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Bandoman
11-12-08, 01:05 PM
:lol: ...and we're back where we started...

Th0r S1mpson
11-12-08, 01:12 PM
:lol: ...and we're back where we started...

I wish. I hear Eden is nice.

LiquidSky
11-12-08, 02:07 PM
I wish. I hear Eden is nice.

And leave it to a heterosexual couple to fuck it up. ;)

Dr Mabuse
11-12-08, 02:13 PM
I wish. I hear Eden is nice.

Yeah well...

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/itsatrap.jpg

Birrman54
11-12-08, 02:26 PM
Yet you look down on both groups, correct? Because you aren't specifying which you are talking about when you refer to all Christians as "them."

No, I don't. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Given the vast number of Christian denominations it certainly is dangerous to generalize - I was trying, within the context of the thread, to refer to those those strenuously opposed to same-sex marriage, not the entire religion as a whole.

I have no problem with people expressing their freedom to worship how they see fit.

Venusian
11-12-08, 03:08 PM
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20081112/NEWS01/811120369

A radical gay rights group is claiming responsibility for a protest Sunday at Mount Hope Church in Delta Township.

Protesters who entered the Creyts Road church along with worshippers surprised the congregation when they stood up during the service, threw fliers at churchgoers and shouted slogans such as "It's OK to be gay," and "Jesus was a homo," according to David Williams, communications director at the church. His father, Dave Williams, is the church's longtime pastor. He was not preaching at the church Sunday.


I don't think stuff like this helps the cause

Th0r S1mpson
11-12-08, 03:08 PM
Looks like CT just gave gay couples the ability to obtain marriage status as well. They had civil union laws previously that offered the same rights, but now they can also get married... a similar path that CA followed but it will not be overturned as readily by voters. We'll see if this one sticks. I would imagine so.

kvrdave
11-12-08, 03:42 PM
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20081112/NEWS01/811120369

A radical gay rights group is claiming responsibility for a protest Sunday at Mount Hope Church in Delta Township.

Protesters who entered the Creyts Road church along with worshippers surprised the congregation when they stood up during the service, threw fliers at churchgoers and shouted slogans such as "It's OK to be gay," and "Jesus was a homo," according to David Williams, communications director at the church. His father, Dave Williams, is the church's longtime pastor. He was not preaching at the church Sunday.


I don't think stuff like this helps the cause

:lol: Changing hearts and minds one church at a time.

Dr Mabuse
11-12-08, 03:45 PM
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20081112/NEWS01/811120369

A radical gay rights group is claiming responsibility for a protest Sunday at Mount Hope Church in Delta Township.

Protesters who entered the Creyts Road church along with worshippers surprised the congregation when they stood up during the service, threw fliers at churchgoers and shouted slogans such as "It's OK to be gay," and "Jesus was a homo," according to David Williams, communications director at the church. His father, Dave Williams, is the church's longtime pastor. He was not preaching at the church Sunday.


I don't think stuff like this helps the cause

It further reveals the reality of the 'acceptance' and 'discrimination is always wrong' crowd.

Hypocritical, bigoted, hateful, etc. All the names they so eagerly throw at other groups describe them so well.

:lol: Changing hearts and minds one church at a time.

:lol:

Groucho
11-12-08, 03:49 PM
"Jesus was a homo."

"Oh, well then. With that fine logic I guess I *do* support gay marriage!"

But I disagree with Mabuse that these nuts are representative of all gay marriage proponents.

LiquidSky
11-12-08, 03:51 PM
It further reveals the reality of the 'acceptance' and 'discrimination is always wrong' crowd.

Hypocritical, bigoted, hateful, etc. All the names they so eagerly throw at other groups describe them so well.

Yeah. Because of one group of radicals. Nice generalization :rolleyes:

Breakfast with Girls
11-12-08, 04:06 PM
This is ridiculous, of course, but my point is that we shouldn't have to argue the Bible, or around it. The Bible should have nothing to do with whether any particular group is "allowed" their civil rights.Of course. But making Biblical arguments in favor is easy.

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" And Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. <strong>There is none other commandment greater than these.</strong>"

That seems pretty cut and dry to me. After the love of God, the greatest commandment is to have compassion and empathy toward your fellow man. How someone can go on to read the Sermon on the Mount, for example, and conclude that denying true happiness to others is something that Christ would have done is beyond me.

kvrdave
11-12-08, 04:11 PM
:up:

orangecrush
11-12-08, 04:18 PM
Of course. But making Biblical arguments in favor is easy.



That seems pretty cut and dry to me. After the love of God, the greatest commandment is to have compassion and empathy toward your fellow man. How someone can go on to read the Sermon on the Mount, for example, and conclude that denying true happiness to others is something that Christ would have done is beyond me.
like he did with the rich young ruler? ;)

kvrdave
11-12-08, 04:22 PM
like he did with the rich young ruler? ;)

:lol: But he didn't ask how others should be treated, he asked what he needed to do to follow Jesus.

RunBandoRun
11-12-08, 04:29 PM
I prefer referring to them as "those people", myself.

How can you even say that, and then ask "those people" to understand you?

People like you, who are just as intolerant in YOUR way as Moral Majority types are in theirs, are a big reason I have little use for the organized "gay community" these days. Ninety percent of the world is heterosexual. You have to live in that world, so it's better to try to get along with people than to delight (as far too many gay people do) in shocking and antagonizing them.

LiquidSky
11-12-08, 04:32 PM
How can you even say that, and then ask "those people" to understand you?

People like you, who are just as intolerant in YOUR way as Moral Majority types are in theirs, are a big reason I have little use for the organized "gay community" these days. Ninety percent of the world is heterosexual. You have to live in that world, so it's better to try to get along with people than to delight (as far too many gay people do) in shocking and antagonizing them.


I agree that we should all try to get along but I'm not going to stand by like some milquetoast and let people walk all over me.

RunBandoRun
11-12-08, 04:35 PM
I agree that we should all try to get along but I'm not going to stand by like some milquetoast and let people walk all over me.

I agree that you shouldn't let people insult or abuse you, but automatic assumptions like I've seen TB and others make, before you even know someone, are just as bad coming from gay/lesbian people as they are from anyone else. So is branding anyone who disagrees with you a "homophobe."

kvrdave
11-12-08, 04:37 PM
How can you even say that, and then ask "those people" to understand you?

People like you, who are just as intolerant in YOUR way as Moral Majority types are in theirs, are a big reason I have little use for the organized "gay community" these days. Ninety percent of the world is heterosexual. You have to live in that world, so it's better to try to get along with people than to delight (as far too many gay people do) in shocking and antagonizing them.

It may have been angry humor, but I read it as TB's attempt at humor. Kind of a McCain "that one" type twist to open our eyes.

Dr Mabuse
11-12-08, 04:42 PM
"Jesus was a homo."

"Oh, well then. With that fine logic I guess I *do* support gay marriage!"

But I disagree with Mabuse that these nuts are representative of all gay marriage proponents.

Did I say "all" anywhere? Have you not heard or seen what's been popping up at Prop 8 protests all over California? It's not "all", nor is it a "few".

Some interesting stuff about Christians, Mormons, blacks, lots of 'love' being spread around.

Yeah. Because of one group of radicals. Nice generalization :rolleyes:

Yeah 'radicals' popping up all over CA in protests.

Come on. :rolleyes:

Tracer Bullet
11-12-08, 04:57 PM
How can you even say that, and then ask "those people" to understand you?

People like you, who are just as intolerant in YOUR way as Moral Majority types are in theirs, are a big reason I have little use for the organized "gay community" these days. Ninety percent of the world is heterosexual. You have to live in that world, so it's better to try to get along with people than to delight (as far too many gay people do) in shocking and antagonizing them.

rotfl

Way to spot humor, baby!

RunBandoRun
11-12-08, 05:01 PM
rotfl

Way to spot humor, baby!

I've seen your bitchy side way too many times to call that "humor." It's like someone who deliberately says hateful things, then claims to be teasing.

kvrdave
11-12-08, 05:01 PM
rotfl

Way to spot humor, baby!

Don't call me baby. :grunt:

Tracer Bullet
11-12-08, 05:08 PM
I've seen your bitchy side way too many times to call that "humor." It's like someone who deliberately says hateful things, then claims to be teasing.

Since I have absolutely no respect for you, I don't really care. Think whatever you want. :shrug:

Tracer Bullet
11-12-08, 05:08 PM
Don't call me baby. :grunt:

How about "my little pomegranate"?

RunBandoRun
11-12-08, 05:11 PM
Since I have absolutely no respect for you, I don't really care. Think whatever you want. :shrug:

Ditto.

Nick Danger
11-12-08, 08:21 PM
Of course. But making Biblical arguments in favor is easy.



That seems pretty cut and dry to me. After the love of God, the greatest commandment is to have compassion and empathy toward your fellow man. How someone can go on to read the Sermon on the Mount, for example, and conclude that denying true happiness to others is something that Christ would have done is beyond me.

Oh, fooey. I tried that argument when I was a naive young man. The response is that people's temporary happiness while living a sin is not as important as saving their souls from an eternity in Hell. They are being compassionate.

kvrdave
11-12-08, 08:24 PM
The "tough love" argument. I always counter that tough love should show some resemblence to love.

Dr Mabuse
11-12-08, 08:58 PM
The "tough love" argument. I always counter that tough love should show some resemblence to love.

Ah...

The ol' "tough love should show some resemblance to love" argument.

I always counter that with Christ made himself a weapon and beat the hell of people he was angry with.

Well... that, or the 'never decide how much acid to take while you are stupid drunk' argument.

kvrdave
11-12-08, 09:09 PM
:lol: I recommend you take a little less than whatever amount you just tried.

Dr Mabuse
11-12-08, 09:20 PM
:lol: I recommend you take a little less than whatever amount you just tried.

:lol:

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/oreillyacid.jpg

kvrdave
11-12-08, 09:29 PM
:lol:


Seriously, I get your point. Mine was that those who claim "tough love" pay lip service to it if called on it, but don't practice it.

al_bundy
11-13-08, 07:33 AM
Of course. But making Biblical arguments in favor is easy.



That seems pretty cut and dry to me. After the love of God, the greatest commandment is to have compassion and empathy toward your fellow man. How someone can go on to read the Sermon on the Mount, for example, and conclude that denying true happiness to others is something that Christ would have done is beyond me.

from what i remember the conservative Jews at the time were homophobic and hated the greeks who practiced homosexuality a bit. And Jesus was on the side that didn't like the greeks and romans

Bronkster
11-13-08, 10:01 AM
So, you're saying Jesus didn't like the Greeks and Romans because they practiced homosexuality? No other reasons? :hscratch:

wendersfan
11-13-08, 10:05 AM
OK, that fake O'Reilly book cover is the funniest thing ever.

rotfl

kvrdave
11-13-08, 10:08 AM
from what i remember the conservative Jews at the time were homophobic and hated the greeks who practiced homosexuality a bit. And Jesus was on the side that didn't like the greeks and romans

What indication is there that Jesus didn't like the Greeks and Romans? He healed a Roman's daughter. The parable of the Good Samaritan also seems to go against that.

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 10:10 AM
Are we seriously talking about Jesus' opinion of gays?

Okay, I may be going out on a limb here, but here's how I see it. He would have cared for their needs, asked us to look after them if they were sick. He would have sat down and had dinner with them as he did with other sinners (as we all are). He would have loved them. But he most certainly would have warned them against indulging in their homosexual desires and to instead focus their love and thoughts towards God and their fellow man in non-sexual ways. But since we don't have access to Jesus' voting record in the US with regard to legalizing gay marriage, I'm not sure it's particularily relevant. He would have loved them whether married or not, but I highly doubt he would ever say "Yes! Gay marriage should be permitted!" He probably would have sat this vote out and let the rest of the population decide. But please don't try to spin the second most important commandment as somehow meaning we as Christians should condone any behavior that makes someone "happy" in order to live at peace with them. You may not like the "tough love" argument but in the end there is great validity to it. Whether people practice it properly is surely up for debate. Surely we cannot legislate meaningful change in conveying Christ's message. That is done through personal relationships. But this issue is a curious mix of moral and legal acceptance. Through the law, gays seek the latter, but ultimately they seek the former. And from what I have experienced, they do not particularly care for the "hate the sin, not the sinner" argument.

LiquidSky
11-13-08, 10:15 AM
Perhaps Jesus would have also warned these so-called "Christians" to quit focusinig so deeply and indulging in their disapproval of gays and instead focus their love and thoughts towards God and their fellow man including gay folks.

kvrdave
11-13-08, 10:19 AM
Are we seriously talking about Jesus' opinion of gays?

Okay, I may be going out on a limb here, but here's how I see it. He would have cared for their needs, asked us to look after them if they were sick. He would have sat down and had dinner with them as he did with other sinners (as we all are). He would have loved them. But he most certainly would have warned them against indulging in their homosexual desires and to instead focus their love and thoughts towards God and their fellow man in non-sexual ways. But since we don't have access to Jesus' voting record in the US with regard to legalizing gay marriage, I'm not sure it's particularily relevant. He would have loved them whether married or not, but I highly doubt he would ever say "Yes! Gay marriage should be permitted!" He probably would have sat this vote out and let the rest of the population decide. But please don't try to spin the second most important commandment as somehow meaning we as Christians should condone any behavior that makes someone "happy" in order to live at peace with them. You may not like the "tough love" argument but in the end there is great validity to it. Whether people practice it properly is surely up for debate.

Not sure how Jesus would vote. Know that God gave the speech to Adam and Eve and let them "enjoy" free will. God's tough love was letting them live with their decision. Is that not an example to follow?

I also know that those that are opposed to gay marriage do not seem to act like you believe Jesus would act towards them. (and I am generally in agreement with that belief.)

spainlinx0
11-13-08, 10:20 AM
Why is gay sex a sin? Forgive me for questioning the almighty but WHY is it a sin?

I understand the sin of premarital sex. I understand adultery. So why not apply the same rules to gay sex. A sin only outside of marriage. What is it that is so inherently sinful about GAY sex as opposed to straight sex? Is the fact that you cannot produce children the sin? That sex is ONLY for procreation even though it feels good?

The producing children argument always makes me think of religious people as cattle. Just keep producing babies who can keep tithing and keep expanding our monolothic church. It's kind of creepy.

kvrdave
11-13-08, 10:24 AM
Why is gay sex a sin? Forgive me for questioning the almighty but WHY is it a sin?

I understand the sin of premarital sex. I understand adultery. So why not apply the same rules to gay sex. A sin only outside of marriage. What is it that is so inherently sinful about GAY sex as opposed to straight sex? Is the fact that you cannot produce children the sin? That sex is ONLY for procreation even though it feels good?

The producing children argument always makes me think of religious people as cattle. Just keep producing babies who can keep tithing and keep expanding our monolothic church. It's kind of creepy.

Do you really not know why it would be argued that the Bible says it is a sin, or is it just something you wouldn't agree with no matter the reasoning?

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 10:28 AM
Not sure how Jesus would vote. Know that God gave the speech to Adam and Eve and let them "enjoy" free will. God's tough love was letting them live with their decision. Is that not an example to follow?

Yes, yes it is.

al_bundy
11-13-08, 10:29 AM
What indication is there that Jesus didn't like the Greeks and Romans? He healed a Roman's daughter. The parable of the Good Samaritan also seems to go against that.


there is a difference between helping a person and disliking someone's culture. but who really knows what the situation was?

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 10:29 AM
Why is gay sex a sin? Forgive me for questioning the almighty but WHY is it a sin?

You'll have to question the almighty on that one.

spainlinx0
11-13-08, 10:36 AM
Do you really not know why it would be argued that the Bible says it is a sin, or is it just something you wouldn't agree with no matter the reasoning?

I honestly am curious about the reasoning, yes. I understand the Sodom and Gomorroh story. I understand taking anything to excess. But two men, married, having gay sex. Why is that considered a sin? Is it simply because they cannot reproduce naturally?

Venusian
11-13-08, 10:43 AM
The bible doesn't say sex is only for making babies. If it did, Song of Songs probably wouldn't have made the cut.

ON Sodom and Gomorroah, this is what their sin was:

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

It wasn't gay sex that did them in.

Tracer Bullet
11-13-08, 10:44 AM
Non-procreative sex is a sin because it feels good and makes people want to stay home and screw and not go give money to the church.

al_bundy
11-13-08, 10:51 AM
I honestly am curious about the reasoning, yes. I understand the Sodom and Gomorroh story. I understand taking anything to excess. But two men, married, having gay sex. Why is that considered a sin? Is it simply because they cannot reproduce naturally?


its a sin because desert nomads from 3000bc said it was a sin when their priests wrote the stories that ended up in the OT

kvrdave
11-13-08, 10:55 AM
The bible doesn't say sex is only for making babies. If it did, Song of Songs probably wouldn't have made the cut.


rotfl

Exactly.

kvrdave
11-13-08, 10:56 AM
Non-procreative sex is a sin because it feels good and makes people want to stay home and screw and not go give money to the church.

One might make that case based on Catholic tradition, but you won't make it using a biblical argument.


New thread time? 800+ posts.

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 10:57 AM
It's a matter of self-indulgence. Like porn. Doesn't affect anyone but yourself.

Mark_vdH
11-13-08, 11:00 AM
Are we seriously talking about Jesus' opinion of gays?

Okay, I may be going out on a limb here, but here's how I see it. He would have cared for their needs, asked us to look after them if they were sick. He would have sat down and had dinner with them as he did with other sinners (as we all are). He would have loved them. But he most certainly would have warned them against indulging in their homosexual desires and to instead focus their love and thoughts towards God and their fellow man in non-sexual ways. But since we don't have access to Jesus' voting record in the US with regard to legalizing gay marriage, I'm not sure it's particularily relevant. He would have loved them whether married or not, but I highly doubt he would ever say "Yes! Gay marriage should be permitted!" He probably would have sat this vote out and let the rest of the population decide. But please don't try to spin the second most important commandment as somehow meaning we as Christians should condone any behavior that makes someone "happy" in order to live at peace with them. You may not like the "tough love" argument but in the end there is great validity to it. Whether people practice it properly is surely up for debate. Surely we cannot legislate meaningful change in conveying Christ's message. That is done through personal relationships. But this issue is a curious mix of moral and legal acceptance. Through the law, gays seek the latter, but ultimately they seek the former. And from what I have experienced, they do not particularly care for the "hate the sin, not the sinner" argument.
I am sure Jesus, as conveyed in the Bible, would think it's a sin. However, the thought that he would say anything relevant to 'permitting' marriage or 'voting' for it is beyond me. The thing I 'learned' through 20 (not kidding) years of attending Catholic schools, is that having the desire to sin but not being able to due to the actions of others, is just as good a sin. Jesus never tied people up to prevent them from sinning. Just inform people about what you believe is right, but let them choose and facilitate whatever they want to do (as long as they don't intrude on the rights of other people). And let God be the judge.

I've often heared people say that "if God does not exit, then everything is permitted" (supposedly Dostoevsky said this). They could not have been farther from the truth, IMO. I see it the opposite way: if God does exist, then everything is permitted.

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 11:02 AM
having the desire to sin but not being able to due to the actions of others, is just as good a sin. Jesus never tied people up to prevent them from sinning.

And nobody is saying that homosexuality should be outlawed, either.

Mark_vdH
11-13-08, 11:04 AM
And nobody is saying that homosexuality should be outlawed, either.No, just suppressed.

Th0r S1mpson
11-13-08, 11:06 AM
Spainlinx0's question actually outlines this very well.

"I understand the sin of premarital sex. I understand adultery. So why not apply the same rules to gay sex. A sin only outside of marriage."

Because we do not make the rules when it comes to God's law. And attempting to "sanctify" homosexual sex under the title of legal marriage does not cover the sin. It only makes it more acceptable by society.