Since politicians constantly talk in terms of investing in Americas future wouldn't it be prudent to have the Government start a program where Federal Student Loans for Degrees in Science, Engineering, and Education were granted at 0% interest?
Before you say that it just inspires people to go into those fields for the wrong reason realize that our current system inspires people in the technical fields to go into banking for the opposite reason. Graduate with a PhD in Mathematics and the only way to pay off your debt is to work on Wall St using your knowledge to find more complex ways to drain the economy for every last cent.
Taking the world lead back in these fields would pay off a hundredfold and would be a better use of funds than another century of TARPs and trade deficit debt management.
Venusian
10-09-09, 10:58 AM
I was talking to a girl recently who does marketing and she said the problem is that in our culture, the jobs that come with those degrees are not seen as cool. We need marketing to solve the problem. I guess it makes a little sense. Back in the '60s, the astronauts were seen as cool and American heroes. No one cares about them today.
Tommy Ceez
10-09-09, 11:09 AM
How much marketing can you do to combat 40+ years of Hollywood portraying the technical fields as uber-nerds?
Another legacy of the baby boomers...dismantle and denegrate everything that the 'Greatest' generation achieved and stood for
Remember how Hollywood showed scientists in the 50's?
Nausicaa
10-09-09, 11:44 AM
Not a bad idea. I also think immigration reform is important in this area. A lot of highly skilled and knowledgable people in these fields are leaving because of their often uncertain visa status. We can't afford this sort of thing in today's world.
Suprmallet
10-09-09, 11:46 AM
Remember how Hollywood showed scientists in the 50's?
As mad scientists whose unasked for probing into unknown depths often cause horrible catastrophes for mankind?
orangecrush
10-09-09, 11:48 AM
How much marketing can you do to combat 40+ years of Hollywood portraying the technical fields as uber-nerds?Show Bill Gates in a Scrooge McDuck vault of $100 bills. Explain that that is how much he makes a day. End of ad.
Groucho
10-09-09, 11:57 AM
It doesn't really matter. We could have everybody in the country get one of these degrees, and companies would just outsource the job to somebody in India.
Tommy Ceez
10-09-09, 12:02 PM
Teachers and University research scientists are outsourced to india?
Dr Mabuse
10-09-09, 12:35 PM
Oh yeah... we're fired up for science and technology.
The US has given more money to the pharmaceutical companies for advertising this year, free money for advertising, than it would cost for us to do another manned mission to the moon.
BKenn01
10-09-09, 05:31 PM
Show Bill Gates in a Scrooge McDuck vault of $100 bills. Explain that that is how much he makes a day. End of ad.
Nah, that would just make the lazy free lunch bastards (a group growing at an alarming rate) of America want to raise his taxes more.........
orangecrush
10-09-09, 06:01 PM
Nah, that would just make the lazy free lunch bastards (a group growing at an alarming rate) of America want to raise his taxes more.........Good luck to those people as his is giving away 90 some odd percent of his money. Though, they still may find a way. ;)
Suprmallet
10-09-09, 06:07 PM
Scrooge McDuck is giving his money away?! How will he have all those grand adventures without capital to fund them??
Rockmjd23
10-09-09, 06:10 PM
Not to mention, Flintheart Glomgold would become the new richest duck in the world!
BKenn01
10-09-09, 06:43 PM
Good luck to those people as his is giving away 90 some odd percent of his money. Though, they still may find a way. ;)
Nope, they wont be satisfied, he still has more than they do.......
al_bundy
10-09-09, 07:43 PM
I have a cell phone that can do almost everything a computer can and it's close to doing a lot star trek crap. Yep, were behind in tech
10 years ago everyone was saying that it was impossible to break through the 90nm barrier in CPU production. Intel is going to ship 32nm early next year and has a roadmap to 15nm in the next few years.
And then there is the awesome power of the graphics card
Baron Of Hell
10-09-09, 07:51 PM
I have a cell phone that can do almost everything a computer can and it's close to doing a lot star trek crap. Yep, were behind in tech
Most US cell phones are 10 years behind Japan.
al_bundy
10-09-09, 08:18 PM
So why are the japaneese starting to copy apple and are starting to write better operating systems similar to iPhone os
Tommy Ceez
10-09-09, 08:56 PM
So you're saying that a country with more lawyers than engineers has its science priorities right?
BKenn01
10-09-09, 09:17 PM
So you're saying that a country with more lawyers than engineers has its science priorities right?
You can just strike science. We definitley need fewer lawyers.
Tommy Ceez
10-09-09, 09:23 PM
All the future revenues we need is in becoming the go-to nation in the world on nuclear, solar, wind power, biotech, and nano technology
All these have huge growth upside and all require an educated manufacturing class and stable infrastructure.
We need engineers and scientists and the teachers to foster them
There is NOTHING...NOTHING that we can do to grow our economy in the future that does NOT require engineers, scientists, and teachers.
CRM114
10-09-09, 10:11 PM
Since politicians constantly talk in terms of investing in Americas future wouldn't it be prudent to have the Government start a program where Federal Student Loans for Degrees in Science, Engineering, and Education were granted at 0% interest?
Before you say that it just inspires people to go into those fields for the wrong reason realize that our current system inspires people in the technical fields to go into banking for the opposite reason. Graduate with a PhD in Mathematics and the only way to pay off your debt is to work on Wall St using your knowledge to find more complex ways to drain the economy for every last cent.
Taking the world lead back in these fields would pay off a hundredfold and would be a better use of funds than another century of TARPs and trade deficit debt management.
Absolutely.
CRM114
10-09-09, 10:14 PM
The US does pretty good in tech already. But many universities are importing students from other countries because not enough American kids are going into the engineering and science fields. They all want to be Wall Street tycoons.
Dr Mabuse
10-09-09, 10:23 PM
We haven't won the international programming competition in years.
That includes Stanford and MIT and etc.
They can't compete with India and the pacific rim.
kvrdave
10-10-09, 01:58 AM
Though I generally oppose those types of things, if I were to support it, you would still get your regular student loan and it wouldn't become 0% until you graduated with those degrees.
But honestly, I think we still compete very well with new investions. Japanese seem to refine them better, and everyone else makes them because of cheap labor. We need to get better at production, in my mind.
al_bundy
10-10-09, 09:15 PM
We haven't won the international programming competition in years.
That includes Stanford and MIT and etc.
They can't compete with India and the pacific rim.
yet google which has the most amazing file system yet created is full or americans. even microsoft does most of their pure computer science research in the US
Tommy Ceez
10-10-09, 09:50 PM
Im also willing to go a step further and support an alternate HS system where SOME students get college prep and others learn a field closer to ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY which would prepare them for mechanical/production/repair/build jobs
mosquitobite
10-10-09, 10:12 PM
Though I generally oppose those types of things, if I were to support it, you would still get your regular student loan and it wouldn't become 0% until you graduated with those degrees.
But honestly, I think we still compete very well with new investions. Japanese seem to refine them better, and everyone else makes them because of cheap labor. We need to get better at production, in my mind.
But really, to get "better" at production really means to be more cost effective. So either Americans will need to start being more realistic with wages (not necessarily $2.50/hr, but definitely not $15+) or we'll need more robotics. Which, in a round about way, is Tommy Ceez' point. To get better at robotics, we need more engineers. :shrug:
I think with a global marketplace, more than likely, lesser educated Americans are going to have to re-evaluate their standard of living, as painful as that might be. Our poor would be considered rich in almost every developing nation. I'm sure that doesn't sound fair to plenty of people, but oh well.
Of course, when inflation hits, maybe they will feel good about making $15/hr that's really only worth $2.50. :lol:
Hank Ringworm
10-14-09, 02:07 AM
Of course, when inflation hits, maybe they will feel good about making $15/hr that's really only worth $2.50. :lol:
You just brilliantly hit on the only good thing about inflation: it fools the peons. (I don't use "peon" as a pejorative term.)
foggy
10-14-09, 10:38 AM
Not a bad idea. I also think immigration reform is important in this area. A lot of highly skilled and knowledgable people in these fields are leaving because of their often uncertain visa status. We can't afford this sort of thing in today's world.
You've actually got this backwards. Americans tend to not go into these fields because wages are artificially depressed due to imported workers. I don't care about people who are here on work visas, they can go back where they came from.
al_bundy
10-14-09, 12:43 PM
i've never heard of depressed wages in tech fields. only difference is that now a lot of engineering jobs require a master's degree to do anything interesting
The Bus
10-14-09, 01:42 PM
You just brilliantly hit on the only good thing about inflation: it fools the peons. (I don't use "peon" as a pejorative term.)
It doesn't fool the peons. You'd be surprised by how much of our economy is dictated by consumer's expectations for inflation.
Shit, look at any thread here talking about sales or purchases. People as a whole make much more sophisticated buying decisions than you attribute to them.
Superboy
10-15-09, 01:40 AM
This sounds like a lot of the talking points that went around during Obama's first 100 days. Seriously.
He says we need to get more students, our best and brightest, into the fields of engineering and design jobs, not finance and marketing jobs. But he never explained how inundating the market with Americans trained in these jobs would "create" jobs in these fields, nor the kinds of incentives that would be offered to students in this arena.
Tommy Ceez
10-15-09, 10:15 AM
The jobs in these fields exist now, and will accelerate in the future. Think about the technical advances between years 1-1900 and the advances between 1900-2008. We would only have to MATCH the second period to see that high tech, beyond your wildest dreams technologies will be the global economic driver.
You 'create' science and engineering jobs by inventing the products and services that the world will need in the future.
Tommy Ceez
10-15-09, 10:19 AM
But the second 1/2 of the equation is important too. By training a manufacturing/technical workforce for those who do not want an advanced degree you have the following formula.
The worlds greatest scientists/engineers + the worlds most skilled manufacturers/assemblers = the ability to invent and build in this country.
Sure Thailand and Africa will be cheaper in 20 years. But are illiterate factory workers going to be able to build micro-fission reactors in a factory that loses power every afternoon at 7pm and is under mortar attack by a separatist faction?
shifrbv
10-15-09, 04:21 PM
Sure Thailand and Africa will be cheaper in 20 years. But are illiterate factory workers going to be able to build micro-fission reactors in a factory that loses power every afternoon at 7pm and is under mortar attack by a separatist faction?
Who's to say the US won't be like that?
With our current situation, it's hard to fathom a comeback anytime soon (not in at least the next 2-3 decades). We've got many people RIGHT NOW who have probably worked their last job. We've got a perilous situation with the dollar. Super high or even hyperinflation within the next 5 years. Only more shoes to drop ahead.
All this talk seems like the talk people did in the 50's about what they thought the future might be like. Well, the future is here, and it's not so great. Some things may happen, but it's not likely to be in the US. People can still train, but be prepared to work overseas.
Superboy
10-15-09, 09:34 PM
The jobs in these fields exist now, and will accelerate in the future. Think about the technical advances between years 1-1900 and the advances between 1900-2008. We would only have to MATCH the second period to see that high tech, beyond your wildest dreams technologies will be the global economic driver.
You 'create' science and engineering jobs by inventing the products and services that the world will need in the future.
They do exist, they just don't pay very well.
Tech should be the center of our economy but it's become something else entirely. It's become pillaging and thievery. Pretty much the only way to really make it in America is to rip people off, make money off their illnesses, or reap the spoils of war.
UC shelves plan to charge engineering, business undergrads more
The proposal for those students to pay $900 extra a year is postponed for further study but could eventually come before the regents in a revised form, a spokesman says.
By Larry Gordon
October 16, 2009
University of California officials have decided to shelve, at least for now, a controversial proposal to charge undergraduate engineering and business students $900 more a year than those in other majors. The plan, which had been scheduled for discussion and a possible vote at next month's regents meeting, has been postponed for further study, a university spokesman said Thursday.
UC administrators "felt they wanted to take more time to examine it," spokesman Ricardo Vazquez said. But he said the idea was not dead and could be brought to the regents in a revised form at a later date.
Faculty leaders said they had urged the delay. Among the concerns about the plan was whether, as critics contend, the proposed surcharges would drive students away from engineering and business majors even if extra financial aid was provided.
UC President Mark G. Yudof had suggested the higher fees for upper-division undergraduates in those two majors as part of a larger response to reduced state funding for the university. The regents are still scheduled to vote next month on a proposal to raise systemwide fees for all undergraduates by $2,514 by next fall to about $10,300, not including room, board and campus-based extras. The engineering and business surcharges would have been on top of that.
Regent Joanne Kozberg said Thursday that she was pleased the surcharge proposal had been delayed for further study, especially regarding its potential effect on engineering enrollment. "I would hate to put something in motion that would be counterproductive," she said. "I would be concerned that this could hinder efforts to bring more engineers to our workforce."
Lt. Gov. John Garamendi, a UC regent by virtue of his office, opposes the differential fees and welcomed news of the delay. "A permanent postponement of a really stupid policy is in order here," said Garamendi, who also plans to argue against the general fee increase.
UC has long charged a variety of fees for graduate and professional programs, with some students, including those in dentistry and law, paying much more than others. But it traditionally charged all undergraduates the same basic education rates. About half of the public research universities in the nation charge extra for at least one undergraduate major, according to a recent study. Engineering and business often are chosen because faculty salaries in those areas are generally higher than in other subjects and graduates tend to land better-paying jobs.
A Times article Monday detailing the proposal triggered interest -- and criticism of the plan -- from throughout the state. Engineering students said they were planning to protest the plan at the regents' November meeting.
Looks like our Universities disagree.
Birrman54
10-16-09, 11:49 AM
They do exist, they just don't pay very well.
Tech should be the center of our economy but it's become something else entirely. It's become pillaging and thievery. Pretty much the only way to really make it in America is to rip people off, make money off their illnesses, or reap the spoils of war.
What are the highest paying starting jobs out of college?
al_bundy
10-16-09, 03:04 PM
They do exist, they just don't pay very well.
Tech should be the center of our economy but it's become something else entirely. It's become pillaging and thievery. Pretty much the only way to really make it in America is to rip people off, make money off their illnesses, or reap the spoils of war.
you're just ticked off you didn't think of something as simple as twitter or facebook
and there are some interesting open source projects that are going strong to solve a lot of tech problems. and the way open source evolves is that corporations take the code, add to it and then publish it. and some companies are actively developing new features for open source projects as part of their corporate strategy
Superboy
10-16-09, 06:13 PM
What are the highest paying starting jobs out of college?
So basically 50,000 more to perform a usless drain on society working for the zombie squid
Hank Ringworm
10-17-09, 02:23 AM
It doesn't fool the peons. You'd be surprised by how much of our economy is dictated by consumer's expectations for inflation.
Shit, look at any thread here talking about sales or purchases. People as a whole make much more sophisticated buying decisions than you attribute to them.
You're right. Consumers' sales and purchases respond minutely to inflation or the threat thereof. Or they did, at least. I have yet to see a response to today's promises of hideous inflation down the road.
My post, as should be expected considering the suggesting post, was more about the producers, who, thanks to our rather brilliant systems, are the same folks as the consumers. Most folks grow up with a solid idea of what good pay is, in thousands of dollars per year. That ideal pay rarely changes with inflation. It's a numbers game, rather than a results game. Not for all, but, I think, for most. In this way are we peons (I am surely one) fooled by inflation.
What made you choose that one? I have a hard time believing 'Teacher' is one of the highest paying potential jobs for college students with useful degrees.
All of them are math or engineering related. You can argue that our obsession with finance has artificially boosted their field's wages, but it certainly hasn't depressed engineering pay.
Superboy
10-18-09, 07:05 AM
What made you choose that one? I have a hard time believing 'Teacher' is one of the highest paying potential jobs for college students with useful degrees.
All of them are math or engineering related. You can argue that our obsession with finance has artificially boosted their field's wages, but it certainly hasn't depressed engineering pay.
Thank you for posting that link. The article I posted focused more on the upper range of the wages in those fields, which is why finance topped that list. The list you posted focused on mean wages.
Tommy Ceez
10-18-09, 09:39 PM
So there is an economic incentive to go into engineering...lets address the other two fields
Buy: