What is wrong with comic book cartoons?

[Superboy]

I just recently caught Wolverine and the X-men on TV. I have to say that I am sorely disappointed at how bad this cartoon is. Is it just age and maturity that is making all the recent cartoons bad, or is it because these shows end up being so flat and poorly written? It always thought it was because the original Fox X-men show mined all the great X-men stories, leaving very little for Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. Even then, nothing was stopping them from writing new stories using great characters and themes.

I felt the same way about The Batman and (shudder) Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Superman and the Legion of Superheroes was really disappointing as well. Justice League Unlimited was fun for a while but got really dull after the first few seasons.

What do you think is causing the dearth of good comic movies?

[stingermck]

I liked The Batman, Legion, and JL/U. :shrug:

I havent caught X-Men yet, but rememeber the original was about 15 years ago. Just a different time, like comparing Super Friends and JL.

[resinrats]

You have to remember that these cartoons are meant for kids, not adults. While many try to be entertaining to adults as well, they still can't do something that comic books can do.

[fumanstan]

I thought Justice League kicked all sorts of ass and while the last season of unlimited wasn't as good as the first, it was still fantastic. I've also really enjoyed the first couple episodes of Brave and the Bold. So maybe it's just you :)

I am disappointed we haven't gotten a version of X-Men or Spider-Man to match the 90's ones.

[fujishig]

I think comic-based cartoons have become a lot better. They actually have some continuity to them, and continuing themes throughout. Justice League and JLU referenced storylines from Superman the Animated Series...

and yes, they're made for kids, at least the ones you mention (Justice League, I'm not sure about, since they put it at odd times). Stuff like Teen Titans, Legion of Superheroes, Batman: Brave and the Bold, and the Batman are all primarily for kids. Now if your complaint is that they don't follow the comic book stories... why would they? They can't use today's stories, which are very continuity heavy, and because the market for comic books is declining year by year, it's not like the kids are clamoring for the comic stories to be animated. I'm just glad they put references and secondary characters in from comic book lore.

Still a far cry from the olden days of comic book cartoons: Herbie the robot, that kid that could turn into the Thing, etc. And even as a kid, I hated the animation in some of those Spiderman and X-men cartoons.

[dx23]

I just recently caught Wolverine and the X-men on TV. I have to say that I am sorely disappointed at how bad this cartoon is. Is it just age and maturity that is making all the recent cartoons bad, or is it because these shows end up being so flat and poorly written? It always thought it was because the original Fox X-men show mined all the great X-men stories, leaving very little for Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. Even then, nothing was stopping them from writing new stories using great characters and themes.

I felt the same way about The Batman and (shudder) Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Superman and the Legion of Superheroes was really disappointing as well. Justice League Unlimited was fun for a while but got really dull after the first few seasons.

What do you think is causing the dearth of good comic movies?

I do agree with you except for the Justice League comment. Justice League/JLU has to be one of the best comic animated series ever done. It was more for adults than kids and all the episodes were pretty solid.

I'm with you on the rest, with the fact that the stupid studios have this idea that comic book characters have to be watered down and kiddyfied to the maximum extent. They haven't learn what Pixar has done with the film, where they are good for all generations. I'm also completely dissapointed with all of the direct to DVD films that both Marvel and DC have done. They try to cram large comic book storylines in 90 minutes. Why don't they take the time and do it right. If they are straight to dvd, why do they care so much about fitting these films on 90 minutes?

Both Marvel and DC should stop and re-star everything again, especially redo the Superman/Doomsday saga they way it should have been done. The good thing about JLU was all the connection that it had with Batman the Animated Series, Superman, Batman Beyond, Static Shock, The Zeta Project and Justice League. All storylines were developed properly and there was some kind of consistency with the characters.

[Boondock Saint]

I enjoy Spectacular Spiderman.

[MBoyd]

I love the 2 episodes I have seen of Brave And The Bold. Much better than the direct to DVD Gotham Knight.

[davidh777]

I'm just glad they put references and secondary characters in from comic book lore.

I geek out over some of the characters they use in JLU

[boredsilly]

It always thought it was because the original Fox X-men show mined all the great X-men stories, leaving very little for Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. Even then, nothing was stopping them from writing new stories using great characters and themes.

They might have mined all of the best X-men stories, but that show was TERRIBLE. Try and watch an episode now, I dare you. I loved back in the day, but I was also 12 years old at the time. That shit doesn't hold up like the DCAU stuff.

I've only seen one ep of Brave and the Bold, but I like it. It's just fun. Nothing deep or engrossing, but cartoons aren't really meant to be that, especially those targeted at kids.

When have comic cartoons been better than they are now? You could say the 90's when you had BTAS, Superman, Spawn, and Beyond on all around the same time, but other than that?

[Hokeyboy]

Aww man, some of the DC cartoons were fantastic... Batman: The Animated Series, Superman, Justice League/JLU, Teen Titans... and I *really* like "The Brave and the Bold" so far. Kiddie oriented, of course, but bright and fun and full of action and laughs.

I didn't care for that last BATMAN series (the voice acting was massively subpar, especially that god-awful Robin voice) or LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES (which is my favorite comic of all time). Not because they slanted towards the kiddie side, though. I loved TEEN TITANS, which was even more kiddified but was the perfect balance of youthful exhuberance and strong storytelling.

I could never get into the Marvel cartoons. They always seemed so... so second-rate, generic, dopey and cartoonish. Batman and X-Men cartoons both came out in 1992, and comparing the two... well, there's no comparison.

[Superboy]

They might have mined all of the best X-men stories, but that show was TERRIBLE. Try and watch an episode now, I dare you. I loved back in the day, but I was also 12 years old at the time. That shit doesn't hold up like the DCAU stuff.

I've only seen one ep of Brave and the Bold, but I like it. It's just fun. Nothing deep or engrossing, but cartoons aren't really meant to be that, especially those targeted at kids.

When have comic cartoons been better than they are now? You could say the 90's when you had BTAS, Superman, Spawn, and Beyond on all around the same time, but other than that?

Really? I still love the X-men cartoon. It's a shame the dvd box set got cancelled...

It was the cartoon that got me into comics, and when I read a lot of the classic stories i was surprised at how much had been changed, but at the same time how they managed to maintain the integrity of the storylines while modernizing them. You also can't beat all those times Bishop got sent back to the future over and over with things being the different/same...

I also loved how formidable the enemies were, and how they didn't make the X-men overpowered. Even Storm and Rogue were still vulnerable in that show. It wasn't about powers, it was about brains - if you watch the show, many times they win through thinking and strategy rather than brute force.

I couldn't stand Evolution when it was first aired, but the show grew on me. What really turned me off was how flat the characters were. Until they got more into character exploration, the show just wasn't for me. I also found many of the voice actors incredibly annoying. The same goes for Wolverine and the X-men.

What I don't understand about Wolverine and the X-men is that they're using less popular X-universe characters, without a proper introduction. At least with the Fox X-men you knew what everyone could do - or at least they'd find a convenient moment to explain it. Domino seems pivotal to the story but I doubt many audiences know who she is or even what her powers are.

[dadaluholla]

Fox's X-men cartoon from the 90's is simply an embarrassment to animation. In fact most of Marvel's cartoon history is pretty damn ugly (Spider-Man, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Iron Man). I've always wondered how they could continually churn out such garbage, when DC knocked it out of the park time and time again.

I would rank Justice League and JLU over ANY live action comic based movie. That show is epic.

[fujishig]

Oh man, you had to go and remind me about those horrid, toy-driven FF and Iron Man/Force Works 90's cartoons. As an aside, I thought the older, Stan Lee narrated Hulk cartoons were great as a kid.

DC, at least, is also marketing other cartoons to adults... at least, stuff like New Frontier doesn't seem like it's very kid oriented.

In Japan (where the manga market is admittedly much different), they basically just animate the exact same storylines as the comic book. When the weekly animated series catches up to the slower manga release, they have to put in filler episodes that are usually not up to par with the rest of the show. I wonder if something like that would work, if they take, say, Ultimate Spidey from the beginning and just animate it.

[dx23]

Oh man, you had to go and remind me about those horrid, toy-driven FF and Iron Man/Force Works 90's cartoons. As an aside, I thought the older, Stan Lee narrated Hulk cartoons were great as a kid.



I've been watching many episodes on Toon Disney and man they are horrible. The only decent stuff was the second season of Fantastic Four, but Iron Man, The Avengers (without Captain America, by the way), The Silver Surfer, The first season of FF are really horrible. Hulk was also decent but too corny and campy.

I've always said that the only thing Marvel has to do is hire Paul Dini and Bruce Timm and start from scratch the Marvel comics animated universe. Create a canon where everything connects, like they did with the DC animated universe. They can use the X-men as the starting point and go from there.

[The Bus]

Batman: The Animated series is one of the best animated cartoons ever made, I think. I'd put it up there with some of Disney's better output.

What always bothered me is when they "kid up" the fucking shows. No, I don't care to see Batman as a teenager with teenage problems. Even as a child, I thought that was stupid. It's what keeps me away from Teen Titans, even if it's a good show.

[fumanstan]

Fox's X-men cartoon from the 90's is simply an embarrassment to animation.

I still think it's great. In fact, i'm disappointed that no cartoon's these days put in the level of detail into the artwork and instead go with the more simplified look.

[fujishig]

I still think it's great. In fact, i'm disappointed that no cartoon's these days put in the level of detail into the artwork and instead go with the more simplified look.

Even at the time, I thought the animation was pretty bad... at least going with a simplified, stylized look like the Timmverse allowed them to keep the animation pretty consistent and fluid.

I have no idea what Marvel is doing with their cartoons... their direct-to-video releases seem horrid. I think the newest one is some Young Avengers video that has no relationship to any comic book.

[boredsilly]

I actually enjoyed that Next Avengers dtv for what it was. It wasn't groundbreaking or anything, but it was a fun elseworldsy kind of tale.

[fujishig]

So I finally watched episodes of Batman: Brave and the Bold, and Wolverine and the X-men (too many 'ands' in that sentence).

I don't see what the issue is... I think they do a good job walking the fine line between kid's show and putting in comic book references. It's not as 'adult' as JLU, but that's ok, and if it even sparks the tiniest bit of interest for comic books in kids, that'll help a ton.

I mean, think about it. Back in the 70s, we had comic book concepts converted into cartoons (who can forget "Thing Ring, do your thing!). In the last ep. of Brave and the Bold, they referenced Ted Kord's Blue Beetle, a character that couldn't even show up in JLU due to rights issues. They even tied it back to Blue Beetle 1, Dan Garrett.

[dx23]

So I finally watched episodes of Batman: Brave and the Bold, and Wolverine and the X-men (too many 'ands' in that sentence).

I don't see what the issue is... I think they do a good job walking the fine line between kid's show and putting in comic book references. It's not as 'adult' as JLU, but that's ok, and if it even sparks the tiniest bit of interest for comic books in kids, that'll help a ton.

I mean, think about it. Back in the 70s, we had comic book concepts converted into cartoons (who can forget "Thing Ring, do your thing!). In the last ep. of Brave and the Bold, they referenced Ted Kord's Blue Beetle, a character that couldn't even show up in JLU due to rights issues. They even tied it back to Blue Beetle 1, Dan Garrett.

Those 2 seem to be the exception to the rule. They are good for both kids and adults, especially, the Wolverine and the X-Men series. It's amazing that the violent Hulk Vs Wolverine even ties up to the storyline.

[fujishig]

Those 2 seem to be the exception to the rule. They are good for both kids and adults, especially, the Wolverine and the X-Men series. It's amazing that the violent Hulk Vs Wolverine even ties up to the storyline.

But those are the 2 that the OP originally complained about...

[Firestorm]

In recent years it's the animie crap style get's ovedone. The animation style in Scooby Doo on Zombie Island character wise looks a billion times better than the Batman, and Spectacular Spider Man.
In Spectacular Spider Man he looks smaller than how he's shown in Ultimate Spider Man. Come on Spider Man isn't suppose to be large however he's not suppose to look like a 12 year old.

[actionjackson29]

In recent years it's the animie crap style get's ovedone. The animation style in Scooby Doo on Zombie Island character wise looks a billion times better than the Batman, and Spectacular Spider Man.
In Spectacular Spider Man he looks smaller than how he's shown in Ultimate Spider Man. Come on Spider Man isn't suppose to be large however he's not suppose to look like a 12 year old.

I agree that the style is getting kinda of tired but, in the show isn't he supposed to be like 15?

[fujishig]

Right, the spidey in that show is a kid.

I actually kinda like the few episodes I've seen of the new Iron Man show... kinda reminds me a bit of the MTV Spidey cartoon a few years ago.

[Firestorm]

I agree that the style is getting kinda of tired but, in the show isn't he supposed to be like 15?

Ok he's suppose to be 15 but I still think they could at least make somewhat not overly small, and eyes not so big.

Other than JL, and JLU in recent years they haven't manage to make the themes, stories mainly for adults. You got plenty of fights in JL, JLU, very serious drama, and large obvious problems.

So I think that my suggestion is.
1.Decent Animation: If it's a Bruce Timm Style I can enjoy that, or a comic book type style that is decent, and not the lame animie crap.
2.Strong Non Kid Stories: It's strong written serious material not for kids but more young adults, and adults as the super villain is just as minacious, and brutal as his comicbook counterpart. Also you are just amazed by the story as you are by the ones in the comic books. It has enough substance to be entertainning.
3.Fights: Don't underplay the fights, and make them underviolent. Make it seem close to no holds bared however don't overuse blood. Also give substance as to why they are fighting. So if a savage super villain is beating up on humans it's not unlikely to think this is a strong reason for the super hero to fight the super villain that won't be reasoned with.
4.Keep True To Characters: I realize some changes have to be made but please keep true to what the characters are about, and don't do crappy depections of the characters. A example would be taking Lex Luthor from a Malevolent Criminal Mastermind to a disfigured man that hates society, and believes in punishing all of society to make them as miserable as him while enjoying it, and shooting car tires.

[fujishig]

I'm not sure I understand all your points, but you seem to want more violent superhero animation, which you're not going to get with Saturday Morning cartoons and it's ilk. Try the recent DC Superheroes DVDs, stuff like New Frontier, the recent Wonder Woman one, or the upcoming Green Lantern one. Or stuff like the recent Marvel Hulk vs. series.

I don't think this is going to reverse anytime soon... JLU was like the forgotten stepchild of Cartoon network, and these other "kiddy" superhero shows seem to be doing well. How many young adults watch superhero cartoons?

Otherwise, go watch Brave and the Bold... despite it's seemingly kiddy themes, there are tons of easter eggs for hardcore DC fans.

I also take offense to your "animie crap" comment, but I guess that's for another thread.

[calhoun07]

I also liked some of the new comic book to cartoon shows. I really enjoyed the heck out of Legion of Superheroes, Teen Titans, The Spectacular Spiderman, JLU....

I recall watching cartoons in the 80's...Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends and the old Hulk cartoon from that same era rocket to mind. I am sure there were others, but these are stunningly bad examples of comic book cartoon shows. Today's cartoons are leaps and bounds better, for the most part, compared to what I grew up with.