning it around, but he wasn't fitting in right here. If the Brewers can send him down to get a full year in the minors he could improve, he wasn't learning how to hit on the bench here.

[bunkaroo]

Rumors were true - White Sox sent Chris Getz and Josh Fields to KC for Mark Teahen.

I do not like that move at all. Getz had a great rookie year and was awesome on stolen bases - something the Sox have been sorely lacking in. Add to that the possibility of Podsednik not coming back, and we just gave up are two biggest speed threats.

I don't find anything overly impressive about Teahen either.

[Deftones]

Dbacks pick up Webb's option. I can honestly say, as a Dback fan, I'm surprised. He's not coming back in 2011, so they must want to try to get one last run out of he and Haren.

[Osiris3657]

The Astros will probably have a quiet offseason. It's tough watching the organization struggle :(

[MrX]

Rumors were true - White Sox sent Chris Getz and Josh Fields to KC for Mark Teahen.

I do not like that move at all. Getz had a great rookie year and was awesome on stolen bases - something the Sox have been sorely lacking in. Add to that the possibility of Podsednik not coming back, and we just gave up are two biggest speed threats.

I don't find anything overly impressive about Teahen either.

The salary standpoint is the only reason I don't like it. Player wise it's a wash. Teahen's nothing great, but neither are Getz or Fields. Getz had the lowest OPS out of all the Sox everyday players and Fields hasn't been done anything since 07.

[VinVega]

I like it. :)

I could see Gomez turning it around, but he wasn't fitting in right here. If the Brewers can send him down to get a full year in the minors he could improve, he wasn't learning how to hit on the bench here.
I agree. Hardy is an upgrade at SS. Good trade for your Twinkies starman. :up:

[CRM114]

Phillies shockingly pick up Cliff Lee's $9 million option. They also say goodbye to Brett Myers.

Would have been nice to have last year's Brett Myers pitching in the series this year.

[CRM114]

I think it will be VERY interesting to see if the Phillies decide to beef up their pitching staff for 2010. In the end, that team needs more front-line pitching beyond Lee, Hamels and Happ and definitely need better long relief and short relief pitching.

Phils rotation in last year's series was Hamels, Myers, Moyer, and Blanton. The difference this year was Hamels' dropoff. With Lee, on paper, they were better this year.

[cardsfan111]

Manny Ramirez exercised his player option and will be paid $20 million next season by the Dodgers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4631051)

No doubt the Dodgers saw this coming. However, I'm sure they're gritting their teeth at the large payment being made to a guy who hit .290 with 19 HR while missing 50+ games last year.

[mgbfan]

Gomez can now swing wildly at pitches a foot out of the strike zone in the NL. I'm iffy on Hardy (anyone who drops off so suddenly and without explanation in today's game gets an eyebrow-raise), but Gomez is awful, so good trade for the Twins.

[starman9000]

I agree. Hardy is an upgrade at SS. Good trade for your Twinkies starman. :up:

I hope it works out, typical Twins style trade though and it seems like lately they never pan out. Yeah, mgb, watching Gomez attempt to bat was brutal, I think this is the best chance for him.

I see the Philies declined Feliz's option. I don't know if my earlier Beltre speculation will hold up, but looks like they want to solidify that last missing stick in their infield. I wonder if they'll be as aggressive as they were with Ibanez?

[VinVega]

I hope it works out, typical Twins style trade though and it seems like lately they never pan out. Yeah, mgb, watching Gomez attempt to bat was brutal, I think this is the best chance for him.

I see the Philies declined Feliz's option. I don't know if my earlier Beltre speculation will hold up, but looks like they want to solidify that last missing stick in their infield. I wonder if they'll be as aggressive as they were with Ibanez?
Phillies have some options at 3B. Adrian Belt-ROID is an option, so is Chone Figgins. One thing they have plenty of is pop. Maybe some more speed could help? Generally, you want pop at 3B, but since you have it in Utley at 2B, maybe you could get away with it at 3B if you're the Phillies. They do have a nice combo with Rollins and the Flyin' Hawaiian at the top, so it's a tough call.

[VinVega]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/2010-mlb-free-a.html

2010 MLB Free Agents
By Tim Dierkes [December 18, 2008 at 12:53pm CST]

2010 MLB free agents - MLBTR's up-to-date list is below. These are players who are eligible for free agency after the 2009 season. The player's 2010 age is in parentheses.

Updated 11-9-09

Catchers
Eliezer Alfonzo (31)
Brad Ausmus (41)
Paul Bako (38)
Rod Barajas (34) - Type B
Josh Bard (32)
Michael Barrett (33)
Henry Blanco (38)
Ramon Castro (34)
Chris Coste (37)
Sal Fasano (38)
Toby Hall (34)
Michel Hernandez (31)
Ramon Hernandez (34) - $8.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout - Type B
Jason Kendall (36) - Type B
Jason LaRue (36)
Victor Martinez (31) - $7.7MM club option with a $250K buyout - Type A
Chad Moeller (35)
Bengie Molina (35) - Type A
Jose Molina (35)
Miguel Olivo (31) - Type B
Mike Redmond (39)
Ivan Rodriguez (38) - Type B
Brian Schneider (33)
Yorvit Torrealba (31) - Type B
Matt Treanor (34)
Javier Valentin (34)
Jason Varitek (38) - $5MM club/$3MM player option plus incentives - Type B
Vance Wilson (37)
Gregg Zaun (39) - $2MM club option with a $500K buyout; Zaun can void option

First basemen
Rich Aurilia (38)
Jeff Bailey (31)
Wilson Betemit (28)
Hank Blalock (29)
Russell Branyan (34)
Miguel Cairo (36)
Frank Catalanotto (36)
Tony Clark (38)
Carlos Delgado (38) - Type B
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Ross Gload (34)
Eric Hinske (32)
Nick Johnson (31) - Type B
Adam LaRoche (30) - Type B
Doug Mientkiewicz (36)
Kevin Millar (38)
Fernando Tatis (35) - Type B
Chad Tracy (30)
Daryle Ward (35)
Dmitri Young (36)

Second basemen
Ronnie Belliard (35) - Type B
Jamey Carroll (36)
Alex Cora (34)
Craig Counsell (39)
Mark DeRosa (35) - Type B
Nick Green (31)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34) - Type B
Orlando Hudson (32) - Type A
Adam Kennedy (34)
Felipe Lopez (30) - Type B
Mark Loretta (38)
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Placido Polanco (34) - Type A
Luis Rodriguez (30)
Juan Uribe (31)

Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera (35) - Type A, can't be offered arbitration
Juan Castro (38)
Alex Cora (34)
Craig Counsell (39)
Bobby Crosby (30)
Adam Everett (33)
Chris Gomez (39)
Alex Gonzalez (32)
Nick Green (31)
Khalil Greene (30)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34) - Type B
John McDonald (35)
Luis Rodriguez (30)
Marco Scutaro (34) - Type A
Miguel Tejada (36) - Type A
Omar Vizquel (43)
Jack Wilson (32) - $8.4MM club option with a $600K buyout

Third basemen
Rich Aurilia (38)
Brian Barden (29)
Adrian Beltre (31) - Type B
Wilson Betemit (28)
Aaron Boone (37)
Craig Counsell (39)
Joe Crede (32)
Bobby Crosby (30)
Mark DeRosa (35) - Type B
Pedro Feliz (35)
Chone Figgins (32) - Type B
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Troy Glaus (33) - Type B
Nick Green (31)
Adam Kennedy (34)
Mike Lamb (34)
Mark Loretta (38)
Melvin Mora (38) - Type B
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Robb Quinlan (33)
Miguel Tejada (36) - Type A
Juan Uribe (31)

Left fielders
Garret Anderson (38) - Type B
Marlon Anderson (36)
Jason Bay (31) - Type A
Emil Brown (35)
Marlon Byrd (32) - Type B
Carl Crawford (28) - $10MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout - Type B
Johnny Damon (36) - Type A
David Dellucci (36)
Cliff Floyd (37)
Joey Gathright (28)
Matt Holliday (30) - Type A
Reed Johnson (33)
Greg Norton (37)
Wily Mo Pena (28)
Manny Ramirez (38) - $20MM player option - Type A
Dave Roberts (38)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Fernando Tatis (35) - Type B
Marcus Thames (33)
Randy Winn (36) - Type B

Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32) - Type B
Mike Cameron (37) - Type B
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30)
Darin Erstad (36)
Jeff Fiorentino (27)
Ryan Freel (34)
Joey Gathright (28)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34) - Type B
Reed Johnson (33)
Andruw Jones (33)
Corey Patterson (30)
Scott Podsednik (34)
DeWayne Wise (32)

Right fielders
Jermaine Dye (36) - Type A
Brian Giles (39) - Type B
Vladimir Guerrero (35) - Type A
Joey Gathright (28)
Eric Hinske (32)
Geoff Jenkins (35)
Austin Kearns (30)
Jason Michaels (34)
Xavier Nady (31) - Type B
Randy Winn (36) - Type B

Designated hitters
Hank Blalock (29)
Jason Giambi (39)
Ken Griffey Jr. (40)
Vladimir Guerrero (35) - Type A
Aubrey Huff (33) - Type B
Hideki Matsui (36) - Type B
Gary Sheffield (41)
Matt Stairs (42)
Mike Sweeney (36)
Jim Thome (39)

Starting pitchers
Brandon Backe (32)
Cha Seung Baek (30)
Miguel Batista (39)
Erik Bedard (31) - Type B
Kris Benson (34)
Paul Byrd (39)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Chris Capuano (31)
Aroldis Chapman (22)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34) - Type B
Justin Duchscherer (32) - Type B
Adam Eaton (32)
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Jon Garland (30) - Type B
Tom Glavine (44)
Mike Hampton (37)
Rich Harden (28) - Type B
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Rich Hill (30)
Shawn Hill (29)
Tim Hudson (34) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46) - Type B
John Lackey (31) - Type A
Braden Looper (35) - $6.5MM mutual option with possible buyout - Type B
Rodrigo Lopez (34)
Noah Lowry (29)
Jason Marquis (31) - Type B
Pedro Martinez (38)
Eric Milton (34)
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) - Type B
Carl Pavano (34) - Type B
Brad Penny (32)
Odalis Perez (33)
Andy Pettitte (38) - Type B
Joel Pineiro (31) - Type B
Sidney Ponson (33)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
Ben Sheets (31)
John Smoltz (43)
Brad Thompson (28)
Brett Tomko (37)
Tim Wakefield (43) - perpetual $4MM club option - Type B
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Kip Wells (33)
Randy Wolf (33) - Type A

Closers
Mike Gonzalez (32) - Type A
Kevin Gregg (32) - Type A
Fernando Rodney (33) - Type B
Rafael Soriano (30) - Type A
Jose Valverde (32) - Type A
Billy Wagner (38) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout (Red Sox agreed not to exercise) - Type A

Right-handed relievers
Luis Ayala (32)
Danys Baez (32)
Joaquin Benoit (32)
Rafael Betancourt (35) - $5.4MM club option - Type A
Chad Bradford (35)
Doug Brocail (43) - Type B
Kiko Calero (35) - Type B
Buddy Carlyle (32)
Chad Cordero (28)
Elmer Dessens (38)
R.A. Dickey (35)
Brendan Donnelly (38)
Octavio Dotel (36) - Type A
Kelvim Escobar (33)
Eric Gagne (34)
Geoff Geary (33)
Dan Giese (33)
Edgar Gonzalez (27)
Tom Gordon (42)
Jason Grilli (33)
LaTroy Hawkins (37) - Type A
Matt Herges (40)
Bob Howry (36) - Type B
Jason Isringhausen (37)
Jorge Julio (31)
Masahide Kobayashi (36)
Shane Loux (30)
Brandon Lyon (30) - Type B
Gary Majewski (30)
Guillermo Mota (36) - Type B
Joe Nelson (35)
Chan Ho Park (37) - Type B
Tomo Ohka (34)
Tony Pena Jr. (29)
Joel Peralta (34)
Troy Percival (40)
J.J. Putz (33)
Juan Rincon (31)
Takashi Saito (40)
Duaner Sanchez (30)
Rudy Seanez (41)
Justin Speier (36)
Russ Springer (41) - Type B
Julian Tavarez (37)
Brad Thompson (28)
Luis Vizcaino (35)
David Weathers (40) - Type B
Jeff Weaver (33)
Jamey Wright (35)
Yasuhiko Yabuta (37)
Tyler Yates (32)

Left-handed relievers
Joe Beimel (32) - Type B
Bruce Chen (33)
Alan Embree (40)
Scott Eyre (38) - Type B
Casey Fossum (32)
John Grabow (31) - Type A
Eddie Guardado (39)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Ron Mahay (39)
Will Ohman (31) - Type B
Darren Oliver (39) - Type A
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Glendon Rusch (35)
Scott Schoeneweis (36)
Brian Shouse (41) - $1.9MM club option with a $200K buyout - Type B
Ken Takahashi (41)
Jack Taschner (32)
Ron Villone (40)
Jamie Walker (38)

[Goat3001]

Thanks for the list, Vin.

I look forward to the Yankees signing Matt Holiday, Jason Bay, Vlad Guerrerro and Jermaine Dye. I also look forward to them signing Carl Pavano... and burying him so deep in A ball that he begs to get traded to the Mets. ;)

[cardsfan111]

AL Gold Glove winners announced today (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091110&content_id=7645222&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)


C: Joe Mauer, Twins
1B: Mark Teixeira, Yankees
2B: Placido Polanco, Tigers
3B: Evan Longoria, Rays
SS: Derek Jeter, Yankees
OF: Torii Hunter, Angels
OF: Adam Jones, Orioles
OF: Ichiro Suzuki, Mariners
P: Mark Buehrle, White Sox


NL Winners to be announced tomorrow.

[Drexl]

I never liked how they spread these awards out, presumably to give baseball something in the news for as many days as possible. I wish they'd do an awards show like the NHL.

[Goat3001]

Chipper Jones got robbed.

[starman9000]

:lol:

[Jeremy517]

Chipper Jones got robbed.

He got a gold glove, but it was a special gold glove for being able to cover all nine positions at the same time.

[Goat3001]

He also got a Gold Glove for his excellent defensive play during his stint in the Negro League.

[VinVega]

So I heard MLB came back and said that they're not adding any more instant replay to the umpiring. That gets a :down: from me. This postseason was atrocious for umpiring and some of the biggest culprits were veteran umps.

[Deftones]

i think it was because the GMs voted and there wasn't a majority.

[CRM114]

Rumor on espn.com that Lowell to the Phillies talk is heating up again. Insider article so no text from me. :)

[cardsfan111]

NL Gold Glove winners announced (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091111&content_id=7652750&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)


P Adam Wainwright St. Louis
C Yadier Molina St. Louis
1B Adrian Gonzalez San Diego
2B Orlando Hudson Los Angeles
3B Ryan Zimmerman Washington
SS Jimmy Rollins Philadelphia
OF Michael Bourn Houston
OF Matt Kemp Los Angeles
OF Shane Victorino Philadelphia

[Goat3001]

Rumor on espn.com that Lowell to the Phillies talk is heating up again. Insider article so no text from me. :)

He's lost a step but I think it's a nice snag for Philadelphia. Assuming he'll bat right behind Werth makes that Phillies line up that even more dangerous. I know guys like Beltre and Figgins are out there but Beltre sucks and Figgins is a role player and the Phillies already have Victorino and J-Rol.

[starman9000]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2338/2007168142_b246a5a12f.jpg

"Ryan Zimmerman!!?!?!?! I give up."

[cardsfan111]

I don't know what the Gold Glove voters are thinking. I have no idea how Wainwright got the GG. I watched him pitch several times this season and while he defends his position well, I never thought he was great. In fact, the one guy on the staff I was always impressed with was Pineiro.

I think voters didn't know what to do since they couldn't give it to Maddux again this season. :shrug:

[starman9000]

Probably a sign that they didn't vote for him for Cy Young and felt bad about it.

[fumanstan]

:lol: @ Orlando Hudson winning a gold glove despite pretty much not playing at all the last 2 months of the year and in the playoffs.

Kemp :up:

[wirefan]

Never understood how the Gold Glove in the outfield is just blended together - 3CF's got Gold gloves in the NL? Why not just give out "infield" Gold Gloves? It is one per position and CF/LF/RF are different - it's absurd that the 3rd best player at one position should be able to get a gold glove.

Good to see Zimmerman get it at 3rd - that guy is just ridiculous and I think head and shoulders above any 3rd baseman in either league.

[wirefan]

Varitek exercised his option and will stay with the Red Sox for 3Mil... if you were listening carefully you could almost here Theo's groan when it happened. :)

[whotony]

Isn't Lowell 50 years old.
why would they go for him and not someone younger, better.

[Deftones]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2338/2007168142_b246a5a12f.jpg

"Ryan Zimmerman!!?!?!?! I give up."

rotfl

[Quake1028]

Tex and Jeet with the GG's :up:.

[VinVega]

Red Sox fans, if Lowell is in fact gone, what is the 3rd base/1st base situation for the team? Youk can only play one of those positions. Is 1B-man Lars Anderson a prospect bust? He's only 22 though. I'm sure the Sox were hoping he could factor into the 2010 plans.

[davidh777]

I don't know what the Gold Glove voters are thinking. I have no idea how Wainwright got the GG. I watched him pitch several times this season and while he defends his position well, I never thought he was great. In fact, the one guy on the staff I was always impressed with was Pineiro.

I think voters didn't know what to do since they couldn't give it to Maddux again this season. :shrug:

I still expect to see Maddux on that list :lol:

[Sorraffy]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2338/2007168142_b246a5a12f.jpg

"Ryan Zimmerman!!?!?!?! I give up."

I'm a Braves fan and I'm not at all surprised he didn't win. Compared to previous years his third base defense this year was, to say the least, atrocious. It always seemed like he was coming up with different ways to bobble the ball, have it bounce up and kick it, or throw wide of second or first ... and he was doing it often.

[davidh777]

Griffey signs for another year with the Mariners :thumbsup:

I miss the old days when there would be trades at the winter meetings.

[bootsy]

Griffey signs for another year with the Mariners :thumbsup:

I miss the old days when there would be trades at the winter meetings.

This is not the winter meetings. These are the GM meetings. The winter meetings are Dec. 7-10 in Indianapolis.

[LurkerDan]

Red Sox fans, if Lowell is in fact gone, what is the 3rd base/1st base situation for the team? Youk can only play one of those positions. Is 1B-man Lars Anderson a prospect bust? He's only 22 though. I'm sure the Sox were hoping he could factor into the 2010 plans.

Martinez could play 1st. Of course, that puts Varitek behind the plate.

[davidh777]

This is not the winter meetings. These are the GM meetings. The winter meetings are Dec. 7-10 in Indianapolis.

Ah, thanks. Still, those meetings aren't what they used to be either.

[starman9000]

AL Silver Sluggers:

1B M. Teixeira, Yankees 39 122 .292
2B Aaron Hill, Blue Jays 36 108 .286
3B Evan Longoria, Rays 33 113 .281
SS Derek Jeter, Yankees 18 66 .334
OF Jason Bay, Red Sox 36 119 .267
OF Torii Hunter, Angels 22 90 .299
OF Ichiro Suzuki, Mariners 11 46 .352
C Joe Mauer, Twins 28 96 .365
DH Adam Lind, Blue Jays 35 114 .305

NL:

1B A. Pujols, Cardinals 47 135 .327
2B Chase Utley, Phillies 31 93 .282
3B R. Zimmerman, Nats 33 106 .292
SS H. Ramirez, Marlins 24 106 .342
OF Ryan Braun, Brewers 32 114 .320
OF Andre Ethier, Dodgers 31 106 .272
OF Matt Kemp, Dodgers 26 101 .297
C Brian McCann, Braves 21 94 .281
P C. Zambrano, Cubs 4 11 .217

[Deftones]

how at the Silver Slugger awards determined? I can name about five or six different players who had more HRs and/or RBI than the player that won it.

[King Felix]

how at the Silver Slugger awards determined? I can name about five or six different players who had more HRs and/or RBI than the player that won it.

Countless players had more hrs than ICHIRO but did any of them come close to ICHIRO's .352 BA?

Torii shouldnt have got it, only played in 119 games.

[starman9000]

how at the Silver Slugger awards determined? I can name about five or six different players who had more HRs and/or RBI than the player that won it.

It's voted on, just like the Golden Gloves, it tends to be better though as the stats are a little more easy to pick from.

I agree Torrii shouldn't have gotten it (unfortunately due to his injury). There weren't exactly a lot of slam dunk standouts in the outfield though in the AL.

[cardsfan111]

One nice thing about the Silver Sluggers, I believe, is they actually vote on a LF, CF & RF. At least I think that's correct based on the results.

[LurkerDan]

Managers and coaches vote on Silver Slugger awards.

[Deftones]

what specificially are they looking for in a silver slugger? to me, slugger denotes a guy that hits with power and drives in runs. i'm sure not everyone's definition is the same.

[Goat3001]

what specificially are they looking for in a silver slugger? to me, slugger denotes a guy that hits with power and drives in runs. i'm sure not everyone's definition is the same.

I agree that not everyones definition will be the same but I think it's simply the best offensive player at each position. Not necessarily the best slugger ("Silver Hitter" just doesn't have the same ring to it, I guess).

[Goat3001]

Red Sox fans, if Lowell is in fact gone, what is the 3rd base/1st base situation for the team? Youk can only play one of those positions. Is 1B-man Lars Anderson a prospect bust? He's only 22 though. I'm sure the Sox were hoping he could factor into the 2010 plans.

I can think of a few scenarios:

1st would be what they did this season, they can start V-Mart and Youk everyday and platoon Lowell and Tek around. Dropping Ortiz would allow them to open up the DH for Lowell... but dropping Ortiz over Lowell doesn't make any sense.

If Lowell is gone, they can have Tek as everyday catcher next season and push hard for Mauer in 2011 and use Anderson as a trade chip. Or they can have V-Mart move to catcher after next season and bring Lars Anderson into the fold. I'm guessing they aren't that high on Anderson as it is since they were pushing so hard to get Tex last year.

I think the Red Sox are best off dropping both Lowell and Ortiz and going younger. Re-sign Jason Bay or sign Holliday (although I'd rather have Bay). Free up some $$$ by losing Lowell and Ortiz, go a little cheaper and make a splash in free agency next season when a lot of talent will be available.

[FantasticVSDoom]

Anderson isn't the answer yet, and not sure he is ever going to be... He played pretty badly this past season so he clearly isn't ready. I don't really like the contract that Bay is going to get because I just don't think he's worth what the Sox are going to give him, but they don't have much of a choice right now. I think in all likely hood they will push for some trade for Gonzalez especially now that Hoyer is the Padres GM and knows the Sox system. Not sure if it will happen, but probably what makes the most sense.

[chrisih8u]

Anderson isn't the answer yet, and not sure he is ever going to be... He played pretty badly this past season so he clearly isn't ready. I don't really like the contract that Bay is going to get because I just don't think he's worth what the Sox are going to give him, but they don't have much of a choice right now. I think in all likely hood they will push for some trade for Gonzalez especially now that Hoyer is the Padres GM and knows the Sox system. Not sure if it will happen, but probably what makes the most sense.

I definitely think Theo is going to try to make a huge trade. There have been reports linking them to trade talks for Halliday, Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, and Felix Hernandez. They might not get any of those players but it appears that Theo is willing to trade a bunch of prospects for the right player. And I wouldnt be unhappy if the Sox thought about the possibility of maybe thinking about trading Papelbon in the right deal.

[Jobronie]

And I wouldnt be unhappy if the Sox thought about the possibility of maybe thinking about trading Papelbon in the right deal.Preaching to the choir, so long as they can get value (I've felt this way long before that Sunday afternoon; he made too many games way more interesting than they should have been this summer). Problem is, you can't move him to any of the smaller market teams like you could Bard as he's due that ton of money in arb again this year.

If Wagner's recent "statement" about accepting arb is legit (not that I necessarily believe it is), it wouldn't be horrible heading into the season with Wagner and Bard fighting it out to close for one year.

[LurkerDan]

I agree that not everyones definition will be the same but I think it's simply the best offensive player at each position. Not necessarily the best slugger ("Silver Hitter" just doesn't have the same ring to it, I guess).

That's always been my understanding.

[davidh777]

:shrug: I kind of like looking at overall offensive performance compared to just power numbers--makes it seem more like a real lineup instead of a slow-pitch softball league. Disclaimer: I'm an Ichiro fan.

[cardsfan111]

Andrew Bailey wins the AL ROY

Chris Coghlan wins the NL ROY.

Edit to add link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4660425).

[wirefan]

Good to see Coghlan win it - I though the writers were going to steal it from him and hand it to Happ. I would like to know who left Coghlan off the ROY ballot completely.

Hanson and Happ had nearly identical stats as starters (actually Hanson had one more win as a starter, had a better ERA, a better WHIP and more strikeouts). While you should factor in Happ's bullpen work, he was 2-0 and threw 20 innings - is that really the reason he gets nearly 3X the total votes (or points)?

[wildcatlh]

Good to see Coghlan win it - I though the writers were going to steal it from him and hand it to Happ. I would like to know who left Coghlan off the ROY ballot completely.

Hanson and Happ had nearly identical stats as starters (actually Hanson had one more win as a starter, had a better ERA, a better WHIP and more strikeouts). While you should factor in Happ's bullpen work, he was 2-0 and threw 20 innings - is that really the reason he gets nearly 3X the total votes (or points)?

Hanson's slightly better stats had a whole lot to do with the stadiums they pitched most of their games in, wouldn't you think?

[wirefan]

^No.... not enough for a near 3X vote difference. Hanson had 11 wins, Happ 10 wins (as a starter). Hanson also had 4 no decisions in games where he gave up 1 or 0 runs (meaning with just a bit more run support he easily could have finished with 15 wins). The voting should have been very close between the two. You can argue ERA, sure, but wins and strikeouts being park dependent?

I have no problems with Happ finishing 2nd, but I don't understand the discrepancy in vote totals. 2nd and 3rd should have been a much closer race than 1st vs 2nd in the voting.

Happ started getting hyped when he started 7-0; 3 wins coming against the Nats (2 in relief), 1 against the NYM, 1 against PIT, 1 against SD - hardly murderers' row. And he finished 5-4. Don't get me wrong he's a good starter, but I think people got zoned in on the 7-0 start.

[cardsfan111]

And if you really wanted to split hairs, Hanson had to face the explosive Phillies offense multiple times (and they beat him up pretty good), while Happ pitched 19+ innings against a Braves offense that was no where near as potent.



Nice article (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091115&content_id=7669422&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) on Coghlan, beginning with a note that his father was killed just before his 16th birthday. Makes me a little more happy for the young man. :up:

[starman9000]

New Twins uniforms for next year:


As has been pointed out, the Nats alternates:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWEqP0QKI/AAAAAAAAAUM/iK9PLfEGNmM/s1600/pMLB2-6887856dt.jpg
Alternate for Saturdays, I like this one:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWG0doTuI/AAAAAAAAAUU/962DP8ED03k/s1600/pMLB2-6887869dt.jpg


I don't mind the two above, but am not a big fan of the others (not terrible, but not better than the currents, and please God stop it with this sleeveless ones).

[davidh777]

Andrew Bailey wins the AL ROY

Chris Coghlan wins the NL ROY.

Edit to add link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4660425).

Clearly I don't keep up with the game like I used to--I have no idea who either of these guys are. :lol: I know JA Happ at least...

[davidh777]

Marines extend SS Jack Wilson for 2 years, $10M

[starman9000]

Greinke got the AL Cy Young. I'm a little surprised it was such a blowout, but I think he deserved the win.

I'm surprised Verlander got a first place vote and CC didn't.

[fumanstan]

Wow, for once number of wins didn't win out.

[Drexl]

My pick was Hernandez, but Greinke is deserving.

[cardsfan111]

Happy for Greinke and glad the Royals fans have something to enjoy. :)

[Spicollidriver1]

New Twins uniforms for next year:


As has been pointed out, the Nats alternates:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWEqP0QKI/AAAAAAAAAUM/iK9PLfEGNmM/s1600/pMLB2-6887856dt.jpg
Alternate for Saturdays, I like this one:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWG0doTuI/AAAAAAAAAUU/962DP8ED03k/s1600/pMLB2-6887869dt.jpg


I don't mind the two above, but am not a big fan of the others (not terrible, but not better than the currents, and please God stop it with this sleeveless ones).

The players like the sleeveless ones and it's the starting pitcher that chooses the uniforms except when there is a reason to where a certain one ie armed forces days.

[wirefan]

My pick was Hernandez, but Greinke is deserving.

+1

Greinke was great, but I don't think people realize how good Hernandez was. If you look at the road ERA's (Hernandez was sub 2), and who they pitched against, I don't think the ERA differences were that significant.

Hernandez pitched against the top 3 AL offenses 7 times (LAA 4 , Bos 1, NY 1), Greinke 3 times (LAA2, Bos 1, NY 0). Nearly half of Greinke's innings (over 100) were against CLE/DET/CHI. It could have gone either way, but I'm surprised it was a landslide

I don't know how the hell Verlander got a first place vote (surprise, surprise it was from a writer in Michigan!) and finished higher than 5th. How does Verlander finish higher than someone who has the same # of wins, a slightly better ERA, doesn't pitch in Yellowstone park and against the AL central? Both Halladay (significantly better ERA) and Sabathia (same wins, marginally better ERA) should have finished ahead of Verlander. Verlander had an ERA over 4 on the road and an ERA of over 4 against teams not named CHI/CLE/KC.

[cardsfan111]

The players like the sleeveless ones and it's the starting pitcher that chooses the uniforms except when there is a reason to where a certain one ie armed forces days.

Is this just something the Twins do? I've never heard this before, though I've never really considered what determines the particular uniforms a team chooses to wear on a given day.

[B.A.]

New Twins uniforms for next year:


As has been pointed out, the Nats alternates:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWEqP0QKI/AAAAAAAAAUM/iK9PLfEGNmM/s1600/pMLB2-6887856dt.jpg
Alternate for Saturdays, I like this one:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eM7vBa7kLkM/SwGWG0doTuI/AAAAAAAAAUU/962DP8ED03k/s1600/pMLB2-6887869dt.jpg


I don't mind the two above, but am not a big fan of the others (not terrible, but not better than the currents, and please God stop it with this sleeveless ones).I like them, particularly the home.

[davidh777]

+1

Greinke was great, but I don't think people realize how good Hernandez was. If you look at the road ERA's (Hernandez was sub 2), and who they pitched against, I don't think the ERA differences were that significant.

Hernandez pitched against the top 3 AL offenses 7 times (LAA 4 , Bos 1, NY 1), Greinke 3 times (LAA2, Bos 1, NY 0). Nearly half of Greinke's innings (over 100) were against CLE/DET/CHI. It could have gone either way, but I'm surprised it was a landslide


I figured Greinke deserved it because he had better numbers across the board except for wins, which is tied to his team, but these are interesting numbers, thanks.

[DaveWadding]

Is this just something the Twins do?

I know the Cubs do the same thing. That's why you often see the Cubs in their alternate blue on days Zambrano pitches, because he prefers those.

The D'Backs I also know don't. Alternate reds on Sunday and Tuesday and black on Saturday, but only at home.

Goes on a team by team basis I guess.

[Spicollidriver1]

I think its team by team because the league rules are pretty loose other then whites vs darks

[LurkerDan]

+1

Greinke was great, but I don't think people realize how good Hernandez was. If you look at the road ERA's (Hernandez was sub 2), and who they pitched against, I don't think the ERA differences were that significant.

Hernandez pitched against the top 3 AL offenses 7 times (LAA 4 , Bos 1, NY 1), Greinke 3 times (LAA2, Bos 1, NY 0). Nearly half of Greinke's innings (over 100) were against CLE/DET/CHI. It could have gone either way, but I'm surprised it was a landslide

Against the seven AL teams with at least 85 wins, Greinke was 7-3 with a 1.03 ERA. It's not like he performed poorly against the best teams. And neither Cleveland nor Detroit had crappy offenses, they were middle of the pack; not sure why you use them as examples.

[cardsfan111]

Mike Scioscia of the Angels and Jim Tracy of the Rockies win the 2009 Manager of the Year (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091115&content_id=7669428&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) awards.

[Goat3001]

^Well deserved for both.

Scioscia really deserved it after the season the Angels had. Mediorce bullpen and shady starting pitching and they were still able to finish 3rd in wins.

With that said, I probably would have voted for Ron Washington. That Texas team sucks and he made them contenders.

[starman9000]

Those would have been my picks. Actually am glad to see Girardi got some votes, he's been under appreciated IMO.

[Goat3001]

I know wirefan would disagree but I think his bullpen work was great. You have Rivera and they needed a bridge and in the beginning of the season it was supposed to be Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez, Brian Bruney and Damaso Marte. Two were incredibly ineffective and Marte was hurt early and out for pretty much the whole year. Bruney had flashes of how good he can be but inujuries kept him sidelined/ineffective for most of the season. The contingency plan all along seemed that if the pen struggles, they would move Joba to the 8th inning. Instead, Girardi was able to get Phil Coke, Phil Hughes, Alfredo Aceves and David Robertson regular work and all 4 of those guys were great out of the pen (well Phil Coke is somewhat of an exception since he did struggle at time) and none of them were supposed to be the bridge to Rivera in the beginning of the season.

But when you have the All-Star rotation/lineup that the Yankees have, it's hard to say that Girardi was the reason the Yankees won 103 games.

[Mordred]

Scioscia really deserved it after the season the Angels had. Mediorce bullpen and shady starting pitching and they were still able to finish 3rd in wins.

With that said, I probably would have voted for Ron Washington. That Texas team sucks and he made them contenders.I don't have a problem with Scioscia winning it. They had a great season and I think it was well deserved. While Texas greatly outperformed expectations I'm not sure how much of it is really due to Ron Washington. I think he did a pretty good job coaching all the young talent Texas has, but new pitching coach Mike Maddox and team president Nolan Ryan had as much if not more to do with their success than Washington. Ryan laid down the law during the offseason and kind of set the tone for how the staff was going to have to perform. The drastic improvement in team ERA this season shows where the credit really lies.

Washington has the same problem that Girardi does; he tends to overcoach/overuse the bullpen at times and it cost us a few games this year. I still think he's learning the job as well though. Lots of Rangers fans are sour on him, but I think he did a pretty good job. I'm just hoping the team builds on this success and can actually make the playoffs next year.

[chowderhead]

Wow, for once number of wins didn't win out.

http://i37.tinypic.com/novoz5.jpg

[wirefan]

I guess we'll see tomorrow if the voters looked at home/road splits and asked if Lincecum pitching in the Grand Canyon helped.

Away 5-5, 3.21 ERA, 10HR allowed
Home 10-2, 1.88 ERA, 0HR

He shouldn't finish higher than 3rd, but I doubt he will be out of the top2. I just hope Carpenter doesn't get robbed - he should be a near unanimous pick (but probably won't be)

[starman9000]

If Verlander got a vote based solely on Ks, I'm sure Timmy will too.

[chowderhead]

Brandon Webb had four more wins than Lincecum last year and didn't win ... that is all I meant by that. Hopefully Carpenter and Wainwright split the St. Louis/midwest votes and Lincecum sneaks in there again.

[wirefan]

If Verlander got a vote based solely on Ks, I'm sure Timmy will too.

Verlander got a vote from a MICHIGAN writer... just a homer pick. I would not give the idiot casting that vote the benefit of knowledge of any statistic whatsoever. I think his vote was solely based on geography.

I have no doubt the cute little guy who used to pickup dollars to practice his follow-through will get some 1st place votes, I would not even be surprised if he won... but he still doesn't deserve to finish higher than 3rd.

Jair Jurgens is closer to Lincecum (1 fewer win, .12 higher ERA) than Lincecum is to Carpenter (2 fewer wins, .24 higher ERA) and Jurgens also does not have the ridiculous home/road splits. I wonder if the vote totals between Lincecum and Jurgens will be closer then Lincecum/Carpenter? Heck look at Javier Vasquez vs Lincecum - same win total, marginally higher ERA, slightly fewer K's, slightly better WHIP and not a ridiculous home/road split.

[LurkerDan]

Lincecum isn't getting as much credit as he deserves. He was third in IP (behind Wainwright and Haren); to me that is significant (as compared to Carpenter). 1st in quality starts %age. 2nd in K/9 IP (behind Harden). 4th in WHIP (behind Haren, Carpenter and Vazquez). Leads by quite a bit in defense independent ERA. Had the lowest opponent OPS.

Yes, there is the Home Away split, but if you look closer, it isn't nearly as dramatic as it appears. The HRs seem to be the sole cause of it, because he still held opponents to a .212 avg (compared to .202 at home). His away WHIP was 1.09 (which is still freaking great) and his home WHIP was 1.02. Not a huge difference. He gave up 10 more ERs on the road than home, which not coincidentally was the number of HRs he gave up.

Was he a better pitcher at home? Sure. Was it as dramatic a difference as is being asserted here. No.

I'd vote for Carpenter, but a damn good argument could be made for Lincecum.

[cardsfan111]

^ What is "quality save %age, LurkerDan?

I'm guessing perhaps you meant "quality start" %age. If not, I'm not up on the latest statistical measures.

[LurkerDan]

whoops, yeah, quality starts %age.

[cardsfan111]

Verlander got a vote from a MICHIGAN writer... just a homer pick. I would not give the idiot casting that vote the benefit of knowledge of any statistic whatsoever. I think his vote was solely based on geography.


To the writers credit (and I'm not agreeing with his actual vote), the rest of his ballot had Grienke and Hernandez. If a voter really wanted to push for a hometown candidate, he'd vote for his guy and exclude the other chief competitors so as to lessen their point total.

I also respected the guy for at least writing about his choice (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2009/11/detroit_tigers_justin_verlande.html). Though his logic is a little flawed in my opinion. He indicates his vote for Verlander was based on his pitching like a horse down the stretch for the Tigers and winning his last several starts to push the Tigers into the single game playoff. If you ask me, that puts pitchers on non-playoff contenders at a disadvantage when it comes to the voting and that shouldn't be a factor.

[wirefan]

Linceum's ERA was 1.4runs higher per game on the road - that is substantial and it is dramatic. The innings pitched home and road were not the same (124 vs 101) so I'm not sure about simply counting runs and attributing it to HR's..

There is little argument that can be made for Linceum.... Carpenter has the 2nd best ERA in the NL in the last 10 years and has more wins than Lincecum. It should be a no brainer, but of course it won't be - because Carpenter doesn't have commercials and a backstory, a cool hairdo, a small frame and he didn't start the allstar game.

Lincecum had a great year, Carpenter was better - he was more consistent home/road, had more wins and had a better ERA. If everything else was equal you can look at strikeouts, but the object is to get outs and prevent runs, not to strike people out.

While Linceum had a "freaking great" WHIP of 1.09 on the road... Carpenter's road WHIP? 0.88! And why do you think Linceum led in opposing OPS? Maybe pitching in a park that doesn't give up HR's (and therefore suppresses the slugging % part of OPS) makes a difference? Well that's easy enough to check.... Carpenter's OPS is 70 points lower than Lincecum on the road... (And like most every other stat, Lincecum shows a massive home/road delta: OPS of .509 at home, .623 on the road)

Quality start % was 79% vs 81% and that is noise if you are talking about ~30-35 starts. It might just be a little impacted by pitching in the Grand Canyon as, I'm spitballing here, it might be easier to go 6 innings and give up 3 or fewer runs when you don't have those pesky HR's to worry about. A quick check will show that his quality start % was significantly different at home vs on the road and most of his nonquality starts came on the road (4 of 5).

[LurkerDan]

Let me guess, you're a Cardinals fan, right? :lol:

I already said I would give it to Carp, but there's a better case for Lincecum than you give credit to.

And I'm not a fan of either team.

[wirefan]

I also respected the guy for at least writing about his choice (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2009/11/detroit_tigers_justin_verlande.html). Though his logic is a little flawed in my opinion. He indicates his vote for Verlander was based on his pitching like a horse down the stretch for the Tigers and winning his last several starts to push the Tigers into the single game playoff. If you ask me, that puts pitchers on non-playoff contenders at a disadvantage when it comes to the voting and that shouldn't be a factor.

I agree with your take - it's not the most valuable pitcher award, it's simply the award for the best season. I hate how the MVP "logic" is creeping into the Cy Young (and in some cases people also use it to argue rookie of the year)

What's also funny is he probably got conditioned by the Tigers collapse and I think he overestimated a pitcher who went 3-2 with an ERA over 4 in his last 6 starts.

[wirefan]

Let me guess, you're a Cardinals fan, right? :lol:


:)

There's as good a case for Hernandez in the AL and he lost in a landslide.

Again Carpenter had the 2nd best ERA in the NL in the last 10 years and had more wins than Lincecum. This is not the classic trading off of ERA vs win totals (like last year with Webb vs Lincecum). And Lincecum had a worse ERA despite pitching in a more pitcher friendly home park.

To put things in perspective Wainwright is closer to Linceum in ERA than Linceum is to Carpenter and Wainwright has 4 more wins than Lincecum (and he will likely finish a distant 3rd somehow). That to me is the more interesting debate - Wainwright vs Linceum: 4 more wins vs an ERA 0.15 runs better? When you look at the ballparks they pitch in, I'd go with 4 more wins (and by the way Wainwright threw more innings than Lincecum and the strikeout difference is not that significant)

If anyone beats out Carpenter in my view it should be the 19 game winner, not the 15 game winner (when you consider they both have similar ERA's, IP's, and not too different strikeout totals).

[LurkerDan]

wins mean very little to me; they are way more a product of team. Lincecum pitched in 4 more games and 33 more innings than Carpenter, you never mention that; even if Carpenter was better inning for inning, the player who pitches more helps his team win more and is, therefore, more valuable. You scoff at the small difference in quality starts percentage, well, how about the fact that Lincecum had 4 more quality starts than Carpenter? In other words, in 4 more games, Lincecum gave his team a very good chance to win. Irrelevant? He gave up only 12 more hits in 33 more innings. Irrelevant? He struck out 77 more batters in 33 more innings. Irrelevant?

Again, I would have voted for Carpenter, but your refusal to remotely acknowledge that a good case can be made for Lincecum shows your homer status.

[davidh777]

I agree with your take - it's not the most valuable pitcher award, it's simply the award for the best season. I hate how the MVP "logic" is creeping into the Cy Young (and in some cases people also use it to argue rookie of the year).

I agree that it makes things tougher for the non-contenders, but a huge stretch run counts for something in my book. And pennant-race performance should enhance a rookie resume (I haven't looked up the official ROTY criteria though). :shrug:

[chrisih8u]

Mike Scioscia went crying to Selig about the postseason schedule. Selig says he's going to change it and schedule it himself.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/11/scioscia-selig-playoff-schedule-postseason.html

[wirefan]

wins mean very little to me; they are way more a product of team. Lincecum pitched in 4 more games and 33 more innings than Carpenter, you never mention that; even if Carpenter was better inning for inning, the player who pitches more helps his team win more and is, therefore, more valuable. You scoff at the small difference in quality starts percentage, well, how about the fact that Lincecum had 4 more quality starts than Carpenter? In other words, in 4 more games, Lincecum gave his team a very good chance to win. Irrelevant? He gave up only 12 more hits in 33 more innings. Irrelevant? He struck out 77 more batters in 33 more innings. Irrelevant?

Again, I would have voted for Carpenter, but your refusal to remotely acknowledge that a good case can be made for Lincecum shows your homer status.

First, I'm not a Cards fan.... I thought the smiley after your comment meant it was a joke based on the # of people who have recently assumed anytime someone makes an argument they are a homer of that player's team (ironically, like you just have:))

Second your case is based on secondary statistics and in some cases greatly influenced by the difference in home ballparks.

You don't talk hits without also talking walks. Some pitchers would rather take their chances letting a batter hit his way on, then go for a strikeout. You need to look at walks+hits (or WHIP), which Carpenter leads Linceum on - meaning despite your playing with the hit #'s fewer batters reached base per inning against Carpenter than Linececum.

Quality start % is bogus.... both had 6 "non-quality" starts. Sure Carpenter had 4 fewer starts, but with a 2.24 ERA, how many of those were going to be bad starts and let's take a look at the actual circumstances of the #'s

- A 2% difference is noise (take 2% of 34 starts and it means on average a difference of less than 1 start per year) and you neglect the fact that Lincecum's QS #'s are inflated by the park he pitches in. Take him out of SF and he had a lot more non-quality starts - that's not a prediction on my part - just look at his quality start % at home vs the road... any guesses on which one is better?

- Lost in your quality start # is context: Carpenter had 3 bad starts all year, 1 game where he gave up 7 runs, 1 game where he gave up 6 runs and 1 game where he gave up 4 runs ( over 8 innings). His other 3 non-quality starts? One where he left early due to an injury (0 runs in 3 IP), one game where he was coming back from that injury (0 runs in 5IP), and the last game of the year where he was tuning up for the playoffs (0 runs in 5 IP).

- Because of the beauty of the quality start stat, 1/2 of Carpenters's non-quality starts occurred in starts where he didn't give up a single run! That is why I choose to ignore it - it shows a lacks of understanding (and demonstrates how misleading the stat can be). Linceum had 5 games where he gave up 4 or more runs, Carpenter had 3 games like that - thanks to the magic of quality start %, it seems as though Linceum leads in this area.

Again the 2nd best NL ERA in a decade! A decade! and he has more wins... you quote the secondary stats as if Carpenter and Linceum had identical stats or Carpenter had better run support (he didn't unless you consider 0.01 runs significant), or Carpenter pitched in a friendly park that helped his #'s (when we know the exact opposite is the case). It'd be one thing if Carpenter's wins were coming thanks to better run support, but it's not plus he has a better ERA plus he pitches in a tougher park than Lincecum.

The vote will be close, but it shouldn't be.

[starman9000]

Mike Scioscia went crying to Selig about the postseason schedule. Selig says he's going to change it and schedule it himself.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/11/scioscia-selig-playoff-schedule-postseason.html

Good.

[Goat3001]

I also respected the guy for at least writing about his choice (http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2009/11/detroit_tigers_justin_verlande.html). Though his logic is a little flawed in my opinion. He indicates his vote for Verlander was based on his pitching like a horse down the stretch for the Tigers and winning his last several starts to push the Tigers into the single game playoff. If you ask me, that puts pitchers on non-playoff contenders at a disadvantage when it comes to the voting and that shouldn't be a factor.

It's interesting that he took a "Most Valuable Pitcher" stance instead of a "Best Pitcher" stance. I think it's ok to vote that way if you'd like. The MLB seems to open the book up for interpretation by letting the writers vote on the winners. But if you're going to go with an MVP vote how do you vote Verlander over Sabathia?

[B.A.]

Good.
The number of days off was ridiculous.

[dx23]

The number of days off was ridiculous.

And the fact that the entire season, including the playoffs and World Series took 9 months is absurd.

[LurkerDan]

You don't talk hits without also talking walks. Some pitchers would rather take their chances letting a batter hit his way on, then go for a strikeout. You need to look at walks+hits (or WHIP), which Carpenter leads Linceum on - meaning despite your playing with the hit #'s fewer batters reached base per inning against Carpenter than Linececum.

Quality start % is bogus.... both had 6 "non-quality" starts. Sure Carpenter had 4 fewer starts, but with a 2.24 ERA, how many of those were going to be bad starts and let's take a look at the actual circumstances of the #'s


Actually, while WHIP is a very useful stat (I posted it earlier in fact), it is a mistake to say that walks and hits are equal, and that there's no reason to look at them independently. Surely you know that giving up a walk is better than giving up a hit (hits can be singles to HRs, and can advance runners; walks are one base and only advance runners who are forced). Just as OBP is more important in OPS than SLG is, hits is more important than BB in the WHIP stat. Put it this way, take 2 pitchers, both with a whip of 1.00. Pitcher A gives up no walks at all, all of the WHIP is hits. Pitcher B gives up no hits at all, all of the WHIP is walks. Which pitcher will be likely to give up more runs?

Also, to speak in hypotheticals about what those extra starts of Carpenter would have been like is silly. This is an award about what the players did, not what they might have done. Carpenter has better stats in some respects, but you can't even acknowledge that the fact that Lincecum was a great pitcher (perhaps not as great, but great nonetheless) for a lot more innings is a stat in his favor.

Maybe you're not a homer, but you're sure not looking at this objectively.

[wildcatlh]

Looking at ERA+ and FIP (to take out any defense/park arguments) and not ERA, they're far closer than the ERA would suggest (pretty much even)...

Chris Carpenter: ERA+ of +183 (higher is better), FIP 2.78 (.272 BABIP against)
Tim Lincecum: ERA+ of +176, FIP 2.34 (.297 BABIP against)

[Goat3001]

And the fact that the entire season, including the playoffs and World Series took 9 months is absurd.

Well the regular season and playoffs was a total of 7 months. If you want to count ST then it's 8 months and it's only 9 months if you count pitchers and catchers, which is really just as long as basketball since preseason starts in October and playoffs run through June.

I think this is coming up now only because of the abnormality of this years playoffs. All the series seemed to be short. We only had two series go 6 games and there were no game 5/7 and we had 3 DS sweeps. So there was a lot of rest. Add that to the fact that the playoffs started late because of the WBC and ended in November. The playoffs started on 10/7 and were done by 11/4 (latest it would have ended is 11/5). Thats only 28 days and that's shorter than all the other sports. If they started on 10/1 and if we had a "normal" playoffs where there were a few elimination games and less sweeps then no one would be complaining.

But still it should be shorter and off days should only be for travel. The CS had a BS off day worked in that shouldn't be there.

[LurkerDan]

Looking at ERA+ and FIP (to take out any defense/park arguments) and not ERA, they're far closer than the ERA would suggest (pretty much even)...

Chris Carpenter: ERA+ of +183 (higher is better), FIP 2.78 (.272 BABIP against)
Tim Lincecum: ERA+ of +176, FIP 2.34 (.297 BABIP against)

Yep, Carpenter was better but not THAT much better (BTW, Lincecum's ERA+ this year was even better than last year's CY winning season).

Here's an article that states the case for the 3 players: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ted_keith/11/18/nl.cy.young/index.html?eref=sircrc

[wildcatlh]

Lincecum wins his second straight Cy Young award. No vote totals yet.

Edit: Top 3 vote totals. Very, very close. Looks like Wainwright and Carpenter might've split some first place votes, which allowed Lincecum to win.

Lincecum received 11 first-place votes, 12 seconds and nine thirds for 100 points in balloting released Thursday by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. Cardinals ace Chris Carpenter was next with 94 points and teammate Adam Wainwright finished third with 90 despite getting the most first-place votes with 12.

[starman9000]

It's an outrage! ;)

[Goat3001]

Looks like those St. Louis votes were split. Good for Lincecum. Maybe he didn't deserve it over Carp or Wainwright but he's been dominant the last two seasons and that's pretty awesome. With that said, I liked him better in Dazed and Confused.. but that's just me.

[chowderhead]

Looks like Carpenter and Wainwright DID split the vote. Sucks that the Bay Area sports writers both went with Carpenter. Good job Lincecum!

[wildcatlh]

Here's the vote totals. Who the hell gave Javier Vazquez a 2nd place vote? Interestingly, both the Vazquez and Haren votes were on two ballots Carpenter wasn't on (though he wouldn't have won if he'd gotten them)

Tim Lincecum: 11 1st place, 12 2nd place, 9 3rd place. Total: 100 points
Chris Carpenter: 9 1st place, 14 2nd place, 7 3rd place. Total: 94 points
Adam Wainwright: 12 1st place, 5 2nd place, 15 3rd place. Total: 90 points
Javier Vazquez: 1 2nd place. Total: 3 points
Dan Haren: 1 3rd place. Total: 1 point

[LurkerDan]

Honestly, I'd like to know why Wainwright got the most 1st place votes. He had a great season, but justifiably finished 3rd.

[Deftones]

too bad, because i thought Carpenter deserved it.

wonder if Lincecum is going to celebrate by sparking up a bowl. ;)

[JumpCutz]

Kind of surprised. Lincecum was 5-5 after the all-star break and 1-3 in September.

Anyway congrats Timmeh! :thumbsup:

[frenchy]

Congratulations, Timmy!

[wirefan]

Carpenter left off 2 ballots? Meaning 4th (or worst) pitcher in the NL this year?

OK...

[MrX]

Carpenter left off 2 ballots? Meaning 4th (or worst) pitcher in the NL this year?

OK...

Keith Law from ESPN was one of them

My NL Cy Young ballot was

1. Tim Lincecum

2. Javier Vazquez

3. Adam Wainwright

Lincecum was a no-brainer, and it's disappointing to see that a majority of voters on the award whiffed on the easiest part of the three-part question. Lincecum led the NL in FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) and WAR (Wins Above Replacement), both of which normalize a pitcher's stats to account for the help he received from his defense, and he led both categories by wide margins. He also led the NL in VORP, which adjusts for park but not for defense, by a narrow margin. I understand that many voters are uncomfortable with these advanced stats, but Lincecum also finished second in the NL in (unadjusted) ERA, but threw 36 more innings than the guy in front of him, Chris Carpenter.

Carpenter's innings total was the main reason he ended up off my ballot. He pitched extremely well when on the mound, but not well enough to close the value gap between him and the three pitchers I listed, each of whom threw at least 27 innings more than Carpenter. Both Carpenter and Wainwright received significant help from their defense, while neither Lincecum nor Vazquez could say the same.

As for Vazquez, he ranked ahead of Wainwright in the advanced metrics anyway, but I also gave him extra credit for pitching in the most difficult division in the NL, one in which he had to face two great offenses and only one patsy.

As for the win total of each pitcher: I ignored that, because, as I've said for years, it tells us nothing useful about how well the pitcher performed.

[Deftones]

most difficult division in the NL? rotfl

Law might want to check some stats sometime before making stupid statements like that.

[wildcatlh]

most difficult division in the NL? rotfl

Law might want to check some stats sometime before making stupid statements like that.

"The division where you have to face the best offense in the National League many times over"

better? :)

[cardsfan111]

Sheesh...first time I've tuned into the news today and I see this Cy Young news. Can't say I'm completely surprised. I told a friend that I expected Carpenter and Wainwright to receive a ton of first place votes, but that Lincecum would somehow end up with more 2nd place votes and win the award.

I'll refrain from saying that I'm outraged, considering it's just a baseball award, but it's ridiculous to see the voting results. I can probably dig up a quote on this forum where I've stated Keith Law is one of the biggest boneheads around. His ballot just cements that opinion. His entire justification can be summed up with his one sentence.

Lincecum was a no-brainer

Yes, Keith, it's obvious that your brain wasn't fully engaged when voting. :rolleyes:

What a traveshamockery!

[El Scorcho]

Kind of surprised. Lincecum was 5-5 after the all-star break and 1-3 in September.

Anyway congrats Timmeh! :thumbsup:

tough to win when your offense scores you 7 total runs in your 5 post-all-star-break losses

.. and you only give up 16

not to mention when your bullpen blows leads for you left and right

[wirefan]

Looking at ERA+ and FIP (to take out any defense/park arguments) and not ERA, they're far closer than the ERA would suggest (pretty much even)...

Chris Carpenter: ERA+ of +183 (higher is better), FIP 2.78 (.272 BABIP against)
Tim Lincecum: ERA+ of +176, FIP 2.34 (.297 BABIP against).

People are throwing around some of these sabremetric equations and misusing them. Sabremetrics is intended to predict FUTURE performance - for example if you look at a particularly good or bad year, it is meant to determine was it a flash in the pan or the beginning of a trend.

As an example if I applied some of the Sabremetrics to Lidge's 41/41 save year I could mistakenly conclude that it was not such as great a year as it seemed after all. But that would be entirely wrong - it is evaluating how likely it is if future seasons will be that good, not was it really as good as it seemed?

Or as another real simple example: Mariano Rivera generally has a BABIP below league average - is that really because he is a consistently "lucky" pitcher or has a great defense or plays in a large ballpark? Or I don't know he has late movement and tremendous control and batters just don't square up the ball as well?

And while FIP is short for fielding independent pitching, it is actually quite misleading - the only inputs that go into the calculation are HR, BB, HBP, K's, IP. (Notice that hits allowed are apparently not a predictor of pitching performance?)

The equation is somewhat absurd:
[(HR*13)+([BB+HBP-IBB]*3)-(K*2) ] / IP + 3.20

The intention of this statistic is to say if you just look at HR's, walks, BB, HBP and IP and assumed all of these things just happened randomly in a vacuum what would your ERA be if there were no other factors in play (like defense).

The obvious problems with this:
- HR's... kinda important what park you play in?
- Grand slam = 3run HR = 2run HR = solo HR
- Soloshot allowed in a 8-1 game is more significant than an RBI double in 3-2game (which wouldn't even factor in at all in FIP)
- Hits don't factor in at all in predicting ERA?
- BB is misleading... walking a runner to lead off an inning = pitching around Albert Pujols with a guy on 2nd = unintentionally walking a guy with 2 out and the pitcher up next. Not all walks are equally damaging
- Assumption is walks and HR's are more or less completely random
- Opponents... kinda important? (HR hitting team or a patient team that works walks hit the FIP a lot harder)
- A complete game with 4 runs allowed (but no walks/HR's) is actually better for FIP then a no hitter with a couple of walks?

Because of this you can kind of look at a single player's trend on this statistic from one year to the next (for the most part they are facing the same or similar teams, have the same pitching style, defense, home park), but it's hard to directly compare one pitcher to another with this as some are doing/suggesting - is just randomizing HR,BB,K's better than looking at actual ERA to compare 2 pitchers? The fact that it is called fielding independent pitching lead many to think it somehow subtracts out the impact of a good defense vs a bad defense... other than IP, the quality of the defense ironically has little impact on this metric.


ERA+ has a park correction factor.... but also has a myriad of problems... It is basically:

(League average ERA / ERA) * park correction factor *100

So we just assume the innings are magically equal between home and road? (there is only one park correction factor and that assumes a 50/50 split home and road). Specifically Lincecum threw 124IP at home and 100IP on the road so his ERA+ is actually overstated. There are also problems obviously with determining the actual park correction factor but that is way beyond this forum.

If you took his home and road ERA's and asssume it was split 50/50 like the ERA+ assumes (this is a bit crude).. his ERA+ goes from 176 to 171 (and "close" becomes less close)

[wirefan]

not to mention when your bullpen blows leads for you left and right

The Cards bullpen cost Carpenter 3 wins, Lincecum's bullpen "blowing leads left and right" cost him....4 wins?

Damn pesky facts getting in the way of a good story!

[Deftones]

"The division where you have to face the best offense in the National League many times over"

better? :)

who he faced a grand total of 3 times. you make it seem like he pitched against them 19 times or something. :lol:

[Setzer]

Mike Scioscia went crying to Selig about the postseason schedule. Selig says he's going to change it and schedule it himself.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/11/scioscia-selig-playoff-schedule-postseason.html

Good. I hated the schedule. There doesn't need to be 2 week breaks between series and 1-2 day breaks between games. It's ridiculous. Do they do it during the regular season? No.

[Setzer]

Bay rejected a four-year offer at "close to $60 million" to stay with the Boston Red Sox, SI.com reported Thursday.

Wow, how do you turn down 15 mil p/yr in this economy? Does he not want to stay in Boston?

[LurkerDan]

Bay rejected a four-year offer at "close to $60 million" to stay with the Boston Red Sox, SI.com reported Thursday.

Wow, how do you turn down 15 mil p/yr in this economy? Does he not want to stay in Boston?

How do you turn down 5 mil/yr in this economy? Should he have taken 3 years and 15 mil?

You turn that down if you think you can get more.

[Setzer]

How do you turn down 5 mil/yr in this economy? Should he have taken 3 years and 15 mil?

You turn that down if you think you can get more.

What? :lol:

Does he think he's in Teixeira/A-Rod company?

[LurkerDan]

What? :lol:

Does he think he's in Teixeira/A-Rod company?

I don't know what he thinks. But your post didn't indicate anything regarding his relative worth. I do think he may get as much if not more $, but he may not. I certainly don't find it surprising that he wanted to see what he would get offered on the open market.

[Goat3001]

As for Vazquez, he ranked ahead of Wainwright in the advanced metrics anyway, but I also gave him extra credit for pitching in the most difficult division in the NL, one in which he had to face two great offenses and only one patsy.

So who was the patsy... the Nationals or Mets?

[Goat3001]

Bay rejected a four-year offer at "close to $60 million" to stay with the Boston Red Sox, SI.com reported Thursday.

Wow, how do you turn down 15 mil p/yr in this economy? Does he not want to stay in Boston?

Abreu just signed for 2 years and $19 million, right? I think $15 mil a year is pretty fair for Bay.

I'm guessing he just wants to hit the open market and see if he can get the classic Yankees/Red Sox bidding war since the Yankees might be in the market for a left fielder too. I doubt he'll get much more than $15 mil a year though.

[wirefan]

To show the insanity:
Take 2 players on the same team (Vasquez and Jurgens).
- Jurgens had a lower ERA (~0.2 better)
- Jurgens had 25 quality starts (1 behind Lincecum), vasquez 22 (if you're into that stat)
- They both threw the ~same # of innings
- One was 14-10, one was 15-10
- Theoretically they have the same quality of defense behind them (being on the same team and all)
- Vasquez is nearly a run better on FIP (~0.9)... no that's not a typo

Who had the better year? Well.... clearly Vazquez is #2 on Law's ballot and Jurgens should be nowhere to be found..... I guess we are to believe somehow Jurgens benefited from pitching behind the ATL defense as opposed to Vasquez who pitched behind... the ATL defense? :confused: Is Vasquez the better overall pitcher and likely to be the better pitcher long term? Of course... but they had extremely similar years.

The difference? Strikeouts and walks. Law dresses it up as FIP and pseudo ERA, but the only reason FIP is different is because the strikeout and walks totals are different... It ignores the fact that Jurgen actually gave up fewer runs and represents Keith Law saying well he should have given up a lot more runs... but since the season has happened and is not modeled, we know in fact Jurgens did give up fewer runs. Basically Keith Law is voting based on how many runs he thinks the pitchers SHOULD have given up, as opposed to how many runs they DID give up. And this is not a case where Keith Law is trying to factor/normalize for pitchers pitching in 2 vastly different home parks or facing vastly different strength of opponents or two pitchers pitching on 2 vastly different defensive teams... we're talking teammates here (playing in that awesome NL East ;)).



More FIP ridiculousness
- Ricky Nolasco (5.06 ERA) had a better FIP then Jurgens (2.63 ERA)... Nolasco had the 9th best FIP in the entire NL!
- Jose Contreras(5.4 ERA) had a better FIP than Edwin Jackson (3.63 ERA)
- Carl Pavano (5.10ERA) had a better FIP than Mark Buerhle (3.8 ERA)
...and the best for last...
- Chad Gaudin(5.23 ERA in the NL) had a better FIP than both Matt Cain (2.63 ERA) and Randy Wolf (3.23 ERA)

It is utter insanity... it's one thing to use the statistic (as it was intended) to predict how performance may change in the future or who is more likely to be the better pitcher in the future(for scouting, trades, contract extensions, etc...), but it is insanity to substitute actual performance #'s with modeled performance for something that has already occurred. Again this is an arbitrary empirical model solely based on HR, walks & K's per IP (with HR's and K's given heavy weighting) which is trying to predict how many runs a pitcher should have given up. It is not actually measuring anything.

Thank you Keith Law for basing you're vote on pretend runs allowed as opposed to ACTUAL runs allowed. He is no doubt knowledgeable about statistics but obviously does not know how to apply them... He said he would have had Haren 4th (presumably Carpenter would have been 5th? maybe?)

[starman9000]

I like when he said the only argument against Lincecum was Wins.


I'm assuming he left Mauer completely off of his MVP ballot as well, for the same reasons he left Carpenter off (missed innings).

[mgbfan]

If he was an NL writer, I don't think he gets a vote for AL MVP. Could be wrong about that tough.

[starman9000]

Now I understand why he came off as such an ass on the radio this morning about his pick, the award is about him:


Controversy surrounding the exclusion of Rob Neyer and Keith Law in 2007

On December 5, 2007, the BBWAA voted to open its membership to Web-based writers employed on a full-time basis by "websites that are credentialed by MLB for post-season coverage."[9]. The initial group of 16 writers recommended for approval, on the basis of a BBWAA vote, included writers for CBSSports.com, ESPN, Fox Sports, Sports Illustrated and Yahoo. Best represented among the sites was ESPN, seven of whose writers were voted into the association: Jim Caple, Jerry Crasnick, Peter Gammons, Tim Kurkjian, Amy Nelson, Buster Olney and Jayson Stark. Notably missing from the list were ESPN writers Rob Neyer and Keith Law; subsequent reports on Internet message boards and Neyer's ESPN blog[10] identified Neyer and Law as the only two writers whose nominations were unsuccessful among the 18 considered. (Both Neyer and Law were admitted the following year.[11])

Neyer and Law were not considered individually. The new members were voted on as a slate of candidates. When asked by the BBWAA, ESPN officials said Law and Neyer did not regularly attend games as reporters and had no reason to be members. The BBWAA has refused to identify which ESPN officials they contacted, and both Neyer and Law have stated that the BBWAA did not directly contact them or their respective editors on this issue. The BBWAA said they would be considered for membership again if their positions changed. A post on the Biz of Baseball website included the names and badge numbers of all known BBWAA members, the most complete public listing of BBWAA members to date. It included the names of writers and editors who are known not to attend major league games with any regularity, calling into question why this criteria was cited as a reason to exclude Neyer and Law from the organization.

Neyer and Law are known for their in-depth analysis of baseball statistics -- particularly statistics like on-base percentage and slugging percentage, which have grown rapidly in prominence and general acceptance among baseball's fans, executives, reporters and broadcasters in the Internet era. As documented in Michael Lewis' bestseller Moneyball, the baseball establishment (notably scouts and reporters) were reluctant, and sometimes bitterly so, to accept changes in the means by which players and teams were being analyzed. The early part of Neyer's career was spent working with Bill James, whose writings are largely credited with fueling and guiding baseball's statistical evolution.

Both writers, especially Neyer, are known to have sharply criticized the BBWAA for many of its choices for major baseball awards, commonly suggesting[citation needed] that the voting was generally indicative of a failure to recognize value of these new statistics versus that of more "traditional" baseball statistics like batting average and RBI.

Upon release of the news that Neyer and Law were the two writers rejected by the BBWAA for membership, many commentators on baseball message boards (including those of ESPN[citation needed] and Baseball Think Factory) speculated that vindictiveness towards the writers, and bitterness over their bodies of work, were the deciding factors in their exclusion. Some decried the development as censorship on the part of the BBWAA.[citation needed]

While congratulating new members in a blog post, Neyer wrote that "personal grudges" were responsible for his "not making the cut." Neyer was more candid in a message posted on Baseball Think Factory, where he wrote, "I don't know exactly what went down and probably never will. According to BBWAA president Bob Dutton, my membership was rejected because I don't go to the ballpark often enough (not that anybody really knows how often I'm at ballpark). I believe -- based on some scraps of information I've got -- that was merely a convenient pretext for blackballing me, and today I would be a member if I'd been a bit more circumspect with my opinions over the years." [12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_Writers_Association_of_America#Awards_voting

[wirefan]

I like when he said the only argument against Lincecum was Wins.


I'm assuming he left Mauer completely off of his MVP ballot as well, for the same reasons he left Carpenter off (missed innings).

Well if you look at Mauer's "pitching independent hitting" he really was probably about a ~.290 hitter who just got lucky...sure his actual #'s were pretty good, but statistically they shouldn't have been as good as they were! ;)

Look at his BABIP it was .377 - way over the league average and that implies he was an extremely "lucky" hitter (I'm sure some folks who seem to keep quoting BABIP here will back me up on this). Also one of Law's favorite statistics (WAR - wins above replacement player) shows Ben Zobrist as the MVP (Mauer 2nd, Jeter 3rd)

Ladies and Gentlemen your 2009 AL MVP... Ben Zobrist... don't be fooled by the traditional #'s which show Mauer as the clear cut winner!
It really is a no brainer... I just pray for the day when people stop being a slave to traditional statistics when voting on these awards.

[nickdawgy]

So the Yankees are looking at Halladay now I heard.

[LorenzoL]

So the Yankees are looking at Halladay now I heard.
I'll be surprised if Halladay starts the season with the Jays.

The outlook for 2010 is bleak and what does the front office do, they decide to raise season ticket prices up to 56%. Nice way to stick it to the fans -ohbfrank-

[raven56706]

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[LorenzoL]

Blue Jays President/CEO Paul Beeston has confirmed that Halladay does not want to sign an extension with them. Cubs and Dodgers are the first teams (of many I'm assuming) that will be asking about him.

ESPN Insider
Roy Halladay apparently does not want to re-sign with the Toronto Blue Jays when his contract expires after the 2010 season.

"We would like to sign him, he is an original Blue Jay and we have never had a pitcher as good as him," club president Paul Beeston told the New York Post. "But he is not inclined to sign with us."

As a result, the New York Yankees can play the waiting game and possibly land Halladay.

The Chicago Cubs are one of the teams the Jays have asked about Halladay.

Carrie Muskat of MLB.com reports that the Jays are asking for some of the Cubs' top prospects, and the Cubs would be on the hook for Halladay's $15.75 million contract for next season. The Cubs are looking to dump Milton Bradley, but the volatile slugger apparently would not be part of any proposed deal.

Bob Nightengale of USA Today said via Twitter on Thursday that the Los Angeles Dodgers are jumping into the Halladay sweepstakes, and they might just have enough talent to spare to land the ace

http://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/5863343644

It will be really painful for Halladay to go to any other team besides the Blue Jays but after last season disaster orchestrated by Ricciardi, this is the only remaining option for the Blue Jays. Please make sure to get as many high rated prospects as possible, PLEASE.