Mothra

Speakers consist of:

Polk RT35i Mains
Polk M3-II Rears
Polk CS-150 Center
Paradigm PS-1000 Sub

All are being driven by a Yamaha HTR-5170 @ 85 WPC.

The question, is this...I presently have all speakers set to large. During heavy bass scenes (SPR, EAGLES HFO, Lost in Space, etc.), they seem to be straining to reproduce the low frequencies. The drivers on the RT35i's are actually "bottoming" out. I know this is not good. I know that I can set them to small, and send the lows to the sub, but this doesn't sound as good. Sending 5 channels simultaneously to one speaker(sub) can't be the best solution. What do I do? I know that a lot of you are using "smallish" speakers for fronts and surrounds, (Energy Take5, Paradigm Mini's, etc.) What are you doing to get around this problem? I really don't want to go out and spend more money on huge speakers for every corner of my room....the wife would absolutely flip! Any ideas?



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The reason my marriage hangs by a thin thread...

quote:<HR>Yes, My Sweet....I promise not to buy any more DVD's this month.<HR>

Lush

How come sending 5 ch simultaneously to the sub can't be good? A DD decoder doesn't sum up the 5 channels to produce this one massive bass signal to overload your sub. I use "small" all around. I set my processor's X-over at 70hz.

Mains: Pardadigm Ref Studio 60v.1
center: Paradigm Ref LCR450
rears: Paradigm Titans
Sub: Mirage BPS-150i

The sub usually handles bass better and should carry the load. You said you can set them to small but it doesn't sound good. You tried it I assume? It's gotta be better than drivers bottoming out.

leemik

Does your Sub have speaker level inputs and outputs?

If so then I would:
1. from the receiver, connect the FL, FR speaker outs to the sub.
2. from the sub, connect the L and R speaker out's to the Polks. This will filter out the bass to the Polks using crossover in the sub.
3. set the LFE .l channel to "off" on the receiver, set the fronts to be full range.

This should sound a ton better

--mike

DVD_O_Rama

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lush:
How come sending 5 ch simultaneously to the sub can't be good? A DD decoder doesn't sum up the 5 channels to produce this one massive bass signal to overload your sub.
<HR>

I wouldn't say that it can't be good, but full-range speakers all around can't be touched when compared to a sub/sat system.
More and more soundtracks today are using low frequency bass in all channels, and putting bass from multiple channels into one sub will result in directional sound not coming from where they were intended to be coming from. Take Saving Private Ryan for example, when those tanks runble in your surrounds, you can feel them behind you. Coming from a sub in your corner (presumably, of course) the sound gets 'pulled' from the rears and can be distracting.
Full range can't be beat, and the best set-up is full range speakers all around with a sub for every channel, and another for the LFE channel. Awesome.


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svadas

Have you tried adjusting the bass management system of either the receiver or the sub cross-over frequency depending on the way yours is set up? I wonder if you are not optimally set up with your adjustments for "small" speaker settings. The Avia disc makes this very easy if you have a sound meter. If your speakers are bottoming out, that can't possibly sound better and it's obvious that they've reached their excursion limits. Distortion could also be showing it's head from the receiver. I used to bottom out my speakers a lot earlier than with my much higher powered amp that I now have. It would appear that the excursions in the woofer were attributed to dirty power at peaks instead of the true capabilities of the speakers. Just some things you might want to look into.

Lush

DVD_O_Rama:

I agree with you that full-range all around is best. No question about that. I just think most $500-1000 floorstanders (without active subs built in) can't do the Tiger tanks any justice. From reading posts on boards like this, I get the impression that people who own speakers like Paradigm Monitor 5s, Studio 20s; Mirage Frx 5s; B&W 305s; etc, are running them "large." Provided they also own a sub of degree pedigree, they could probably cover more of the audio spectrum at SPR levels if they ran such speakers "small." Your point regarding directional bass is well taken however. I've always itched to put a sub at the back....

vlad

I have been really tempted to go to madisound and buy several NHT 1259 drivers and place subs al around the theater....

So far I have held back.

My surrounds go down to 60hz or so, but I still run them as large.

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Steve

Mothra

Vlad...

Don't you find that your speakers are being 'pushed' to hard on the large setting? Not all DVD's will do this...but, SPR and some others definitely will. I am seriously toying with the idea of adding small subs all around with speaker level outputs for my existing speakers....hmmm.... might have to do that.




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The reason my marriage hangs by a thin thread...

quote:<HR>Yes, My Sweet....I promise not to buy any more DVD's this month.<HR>

vlad

IF they are, I can't tell. Let me describe my system and then you might understand why.

I have NHT VT-2's for the left and right. These come with a 10" side firing sub built in. I also have a NHT SW3P forward firing into the room. I have NHT VS-2a's for the center and surround. My speakers are driven from a Sunfire Cenima Grand while the sub has it own 250Watt amp.

I have oodles of speakers provinding bass and gobs of power driving it, if the rear speakers are bottoming out, you can't hear it... while testing the Sunfire on GoldenEye, the tank sceen, I saw 117db on my spl meter. I turned it down.

Why do I want more bass? My neighbor can't feel T-Rex... yet.

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Steve

DVD_O_Rama

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lush:
DVD_O_Rama:

I agree with you that full-range all around is best. No question about that. I just think most $500-1000 floorstanders (without active subs built in) can't do the Tiger tanks any justice. From reading posts on boards like this, I get the impression that people who own speakers like Paradigm Monitor 5s, Studio 20s; Mirage Frx 5s; B&W 305s; etc, are running them "large." Provided they also own a sub of degree pedigree, they could probably cover more of the audio spectrum at SPR levels if they ran such speakers "small." Your point regarding directional bass is well taken however. I've always itched to put a sub at the back.... <HR>

I am in the process of working out the plans for a new house I will be building (well, not me personally... ) that will feature a dedicated basement home theater with a front projection video sysytem, and a speaker set-up like the one I described above. In the meantime, I couldn't see putting all that gear into the very small (and old) home I am in now, so I decided to buy some lower end stuff to tide me over. After buying a crappy sub/sat system and being dissatisfied, I upgraded to four Yamaha NSA-1638's as my main and surround speakers. With 12" side firing woofers, and frequency response down to 35Hz, believe me, they do the tanks in SPR justice. I was amazed at how much bass I was missing, especially directional bass from the rears. Like I said, they are a far cry from 'high-end' but I am very, very pleased with them and plan on keeping them upstairs in the living room in the new house.


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audrey

Even at the relatively high THX specified crossover point (80hz), bass is still relatively nondirectional. So it's hard to see how over driving your speakers (perhaps even clipping your amp as well) can be worth the trade off. I'd use the small setting. Another side benefit of the small setting is that your amp will not have to work as hard; you might hear an improvement in the mid-range.

Perhaps the levels of your sub and mains are not properly adjusted. A simple (but not completly accurate approach) is the play white or pink noise then set your sub about 6db lower than the average of the mains.

brilon

You do have an option that works fantastic.I just got a pair of the Clark Synthesis tactile transducers powered by an Audiosource AMP1A.Set your rears and center to small because they cannot handle bass heavy movies.The Clark units let you feel everything you have been missing(including your sub)I use a Mirage BPS-400 sub and the tactile transducers do what my sub cannot.I use the level controls on the AMP1A to adjust the volume being sent to the Clark Units.They have a much smoother tactile sensation than the cheaper Aura or RBH units.It made a HUGE difference with my system.With those installed,it lightens the load for the rest of your system as well.

[This message has been edited by brilon (edited April 29, 2000).]

SS

If your speakers are distorting set to large
they will soon be destroyed and your problem
will be solved. I am not familiar with your
speakers or amplifier. The speakers can
bottom from lack of power also. In my past
experience low current amps will destroy
speakers faster than excessive power because
you can always turn the power down but you
can't turn it up if you don't have enough.
Full range speakers are the best for 5.1.
However they are not always affordable and
if you don't have the power sat/sub is fine.
The power from your amp is best used set to
small. If your sub is adjusted properly you
should not be able to localise it. If you
can hear when it is sitting the room, it is
too loud. It should blend and fill. It should
not rumble with voice or constantly. Setting
it at not more than 80-100hz should be good.