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View Full Version : Our voting system sucks (Please let this election be undisputed!)


Thor Simpson
10-24-08, 03:46 PM
This thread isn't for election tampering. It's for election incompetence. With all of the tools at our disposal, you would think we could get this one right. Kind of important, one woud think?

Long lines I can accept. But some of this is just beyond absurd. When did they begin testing?

(CNN) -- In many states across the country, voting has begun, and in some cases, so have the headaches.

Long lines of early voters have been reported in several states across the country.

With the issues that marred the 2000 election singed into the electorate's collective memory, the reports of problems are troubling signs for many who are skeptical of whether their votes will count.

Forty-two percent of those surveyed in a recent CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll said they were not confident that their votes could be "accurately cast and counted." That number is up 15 percentage points from a similar poll conducted four years ago.

The poll was conducted October 17 through October 19 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

As of Tuesday, 29 states were accepting early ballots, and election officials are reporting record turnouts. Voting problems, ranging from computer glitches to long lines, have been reported in a few states. Read about how the early voting numbers suggest a historic turnout may be in store

Florida has switched to its third ballot system in the past three election cycles, and glitches associated with the transition are causing headaches and long lines, election officials said. The state went back to using paper ballots this year after trying out touch screens.

"We're having problems with the poll machines," a voter in Jacksonville, Florida, told the CNN Voter Hotline. "They're not aligned correctly, so you're not sure about which candidate you're voting for (NOT AGAIN! -eek-), so they said they brought in 10 new machines as backup machines, but they've corrected the issue."

CNN Voter Hotline
If you have a problem voting or see a problem, call the CNN Voter Hotline at 877-GOCNN08 (1-877-466-2608); CNN will report on some of your calls and our partner, InfoVoter Technologies, can help get you in touch with your election board or find your voting location. Part of the trouble stems from having to train election workers for the new system, said Buddy Johnson, the elections supervisor for Florida's Hillsborough County.

"When you've got brand new equipment and you're shifting from a touch screen, a digital system, to a more paper-oriented system, as we are this year, it's a familiarization process," he said.

Early voters are waiting for hours to cast their ballots as a result of the transition.

In Broward County, 17 of approximately 300 polling places are open for early voting, which ends November 2.

"Total disaster," said a voter in Florida's Broward County. "You get up there, and you waited three hours, and then the line totally stops. It's very frustrating."

On Monday night, one Broward County polling site closed at 10:30 p.m., three hours past the scheduled time, reported CNN's Sean Callebs. Watch Florida voters endure the long lines »

High turnout was causing long lines in other states, including North Carolina, Ohio and Nevada, states that are key to the electoral strategies of Barack Obama and John McCain's campaigns.

If early tallies are indicative of overall voter interest, it raises the question of whether states and counties are prepared for what might be a historic turnout on Election Day.

Voting machine troubles in West Virginia

In West Virginia's Jackson County, there were some reports that voting machines were accidentally recording the wrong vote.

"I went in there and pushed the Democrat ticket, and it jumped to the Republican ticket for president of the United States," said Calvin Thomas, an 81-year-old West Virginian. iReport: Tell us about your early voting experience

Thomas has voted in West Virginia in every election since Harry Truman defeated Thomas Dewey in 1948.

The same thing happened to his daughter, Micki Clendenin, when she cast her ballot. In both cases, poll workers at the site had them touch the screen a few more times, and the voting machine changed their ballot to their candidate choice.

"The lady came in, and she was -- very nicely, she just said, 'it's just been doing that.' She said, 'just hit it again.' So we hit it again, and this time it did go to Obama," Clendenin said.

CNN's Brian Todd reported that at least five voters in two West Virginia counties said they encountered the same problem. State and local officials said that they were isolated cases and that poll workers fixed the problems so the correct vote was cast.

The machines were manufactured by an Omaha, Nebraska-based company, Election System and Software. The machines will be used in several states this year and were among those that had problems in Ohio in 2004.

The company said that it has inspected the machines in West Virginia and that no one there has cast an inaccurate vote. [You sure 'bout that?]

The West Virginia secretary of state's office said most of the problems occur because the machines are not calibrated properly. Jeff Waybright, the Jackson County clerk, disagreed and said the problems reported there were probably the result of voter error.

"There are no problems with the machines as recalibrated," West Virginia Secretary of State Betty Ireland said Wednesday, according to an Associated Press report. "Touch-screen voting in West Virginia is accurate and secure."

Ireland directed the state's county clerks to recalibrate their machines each morning during the early voting period and on Election Day.

In Georgia's Fulton County, several polling sites apparently lost their connections to the state's voter database, causing some long wait times for voters.

"We live in a country that can send a guy to the moon, but they can't get the computers up, so it's very discouraging for me," voter Quentin Cottrell told WGCL, an Atlanta-based news outlet. Read the full WGCL report

The Georgia secretary of state's office told CNN that the glitches were intermittent connectivity problems that did not involve voting machines. Election officials said the problems have been resolved.


Georgia Secretary of State Karen Handel said the long lines were the result of robust turnout, generated by a high level of interest in the election.

"I'll be candid: Voters should expect some wait time," she said. "Voters understand that this is a truly historic election."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/24/voting.problems/index.html

orangecrush
10-24-08, 03:50 PM
I just read a posting on Engadget stating that some people just released a paper on how to hack some of the new voting machines. What a joke.

Groucho
10-24-08, 03:55 PM
Unless things are close (and I don't think they will be) there will be some grumbling and whining, but I don't predict a dispute like we had in 2000.

Dr Mabuse
10-24-08, 04:06 PM
I was trying to make this an issue in NM in 2003, we actually got channel 7 to come out and broadcast us showing very clearly a Diebold machine getting most votes wrong.

Several groups did the same things nationally.

No one gave a shit. The lazy, apathetic US public couldn't have cared less.

The US voters deserve fixed and corrupt elections till they get off their lazy asses and do something about it as far as I'm concerned.

Yes those machines have no self audit, and are surprisingly flawed. I proved that with a group here back in ~2003. Diebold responded to MANY documented cases of votes being incorrect in the 2004 election by eliminating the paper trail that revealed the errors, and by changing their company name to 'Premier Election Systems'. The 30 second memory of the appallingly ignorant public would not notice the change and would think the 'Diebold' problem they vaguely remember seeing mentioned once on TV was gone.

It worked. Those machines are everywhere now. And yes anyone with a USB thumb drive could upload a virus to change votes in all of 30 seconds.

The current models have an 'internal paper trail' for auditing purposes, but this of course doesn't give any info on whether that voter ACTUALLY chose the votes recorded, just how many took place.

More info in the internet about this than you would care to read, going back to 2001.

Tracer Bullet
10-24-08, 04:32 PM
This is why, in areas that use electronic voting machines, it's important that tech-savvy people volunteer on Election Day.

Pharoh
10-24-08, 04:37 PM
Meh. It's one of the two least important elections in my voting lifetime, if not the least. Things will be okay.

JOE29
10-24-08, 04:38 PM
It doesn't get any better from NJ. Reports are that these machines can be easily hacked into also.

orangecrush
10-24-08, 04:48 PM
This is why, in areas that use electronic voting machines, it's important that tech-savvy people volunteer on Election Day.
I would say that is why it is important to have paper records of each individual vote. They should print out after you vote, so you can check the accuracy. I am just dumbfounded as to why these machines can not be 100% accurate.

Groucho
10-24-08, 04:52 PM
I would say that is why it is important to have paper records of each individual vote. They should print out after you vote, so you can check the accuracy.This is how the machines they use in my district work.

Tracer Bullet
10-24-08, 04:53 PM
I would say that is why it is important to have paper records of each individual vote. They should print out after you vote, so you can check the accuracy. I am just dumbfounded as to why these machines can not be 100% accurate.

Well, yeah, but it's a little late to fix it for November 4.

Thor Simpson
10-24-08, 04:58 PM
Well, yeah, but it's a little late to fix it for November 4.

One would presume they were working on these issues at least a few months ago. But maybe I'm overly presumptuous.

orangecrush
10-24-08, 05:02 PM
One would presume they were working on these issues at least a few months ago. But maybe I'm overly presumptuous.
Does cashing checks and spray painting old computers so they look like voting machines count as work?

wishbone
10-24-08, 05:05 PM
http://i33.tinypic.com/73m1w9.png

Mordred
10-24-08, 05:25 PM
Meh. It's one of the two least important elections in my voting lifetime, if not the least. Things will be okay.I had heard it was the most important election of my, or anybody else's, lifetime. So I will just assume you are wrong.

Dr Mabuse
10-24-08, 05:27 PM
One would presume they were working on these issues at least a few months ago. But maybe I'm overly presumptuous.

They went to paperless years ago.

Thor Simpson
10-24-08, 05:30 PM
They went to paperless years ago.

Voting with the three seashells?

Pharoh
10-24-08, 05:32 PM
I had heard it was the most important election of my, or anybody else's, lifetime. So I will just assume you are wrong.


:lol:


Thanks.

Dr Mabuse
10-24-08, 05:53 PM
There is SO much info available on the web that is FAR more damning stuff than is in the OP article.

and there are major problems with the other electronic voting machines, videos are on Youtube showing demonstrations. One 3 man team showed they could take apart and replace the ROM's and reassemble a voting machine in 60 seconds, then they need only become involved at voting locations for access.

Diebold accidentally published the actual software, the OS of the machine to the web, and the schematics of the machines themselves. They posted in a photo on their home page the universal unlocking keys(a very simplistic sort of key to begin with) that open the cases on every voting machine, and working copies of the keys were made from the photo. There are videos on Youtube showing home made key copies opening the voting machines. This guy from Princeton made working keys with hand files and a bench vise, and they opened the machines. http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/link.gif (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4066)

The problem go back for years. Premier/Diebold isn't "working" on anything. At all. There are articles in these searches from 2003 and farther back, my first experience with this stuff was back in 1999/2000 and very little has changed since.

Just scan/skim through the first 20-30 articles from this search. http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/link.gif (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=diebold+voting+machines&btnG=Search)

Again just scan/skim thought the first 20-30 articles here. http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/drmabuse06/Forum%20comments/link.gif (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=diebold+new+name&btnG=Search)

aZws98jw67g

Tracer Bullet
10-24-08, 07:49 PM
One would presume they were working on these issues at least a few months ago. But maybe I'm overly presumptuous.

Yeah, probably.

sracer
10-24-08, 08:13 PM
Interesting how the "it is your obligation as a citizen to vote. Every vote is sacred" crowd stands by and just accepts the situation year after year. If ATMs conducted transactions as insecurely as most voting machines you'd never attempt withdraw a single penny from one.

kvrdave
10-24-08, 08:19 PM
Ours are all paper ballot and you can go in and watch the auditor put them through the scanner individually on election night. :lol:

I don't think this election will be close enough for it to matter or close enough for anything to change.

Ronnie Dobbs
11-05-08, 10:00 AM
I heard about a lot of screw ups at polling places but not enough to decide the elcetio like in 2000.

mosquitobite
11-05-08, 10:37 AM
Indiana (at least in my area) has paper ballots with optical scanners to count them. To me, that seems like the best arrangement.

jfoobar
09-08-09, 10:21 PM
Well, how about this?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/09/diebold-elects-to-get-out-of-the-voting-machine-business.ars

Diebold impeaches e-voting unit, sells it off for $5 million
By Ryan Paul | Last updated September 4, 2009 8:13 AM CT

Electronic voting machine vendor ES&S has acquired Premier Election Solutions, Diebold's e-voting subsidiary. Diebold reveals that it has been looking for options to leave the business since 2006 and is now selling off the whole unit for $5 million.

Diebold announced on Thursday that it has sold its voting machine division to Election Systems & Software (ES&S), a former competitor. Diebold's unceremonious departure from the electronic voting machine business will be welcomed by critics of the company's controversial direct-recording electronic voting products.

Diebold, which is primarily an ATM maker, decided to unload its voting machine subsidiary—Premier Election Solutions—for roughly $5 million and change. As a consequence of the deal, the company expects to report a loss of over $45 million. According to a statement issued by Diebold, the company has been looking for a way out of the voting machine racket ("pursuing strategic alternatives to ownership") since 2006 when it realized that the whole endeavor was intractably dysfunctional ("identified its US elections systems business as non-core to its operations").

Over the years, security research and a number of real-world voting disasters have demonstrated unambiguously that Diebold's voting machines are deeply flawed and completely unfit for use. Diebold machines have been responsible for dropping votes and derailing elections in several states, including Ohio and Alaska. These high-profile failures and repeated findings of low reliability and poor security during tests have compelled several states to ban Diebold voting machine products. The company has also been sued for a wide range of misconduct associated with its voting machine business, including fraud and even GPL infringement.

Diebold's political impartiality has also been broadly questioned, particularly in the aftermath of the leak of a 2003 letter in which former CEO Wally O'Dell, a highly active fundraiser for George Bush's relection campaign, wrote that he was committed "to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President." The controversy generated by the letter was a major factor that compelled him to resign and leave the company in 2005.

The veritable flood of negative PR resulting from Diebold's consistent voting machine screw-ups have been problematic for the company. The voting machines accounted for less than 3 percent of Diebold's total revenue for 2008 and yet threatened to undermine the company's reputation and credibility, potentially harming its core business as an ATM vendor. This is the reason why analysts have been predicting for the past two years that Diebold would eventually have to dump its e-voting business, a possibility that the company first publicly acknowledged in its 2006 SEC filing.

Although Diebold will no longer sell voting machines, the sale to ES&S will ensure that Diebold's flawed voting machine products will live on. ES&S suffers from some of the same afflictions as Diebold, as its own products have also been found to exhibit serious security flaws. ES&S was caught illegally selling counties uncertified voting machines in California in 2007, a misdeed that elicited a sharp response from California Secretary of State Debra Bowen.

Electronic voting machine vendors have consistently failed to deliver products that are secure, reliable, and worthy of the electorate's trust. An official statement from ES&S suggests that we can expect to see more of the same as it integrates Diebold's former voting machine subsidiary into its business.

"Moving forward, all of our customers will get the same great level of service they have come to expect," said ES&S CEO Aldo Tesi. "This acquisition is an opportunity to continue fulfilling our company's core mission of maintaining voter confidence, and enhancing the voting experience."

We can almost feel the renewed confidence surging through our bodies. Or maybe that's just bile rising in our throats.

Lemdog
09-09-09, 11:53 AM
In West Virginia's Jackson County, there were some reports that voting machines were accidentally recording the wrong vote.

I can say with all due confidence that Jackson is not the only county in West Virginia were the voting may be a little off. :lol:

wendersfan
09-09-09, 12:16 PM
I can say with all due confidence that Jackson is not the only county in West Virginia were the voting may be a little off. :lol:You don't say. :lol: