Everybody loves a poll. So who won -- Goose or Maverick?

Palin kicked ass! And I love Biden, honestly, Biden vs. McCain I vote for Biden, I wish he was the democratic nominee. I think the Saturday morning polls are going to be very interesting.

They're all winners!

Not the American people.

Dan Quayle clearly won because he wasn't there and he didn't say nucular.

I think Senator Biden did a little better, but mainly that's because Governor Palin annoys the crap out of me.

They both did an excellent job. Biden actually answered questions and said what needs to be done. Palin avoided answering questions very well with double talk and confidence. She is hot, but Biden answered questions. If McCain loses, Palin should seriously consider a career acting...or in porn.

And how nice it was of the Palin family to overdress a baby (regardless of being mentally handicapped or not) - that baby was seriously sweating. Good strategy there, Republicans.

Dan Quayle clearly won because he wasn't there and he didn't say nucular.

But did he wink? ;)

I think Senator Biden did a little better, but mainly that's because Governor Palin annoys the crap out of me.
Gee whiz wenders, that's just because you're looking backwards.

But did he wink? ;)
He didn't do anything. A perfect performance.

They're all winners!

:lol: good stuff

by the way, if I drank every time they said "partisanship," I'd need a new liver right now. Also, "maverick" is making me question why I decided to.......living rooms....bedrooms.....dinettes..........

Biden came off far more confident to me, at ease and ready to tackle the issues. EVERYTHING about Palin came off to me as extremely well rehearsed (which we all know it was...come on..) and from the very beginning to the end I didn't really see her loosen up and very little of her came through to me. And she just struck me as nervous the entire time...swallowing deep after each answer and immediately retreating to her notes.

While she managed to choose her words carefully and watch out for the land mines, I think she did it at the expense of showing the American public that she can actually think on her own two feet for herself. I honestly didn't feel like it was Sarah Palin talking to us tonight, and that's been what has bugged me from the get-go with her. At the RNC, she was just a series of sound bytes and had nothing cohesive to say and tonight it was evident to me that she was just parroting what was told to her by McCain's senior advisers.

Biden was clear and concise on most his points, and while he did stumble a few times here and there, I think he held his ground and was the superior debater. He was able to think on his feet and tackle new subjects as they came up. Palin? If it wasn't in her notes, she avoided it.

Palin? If it wasn't in her notes, she avoided it.

Smile, wink, and fall back on energy and Alaska. :)

Biden owned this debate. palin couldn't answer any questions while Biden answered ALL questions asked.

Biden came off far more confident to me, at ease and ready to tackle the issues. EVERYTHING about Palin came off to me as extremely well rehearsed (which we all know it was...come on..) and from the very beginning to the end I didn't really see her loosen up and very little of her came through to me. And she just struck me as nervous the entire time...swallowing deep after each answer and immediately retreating to her notes.

While she managed to choose her words carefully and watch out for the land mines, I think she did it at the expense of showing the American public that she can actually think on her own two feet for herself. I honestly didn't feel like it was Sarah Palin talking to us tonight, and that's been what has bugged me from the get-go with her. At the RNC, she was just a series of sound bytes and had nothing cohesive to say and tonight it was evident to me that she was just parroting what was told to her by McCain's senior advisers.

Biden was clear and concise on most his points, and while he did stumble a few times here and there, I think he held his ground and was the superior debater. He was able to think on his feet and tackle new subjects as they came up. Palin? If it wasn't in her notes, she avoided it.

Well stated.

I agree that Biden won the debate - but by how much? I'm actually concerned more than anything by the fact Palin spoke to the camera so well (which might gain her some favorable points for viewers at home) whereas Biden seemed to be speaking more to the audience.

From this side of the soccer field, I'd say Biden won. You betcha.

by the way, if I drank every time they said "partisanship," I'd need a new liver right now. Also, "maverick" is making me question why I decided to.......living rooms....bedrooms.....dinettes..........

Or every time you heard the words "kitchen table."

Yeah, I think Biden had all the confidence on the floor. Palin didn't do horrible, but I think it's safe to say that she didn't pick up any more votes for McCain tonight.

Amazingly, all the commentators I saw on NBC were saying Palin won by a mile.

I think Biden was far more coherent and passionate.

{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN
25% 32,244
PALIN
73% 93,765
NEITHER
2% 2,427

Total Votes: 128,436

Amazingly, all the commentators I saw on NBC were saying Palin won by a mile.

I think Biden was far more coherent and passionate.

The media will say what ever they can to try and make this race close. When Clinton had no shot at winning it was why can't Obama close the deal. Now that Palin read some index cards it is she won by a mile and that the polls will be alot closer now.

Last debate I voted for Senator Twikoff, this time, it was Biden beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yes she gave semi-coherent responses but too many "also's" and "maverick's." When it came to Biden, he repeated the keypoints in concise form, speaking into the Camera but also glancing at the audience, and he not only answered the questions but he then turned to how his ticket was different than John McCain.

That part where he totally pwned her about how he didn't know how to raise a family will be pointed to in the days to follow.

Biden owned this debate. palin couldn't answer any questions while Biden answered ALL questions asked.

Except for the one about their Achille's heel. Both of them spent the time saying how great they were - the opposite of the question.

You really got a sense that Biden understood the stuff he was talking about. Even more than Obama. And I don't like Biden's policy positions on a lot of items. But hell, the dude sounded very competent and smart and like he knew his shit.

I got a sense that Palin was parroting memorized talking points, and if it wasn't in her memorized list, she ignored the question and plowed on to whatever memorized point she felt like repeating.

Me.

I think the Republicans are just satisfied that she didn't make any serious flubs. She did sound a bit like a broken record in parts, and she seems to be incapable of giving a direct answer to anything. But in the debates, it's less about what you say than how you say it. So I'll give credit to her for not embarrassing herself. But her responses were the equivalent of empty calories. She was unable to challenge Biden on any of his responses that disputed her "facts" and simply resorted to repeating what she said the first time around. It's like she memorized 4 varying responses for 10 topics and then pick and chose among them. When the topic didn't quite fit what she wanted, she would somehow turn it back to something she was more comfortable with.

Biden was outstanding and I was very happy to see him put Palin in her smug place on the issue of raising a family as if that was the exclusive province of a hockey mom. I actually had a tear in my eye as he choked up about that. This was actually the first time I've heard Biden speak and I was actually REALLY impressed. I wasn't expecting to be.

Well stated.

I agree that Biden won the debate - but by how much? I'm actually concerned more than anything by the fact Palin spoke to the camera so well (which might gain her some favorable points for viewers at home) whereas Biden seemed to be speaking more to the audience.

According to Fox News, Palin won. According to real news sources, according to American viewers, about 52% think Biden won. In the UK (and I forget exactly which news site I looked at to get this number...I was just doing some quick Google searches a few minutes ago) over 80% think Biden won.

Which makes me wonder why so many thought Palin did so well tonight?

Biden seemed a lot more confident and like he was responding to questions. Palin kept going back to "talking points" and not answering the question. Still, she did much better than she did on that Katie Couric interview.

Yeah, I just read on wiki that he had a wife and daughter die in a car accident. He doesn't work on Dec 18 for remembrance.

{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN
25% 32,244
PALIN
73% 93,765
NEITHER
2% 2,427

Total Votes: 128,436

These disparities interest me...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26995439

Joe Biden
53%
Sarah Palin
37%
Tie
4.4%
Not sure
5.6%

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/poll/2008/oct/03/palin.biden.debate.election


Who won the US vice-presidential debate?

Joe Biden and Sarah Palin met in St Louis on Thursday night for the vice-presidential debate. Who came out ahead?

* guardian.co.uk,
* Friday October 03 2008 03:49 BST

20.2% Sarah Palin
79.8% Joe Biden

Not that the UK poll is going to say a lot to American news commentators, but you'd think the NBC reporters would at least look at their own website and report the numbers from there.

Which makes me wonder why so many thought Palin did so well tonight?

Because she didn't humiliate herself and was able to answer a few questions. It's pretty much the best her supporters could've hoped for, in light of her recent performances.

But Fox reporting her winning... :lol: Give me a break.

I think a lot depends on how much people pay attention to the analysis over the net few days. On the surface, it was a draw, but I think Governor Palin's answers, while they sounded superficially good, were very shallow, and if the analysis over the next few days points that out, she's in trouble.

Biden probably did a little better, but Palin did just fine. Since the expectations were so low for her, I voted for a tie.

Biden probably did a little better, but Palin did just fine. Since the expectations were so low for her, I voted for a tie.Dammit Groucho, you can't grade on a curve. That's sexist! :grunt:

I think a lot depends on how much people pay attention to the analysis over the net few days. On the surface, it was a draw, but I think Governor Palin's answers, while they sounded superficially good, were very shallow, and if the analysis over the next few days points that out, she's in trouble.

I obviously didn't watch, but come on. Could they really have been that much more shallow than Senator Biden's? From my perspective?



And time for a small rant. They really pre-empted The Office for these two clowns?

calhoun I'll give you a hint.

Drudge readers sway right.

MSNBC readers sway way left.

Guardian readers sway way left.

DVDTalk posters sway left.

Not surprising all the polls fall exactly along party lines.

calhoun I'll give you a hint.

Drudge readers sway right.

MSNBC readers sway way left.

Guardian readers sway way left.

DVDTalk posters sway left.

Not surprising all the polls fall exactly along party lines.


I thought DVDTalk was full of neocons?

DVDTalk posters sway left.Actually, this is not true until recently. Most of the Republican snarkiness has died down because there isn't much to be snarky about anymore. Iraq has stagnated, the economy sucks, and Palin is embarrassing.

I think that Biden won the debate.

Early in the debate I was giving it to Palin who was doing a passable job. Biden seemed a little robotic. Then about midway through the debate all that changed. Biden seemed to come alive on issues about foreign policy. Palin seemed to see a little too gimmicky with her answers and expressions. Biden impressed me with his command of the issues the next President and Vice President of the US will face.

I obviously didn't watch, but come on. Could they really have been that much more shallow than Senator Biden's? From my perspective?

Yes. She spoke in sound bites, to the point where she explicitly said she wasn't going to answer the moderator's questions, chosing instead to put forth pre-fabricated talking points. Senator Biden at least addressed the questions asked of him (for the most part).

She's also taking a fair amount of heat (on MSNBC, so I know it's not a fair sample) for her criticism of Senator Biden misquoting "General McClellan." She actually meant General McKiernan, and Senator Biden was correct in his characterization of the General's statement (or more correct than Governor Palin, anyway).

Objectively, even though Palin didn't embarrass herself (too much), Biden absolutely obliterated her in the debate. Palin kept throwing out obviously rehearsed catch-phrases and incorrect, outdated statistics - she did well parroting back the things she was coached on, but she didn't understand the things she was saying and could not go into any detail whatsoever. Biden actually made points and, agree or not, helped viewers understand his ticket's stance on the issues discussed.

Palin's "Say it ain't so Joe" line was so pathetically transparent as an attempt to get a quotable zinger I couldn't believe it...and was delivered poorly. it was obvious she had that in her pocket and he never gave her an opening so she just through it out there at some random point. Sums up the entire performance - which is precisely what it was. she had a script and she stuck to it questions be damned. It was pathetic.

Actually, this is not true until recently. Most of the Republican snarkiness has died down because there isn't much to be snarky about anymore. Iraq has stagnated, the economy sucks, and Palin is embarrassing.

:shrug: I don't post much in the politics forum because the Republican candidate sucks. I hate McCain, and I only think he would be marginally better than Obama. That doesn't really light a fire under me to debate the issues; combine that with the overwhelming snarkiness and smugness coming from the left, and it makes for an unpleasant posting experience.

Palin's "Say it ain't so Joe" line was so pathetically transparent as an attempt to get a quotable zinger I couldn't believe it...and was delivered poorly. it was obvious she had that in her pocket and he never gave her an opening so she just through it out there at some random point.

Agreed. She had her "Boston Harbor" attempt and just dumped it off, and it was lame.

Biden had one too ("Bridge to nowhere"), and it drew a response from the crowd, because it was well played.

And doggone shucks, did she mention that she was a maverick? Really she is. And so is McCain. They're mavericks, I tellya. Mavericks. Did she mention they were mavericks? :lol:

Palin did a lot better than I thought she would. I thought if she just didn't fall down she would be winner, but Biden was a lot better. Palin biggest problem was she only answered the questions she was well rehearsed on. As noted by others she pretty much stated she was just going to answer what she wanted. Biden on the other hand answered all questions.

She probably got some voters that were going to stay home to come and vote for her but she didn't move anyone onto her side. Biden on the other hand probably pulled some voters from McCain.

...the overwhelming snarkiness and smugness coming from the left, and it makes for an unpleasant posting experience.:whofart: You're JOKING, right? So what you're saying is that you can dish it, but you can't take it.

The wife and I watched, she wanted to make a drinking game after I pointed out how often Sarah used the word "also" to connect her ideas. If that had happened, we'd both be dead from alcohol poisoning.

She did do much better than I expected, but it was completely rehearsed, the GOP must have strapped her down to a chair a la Robot Chicken to get the talking points in place.

I only wish they had discussed abortion and Intelligent design, two things she thinks so strongly about, allow her to defend these ideas in the court of public opinion.

While Biden tear'ing up when talking about his boys struck a chord, I cynically must think this was for dramatic effect as he has been a Senator for so long.

All in all, a much more enjoyable debate than McCain/Obama 1.

Hey, so where are the posts protesting how biased Ifill was? Yeah...

Seriously...how could any of you guys say that Dan Quale did NOT win this debate?

Hey, so where are the posts protesting how biased Ifill was? Yeah...

They're with all the posts complaining about Obama's race. Oh, yeah...it is Obama's camp that keeps bringing it up, not the conservatives....

As for Republican "snarkiness", no danger that liberals would ever be snarky by discussing Palin's accent or folksy expressions. No, liberal posters would never condescend to such an elitist tactic.

It is funny to see how (predictably) the resulting impressions from the debate fall along preconceived notions about the respective candidates.

Although the liberal posters seem to overwhelmingly feel that the debate was a slam-dunk for Biden, the following might be noted:

(1) As mentioned by a Biden supporter above, Joe was brimming with self-confidence...so much that he mostly mentioned what "he" would do (or what "he & Barack" would do) and even once referred to himself in the third person. Interesting to note that his "Achilles heel" is his "passion" for doing the right thing. No self-aggrandizement there.

It's good to be the king.

(2) Biden appeared to be doped up on downers for about 2/3 of the debate. At one point it appeared that he was getting really tired and he began stumbling over answers. However, he did recover toward the end.

(3) According to some fact-checkers, Biden lied several times regarding McCain's voting record (indicating that he voted along with Obama on several issues) or distorted his own voting record or statements he had made. Those points will be proven or disproven over the next couple of days, but the protesters were pretty emphatic regarding the falsehoods (which were not "interpretations" of facts but rather blatant misrepresentations).

(4) The assertion that Biden answered all the questions is correct if one allows for patently false answers. In other words, does one get credit for answering questions with falsehoods?

(5) For those who say that Biden answered "all the questions" (I guess that means the questions from Ifill), did he explain to your satisfaction the differences in his opinions vs. Obama's (his support for the war...which was a 'war resolution' despite his statement to the contrary), his opposition to clean coal, etc.)? What about Biden's own criticisms of Obama which Biden made during the Dem. primaries? Did Biden ever acknowledge how he would commit military forces in all the places where he (according to citation by Ifill) said he intended to use US military force?

(6) For those who wanted to see Palin defend her views on abortion, did you also want to see Biden defend his Catholic views that life begins at conception and how he squares that with his campaign's support for abortion on demand?

(7) Thought that Biden sounded a little ridiculous when he went on that repetitive litany comparing McCain to Bush (can't remember the exact words, but he went over and over and over the point until the horse was not only beaten to a pulp but obliterated into dust...and it sounded really silly in the context of a debate).

In the interest of fairness (which is obviously not required of posts in this thread), I thought Biden did very well (discounting his disregard for the truth at times in order to make political hay) in the debate. Although he was incredibly boring in his delivery for most of the debate, that is much preferred to his penchant for enthusiastically delivering gaffe after gaffe on the stump, so he gets major points there. He also scored some points when he almost choked up talking about his personal tragedies regarding raising his two severely-injured sons after the tragic accident that claimed his wife and one child. I thought that was totally honest and a very touching, human moment. A couple of commentators mentioned that it would have been the major point of discussion had Palin done that...and would have been seen either as a cynical ploy or an example of feminine weakness. I would hope that wouldn't be the case, but I'm afraid that the commentators (liberal, by the way) are right. However, it is good to see that Biden could do it without being criticized for showing his human side.

Biden also looked Presidential and like someone who could carry off the office. Then, so did Dick Cheney in his VP debates, so I don't know how far that one can trust gravitas.

Although I disagree with the platforms of his party, I thought Biden appeared very likeable and knowledgeable.

And...in fairness, Palin had her moments of avoiding answering questions from Biden regarding McCain's record (although it might be preferable to do this rather than simply distorting the record or resorting to outright lies). She did overdo some of the acting (winks, attempts at humor), although I woul

Palin's "Say it ain't so Joe" line was so pathetically transparent as an attempt to get a quotable zinger I couldn't believe it...and was delivered poorly. it was obvious she had that in her pocket and he never gave her an opening so she just through it out there at some random point. Sums up the entire performance - which is precisely what it was. she had a script and she stuck to it questions be damned. It was pathetic.

sadly true.

Biden: "Let's talk about the failed Bush administration policies regarding Israeli and Palestinian relations..."

Pailn: energy independence...I'm a governor...maverick...hockey...energy...MAVERICK...BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP DOES NOT COMPUTE

:rolleyes:

Biden looks normal until the camera hits him from a slight angle, then his brow looks really weird. Palin looks good, but she stared too much into the camera and seemed to be shaking a little bit (nerves?)

I'd give the slight edge to Biden, but I don't think this debate will change many opinions. While Palin may have strayed off topic, it seems like Biden flipped around words/people too many times. Palin's best moment was the Drill Baby Drill correction and Biden using the 10 years until something happens line didn't help him (will alternative energy produce results next year?) she should have hammered him more on that.

I think the most damaging thing for Palin is the same thing with McCain; the constantly claiming McCain is bipartisan while trying to hammer Obama/Biden for agreeing with him and at the same time saying they are partisan.

I saw none of the debate; therefore, I won't comment on who won.

I do have a question from a clip of one of Biden's answers I heard this morning on the sujbect of Iraq: 'I voted to give the president the power to use force. I didn't want him to go into Iraq.'

Will that answer now sell with Obama? It didn't during the primary debate when Hillary used virtually the same argument?

I understand the 'difference.' I don't believe the fervent antii-war contingent in the Democratic Party will.

I also saw a clip of one of Palin's answers on Iraq. 'Sen. Biden wants to waive the white flag of surrender.'

That remark probably will sell to the fervent supporters of the war.

I thought it was the typical cheap,& untrue, remark made by people who are opposed to any plan by the opposition to end our involvement in the War in Iraq.

I understand the 'difference.' I don't believe the fervent antii-war contingent in the Democratic Party will.Not sure what your point is here. Is that contingent going to defect to McCain?

CNN gave Palin a B, A, A, B, C. That's pretty damn good for how badly everyone thought she would do. As for me, I won because I didn't watch this crap.

I thought the point was perfectly clear.

I believe you're being deliberately obtuse. ;)

Hillary's answer didn't sell with the fervent anti-war contingent of the Democratic Party.

Will Biden's answer sell with the fervent anti-war contingent of the Democratic Party? It's virtually the same argument that Hillary used. Is that answer now 'o.k.' with that wing of the Democratic Party? Will Obama, who clearly rejected that same argument in the primary, now embrace it since his running mate has used it?

btw: I notice you didn't comment on the Palin remark. You seem to understand that point very well. Do I detect some rank political partisanship in your response & non-response? :)

I didn't realize 'til now that I was on a leftist forum. How disheartening. anyway, everyone sees what they want to see. Overall I disagree with All The Above.

I didn't notice anything in posts 53, 54, & 57 that were particulary 'leftist.'

Perhaps you could show me the light. ;)

I also saw a clip of one of Palin's answers on Iraq. 'Sen. Biden wants to waive the white flag of surrender.'

That remark probably will sell to the fervent supporters of the war.

I thought it was the typical cheap,& untrue, remark made by people who are opposed to any plan by the opposition to end our involvement in the War in Iraq.

By the same token, Biden implying that McCain doesn't want to end the war in Iraq is equally cheap & untrue.

Because she didn't humiliate herself and was able to answer a few questions. It's pretty much the best her supporters could've hoped for, in light of her recent performances.

But Fox reporting her winning... :lol: Give me a break.

It's sad to think that's all it takes these days. All she had to do to impress people was appear more intelligent than Katie Couric and Tina Fey, i.e. didn't fuck up = win. -ohbfrank- To be worthy of the VP you need to do more than read from a script and do a passable job.

From the few clips I saw this morning I didn't see the Biden remark about McCain not wanting to end the war.......................

It's sad to think that's all it takes these days. All she had to do to impress people was appear more intelligent than Katie Couric and Tina Fey, i.e. didn't fuck up = win. -ohbfrank- To be worthy of the VP you need to do more than read from a script and do a passable job.


I don't know what you mean by 'worthy.'

I could argue that neither presidential candidate was 'worthy.' However, I would think that would be both rather politically & practically a naive position to take.

I didn't realize 'til now that I was on a leftist forum. How disheartening. anyway, everyone sees what they want to see. Overall I disagree with All The Above.Thank you for your powerful counter arguments. :lol:

Plain came across as too rehearsed with her answers then mix in her voice along with words like Doggone it.

What is wrong with the expression 'doggone it?'

...along with words like Doggone it.

I just figured that was her attempt to connect with "Joe Sixpack."

What is wrong with the expression 'doggone it?'

Nothing, if you're a hayseed.

Nothing, if you're a hayseed.

Get outta here!

This isn't a formal college debate with real debate rules. This is a political event whose purpose is to woo the voter.

I assume you consider 'Joe Sixpack' a hayseed. :rolleyes:

:shrug: I don't post much in the politics forum because the Republican candidate sucks. I hate McCain, and I only think he would be marginally better than Obama. That doesn't really light a fire under me to debate the issues; combine that with the overwhelming snarkiness and smugness coming from the left, and it makes for an unpleasant posting experience.
Pretty much.

I assume you consider 'Joe Sixpack' a hayseed. :rolleyes:

Whatever. "Joe Sixpack" and "Doggonit" were a just a few of Palin's many generic, lame attempts to try to connect with some stereotypical, Nascar-lovin' everyman (or hockey/soccor mom), since her best bet at "winning" was to try to seem personally appealing-- substance be damned. If she's lucky, maybe none of them noticed that her cram-sessioned, canned answers only occasionally fit the questions she was asked.

You Betcha! :lol:

as opposed to you New York elitisits :lol:

From the few clips I saw this morning I didn't see the Biden remark about McCain not wanting to end the war.......................

Biden implied it pretty strongly I thought. He repeated a couple of times, something to the effect of "It's a fundamental difference between Obama and McCain. Obama will end this war. McCain has voted against any plan to end the war in Iraq." (paraphrasing of course)

Truth is everyone wants the war to end, but everyone has their own terms by which they want it to end. Fact is there is already a plan to bring many U.S. troops home and have the Iraqis take over. Biden/Obama act as if this is a new idea...(transferring responsibility to the Iraqis).

My general opinion of how Biden performed in the debate is pretty good. He did at times want to hammer the "I told you so" about the war even though he voted for it, which seemed kind of scummy to me.

From the few clips I saw this morning I didn't see the Biden remark about McCain not wanting to end the war.......................

just out of curiosity, why didn't you watch?

just out of curiosity, why didn't you watch?
So that he can ask questions. Like the Seinfeld episode, "Summer of George". ;)

Please change the "Biden" and "Palin" options on this poll to "I'm a Democrat" and "I'm a Republican." ;)

Biden came off far more confident to me, at ease and ready to tackle the issues. EVERYTHING about Palin came off to me as extremely well rehearsed (which we all know it was...come on..) and from the very beginning to the end I didn't really see her loosen up and very little of her came through to me. And she just struck me as nervous the entire time...swallowing deep after each answer and immediately retreating to her notes.

While she managed to choose her words carefully and watch out for the land mines, I think she did it at the expense of showing the American public that she can actually think on her own two feet for herself. I honestly didn't feel like it was Sarah Palin talking to us tonight, and that's been what has bugged me from the get-go with her. At the RNC, she was just a series of sound bytes and had nothing cohesive to say and tonight it was evident to me that she was just parroting what was told to her by McCain's senior advisers.

Biden was clear and concise on most his points, and while he did stumble a few times here and there, I think he held his ground and was the superior debater. He was able to think on his feet and tackle new subjects as they came up. Palin? If it wasn't in her notes, she avoided it.

Well put. When she didn't know (or didn't want to answer the question), which was a number of times, she'd go back to Energy, or, my favorite:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Ford_Maverick_Grabber.jpg

With that said, Palin did well for her target audience of moms across the nation. They don't care as much for the specifics, but rather see her as a cheerful and outgoing person, talking like joe six pack.

Also, while i think Biden won, Palin would get the boost (or at least it'll slow down the bleeding) simply because the bar was set so low a toddler could jump over it.

Please change the "Biden" and "Palin" options on this poll to "I'm a Democrat" and "I'm a Republican." ;)

what about those who voted for Mr. Potatoe [sic] head?

just out of curiosity, why didn't you watch?

I haven't watched a pres. or vp debate since 1992.

I don't believe they have any real meaning.

They're hardly entertaining. ;)

So that he can ask questions. Like the Seinfeld episode, "Summer of George". ;)

I know what the partisans are going to say.

I absolutely know what the rank partisans are going to say.

I want to hear from the few non-partisans we have on this forum as to what their opinion is.

I would find their opinions to be more 'realistic,' shall we say. ;)

I voted Quayle because I thought it was a tie.

Palin did fine, but she could have done so much more if she had been aggressive.

After Biden first spoke, I would have said, "I will concede and encourage people to vote for Obama on every ballot in which he is running against George Bush. You say you are about the future, but you're still running against the past. And I understand that you are doing it because your polls show that is a winning strategy, and I can understand that given the approval ratings for George Bush. But you know who has worse approval ratings? Congress. A historic vote just took place in the Senate. Perhaps the most important vote in this generation. The majority party has their presidential nominee and vice presidential nominee in the Senate, and you could have shown some leadership and made that bill anything you wanted. it would have passed, and you would be the hero behind it. Instead, the candidate of "change" went into Washington and voted for a bill that had 110 Billion in pork attached to it. That isn't change, that is Washington politicians doing the same politics in Washington. John McCain is part of the minority party and had to make a decision, 'is this bill more important than the pork attached to it?' He decided it was and I agree with him. But please don't tell me about leadership and change when you still think you are running against George Bush and you just got done voting for an emergency bill that had 110 Billion in pork attached to it."


I'm not saying I agree with everything I just put in there, but she could have buried him, imo, but she just went for a simple little debate.

I haven't watched a pres. or vp debate since 1992.

I don't believe they have any real meaning.

They're hardly entertaining. ;)


What amazes me is that there are people who decide who to vote for based on debating skills, and not the candidtes positions or policies. If Satan won a debate against Christ half of America would vote for Satan.

I don't believe that these so-called debates exhibit any real debating skills.

If they did, that would at least be something.

What amazes me is that there are people who decide who to vote for based on debating skills, and not the candidtes positions or policies. If Satan won a debate against Christ half of America would vote for Satan.Only if Satan winked at the audience, said "golly gee" a lot, and of course asked Christ if he could call him "Jesus" (assuming Satan speaks Latin and not Greek or Hebrew, of course).

wendersfan,

As a reasonably non-partisan fellow, I would appreciate your views on the VP debate - if you watched it. You might even give them even if you didn't watch it. ;)

I want to hear from the few non-partisans we have on this forum as to what their opinion is.Hopefully you think I fall into this camp.

Will Biden's answer sell with the fervent anti-war contingent of the Democratic Party? It's virtually the same argument that Hillary used. Is that answer now 'o.k.' with that wing of the Democratic Party? Will Obama, who clearly rejected that same argument in the primary, now embrace it since his running mate has used it?I don't think it will sell with the fervent anti-war contingent, but they sure as hell aren't going to vote for McCain so they'll keep that opinion to themselves (similar to the Republicans who feel it's unpatriotic to criticize Palin). Also, and you may think I'm stupid for saying this, but I don't think the war matters that much to voters right now. Due to the surge, things are going a lot better there than they have in the past, no one seems to care much about Afghanistan and Pakistan and there's a huge financial crisis looming at home. The white flag of surrender line was stupid as was Biden's criticism of McCain having no idea of when we'd leave Iraq. I don't think Biden effectively rebutted Palin on that line either, although he might not have been given the chance. I can't remember this morning.

In my opinion Biden "won" but Palin effectively took the focus off herself. I realize I'm not the target demographic for her, but when she's trying to be cute and folksy she sounds like a 2nd grade teacher talking to little kids. I should know, my mom used to be a teacher and she uses that exact same voice. When she just talked like a normal person in a debate, she did fine (at least presentation wise).

I've heard some question whether Biden getting choked up was genuine and I find that rather disheartening. It's amazing how cynical we've become as a country. My wife told me she's heard him get choked up and have to stop interviews for a few moments on the subject before. It was enough to make me think he's a good guy, no matter what I think of his policies.

wendersfan,

As a reasonably non-partisan fellow, I would appreciate your views on the VP debate - if you watched it. You might even give them even if you didn't watch it. ;)I did watch it. Objectively Biden did better. He didn't lose his cool, he didn't ramble (much) and he didn't say anything grossly inaccurate. But Palin exceeded expectations to the point where, if anyone gains because of this it will be the GOP. She was relatively coherent and she was certainly charming and likable. As the debate wore on she started to run off the rails a bit, and you could start to tell that she was pretty heavily coached and was starting to run out of memorized responses, to the point where she became overly repetitive and at one point fairly nonsensical. If it had been a 60-minute debate she would have won handily, but for 90-minutes she was uneven.

I wonder if you could coach Biden?


Thank you for that seemingly fair assessment wendersfan.

"<i>Seemingly</i> fair" :lol:

I tried. ;)

In your opinion, did they both meet the 'expectations game?'

I believe that's probably the most important thing that comes out of these debates.

Don't you want my outside observer, relatively unbiased opinion too? :)

In your opinion, did they both meet the 'expectations game?'Absolutely.

Biden.

Where Palin comes across as a college student who crammed her head so full of material the night before she couldn't wait to quickly spew it out, Biden came off as cool and collected, because he already KNEW what he needed to. Palin had to be told.

I"m sorry, Killer, you seem too much of a partisan for me.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go along with wendersfan.

:)

Don't you want my outside observer, relatively unbiased opinion too? :)

No

Don't you want my outside observer, relatively unbiased opinion too? :)

You're obviously biased in favor of Palin, who would normalize America's relations with Canada with her vast experience in the area.

Harsh. :(

What's funny is that we are also having a (Federal) election and there was a debate between the party leaders on Canadian tv at the same time as the VP debate. I got bored after a few minutes and switched to the VP debate. :lol:

Don't you want my outside observer, relatively unbiased opinion too? :)

:lol: I just want to know how much work it will be for you to get your opinion down to "relatively unbiased." :D

Harsh. :(

What's funny is that we are also having a (Federal) election and there was a debate between the party leaders on Canadian tv at the same time as the VP debate. I got bored after a few minutes and switched to the VP debate. :lol:

Don't you guys have Spongebob Squarepants? That was my flip channel. Stupid kids kept wanting to watch the Discovery Channel, but parents need to guide them.

You're obviously biased in favor of Palin, who would normalize America's relations with Canada with her vast experience in the area.

Did she say she could see Inukvik (Northern Quebec) from her window too? :)

Did she say she could see Inukvik (Northern Quebec) from her window too? :)

I think the exact quote was "When Harper rears his head, where does he go? You betcha, it's Alaska!"

Harsh. :(

What's funny is that we are also having a (Federal) election and there was a debate between the party leaders on Canadian tv at the same time as the VP debate. I got bored after a few minutes and switched to the VP debate. :lol:Wait - Canada has elections? When did this happen?

:lol: I just want to know how much work it will be for you to get your opinion down to "relatively unbiased." :D

:lol: Not that much really. I did not have any particular inclination to favor one candidate over the other. But since you insist. :D

So as far as executing their strategy (Palin repairing her tainted image and connecting with "regular folks", Biden trying to show that McCain=Bush), both achieved what they set out to do, so a tie there. In terms of knowledge of issues and answering questions, there were no major gaffes but Biden showed superior grasp of said issues (but probably lost some viewers on occasion) while Palin did well on energy but not so much on the economy and foreign policy where she often fell back on energy/"what I did for Alaska"/"I'm not a Washington insider so I represent change" when she was out of her depth. So slight edge to Biden there.

So as far as executing their strategy (Palin repairing her tainted image and connecting with "regular folks", Biden trying to show that McCain=Bush), both achieved what they set out to do, so a tie there. In terms of knowledge of issues and answering questions, there were no major gaffes but Biden showed superior grasp of said issues (but probably lost some viewers on occasion) while Palin did well on energy but not so much on the economy and foreign policy where she often fell back on energy/"what I did for Alaska"/"I'm not a Washington insider so I represent change" when she was out of her depth. So slight edge to Biden there.

I wish to change my no to yes.

That's a reasoned answer.

Wait - Canada has elections? When did this happen?

Minority governments (the Conservative party only holds 40% of the seats) don't last very long, usually a year, a year and a half at most before some other party(s) ask for a vote of no confidence and pushes for an election. This time however, seeing favorable poll results, it was Stephen Harper who argued that Parliament was getting increasingly dysfunctional and on Sept. 7th asked the Governor General to dissolve Parliament and call a federal election on October 14, 2008.

See, we can wrap this up in just over a month. :)

The biggest WTF moment for me last night was when Biden said something about changing the principle on the defaulting mortgage loans. Anyone know what the hell that's about?

I would like my principle to be 10k. That seems patriotic to me.

I've heard some question whether Biden getting choked up was genuine and I find that rather disheartening. It's amazing how cynical we've become as a country. My wife told me she's heard him get choked up and have to stop interviews for a few moments on the subject before. It was enough to make me think he's a good guy, no matter what I think of his policies.Outside of a partisan hack I do not see how anyone can question Sen Biden at that moment as being anything but genuine.

That being said, it would have been interesting if Sen Biden had truly lost his composure and Gov Palin walked over and gave him a reassuring pat on the back.

I wish to change my no to yes.

That's a reasoned answer.

Well thanks. :)

Outside of a partisan hack I do not see how anyone can question Sen Biden at that moment as being anything but genuine.

That being said, it would have been interesting if Sen Biden had truly lost his composure and Gov Palin walked over and gave him a reassuring pat on the back.Biden/Palin '12?

Biden/Palin '12?That would be Joe/Sarah '12 ;)

Minority governments (the Conservative party only holds 40% of the seats) don't last very long, usually a year, a year and a half at most before some other party(s) ask for a vote of no confidence and pushes for an election. This time however, seeing favorable poll results, it was Stephen Harper who argued that Parliament was getting increasingly dysfunctional and on Sept. 7th asked the Governor General to dissolve Parliament and call a federal election on October 14, 2008.Uh, thanks. :lol:

Outside of a partisan hack I do not see how anyone can question Sen Biden at that moment as being anything but genuine.

That being said, it would have been interesting if Sen Biden had truly lost his composure and Gov Palin walked over and gave him a reassuring pat on the back.I found Palin's response to be revealing. She essentially brushed it aside, smiled broadly at the camera, and repeated how McCain has been the consummate "maverick" in Senate. At best, she didn't know how to respond. At worst, it reveals a cold-hearted person.

Wait - Canada has elections? When did this happen?

Yes, they have elections. They just have no representation in Congress.

Yes, they have elections. They just have no representation in Congress.As long as they have representation in the Bundesrat. It's where it's at.

(Groan)

Yes, they have elections. They just have no representation in Congress.

that's ok, so long as they aren't taxed.

I found Palin's response to be revealing. She essentially brushed it aside, smiled broadly at the camera, and repeated how McCain has been the consummate "maverick" in Senate. At best, she didn't know how to respond. At worst, it reveals a cold-hearted person.

I think that demonstrated how poor a politician Governor Palin is (and you can take that as a criticism of her or praise of her, as you will). Say what you want about Vice President Cheney, I thought his handling of the discussion of his daughters' sexuality during the debate with Senator Edwards was masterful.

IFILL: The next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President.

I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: "Freedom means freedom for everybody." You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions. And you used your family's experience as a context for your remarks.

Can you describe then your administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?

CHENEY: Gwen, you're right, four years ago in this debate, the subject came up. And I said then and I believe today that freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they want. It's really no one else's business.

That's a separate question from the issue of whether or not government should sanction or approve or give some sort of authorization, if you will, to these relationships.

Traditionally, that's been an issue for the states. States have regulated marriage, if you will. That would be my preference.

In effect, what's happened is that in recent months, especially in Massachusetts, but also in California, but in Massachusetts we had the Massachusetts Supreme Court direct the state of -- the legislature of Massachusetts to modify their constitution to allow gay marriage.

And the fact is that the president felt that it was important to make it clear that that's the wrong way to go, as far as he's concerned.

Now, he sets the policy for this administration, and I support the president.

IFILL: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.

EDWARDS: Yes. Let me say first, on an issue that the vice president said in his last answer before we got to this question, talking about tax policy, the country needs to know that under what they have put in place and want to put in place, a millionaire sitting by their swimming pool, collecting their statements to see how much money they're making, make their money from dividends, pays a lower tax rate than the men and women who are receiving paychecks for serving on the ground in Iraq.

Now, they may think that's right. John Kerry and I do not.

We don't just value wealth, which they do. We value work in this country. And it is a fundamental value difference between them and us.

Now, as to this question, let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.

And I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and so does John Kerry.

I also believe that there should be partnership benefits for gay and lesbian couples in long-term, committed relationships.

But we should not use the Constitution to divide this country.

No state for the last 200 years has ever had to recognize another state's marriage.

This is using the Constitution as a political tool, and it's wrong.

IFILL: New question, but same subject.

As the vice president mentioned, John Kerry comes from the state of Massachusetts, which has taken as big a step as any state in the union to legalize gay marriage. Yet both you and Senator Kerry say you oppose it.

Are you trying to have it both ways?

EDWARDS: No. I think we've both said the same thing all along.

We both believe that -- and this goes onto the end of what I just talked about -- we both believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.

But we also believe that gay and lesbians and gay and lesbian couples, those who have been in long-term relationships, deserve to be treated respectfully, they deserve to have benefits.

For example, a gay couple now has a very difficult time, one, visiting the other when they're in the hospital, or, for example, if, heaven forbid, one of them were to pass away, they have trouble even arranging the funeral.

I mean, those are not the kind of things that John Kerry and I believe in. I suspect the vice president himself does not believe in that.

But we don't -- we do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

And I want to go back, if I can, to the question you just asked, which is this constitutional amendment.

I want to make sure people understand that the president is proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage that is completely unnecessary.

Under the law of this country for the last 200 years, no state has been required to recognize another state's marriage.

Let me just be simple about this. My state of North Carolina would not be required to recognize a marriage from Massachusetts, which you just asked about.

There is absolutely no purpose in the law and in reality for this amendment. It's nothing but a political tool. And it's being used in an effort to divide this country on an issue that we should not be dividing America on.

We ought to be talking about issues like health care and jobs and what's happening in Iraq, not using an issue to divide this country in a way that's solely for political purposes. It's wrong.

IFILL: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.

CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that very much.

IFILL: That's it?

CHENEY: That's it.

There's something really creepy about a hot 40-something calling a 72 y.o. grandpa "maverick" over and over.

I know what the partisans are going to say.

I absolutely know what the rank partisans are going to say.




I thought my orignal statement needed to be repeated. :)

There's something really creepy about a hot 40-something calling a 72 y.o. grandpa "maverick" over and over.
http://images.hollywoodgrind.com:9000/images/2008/5/james-garner-stroke.jpg

In addition to my observation above, I will add that I thought Biden won on substance. I was remarkably impressed with how well Palin did given her Couric interview where she came off as 'slow'. As others have said, the bar was above the heel for her, so of course she had a lot of upside potential. I still keep coming back to Matt Damon's comment about her being like this Disney mom sent to Washington (ala Gidget goes to Washinton) or something. I thought Biden did a great job for the most part. All in all, pretty much a draw.

The biggest WTF moment for me last night was when Biden said something about changing the principle on the defaulting mortgage loans. Anyone know what the hell that's about?

I would like my principle to be 10k. That seems patriotic to me. Ditto. I didn't like that either. Surprised this is the first place I've seen it mentioned.

In addition to my observation above, I will add that I thought Biden won on substance. I was remarkably impressed with how well Palin did given her Couric interview where she came off as 'slow'. As others have said, the bar was above the heel for her, so of course she had a lot of upside potential. I still keep coming back to Matt Damon's comment about her being like this Disney mom sent to Washington (ala Gidget goes to Washinton) or something. I thought Biden did a great job for the most part. All in all, pretty much a draw.

Substance is over-rated. I don't need someone spewing factoids. Give me Sincerity, Character, Political Will, and a Outsider's viewpoint on all the shenanigans going on in Washington. Hopefully, Palin and maybe Obama will shake up the govt from the crud it is buried under, i.e lobbyists, corruption, greed, hidden agendas...

Well we can hope can't we?

Actually, this is not true until recently. Most of the Republican snarkiness has died down because there isn't much to be snarky about anymore. Iraq has stagnated, the economy sucks, and Palin is embarrassing.

Yeah and finally I can browse the political discussions without shaking my head in disgust. It feels good to be right about all the crap I argued against so many against 4 years ago. :banana:

DVDTalk has shifted quite a bit left- that is until there is a child-abuse thread, then all of a sudden everyone wants to enact the death penalty (themselves).

Anyways. those polls are just who people support, not who won- no matter what they are labeled. Conservatives aren't going to admit their side is at fault- that's what makes them who they are. Sarah Palin could have sung nursery rhymes the whole time and the people on her side would have thought she was groundbreaking.

It's pretty clear that Biden debated while Palin nodded her head up and down to read her notes. Anyone impartially who thinks she won, was not watching the debate.

Palin, but only because the expectations were set so low for her and she exceeded them.

It's pretty clear that Biden debated while Palin nodded her head up and down to read her notes. Anyone impartially who thinks she won, was not watching the debate.

67% of DVDTalkers. Case closed.

Substance is over-rated.

Sounds like the new RNC slogan to me

Sounds like the new RNC slogan to me

Not at all. Who says that Obama/Biden have anymore substance that McCain/Palin. No party has a lock or claim on that.


As far as views that Palin read her notes and Biden didn't - he nodded down more than up - is slamming wrongly.

I was chuckling when Palin said "Well, I've only been at this five weeks". That doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence. Imagine you were on an operating table and the doctor said that to you. "Well, Ima gonna cutchya open and see what I find in there".

- Obama/Biden '08 -

Biden won the debate. Too bad his policies are wrong.

I was chuckling when Palin said "Well, I've only been at this five weeks". That doesn't exactly install a lot of confidence. Imagine you were on an operating table and the doctor said that to you. "Well, Ima gonna cutchya open and see what I find in there".

- Obama/Biden '08 -

Nothing wrong with that! She's come a long way; just think what 5 months or 5 years will bring. You think Barack brings more to the operating table???!!

There's a lot wrong with that both for her and what it says about McCain, and yes I do.

Nothing wrong with that! She's come a long way; just think what 5 months or 5 years will bring. You think Barack brings more to the operating table???!!

He brings hope - that non-quantifiable, almost mystical ray of light that if you question, you are either racist or un-American.

He brings hope - that non-quantifiable, almost mystical ray of light that if you question, you are either racist or un-American.You forgot change.

You forgot change.

At least change people don't need a definition for, it's a definite term. As Bill said on SNL - "we cannot have the same president after this election".

Nothing wrong with that! She's come a long way; just think what 5 months or 5 years will bring. You think Barack brings more to the operating table???!!Obama is a young surgeon who's just finished residency. Palin is a biology student who's been given an MD license and OR privileges.

While we're on that analogy...:) Biden is the older surgeon who will be assisting Obama. McCain is the older surgeon who has developed an essential tremor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_tremor) in the last couple of years.

Obama is a young surgeon who's just finished residency. Palin is a biology student who's been given an MD license and OR privileges.

While we're on that analogy...:) Biden is the older surgeon who will be assisting Obama. McCain is the older surgeon who has developed an essential tremor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_tremor) in the last couple of years.

Well if Palin is working on you that would mean McCain was dead. At least with Obama there would be someone to say "hey don't cut that".

Amazingly, all the commentators I saw on NBC were saying Palin won by a mile.

I think Biden was far more coherent and passionate.

She won because she played it smart and only repeated what she was coached to say before the debate. If it didn't answer the question she just ignored the question. He tried to answer everything, but came off kind of long winded. As usual the American public prefers style over substance.

I don't post much in the politics forum because the Republican candidate sucks. I hate McCain, and I only think he would be marginally better than Obama. That doesn't really light a fire under me to debate the issues; combine that with the overwhelming snarkiness and smugness coming from the left, and it makes for an unpleasant posting experience.

:whofart: You're JOKING, right? So what you're saying is that you can dish it, but you can't take it.

It feels good to be right about all the crap I argued against so many against 4 years ago... Conservatives aren't going to admit their side is at fault- that's what makes them who they are.

You're right. I must have just imagined all the self-satisfaction pouring out of the left on this board. It's crazy for me and others to absent ourselves from the discussion when we get to deal with that sort of nonsense (nevermind the fact that those on the left are using a healthy dose of hindsight in their proclamations to have been "right all along," ignoring the fact that you can make the right call with the information at hand and still end up with bad results).

Or perhaps I should stick around and deal with the snotty attitude in defense of a candidate I don't even really like? I guarantee you that had Rudy, or Huckabee, or Romney won the nomination, there would be much more vehement support out of the right leaning posters. As I stated, we have a candidate that many of those on the right find somewhat distasteful, while the left gets to rally around their little Messiah. Of course the left is going to be more vocal this election cycle. It's not a concession on any given issue.

She won because she played it smart and only repeated what she was coached to say before the debate. If it didn't answer the question she just ignored the question. He tried to answer everything, but came off kind of long winded. As usual the American public prefers style over substance.

The polls are actually showing that more people think Senator Biden won the debate.

Two quick polls indicated that Biden fared better in the debate. A CBS News/Knowledge Networks Poll found that 46 percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate thought Biden won, with 21 percent siding with Palin. A CNN poll found respondents judging Biden the winner by a margin of 51 percent to 36 percent but calling Palin more likable by 54 percent to Biden's 36 percent.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jKLz7PW9AGelXQRIVxIeA0-kSB9AD93J6J8G0

You're right. I must have just imagined all the self-satisfaction pouring out of the left on this board. It's crazy for me and others to absent ourselves from the discussion when we get to deal with that sort of nonsense (nevermind the fact that those on the left are using a healthy dose of hindsight in their proclamations to have been "right all along," ignoring the fact that you can make the right call with the information at hand and still end up with bad results).

Or perhaps I should stick around and deal with the snotty attitude in defense of a candidate I don't even really like? I guarantee you that had Rudy, or Huckabee, or Romney won the nomination, there would be much more vehement support out of the right leaning posters. As I stated, we have a candidate that many of those on the right find somewhat distasteful, while the left gets to rally around their little Messiah. Of course the left is going to be more vocal this election cycle. It's not a concession on any given issue.

As long as there's no snottiness and self-satisfaction. -ohbfrank-

People on the left have been taking shit on DVDTalk since this subforum was opened to get the catcalls of "I need more proof" out of the main forum. Are there smug liberals who post here? Sure. There are smug people on both sides of the aisle who post here. And if you don't enjoy posting here or reading the things others post here, staying out of the forum is absolutely the right thing to do. But the idea that it's a problem unique to the liberals is silly.

The forum has changed from a majority of smug conservatives to a majority of smug liberals.

We centrists, as always, show absolutely no signs of smugness. However, we remain in the distinct minority. :)

The forum has changed from a majority of smug conservatives to a majority of smug liberals.

We centrists, as always, show absolutely no signs of smugness. However, we remain in the distinct minority. :)Holy shit dude, have you ever read your own posts? They are the very definition of smug!

1. I'm not your dude.

2. elitist - not smug

And if you don't enjoy posting here or reading the things others post here, staying out of the forum is absolutely the right thing to do. But the idea that it's a problem unique to the liberals is silly.

I understand the insult to Obama summoned you like an irresistible beacon to reply, but before you thrash the straw man, could you please tell me where I indicated the problem is unique to the left? I would contend it's currently more of a problem from the left, since they have the political advantage, but I'm well aware that in the past, the same sort of attitude has come more overwhelmingly from members of the right when they had the advantage.

Hell, I was pretty much agreeing with hahn in post 43, and I only came into disagreement with him when he seemed to challenge the notion that the left is the group being more snotty now.

The forum has changed from a majority of smug conservatives to a majority of smug liberals.

I find myself agreeing with cman2 more and more, which is disturbing me.

The forum has changed from a majority of smug conservatives to a majority of smug liberals.

We centrists, as always, show absolutely no signs of smugness. However, we remain in the distinct minority. :)

And what is funny is it's the same people as it was 4 years ago. I've been on the left since ... well ... Reagan.

And it's f'ing centerists who are the definition of "smugness". At least the cons that can admit Bush wasn't all that he was cracked up to be, are eating a little more crow these days...something most "centerists" can't claim, because they are always on the better side. :rolleyes:

lol

And it's f'ing centerists who are the definition of "smugness". At least the cons that can admit Bush wasn't all that he was cracked up to be, are eating a little more crow these days...something most "centerists" can't claim, because they are always on the better side. :rolleyes:



I don't have a clue what that paragraph is supposed to mean.

btw: centrists not centerists

I put classicman in the conservative pile. Not the centrist pile. you might have moved over a little bit, but back in the day you towed the party line and were drinking the kool aid with all the other bush sheep errr i mean republicans.

IMO

Palin came off a lot better than i expected last night. I still think is not ready for the big time but she came off very well. She looked like she studied very hard and came prepared to not look like an idiot.

I put classicman in the conservative pile. Not the centrist pile. you might have moved over a little bit, but back in the day you towed the party line and were drinking the kool aid with all the other bush sheep errr i mean republicans.


:lol:

Biden probably did a little better, but Palin did just fine. Since the expectations were so low for her, I voted for a tie.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42752000/jpg/_42752449_phelps416.jpg
http://www.dsalowcountry.org/images/Special_Olympics_M_MH.jpg

I call a tie on those two.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7241/sarahpalinflowchartxg8.gif

I put classicman in the conservative pile. Not the centrist pile. you might have moved over a little bit, but back in the day you towed the party line and were drinking the kool aid with all the other bush sheep errr i mean republicans.Uh...

I'm speechless.

I put classicman in the conservative pile. Not the centrist pile. you might have moved over a little bit, but back in the day you towed the party line and were drinking the kool aid with all the other bush sheep errr i mean republicans.


wrong pile

Maybe i am. I am just going on my memory from the past when politics was in other.

Know maybe c-man understands how Red Dog, Duran, and I feel when people say we're liberals. :lol:

I think the best thing that will result from this debate is the fire that it should light under Tuesday night's McCain - Obama match up. The first one was such a non-event and I hope that this will encourage a real debate the next time.

I think the best thing that will result from this debate is the fire that it should light under Tuesday night's McCain - Obama match up. The first one was such a non-event and I hope that this will encourage a real debate the next time.

Nobody is going to watch that.

1. I'm not your dude.Not understanding my ironic use of "dude" reveals your smugness.
2. elitist - not smugAnd since you're so consistently wrong so often, you're certainly no elite.


This is pretty much what I picture when I read your posts:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/Blackmirror007/cats/smugness.jpg

Nobody is going to watch that.

More people will watch it then would on a Friday night at least.

Maybe i am. I am just going on my memory from the past when politics was in other.

faulty memory

1. I'm not your dude.


:lol:

Know maybe c-man understands how Red Dog, Duran, and I feel when people say we're liberals. :lol:

But you know I'm joking when I say you or Red Dog or Duran are liberals.

Confused - but not liberals. ;)

Outside of some social issues - I can't think of anything I'm conservative on.

Well - I'm a conservative when it comes to adherence to The Constitution.

I believe idealogues (both conservative & liberal) often label anyone who disagrees with their idealogy to be a conservative or a liberal.

faulty memory

Like i said "maybe" i was wrong. I just have to go back and look at some threads to make sure.


Every one of the sheep (bush republicans) on the forum seems to have gone missing or changed their positions on things that its hard to find em anymore.

Maybe you consider anyone right of Karl Marx to be a conservative. ;)

classicman a Republican? That's rich. :lol:

He's a Democrat, he just likes to get a rise out of the left wing of the party.
-poke-

;)

Like i said "maybe" i was wrong. I just have to go back and look at some threads to make sure.


Every one of the sheep (bush republicans) on the forum seems to have gone missing or changed their positions on things that its hard to find em anymore.

Baaaaa!

The forum has changed from a majority of smug conservatives to a majority of smug liberals.

Pretty much. :sad:

The forum has changed and I missed it all? Damn it.

I've been a smug liberal all along.

I consider classicman a smug populist.

<---- Started out as a smug conservative, now a smug liberal.

<---- Started out as a smug conservative, now a smug liberal.That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm tending toward voting for Obama. It's going to make a whole lot of new conservatives.

Factcheck has a little video on the debate.
http://www.factcheck.org/just-the-facts/the_2008_vp_debate.html

That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm tending toward voting for Obama. It's going to make a whole lot of new conservatives.Yeah, that's why I voted for Bush twice. It totally works!

I always label myself as a left-leaning libertarian I used to not vote since I didn't like either party that much.

But the current batch of Republicans showed me that they will spend America into the ground if you give them free reign - and not even get us useful stuff like Health Care.

Between that and bad wars (Iraq) and trampling of civil rights in the name of fear (which plenty of Dems went along with, I know), they've forced me to go out and start voting for Democrats.

Hell this year I have a "Libertarians for Obama" sticker on my car cause I actually kinda like the guy.

I probably get labeled as a liberal on here too :lol: It's funny because my wife is a classical bleeding heart social worker liberal Democrat and it's funny to argue with her sometimes. "Ugh, you sound like a Republican!" :lol:


Oh, and I can't believe people think Palin actually did a good or OK job. McCain did an good job as far as you could tell he understood the issues and had presented his ideas about them fairly clearly.

Palin memorized some shit from flashcards and recited it. She showed no grasp of a lot of issues besides parroting memorized talking points and very badly avoided any questions that weren't covered by her flash-card depth understanding of the issues. I can't believe anyone, even partisans, thought it as a good performance. I'm amazed at how good of press she's getting for such an obviously weak performance. Where's that "liberal" biased media now?

I always label myself as a left-leaning liberal.


redundancy

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7241/sarahpalinflowchartxg8.gif

lol

OK lemme try a different tact or tack, why this love for Biden? Tell me why he is ... approved of so much.

I think many people thought differently of Biden when he was running against Obama for the nomination than they do now when he's Obama's running mate.

He's become much more endearing. :)

I always liked Biden. There are few major issues I disagree on him with but I agree with most of his votes. At every hearing I seen him in hearings and he always ask great questions and makes sound points. He is a politician so the BS does fly but he at least talks like a real person and with real emotion. Well that is my opinion any way.


Now with Palin I disagree with her on a few major issues but they are most important issues for me right now. I don't know enough about her to say I disagree with her on most issues but I would guess so. From her governor debates she seems pretty smart on issues dealing with Alaska. She doesn't seem to know much of anything outside of Alaska. She relies on memorizing talking points for the most part. I believe she is passionate on continuing the Iraq war but shows little passion or real emotion on anything else. She has a preppy way of doing things that comes out in everything she talks about. She repeats things that are proven to be untrue over and over so I can not really trust her. She might just have a different perspective but she never explains it. Then when faced with question she doesn't know she ignores it instead of explaining why she can not answer it or if it something she even cares about.

'I always liked Biden.'

You like him more now, don't you? ;)

All candidates attempt to memorize talking points in these 'debates.'

'I always liked Biden.'

You like him more now, don't you? ;)

All candidates attempt to memorize talking points in these 'debates.'
Of course. but Palin made it look obvious.

I don't really like any politicians, but Biden appears to represents the good side of "the average joe". Palin represents the bad side. Not from a political standpoint, but from a "living life" point of view. She comes off as someone who doesn't really understand why she believes in the things that she does. That isn't a reflection of those beliefs (I share similar beliefs) but that she appears to have a significant lack of foundation for those beliefs.

'I always liked Biden.'

You like him more now, don't you? ;)

All candidates attempt to memorize talking points in these 'debates.'
I have always liked Biden. I sent money to him this election season when he was running. I'd rather him be at the top of the ticket (or perhaps tapped for Sec of State as he's better suited for that position), but I support his running as VP. I have always been in the Joe Biden camp (except when he helped out the credit card companies instead of voting to help the little guy on the bankruptcy revamp).

Again - in the area where I think we're going to face the biggest problem in the near future - energy - I ask you - which of the 4 do you believe has the best knowledge of it?

Again - in the area where I think we're going to face the biggest problem in the near future - energy - I ask you - which of the 4 do you believe has the best knowledge of it?
Are we talking about old energy or new energy?

If we're talking about oil, obviously Palin is your man, so to speak.

Again - in the area where I think we're going to face the biggest problem in the near future - energy - I ask you - which of the 4 do you believe has the best knowledge of it?I think that there are many people OUTSIDE of politics who have a thousand more times knowledge than all 4 candidates combined. The appropriate question to ask here is, which of the 4 do you believe are most likely to recognize who has the best ideas and implement them. The knowledge of energy that any of these 4 possess is miniscule and completely irrelevant to our future.

And the answer to THIS question IMHO, far and away, is Obama.

EDIT: Apologies to those who responded to my now edited post. I reconsidered the question and realized the question as currently framed by classicman2 was completely irrelevant.