Gun-Toting Soccer Mom, Husband Shot Dead in Apparent Murder-Suicide
LEBANON, Pa. — A mother of three who gained national notoriety after she openly carried a loaded handgun to her daughter's soccer game was shot dead along with her husband in what appeared to be a murder-suicide.
Meleanie Hain, 31, and Scott Hain 33, were pronounced dead shortly after 8:30 p.m. Wednesday at their 1 1/2-story brick home in Lebanon, a small city about 80 miles west of Philadelphia.
The couple's three children home at the time but weren't hurt, police told the Patriot-News in Harrisburg. They were taken to stay with friends and relatives.
Some neighbors told the Lebanon Daily News they heard or saw the children — a 10-year-old boy and girls aged 2 and 6 — running from the house and screaming "Daddy shot Mommy!" shortly before the 911 emergency center was alerted at 6:20 p.m.
Debbie Mise, who lives nearby, said she heard a strange sound following by the screams of the children.
"I heard something heavy drop or fall, and then right away I heard the kids screaming, but I thought they were playing," Mise said. "It was loud. But it didn't sound like a pop."
Lebanon Police Chief Daniel Wright said Thursday that the case is classified as a "death investigation" involving two adult victims, but that no one outside the home nor any of the children is suspected of killing the couple. Detectives were still at the scene late Thursday morning, he said.
Wright said he did not plan to release any additional information about the case until after Lebanon County Coroner Dr. Jeffrey Yocum conducts autopsies on Friday.
Details about the shootings and what prompted the violence remained unclear Thursday morning.
Neighbor Mark Long said the Hains had been having marital problems for about a week. He said Scott Hain had left home on Tuesday, and Meleanie Hain didn't know where he was, but that he returned Wednesday.
Another neighbor, Brian Witmer, said he saw Scott Hain mowing his lawn around 3:30 p.m. Wednesday.
"There was nothing out of the ordinary," he said. "He didn't seem strange at all."
Scott Hain worked as a parole officer in neighboring Berks County, the News reported. He was formerly a guard at the Camp Hill state prison, according to the newspaper.
Meleanie Hain made headlines after she attended her then 5-year-old daughter's soccer game in a park on Sept. 11, 2008, with her 9mm Glock pistol in plain view holstered on her hip, upsetting other parents.
The county sheriff, Michael DeLeo, revoked her gun-carrying permit nine days later.
Hain successfully appealed the permit revocation, although the judge who restored the permit questioned her judgment and said she had "scared the devil" out of other people at the game.
Hain sued DeLeo in federal court, alleging that he violated her constitutional rights and prosecuted her maliciously when he took the permit away. She said that because of his actions her baby-sitting service had suffered, her children had been harassed and she had been ostracized by her neighbors in Lebanon, which has about 25,000 residents.
DeLeo said at Hain's appeal that he revoked her permit after fielding the parents' complaints. He said he based his decision on a state law that prohibits certain gun permits from being given to anyone whose character and reputation make him or her a danger to public safety.
After Hain sued DeLeo, the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which says it tries to reform the gun industry through sensible regulations, offered to defend him for free.
"It is a case that calls out for common sense," Brady Center attorney Daniel Vice said then. "It's ridiculous to bring a gun to a child's soccer game."
A court hearing on Hain's $1 million lawsuit was postponed in May after an attorney in the case was involved in a traffic accident.
(Just in case the glee didn't come through-- Haha! Dead gun nut!)
JumpCutz
10-08-09, 05:23 PM
What kind of fucking idiot takes an exposed gun in a holster to a kids soccer game.
-ohbfrank-
Good riddance.
Birrman54
10-08-09, 05:36 PM
Well you might be surprised how many people open carry in the states that allow it. A soccer game is awfully inappropriate though, I'm a gun owner and I would have complained about that as well. The article is also unclear about who was the shooter.
I'm not sure I can find too much glee for the death of a child's parents, regardless of the mother's personal behavior in public.
AGuyNamedMike
10-08-09, 06:56 PM
So sad for all involved.
While I defend an individual's right to open carry "where legal, heh", I certainly agree there are many levels of propriety and personally prefer to concealed carry at all times. Even up here there are a number of people who find firearms provocative and get a little twitchy when they see a gun on a hip, and I believe it's just smarter to keep a low profile.
JasonF
10-08-09, 07:12 PM
Well you might be surprised how many people open carry in the states that allow it. A soccer game is awfully inappropriate though, I'm a gun owner and I would have complained about that as well. The article is also unclear about who was the shooter.
The father/husband.
I'm not sure I can find too much glee for the death of a child's parents, regardless of the mother's personal behavior in public.
Agreed. I think her behavior carrying her gun around to kids soccer games, on shopping trips, etc. was irresponsible and dangerous, but I don't think that's a reason to celebrate her murder.
jfoobar
10-08-09, 10:31 PM
Sorry for missing the original debate on Ms. Hain, but how is legal open carry of a firearm irresponsible or dangerous at a kid's soccer game?
I will acquiesce on "inappropriate", but I don't find that argument too terribly convincing either. The most inappropriate thing about it was the fact that any intelligent human being had to know it was going to cause an uproar and you might be exposing the children to that.
Hank Ringworm
10-09-09, 12:41 AM
Sorry for missing the original debate on Ms. Hain, but how is legal open carry of a firearm irresponsible or dangerous at a kid's soccer game?
I will acquiesce on "inappropriate", but I don't find that argument too terribly convincing either. The most inappropriate thing about it was the fact that any intelligent human being had to know it was going to cause an uproar and you might be exposing the children to that.
:up: :up:
Save Ferris
10-09-09, 01:35 AM
The very nature of a gun being secured outside the hip is what cops do. Why would this woman openly wearing a gun be any less safe than a police woman openly wearing a gun?
John Slider
10-09-09, 01:38 AM
Freedom to bare arms takes another one. God bless America!
JasonF
10-09-09, 02:12 AM
The very nature of a gun being secured outside the hip is what cops do. Why would this woman openly wearing a gun be any less safe than a police woman openly wearing a gun?
Police are specially trained, specifically dedicated to public safety and keeping the peace, and subject to supervision through their chain of command. None of these are true of the typical citizen who might be carrying a firearm.
Baron Of Hell
10-09-09, 05:35 AM
What kind of fucking idiot takes an exposed gun in a holster to a kids soccer game.
-ohbfrank-
Good riddance.
Probably the same ones that think it is ok to bring guns where the president is speaking.
jfoobar
10-09-09, 07:21 AM
Police are specially trained, specifically dedicated to public safety and keeping the peace, and subject to supervision through their chain of command. None of these are true of the typical citizen who might be carrying a firearm.
Couple of responses:
1. Armed security guards. They are all over the place and I assure you that they do not generally receive anything approaching the extensive firearms training inherent to most police academies.
His point about police officers (and likewise my mention of security guards) really only speaks to "appropriateness." Children are exposed to people openly carrying handguns in public quite frequently.
2. The better question is this. How is it really more "dangerous" and "irresponsible" for her to wear the pistol in an open holster to the event than just to wear it concealed?
Or do people here consider it equally "dangerous" and "inappropriate" to legally wear a concealed handgun to a children's sporting event?
maxfisher
10-09-09, 08:10 AM
Actually, I looked up PA's laws and security guards there do have to receive training and certification before they can legally carry.
I have a concealed carry permit and occasionally make use of it. I would NEVER take a gun to a child's sporting event, though. If it was on school grounds, that wouldn't even be legal here. I fully believe in an individual's right to own and carry a gun. I also believe in a duty to exercise care and common sense when doing so. That said, the situation in the story is unfortunate and seemingly completely unrelated to the woman's idiocy at her child's soccer game.
Save Ferris
10-09-09, 10:24 AM
Citizens can receive training on gun handling and safety. Do we know this woman was not trained? Also, from what I've heard from policemen, the training they have is very very very basic. As in, they shoot a few rounds at a target to qualify once a year. Anyway I just disagree that for simply being present, a gun made the soccer game 'less safe'.
jfoobar
10-09-09, 10:27 AM
Actually, I looked up PA's laws and security guards there do have to receive training and certification before they can legally carry.
Of course they do. However, unless Pennsylvania differs substantially from most other states, the firearms training they must complete before they can be armed is only a fraction of that which police officers receive.
I have a concealed carry permit and occasionally make use of it. I would NEVER take a gun to a child's sporting event
But why not?
MoviePage
10-09-09, 11:31 AM
Paging Dr. Mabuse...
orangecrush
10-09-09, 11:54 AM
So sad for the 3 kids. That kind of thing can seriously mess you up for life.
Lateralus
10-09-09, 12:13 PM
Ah! My hometown and the town I still live in makes national news, twice in the last 6 months. (We bitched at our Senator Specter at the town hall meetings as well) I think somebody from the county took them out because of that 1 million dollar lawsuit. :lol:
I'm really ashamed that these two idiots are from my town.
CaptainMarvel
10-09-09, 01:29 PM
Obviously this woman deserved to die for exercising a perfectly legal right. Let's just all agree on that point and get back to trying to exonerate Roman Polanski. It's a shame he didn't get the Nobel for how he brought the international art community together.
maxfisher
10-09-09, 02:09 PM
But why not?
Because when I have kids, I won't want a bunch of random people wearing guns to their elementary school sporting events. I assume other parents feel the same way and think it's appropriate to respect their wishes. I suppose my opinion might change if violent crime becomes a problem at 5-year-olds' soccer games.
JumpCutz
10-09-09, 02:39 PM
This situation isn't so remarkable.
I don't own guns, don't hang around people that own guns. I feel perfectly safe.
I see nothing wrong with owning guns lawfully. I suppose if you're hanging around people with guns and you strap on a gun regularly, traveling in those circles, you have a better chance of getting shot or killed by a firearm. :shrug:
-Captain O
gcbrowni
10-09-09, 03:12 PM
Because when I have kids, I won't want a bunch of random people wearing guns to their elementary school sporting events. I assume other parents feel the same way and think it's appropriate to respect their wishes.
But ... why?
Dr Mabuse
10-09-09, 03:18 PM
Obviously this woman deserved to die for exercising a perfectly legal right. Let's just all agree on that point and get back to trying to exonerate Roman Polanski. It's a shame he didn't get the Nobel for how he brought the international art community together.
:lol:
My sarcasm meter was freaking out... this explains it.
Brack
10-09-09, 03:40 PM
Just think if she hadn't owned a gun. Her husband would've killed her years ago. It's good to know the gun kept her safe for as long as it did.
Nazgul
10-09-09, 04:22 PM
Because when I have kids, I won't want a bunch of random people wearing guns to their elementary school sporting events.
I really don't see the 'need' either to be so obviously carrying a weapon to a children's soccer game. And, yes with a CCW it's your 'right' to carry it wherever, that does not make it the smartest decision.
jfoobar
10-09-09, 05:28 PM
Because when I have kids, I won't want a bunch of random people wearing guns to their elementary school sporting events.
I assume other parents feel the same way and think it's appropriate to respect their wishes. I suppose my opinion might change if violent crime becomes a problem at 5-year-olds' soccer games.
You still haven't really answered my question. There seems to be a lot of incredulity over the idea of people licensed to carry a firearm actually carrying a firearm to a children's soccer game. Do you believe that the children are in some amount of enhanced danger because some parent watching the game has a concealed handgun?
If you think that, that's cool. I'm probably not even inclined to debate you on that. It just seems like some people feel that there should be some bubble around children that keeps out the negative trappings of the real world. That bubble doesn't exist, and no amount of wishing will change that.
Wouldn't you feel a little bit better knowing that if some lunatic showed up and tried to hurt the children, there would be at least one legally armed person there who might be able to take action and prevent it? Last I checked, armed security or official police presence was not commonplace at soccer games for 5 year-olds. Violent crime is a problem everywhere. I doubt a soccer game for small children is inherently more safe than thousands of other places people legally possess handguns. People don't just carry firearms in places where there is a very high statistical likelihood of violent crime occurring. There is a reason for that. If wanted to stop and compile a list of brutal acts of violence just from the past few years that occurred where and when people were not expecting it, we would be here awhile.
I would also suggest that your assumption about the feelings of other parents on this issue is probably pretty erroneous as well. A very substantial percentage of the population supports legal concealed carry. I doubt the opinions of most of them change just because there is a soccer game going on.
Save Ferris
10-09-09, 06:15 PM
People abduct children. Perhaps wherever they were playing soccer there was a lot of crime, a history of abduction or other red flags parents are attuned to.
If your child was being grabbed would you rather there was an armed parent there to stop them, or would you rather wait for a uniformed policeman to show up so you can file a report?
Or, you know, seeing an armed parent, maybe someone thinking about grabbing a kid would rethink his chance of success.
Brack
10-09-09, 06:50 PM
Since when are kids abducted right in front of parents? Those must be the stupidest abductors on the planet.
Birrman54
10-09-09, 06:53 PM
Since when are kids abducted right in front of parents? Those must be the stupidest abductors on the planet.
Truly, what a nonsensical argument - the whole myth of our threatened children is overblown anyway.
I'd be somewhat concerned with a loaded gun at a childrens' sporting event because I've seen people go nuts at their kids' games and it'd probably be for the best that nobody is armed.
jfoobar
10-09-09, 07:10 PM
I'd be somewhat concerned with a loaded gun at a childrens' sporting event because I've seen people go nuts at their kids' games and it'd probably be for the best that nobody is armed.
A thought I had also when I was typing my last post. This really was the only good argument I can come up. Sad we live in a world where this is not that uncommon. On the other hand, its sad we live in a world where a CCW holder might prevent a violent crime also.
However, I have a feeling that those parents who would object strongly to a CCW parent at a soccer game would also object strongly to other non-sporting events featuring children as well. The likelihood of two ultra-competitive dads who live vicariously through their children coming to blows at a Christmas pageant seems far less than at a little league game.
Save Ferris
10-09-09, 07:22 PM
Since when are kids abducted right in front of parents? Those must be the stupidest abductors on the planet.
well it happened in the most recent popular abduction case in the news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/28/crimesider/entry5271075.shtml
(Jaycee Lee Dugard) Her stepdad saw her nabbed and tried to chase the car on his bike. From a basic google search, it looks like many abductions have witnesses.
Tommy Ceez
10-09-09, 10:29 PM
YEAH!
I want some mom firing shots at the guy who's carrying my kid away in his arms!
Tackle him stupid
Nazgul
10-09-09, 10:37 PM
YEAH!
I want some mom firing shots at the guy who's carrying my kid away in his arms!
This.
Save Ferris
10-10-09, 12:17 AM
Yeah everyone is physically able to take down a criminal.
And you're probably right, a kid has a slim chance of being safe with an abductor. Sometimes they're recovered alive.
But is it a better chance than actually being equipped to stop them?
I bet that guy chasing the kidnappers car on his bike wished he could shoot out their tires.
Brack
10-10-09, 12:45 AM
well it happened in the most recent popular abduction case in the news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/28/crimesider/entry5271075.shtml
(Jaycee Lee Dugard) Her stepdad saw her nabbed and tried to chase the car on his bike. From a basic google search, it looks like many abductions have witnesses.
An 11-year-old girl from South Lake Tahoe in Northern California, Jaycee Lee Dugard, had been abducted while waiting for a school bus about two blocks from her home.
Her step dad Carl watched helplessly from his garage as he saw a couple in a station wagon drive up to Jaycee and watched as a female pulled his step daughter into a station wagon.
That's right in front of the parent? Two blocks away, in a garage?
brayzie
10-10-09, 02:19 AM
Police are specially trained, specifically dedicated to public safety and keeping the peace, and subject to supervision through their chain of command. None of these are true of the typical citizen who might be carrying a firearm.
Good point.
Is Lebanon, PA really that dangerous that it's reasonable to bring a gun to a kids soccer game?
Was the family threatened or had past instances of being attacked?
How does that holster work? Is it locked in there pretty securely or is it fairly easy to get of there?
I'm trying to see the logic in carrying a gun like that.
After reading the Jaycee Lee Dugard case I could see why some would want to carry a gun. But I don't know how well it would worke out to have good intentioned samaritans shooting at the abductors or there cars in public. We would have to hope each gun owner was well trained and an exceptional shot and not shoot the child, or have strays hit bystanders or shots fired into the car that end up having the driver fatally hit someone in the street.
I guess you could argue that not everyone is going to be carrying a gun but if we live in a society/community where people feel the need to carry guns to buy milk an eggs, maybe the root of the problem isn't getting adressed.
Hank Ringworm
10-10-09, 05:26 AM
Police are specially trained, specifically dedicated to public safety and keeping the peace, and subject to supervision through their chain of command. None of these are true of the typical citizen who might be carrying a firearm.
Really? I know many gunowners who are better-qualified than local law enforcement. I am among them.
Hank Ringworm
10-10-09, 05:27 AM
Good point.
Is Lebanon, PA really that dangerous that it's reasonable to bring a gun to a kids soccer game?
Was the family threatened or had past instances of being attacked?
How does that holster work? Is it locked in there pretty securely or is it fairly easy to get of there?
I'm trying to see the logic in carrying a gun like that.
After reading the Jaycee Lee Dugard case I could see why some would want to carry a gun. But I don't know how well it would worke out to have good intentioned samaritans shooting at the abductors or there cars in public. We would have to hope each gun owner was well trained and an exceptional shot and not shoot the child, or have strays hit bystanders or shots fired into the car that end up having the driver fatally hit someone in the street.
I guess you could argue that not everyone is going to be carrying a gun but if we live in a society/community where people feel the need to carry guns to buy milk an eggs, maybe the root of the problem isn't getting adressed.
Does any of this bullshit matter?
CaptainMarvel
10-10-09, 10:48 AM
Does any of this bullshit matter?
Not except to people who believe that because they disagree with you doing something completely lawful that you should be banned from doing it and that you deserve to die for it, like the OP.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 11:10 AM
Does any of this bullshit matter?
Nope, not a word of it.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 11:12 AM
That's right in front of the parent? Two blocks away, in a garage?
How big is a soccer field, Brack?
jfoobar
10-10-09, 11:38 AM
YEAH!
I want some mom firing shots at the guy who's carrying my kid away in his arms!
Yes, because every child abduction happens just like that.
How about when a man walks up to a child in front of you and grabs her by the arm and tries to drag her away with her obviously resisting. The only people between this guy and his waiting vehicle are two women.
One of those women has a permitted handgun in a concealment holster on her waist, the other has (Superman reference) "ten dollars, two credit cards, a hairbrush and a lipstick."
Now for the old glass half-empty/glass half-full test. You ready?
Which of the following do you see in the scenario I just described?:
1. An excellent opportunity for the armed woman to draw her weapon, point it at the would-be kidnapper's chest and tell him to let go of the child, quite possibly saving the child's life without ever firing a shot.
2. OM MY GOD, is that woman carrying a firearm at a KIDS SOCCER GAME?!?!?!? What on earth is that maniac bitch thinking???
And before you think about responding with a bunch of "but what if" bullshit, that's not the point, at least not mine.
My point is that, in most states, CCW is the law of the land. There is no safe place in our society and some people are going to be inclined to carry their concealed firearm wherever they can legally do so, be it to the local Safeway, to church or to their child's soccer game. Are they ever likely to "need" it? No. Do some people think they are a little kooky for doing so? Yes. Does any of that shit matter? Nope.
I'm not here to defend Ms. Hain, even though the courts ruled that she was in the right if memory serves. She was probably an attention-seeking nutbag who was deliberately wearing her handgun in the open to create controversy.
Here's a long overdue picture of her in case Trobo finds her inexplicably attractive.
and how many people are at a soccer game? what good is having someone with a gun? is this person going to be shooting at someone at a soccer game, maybe shooting innocent people accidentally? couldn't those people nearby just stop the abductor there? what if you accidentally hit the kid? so many bad things could happen in this scenario it's not even funny, but if you believe it really makes someone or a situation safer in and of itself, that's just ridiculous.
Brack
10-10-09, 11:48 AM
And before you think about responding with a bunch of "but what if" bullshit, that's not the point, at least not mine.
and that's why your point is horribly flawed.
Birrman54
10-10-09, 11:53 AM
I'm fully in favor of carry permits, but no responsible gun owner would ever suggest drawing and firing a weapon in a field full of children, it's incredibly dangerous.
Birrman54
10-10-09, 11:57 AM
Here's a 'trained professional' attempting to save a woman who the officer thought was being attacked by a dog.
The result is both owner and dog were shot. That's the likely result when you indiscriminately fire a weapon.
and how many people are at a soccer game? what good is having someone with a gun? is this person going to be shooting at someone at a soccer game, maybe shooting innocent people accidentally? couldn't those people nearby just stop the abductor there? what if you accidentally hit the kid? so many bad things could happen in this scenario it's not even funny, but if you believe it really makes someone or a situation safer in and of itself, that's just ridiculous.
See my scenario above.
How many people are at a kids soccer game? If the kids football games that happen regularly across the parking lot from my gym or the soccer games I used to play in as a child are a fair indication, not very many at all. The players, the coaches and a couple of dozen parents, tops.
Yes, there are many bad things that can happen in that scenario, and the one that is MOST LIKELY is that a child will be successfully abducted.
Do you really have such a low opinion of CCW holders that you expect one of them to recklessly empty a magazine into the back of some guy dragging a child away? Is that really the mental vision that pops into your head? Now that's just ridiculous.
How about inside a shopping mall?
How about in a grocery store parking lot?
How about in a Taco Bell?
How about waiting in line at the DMV?
These are all places where innocent people are likely to be around, including children. Would you oppose someone legally carrying a concealed firearm in these places also?
Even if your answer is yes, explain to me how these places are more dangerous or less appropriate than a kids soccer game, which has been my point from the start.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 11:59 AM
and that's why your point is horribly flawed.
Surely you can conjure up something a little better than this, Brack.
Brack
10-10-09, 12:03 PM
Yes, there are many bad things that can happen in that scenario, and the one that is MOST LIKELY is that a child will be successfully abducted.
And you know this how? Based on what data?
Birrman54
10-10-09, 12:13 PM
Do you really have such a low opinion of CCW holders that you expect one of them to recklessly empty a magazine into the back of some guy dragging a child away? Is that really the mental vision that pops into your head? Now that's just ridiculous.
What's your mental image? They draw a gun and the guy lets the kid go?
You're acting as if kids are being abducted at some frighteningly rapid pace in this country. It's simply not reality. I have no problem with people carrying firearms, but the idea that they're needed to protect our children from shadowy figures isn't accurate and expecting that you'll be John McClane and save the day isn't necessarily accurate either.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 12:15 PM
Here's a 'trained professional' attempting to save a woman who the officer thought was being attacked by a dog.
Did you read the article first or did you just zoom in on the sensationalist headline? :lol:
The news here is that the police officer made a mistake in her judgment that the dog was attacking the woman. Outside of that err in judgment, it sounds like the officer acted appropriately.
The result is both owner and dog were shot.
No, the dog was shot. The woman was injured when "one of the bullets hit the ground and fragments ricocheted, wounding her in the upper body. She was taken by helicopter to Memorial Hermann Hospital, treated and released."
As much as you obviously wanted to create the impression that a police officer recklessly sprayed her weapon at a woman and her dog, hitting both, that's not what happened at all, is it?
Yes, ricochets are a danger whenever a firearm is discharged, but it can become pretty much impossible to control them, especially if the bullet fragments. But what if the woman was being attacked by a pit bull and the officer wounded her with a fragment ricochet in the course of saving her life, would you still be citing this article as an example of "trained professionals" screwing up with a gun?
Again, the only thing news worthy here is that she erred in determining that the woman was being attacked, not that she discharged her firearm to end the attack.
That's the likely result when you indiscriminately fire a weapon.
:lol: Again, did you read the article?
Birrman54
10-10-09, 12:16 PM
I live in NJ so I'm not allowed to defend myself in public, but for an example where I'd like the ability to carry (or my girlfriend have the ability to carry) is when her or I are walking the dog at night.
The neighborhood is reasonably safe, but a mugging isn't unheard of and it'd be nice to not have to be nervous about a jackass with a knife.
I didn't realize being hit with bullet fragments somehow didn't count. Do you own a gun?
Yes I read the article, it sounds like a police office and her superior covering their ass.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 12:25 PM
What's your mental image? They draw a gun and the guy lets the kid go?
If the armed person took any action at all, statistically, the overwhelmingly likely response would be that he/she drew the weapon without firing it.
Whether the would-be abductor let the kid go at that point I don't know. What would you do?
You're acting as if kids are being abducted at some frighteningly rapid pace in this country. It's simply not reality.
I never said that it was. In fact, I already said just a few posts ago that a CCW holder is not likely to ever "need" to use a firearm, and that would include possibly responding to thousands of possible dangerous scenarios, not just child abductions at soccer games.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 12:28 PM
And you know this how? Based on what data?
Is this really the only part of my post you are going to respond to, Brack? I asked you some pretty pointed questions.
brayzie
10-10-09, 02:59 PM
Does any of this bullshit matter?
It matters to me. I'm going into this with an open mind. I'm trying to see how living like it's the wild west is a good thing.
I'm not against the law in the original articles case. If that's what they decide fine. I also don't see how a murder suicide would justify repealing the law when it happened in doors. Just noticed the last line in the OP. That's very sad someone would find glee in that.
But about stopping muggings, abductions and such: what if even more criminals start carrying guns as well and get the drop on you first? Shoot out at the OK Coral?
You could hope that someone else in the street has a gun as well so that might mean we have 3 or more possible directions of gunfire.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 03:13 PM
It matters to me. I'm going into this with an open mind. I'm trying to see how living like it's the wild west is a good thing.
Ahh, the old "Wild West" anti-concealed carry imagery being trotted out yet again. It's a nonsensical and tired argument, brayzie, and one that has been used each and every time a state has considered the adoption of CCW laws. Guess what. It's never been realized.
36 of the 50 states are shall-issue concealed carry states, and at least 1 more is, in effect if not statute, shall-issue as well. That means in 37 of the 50 states, including states that are home to several of the largest metropolitan areas in the nation, anyone who meets the legal requirements and fills out an application, will be issued a concealed carry permit.
Phoenix, Miami, Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Nashville, Memphis, Charlotte, Atlanta, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Las Vegas, St. Louis, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City and so on. Where is the OK Coral [sic] carnage?
But about stopping muggings, abductions and such: what if even more criminals start carrying guns as well...
What if? rotfl
jfoobar
10-10-09, 03:24 PM
The neighborhood is reasonably safe, but a mugging isn't unheard of and it'd be nice to not have to be nervous about a jackass with a knife.
An attitude no doubt shared by hundreds of thousands of people with concealed carry permits. Violent crimes, above and beyond abductions, can happen at sporting events also.
I didn't realize being hit with bullet fragments somehow didn't count.
As it demonstrates that the officer did not fire her weapon at the woman, accidentally or deliberately, but did hit what she was aiming at (the dog), I'd say it most certainly counts.
I see absolutely nothing in that article to suggest that the officer did anything wrong at all except misjudging the situation. As a dog owner, I am very pleased that the dog did not die. One thing I am quick to fault police on is how cavalier they often are about shooting someone's pet.
Do you own a gun?
I may not be the best person for you to prove your point with. I am a LEO and carry a firearm for a living. Ironically, I am permitted to and even somewhat encouraged to carry off duty but do so only infrequently.
Yes I read the article, it sounds like a police office and her superior covering their ass.
I think you should read it again. There is nothing in the article to indicate that either the officer or her supervisor is covering up anything at all. The only positive quote is from a witness:
"The young lady started hollering and just at that time a police officer was coming down and thought the dog was attacking the lady," witness Dennis Wallace said. "I can't say that I would do anything different. The (officer) drew down and started shooting. I couldn't say I wouldn't have done that."
The only mention of any sort of official response was this:
La Marque police declined to comment about the shooting, but said the 30-year-old officer has been with the department for about a year and a half.
The Galveston County District Attorney's Office and the Galveston County Sheriff's Office are investigating.
brayzie
10-10-09, 03:30 PM
Ahh, the old "Wild West" anti-concealed carry imagery being trotted out yet again. It's a nonsensical and tired argument, brayzie, and one that has been used each and every time a state has considered the adoption of CCW laws. Guess what. It's never been realized.
Sorry then to bring it up again. I was thinking against using that kind of analogy but after reading how all these incidents could have been prevented if people were packing, I would imagine that would mean more people would have to carry guns. Sure there's a law that supports it, but surely some still dont' carry concealed weapons right?
And no one can predict if they're going to be a victim. So the whole, "If only they had a gun" thing would only work if more and more people carried guns.
I'm not against the law itself. I'm arguing against the argument that everyone needs a gun to ensure safety. The amount of gun ownership would need to rise in order to meet the off chance of being a victim of a violent crime.
Phoenix, Miami, Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Nashville, Memphis, Charlotte, Atlanta, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Las Vegas, St. Louis, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City and so on. Where is the OK Coral [sic] carnage?
What if? rotfl
Thanks for the info. Is there any statistics out there that show that the majority of the populations carry concealed weapons?
@what if? rotfl
I see alot of what ifs from both sides so I don't see the point in finding humor specifically in one but not the others.
Brack
10-10-09, 03:33 PM
Is this really the only part of my post you are going to respond to, Brack? I asked you some pretty pointed questions.
Way to go with deflecting. You asked questions which have answers that depend on where those places are. I don't believe every place in the country is equally dangerous.
CaptainMarvel
10-10-09, 03:49 PM
Sorry then to bring it up again. I was thinking against using that kind of analogy but after reading how all these incidents could have been prevented if people were packing, I would imagine that would mean more people would have to carry guns. Sure there's a law that supports it, but surely some still dont' carry concealed weapons right?
And no one can predict if they're going to be a victim. So the whole, "If only they had a gun" thing would only work if more and more people carried guns.
I'm not against the law itself. I'm arguing against the argument that everyone needs a gun to ensure safety. The amount of gun ownership would need to rise in order to meet the off chance of being a victim of a violent crime.
I'd never advocate that everybody should carry a gun. I'd certainly advocate allowing citizens who have otherwise shown themselves to be law abiding to make the calculus for themselves whether it's worthwhile to carry a gun or not. If you think the chance of being attacked is so miniscule that it's not worth the effort, I have no issue with you not carrying, but I absolutely resent being told by somebody else that I'm not allowed to carry because you don't trust my own evaluation of my safety needs.
jfoobar
10-10-09, 03:54 PM
Way to go with deflecting. You asked questions which have answers that depend on where those places are. I don't believe every place in the country is equally dangerous.
Not deflecting, brack (but now you are). Still waiting on you. You are welcome to answer those questions solely from the perspective of where you live if you wish.
It doesn't matter if every place in the country is equally dangerous. Only a nincompoop would begin to assert that they are. It is simply a fact that there are very, very few places in this country that have not been touched directly by violent crime and no place in this country that could not be touched by violent crime on any given day.
My point from the very beginning of my involvement in this thread was to question those that demonstrated outrage at the notion of someone legally carrying a firearm to a kids soccer game. From those that oppose the notion of CCW altogether, I expect disagreement. From those that support CCW, I remain pretty much baffled. If you are one of those people who doesn't believe that regular citizens should be able to carry a firearm, that's cool. I won't debate you on that because that would be about as fruitful as arguing abortion.
Birrman54 has been the only person so far in this thread who has even offered a reasonable response to my question when he pointed out how many parent vs. parent fist fights and what not there seem to have been in recent years at children's sporting events.
Save Ferris
10-10-09, 04:05 PM
After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average.
--Florida Department of Justice
In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.
--Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime from 1995-2001.
States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.
FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 2004 - excludes Hawaii and Rhode Island
The point is, if your job is to steal or rape people and live successfully long enough to do it again later, you dont pick people who look dangerous or prepared to fend for themselves. Even animals pick weak targets.
Criminals wont 'pack more guns', they'll look for easier targets.
AGuyNamedMike
10-12-09, 08:41 PM
Whoa, trying to apply clear statistical evidence and sound logic in (what has become) a gun thread? Good luck!
:D
Brack
10-12-09, 09:04 PM
Not deflecting, brack (but now you are). Still waiting on you. You are welcome to answer those questions solely from the perspective of where you live if you wish.
And so I did. No deflecting here, sorry.
It doesn't matter if every place in the country is equally dangerous. Only a nincompoop would begin to assert that they are. It is simply a fact that there are very, very few places in this country that have not been touched directly by violent crime and no place in this country that could not be touched by violent crime on any given day.
Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
My point from the very beginning of my involvement in this thread was to question those that demonstrated outrage at the notion of someone legally carrying a firearm to a kids soccer game. From those that oppose the notion of CCW altogether, I expect disagreement. From those that support CCW, I remain pretty much baffled. If you are one of those people who doesn't believe that regular citizens should be able to carry a firearm, that's cool. I won't debate you on that because that would be about as fruitful as arguing abortion.
Birrman54 has been the only person so far in this thread who has even offered a reasonable response to my question when he pointed out how many parent vs. parent fist fights and what not there seem to have been in recent years at children's sporting events.
You need every point you make acknowledged? Some of us don't aim to "challenge" every point you make, and that doesn't mean we're deflecting, we just don't care about arguing beliefs.
jfoobar
10-12-09, 09:56 PM
And so I did. No deflecting here, sorry.
Here are my questions again, which you have not yet answered.
Do you really have such a low opinion of CCW holders that you expect one of them to recklessly empty a magazine into the back of some guy dragging a child away? Is that really the mental vision that pops into your head? Now that's just ridiculous.
How about inside a shopping mall?
How about in a grocery store parking lot?
How about in a Taco Bell?
How about waiting in line at the DMV?
These are all places where innocent people are likely to be around, including children. Would you oppose someone legally carrying a concealed firearm in these places also?
Even if your answer is yes, explain to me how these places are more dangerous or less appropriate than a kids soccer game, which has been my point from the start.
Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
It's not probable anywhere in this country to the best of my knowledge. Do you support only requiring people to wear seat belts when it is probable that they will be involved in a automobile accident?
You need every point you make acknowledged? Some of us don't aim to "challenge" every point you make, and that doesn't mean we're deflecting, we just don't care about arguing beliefs.
Perhaps you would like to tell me what you think my beliefs are.
Brack
10-12-09, 10:27 PM
Here are my questions again, which you have not yet answered.
I said it depends on the location, but if you want to speak generally, we can do that. Let's take the people who are at a kids soccer game and compare the type of people who go to those other places. Those other places attract a wide variety of people. Kids soccer games, not so much, and the potential for danger decreases.
It's not probable anywhere in this country to the best of my knowledge. Do you support only requiring people to wear seat belts when it is probable that they will be involved in a automobile accident?
I feel pretty safe from violent crime where I live, with or without a gun. And there's a difference between have a law requiring people to wear seat belts than people choosing to carry a concealed weapon.
Perhaps you would like to tell me what you think my beliefs are.
Your beliefs are scattered throughout this thread, but your main one is that you believe people should be able to carry guns wherever, right?
jfoobar
10-12-09, 10:56 PM
I said it depends on the location, but if you want to speak generally, we can do that. Let's take the people who are at a kids soccer game and compare the type of people who go to those other places. Those other places attract a wide variety of people. Kids soccer games, not so much, and the potential for danger decreases.
You might be surprised at the types of people that are attracted to public places where large numbers of children gather. But OK, you answered my question. I don't believe for an instant that the slight demographic differences between those at a soccer game versus those at a nearby mall reduce the risk of violent crime to an extent that someone who otherwise would wear a concealed firearm would choose not to wear it.
I feel pretty safe from violent crime where I live, with or without a gun. And there's a difference between have a law requiring people to wear seat belts than people choosing to carry a concealed weapon.
Yup. One is a safeguard the use of which may protect against death or serious bodily harm that is mandated by the state (and rightfully so). The other is a safeguard the use of which may protect against death or serious bodily harm that is not mandated by the state (and rightfully so).
Lots of people wore seat belts before it was required by law because they felt it made them safer. It's the same reason that most people who choose to carry a concealed handgun do so. Given the choice between the two, I'll take seat belts but the law in most states allows for both.
Your beliefs are scattered throughout this thread, but your main one is that you believe people should be able to carry guns wherever, right?
I oppose the concealed carry laws as they currently exist in every state. Not a single state does it right, IMHO, including the ones that do not allow concealed carry at all. I also don't believe PA law should have allowed for the woman mentioned in the OP to be able to carry her handgun in the open.
brayzie
10-13-09, 03:01 AM
I oppose the concealed carry laws as they currently exist in every state. Not a single state does it right, IMHO, including the ones that do not allow concealed carry at all. I also don't believe PA law should have allowed for the woman mentioned in the OP to be able to carry her handgun in the open.
In your opinion how should the law be? And why shouldn't PA law have allowed her to carry her gun in the open?
Right now I'm looking up the laws in regards to "open carry" and "concealed carry," because I'm ignorant in large parts of the issue.
I asked some questions earlier and was answered with "why does that bullshit matter?"
I asked about the holster, etc because if your at a place with many children, how easy would it be for a kid to pull the gun out while you were distracted, even for a brief moment.
If the the gun is securely locked in and difficult for someone else to just grab I wouldn't think as harshly of the idea.
Save Ferris
10-13-09, 11:23 AM
I have a relative in law enforcement. I asked a similar question. He said 'try to get my gun' it was in a leather holster on his hip. I tried to pull it out, and it wouldn't come out. He laughed and with one swipe he was able to draw it. I never figured out how it worked but it was pretty cool. There are holsters out there that are capable of securing a gun safely.
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