A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

[89981]

A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power



A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power
John Gray -- The Guardian (Britain)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...economicgrowth

... Having created the conditions that produced history's biggest bubble, America's political leaders appear unable to grasp the magnitude of the dangers the country now faces. Mired in their rancorous culture wars and squabbling among themselves, they seem oblivious to the fact that American global leadership is fast ebbing away. A new world is coming into being almost unnoticed, where America is only one of several great powers, facing an uncertain future it can no longer shape.

[Bandoman]

Is John Gray a Time Monk?

[DVD Polizei]

The US is slowly losing its power. A global economy assures this.

John is a little dire, but I get his drift...even though whilst to some, it might seem a tad daft.

But I'm sure Mr. Gray has conveniently overlooked foreign investments and investors which decided to blissfully ride the great Mortgage-backed Wave of Greed.

[X]

Yeah, I read that we lost the entire value of India's economy in one day. I'm feeling it.

[wabio]

I'm still optimistic about our long term prospects, what worries me most is longterm slowdown in economic growth. I just can't see us getting the same returns over the next 30 years as the past 30. If so, how are people supposed to accummulate these ridiculous ammounts of money for retirement if growth and the stock market stay subdued.

[bhk]

I'm extremely optimistic about the market as long as the market is allowed to do what it does. With this bailout, we are giving control to the very people(the govt.) that allowed this bubble to form.

[hitmanjules]

The government or the greedy captains of money and industry?

I say Americans take a page from the past and apply a little mob justice. Kind of a "from the rabble" warning to the next crop of life-suckers. Didn't it recently happen to a CEO in India? No tears.

[hahn]

The link appears to be broken.

[greg9x]

I don't disagree with that sentiment.... Coorporate greed, substandard political leadership, lack of work ethics and financial responsibility by the people, and being mired in a war that has shown we are not the 'big bad ass' everyone thought we were....we can no longer bully the rest of the world into siding with us. The shine has worn off our 'Leader of the free world' badge. Sure, this is still one of the best places to live at the moment and people still want to come here.... but we are only a few missteps away from turmoil and grief. Recent events have shown a light on that possibility.
With the right leadership and change of attitude from the American people we could avoid that, but is the system too broken ?

[bhk]

The government or the greedy captains of money and industry?



It was the same people that are crafting this bill that blocked oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that caused this problem. The "greedy" Captains of money and industry made the bad loans because their loan was guaranteed by the govt. Unfortunately for them, that guarantee was the value of Franklin Raines ethics.

[Sean O'Hara]

In terms of military dominance, the US has a long way to fall before it ceases to be a Super Power, and no other country at this point can be considered more than a regional Great Power.

As for economics -- this is going to be a global meltdown, so predicting who comes up dominant has the same chance of being right as predicting a roulette wheel.

[Dr Mabuse]

The government or the greedy captains of money and industry?

There is no difference in these two things.

They are one in the same.

You could say "the body or the mind?" and it would be an aptly synonymous phrase for the quoted portion above.

[Dr Mabuse]

In terms of military dominance, the US has a long way to fall before it ceases to be a Super Power, and no other country at this point can be considered more than a regional Great Power.

We are already using merc armies like every empire that was in decline.

The US doesn't manufacture many of the parts and materials used to make and repair our military assets.

We are farther along down that road than many realize.

I agree it isn't going to happen tomorrow. But history teaches us the military might is what empowers the inevitable dictatorship that will follow this democracy, don't think the military will preserve our nation as we know it.

[Sierra Disc]

Living outside America, I can say -- it's already lost. China and India have roared ahead while the US has been mired in the Bush years and Iraq.

[Pharoh]

Living outside America, I can say -- it's already lost. China and India have roared ahead while the US has been mired in the Bush years and Iraq.

Yeah, because they have no problems that leave them decades behind America.

[Tuan Jim]

The government or the greedy captains of money and industry?

I say Americans take a page from the past and apply a little mob justice. Kind of a "from the rabble" warning to the next crop of life-suckers. Didn't it recently happen to a CEO in India? No tears.

Not sure what your source for this story was, but having read actual articles on the event, I'd be more than a little concerned if things started happening in the US along the same lines as that "mob justice" (http://publication.samachar.com/pub_article.php?id=2739647&navname=India &moreurl=http://publication.samachar.com/financialtimes/general/india.php&homeurl=http://publication.samachar.com&nextids=2770128|2769693|2769694|2762454|2762455|2761887|2761203|2760525|2760526|2759746|2757302|2757 303|2756800|2756801|2756802|2755257|2754687|2749108|2741993|2741994|2740784|2739646|2739647|2732617| 2731987|2731989|2731988|2731991|2731990|2727416|2727024|2726169|2726170|2725206|2725207|2718992|2718 034|2718035|2717386|2713350|2711631|2710581|2710035|2708816|2703867|2696886|2696531|2694661|2693010| 2690995&nextIndex=23) in India.

[Sean O'Hara]

We are already using merc armies like every empire that was in decline.

Like the Brits using Hessians during the American Revolution? The height of British power was about seventy years after that.

The US doesn't manufacture many of the parts and materials used to make and repair our military assets.

We are farther along down that road than many realize.

We can place troops in any country on Earth. That is a capability we're in no imminent danger of losing. Until we do, we are a Super Power.

I agree it isn't going to happen tomorrow. But history teaches us the military might is what empowers the inevitable dictatorship that will follow this democracy, don't think the military will preserve our nation as we know it.

The nature of American soldiers will have to change significantly for that to happen.

[DVD Polizei]

We are farther along down that road than many realize.

I agree it isn't going to happen tomorrow. But history teaches us the military might is what empowers the inevitable dictatorship that will follow this democracy, don't think the military will preserve our nation as we know it.

Totally agree. For those who think this isn't going to happen, well, if you look back only a few years on posts made by myself and others, we said the housing market was going to crash. Many here said the economy was too robust for this to happen, real estate almost always goes up, the free market will decide, etc.

Americans believe they are innocuous to historical moments of advice and warning which span several thousand years. The reason why Americans are so oblivious to being controlled, is because your government tells you it cannot happen. Do we not have a more perfect icon, right now at this moment, which is telling Americans everything is fine one moment, then tells them the next moment if they don't agree, the entire country will collapse. It's extremism. It's the politics of fear.

When the government is afraid of losing control, you will see and hear more ideologies and propaganda which make you fear any outside interference from anything other than the official mouthpiece. Foreign policy will be more extreme. Domestic policy will be more extreme. And then eventually, you'll start seeing the US Military being used for seemingly frivolous reasons.

One of the major reasons why I didn't like this Iraq war was due to our National Guard being used in military combat. Some of us know the thought and theory of using civilian guards in a military environment, and then bringing them back. Same goes for military personnel used in a civilian setting, and where the military will eventually view the civilians as the enemy. It's a fact it happens. We have the documented behaviors (for those interested, do a search on a popular psychology study where college students were pretending to be guards, and other students were the "prisoners"--not a happy ending).

The US has more of an economic dictatorship than anything else at the moment. It is guaranteeing the survival of the top corporations and businesses, and affirms they operate on a different system than you or I do. When you have a government making distinctions between the more affluent and less affluent, you begin down the road of the inevitable clash of a country's culture and people.

[Hank Ringworm]

The Romans used mercenary armies to protect the existence of their state. We use "mercenary armies" to clean up after our regular forces, who are, in the old terms, conquering territory on the other side of the world.

There's a bit of a difference there.

[Hank Ringworm]

I don't think the American "empire" can be illuminated in the light of history's great empires. Ours is an empire of ideology, not of the man-god (Macedonian and Roman) or of the merchant-god (British) or of the plain old god (Ottoman).

That said, I do fear that American power is declining. It's declining at the same rate and for the same reasons that the entire "modern" world is declining. I think we've advanced too far. That is, we exist in our own world, a premature Utopia. The death of religion and the advancement of society has led to demographic issues, for one. Our economy is a meta-economy in which investments are invested and production, not goods, is sold, for another.

If we can successfully "advance" the rest of the world to deprive them of their advantages, we'll be good for the long haul. If not, one of these "backward" cultures that actually praises strength and physical labor and sees beauty in procreation and state-above-self ideology will probably take us down. Unless we nuke 'em. I'm only half-joking there, because the possibility of mass destruction changes the equation, so long as our enemy is kind enough to be geographically centered.

[Dr Mabuse]

Like the Brits using Hessians during the American Revolution? The height of British power was about seventy years after that.
No not like the British.
We can place troops in any country on Earth. That is a capability we're in no imminent danger of losing. Until we do, we are a Super Power.
So our troops will run the manufacturing plants? You rather completely missed my point.
The nature of American soldiers will have to change significantly for that to happen.
Really? You've single-handedly disproved the entire recorded history of democracies and empires.

Congrats I guess.

[Dr Mabuse]

The Romans used mercenary armies to protect the existence of their state. We use "mercenary armies" to clean up after our regular forces, who are, in the old terms, conquering territory on the other side of the world.

There's a bit of a difference there.

The Romans, that's a good start.

Why did the Romans use mercs?

Name some other empires who were merc heavy at the end of their days and how that affected them.

[hahn]

I'm agreeing with all of Dr. Mabuse's posts....wait...what?

[hahn]

Yeah, because they have no problems that leave them decades behind America.Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

"Look what we did during WW2!" "How awesome were we in the cold war?" "We've dominated the last 30 years of Olympics!" "We were the first country to walk on the moon!" "We created the internet." "We have the best military in the world" (and they all happen to be in Iraq and Afghanistan now).

Half the time, you'd think people were talking about the Yankees or the Lakers. And this ultimately is our downfall. The people of this country no longer have aspirations to do great things for the sake of accomplishment. Now, we can only do it if there's a pot of gold at the end. And so is it any wonder, that we as a country have lost our way? We don't actually DO anything anymore to earn money. We shuffle debt around. We expect companies (stocks) and real estate to make us wealthy. And somehow we feel that this is right. That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich. And unfortunately, I think it will take an economic disaster on the level of the Great Depression to wake this country up out of its slumber. To realize how stupid it is to try to police the world, to have Homeland Security, to wiretap people's phones. Because it IS all stupid when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head or having a hot meal. The people in China and India appreciate this danger. The people in the U.S. do not and so we forget how easily it can all be taken away.

[Hank Ringworm]

The Romans, that's a good start.

Why did the Romans use mercs?

Name some other empires who were merc heavy at the end of their days and how that affected them.

I'm not going to take your condescending little quiz. I know the answers, and I know why you asked the questions. But I put it to you to make a better argument that the American empire can be compared productively to any other empire that has graced this world's lovely history.

EDIT: This is not to say that I think we're above history. My comments elsewhere have shown that I'm primarily a realist. But there are fundamental differences between this latest empire and every other one that has existed, not in the least because there are fundamental differences between this world and every other one that has existed. And not holy-shit-the-English-have-longbowman-and-know-how-to-use-them-differences.

[hahn]

But I put it to you to make a better argument that the American empire can be compared productively to any other empire that has graced this world's lovely history.

EDIT: This is not to say that I think we're above history. My comments elsewhere have shown that I'm primarily a realist. But there are fundamental differences between this latest empire and every other one that has existed, not in the least because there are fundamental differences between this world and every other one that has existed. And not holy-shit-the-English-have-longbowman-and-know-how-to-use-them-differences.There isn't. But then again, every other empire in history could have also said the same thing. At their point in time.

[Hank Ringworm]

Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

"Look what we did during WW2!" "How awesome were we in the cold war?" "We've dominated the last 30 years of Olympics!" "We were the first country to walk on the moon!" "We created the internet." "We have the best military in the world" (and they all happen to be in Iraq and Afghanistan now).

Half the time, you'd think people were talking about the Yankees or the Lakers. And this ultimately is our downfall. The people of this country no longer have aspirations to do great things for the sake of accomplishment. Now, we can only do it if there's a pot of gold at the end. And so is it any wonder, that we as a country have lost our way? We don't actually DO anything anymore to earn money. We shuffle debt around. We expect companies (stocks) and real estate to make us wealthy. And somehow we feel that this is right. That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich. And unfortunately, I think it will take an economic disaster on the level of the Great Depression to wake this country up out of its slumber. To realize how stupid it is to try to police the world, to have Homeland Security, to wiretap people's phones. Because it IS all stupid when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head or having a hot meal. The people in China and India appreciate this danger. The people in the U.S. do not and so we forget how easily it can all be taken away.

Wow. I'm agreeing with hahn. Completely, almost. But I would posit that it's very stupid to worry about whether or not your government is wiretapping people's phones when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head.

People in China and India appreciate that, and their governments are more secure for it. Not better, of course--I'm not suggesting totalitarianism here--but more secure. In a worst-case scenario, security is going to be the only thing that matters. This is where they have an edge. In the short term, at least, because in the long term, if we handle things correctly, all things move toward freedom.

[Goldblum]

Living outside America, I can say -- it's already lost. China and India have roared ahead while the US has been mired in the Bush years and Iraq.

Come on, now. :lol:

[Pharoh]

Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

"Look what we did during WW2!" "How awesome were we in the cold war?" "We've dominated the last 30 years of Olympics!" "We were the first country to walk on the moon!" "We created the internet." "We have the best military in the world" (and they all happen to be in Iraq and Afghanistan now).

Half the time, you'd think people were talking about the Yankees or the Lakers. And this ultimately is our downfall. The people of this country no longer have aspirations to do great things for the sake of accomplishment. Now, we can only do it if there's a pot of gold at the end. And so is it any wonder, that we as a country have lost our way? We don't actually DO anything anymore to earn money. We shuffle debt around. We expect companies (stocks) and real estate to make us wealthy. And somehow we feel that this is right. That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich. And unfortunately, I think it will take an economic disaster on the level of the Great Depression to wake this country up out of its slumber. To realize how stupid it is to try to police the world, to have Homeland Security, to wiretap people's phones. Because it IS all stupid when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head or having a hot meal. The people in China and India appreciate this danger. The people in the U.S. do not and so we forget how easily it can all be taken away.

Yes. And I have seen, and know about, the huge issues they face, the decisions they are going to be forced to make. I am aware of the massive environmental problems, the huge amount of NPLs, their savings rate, the rampant systematic corruption, and coming soon a housing crisis which, while I understand and expect that the government will spend anything and everything to try to not allow a collapse and will likely be successful, would dwarf anything the West is going through. The resulting banking crisis would be truly disastrous.

But hey, the grass is always greener, more for some than others.

[Sean O'Hara]

Totally agree. For those who think this isn't going to happen, well, if you look back only a few years on posts made by myself and others, we said the housing market was going to crash. Many here said the economy was too robust for this to happen, real estate almost always goes up, the free market will decide, etc.


I once flipped a coin and said it'd come up heads -- and it did! You should believe every prediction I make about coin flips.

[Sean O'Hara]

No not like the British.

So using mercenaries to help in wars overseas is bad -- unless you're the Brits importing Hessians to rebellious colonies?

Okay then, how about the Byzantians -- at the height of their power, they used mercs as much as their Roman brethren.

So our troops will run the manufacturing plants? You rather completely missed my point.

I don't see how that's relevant to our Super Power status.

Really? You've single-handedly disproved the entire recorded history of democracies and empires.

Congrats I guess.

I don't have to disprove it -- I have to show it isn't happening today. If you want to argue that the US is following the same trajectory as Rome, then we've barely reached the end of the Republic -- notice that Gibbon's book doesn't pick up the history of Rome until five centuries later.

[hahn]

But hey, the grass is always greener, more for some than others.An apt proverb. Except that you believe the inverse is true. That our grass is greener than everyone else's.

[Pharoh]

An apt proverb. Except that you believe the inverse is true. That our grass is greener than everyone else's.


More appropriately, I believe that the United States is one of a handful of nations that have less weeds and brown spots on their lawns. And that belief comes from experience.

[Mordred]

That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich.I'm not rich. I did grow up surrounded by rich people (I was the "poor" scholarship kid at a ritzy private school) and I work with a lot of rich people. There isn't a single one of them I would consider lazy. There are a lot I would consider assholes, but none lazy. This country still rewards hard work no matter what you think.

[Dr Mabuse]

There isn't. But then again, every other empire in history could have also said the same thing. At their point in time.

They did.

They all did.

There is nothing new under the sun.

[ctyankee]

working link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/28/usforeignpolicy.useconomicgrowth

[hahn]

I'm not rich. I did grow up surrounded by rich people (I was the "poor" scholarship kid at a ritzy private school) and I work with a lot of rich people. There isn't a single one of them I would consider lazy. There are a lot I would consider assholes, but none lazy. This country still rewards hard work no matter what you think.
I don't mean to say that if you are rich, then you are lazy. That's not what I meant at all. What I meant was that there is this expectation that [for example] if you are just clever enough to buy a house in a hot area at the right time, you can be an overnight millionaire with very little effort. That in order to do this, you should borrow money that's way above your means to do this. People have forgotten that the economy can go south, so people thus make financial decisions on the assumption that it never will.

[hahn]

More appropriately, I believe that the United States is one of a handful of nations that have less weeds and brown spots on their lawns. And that belief comes from experience.You really want to take this analogy this far? Fine. Weeds and brown spots can grow. Likewise, they can be removed by nations who understand they have weeds and brown spots. The attitude by so many members on this board is that they're insignificant enough that we no longer need to water or fertilize the lawn, but we can sure tell other people about how ratty theirs looks.

[bhk]

You really want to take this analogy this far? Fine. Weeds and brown spots can grow. Likewise, they can be removed by nations who understand they have weeds and brown spots. The attitude by so many members on this board is that they're insignificant enough that we no longer need to water or fertilize the lawn, but we can sure tell other people about how ratty theirs looks.

People realize that therea are weeds and brown spots. The problem is in the case of the financial welfare package, we are giving money to the people who caused the weeds and brown spots to fix it.

[Vandelay_Inds]

I've become quite disenchanted with America myself. :(

[Vandelay_Inds]

Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

"Look what we did during WW2!" "How awesome were we in the cold war?" "We've dominated the last 30 years of Olympics!" "We were the first country to walk on the moon!" "We created the internet." "We have the best military in the world" (and they all happen to be in Iraq and Afghanistan now).

Half the time, you'd think people were talking about the Yankees or the Lakers. And this ultimately is our downfall. The people of this country no longer have aspirations to do great things for the sake of accomplishment. Now, we can only do it if there's a pot of gold at the end. And so is it any wonder, that we as a country have lost our way? We don't actually DO anything anymore to earn money. We shuffle debt around. We expect companies (stocks) and real estate to make us wealthy. And somehow we feel that this is right. That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich. And unfortunately, I think it will take an economic disaster on the level of the Great Depression to wake this country up out of its slumber. To realize how stupid it is to try to police the world, to have Homeland Security, to wiretap people's phones. Because it IS all stupid when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head or having a hot meal. The people in China and India appreciate this danger. The people in the U.S. do not and so we forget how easily it can all be taken away.

Other than the highlighted sentence, I agree with hahn. -eek-

[RKillgore]

The link appears to be broken.

Try this.
A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/28/usforeignpolicy.useconomicgrowth)

[Hank Ringworm]

They did.

They all did.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Tell me how, using your own arguments. Nuclear weapons changed nothing? The idea of a true ideological empire changed nothing? Each empire in history has been different from the last. If not in result, then definitely in aim. You seem to think that all empires are the same. I submit that they are not.

Don't respond with stupid, obvious questions about history. Make your own argument.

Every time I step over the threshold, I trip. But what if I flat-out jumped over the thing?

[wabio]

Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

"Look what we did during WW2!" "How awesome were we in the cold war?" "We've dominated the last 30 years of Olympics!" "We were the first country to walk on the moon!" "We created the internet." "We have the best military in the world" (and they all happen to be in Iraq and Afghanistan now).

Half the time, you'd think people were talking about the Yankees or the Lakers. And this ultimately is our downfall. The people of this country no longer have aspirations to do great things for the sake of accomplishment. Now, we can only do it if there's a pot of gold at the end. And so is it any wonder, that we as a country have lost our way? We don't actually DO anything anymore to earn money. We shuffle debt around. We expect companies (stocks) and real estate to make us wealthy. And somehow we feel that this is right. That we are entitled to be both lazy AND rich. And unfortunately, I think it will take an economic disaster on the level of the Great Depression to wake this country up out of its slumber. To realize how stupid it is to try to police the world, to have Homeland Security, to wiretap people's phones. Because it IS all stupid when you're in danger of not having a roof over your head or having a hot meal. The people in China and India appreciate this danger. The people in the U.S. do not and so we forget how easily it can all be taken away.

Pretty much my sentiments as well. Sometimes I think the wealthy elite can smell the disaster coming and are just trying to cash out before the ball drops. And if it does drop, we have nobody but ourselves to blame. I've been saying for years that greed (not military defeat) will be the most likely cause of a U.S. downfall if it occurs. I just wish I had saved those threads. :(

Sometimes I feel one of our biggest problems is the big disconnect nowadays in the workplace between the employee and employer. There simply isn't any trust, faith, or loyalty anymore. Employers seem willing to layoff workers whenever and whereever, while disenchanted and discouraged workers only seem willing to work hard enough not to get fired or until a better opportunity presents itself. Or worse yet, disgrundled employees wanting to leave the rat-race all together via disability, lawsuit, etc. It all culminates into a lost sense of pride. It's as if we are all working as individual robots looking after ourselves instead of striving as a team towards a common goal. There simply isn't any drive or passion anymore.

In terms of national production, I still have a hard time believing a reported GDP of 3% today is the same as 3% twenty years ago when we don't manufacture anything anymore. Similar to hahn's analogy of false wealth via shuffled debt, I think the same can be said about measured productivity since "services" are factored into the GDP. I simply have a hard time believing a cashier making $10 per hour is the same as a laborer creating $10 worth of product to be sold. This exact transition is a microcosm of what has happened in California over the past decade. A slow but steady transformation from a production economy into an in-service economy. On a national level, I simply don't see how this model is sustainable once other countries are up to par.

[Superboy]

Living outside America, I can say -- it's already lost. China and India have roared ahead while the US has been mired in the Bush years and Iraq.

It's nice to see that some people in this world still regard something happening in real life is less important than someone's opinion in the paper.

It's too easy to make the argument that the US is on a slow, steady decline. The US has been fraught with chaos since day one. There has never been a period lasting any significant amount of time that had any semblance of lasting peace.

Regardless, that article was extremely vague. He mentioned "countries that rejected America's model of capitalism are poised to take over". Which countries would that be? He mentioned that the US is on its knees, but I don't recall us bowing to the wishes of a foreign government. China landing on the moon is supposed to be scarier than them going nuclear more than a decade ago? Other countries aren't accelerating past us, they're simply riding in our wake.

[ctyankee]

Have you been to China? If you had, you would see what Sierra Disc meant. The main thing he's talking about is the attitude of its citizens. The Chinese are looking to the future. We Americans live in the past. You don't even have to look any further than this forum for proof. So many people continue to brag about past achievements of the U.S. as if past glories will continue to sustain this country indefinitely in the future. Even worse is that they take credit for it even if they weren't even a part of those accomplishments (or even a live at the time)

I remember talking heads at expensive conferences telling the audience that the loss of manufacturing is not a problem as the U.S. would lead the new economy based on ideas.

The problem was and is that there are no shortages of ideas in this world and people smart enough to leverage them.

I tell my kids that I work with young consultants that already speak three languages fluently and are busy adding a fourth. Hard working? They have that in spades as well as being extremely bright. Point being they are working in THIS country taking a job from someone else's son or daughter and deservedly so as we move into a global economy run by global corporations. Like a great college soccer team they recruit world-wide in order to compete with others doing the same thing.

But my kids grow up thinking they are competing against Johnny in their algebra class when they are really competing against some kid in a foreign country that can (and does) score higher on the English/Verbal portion of the SAT then my kids or your kids AND are perhaps two levels above them in competency in Algebra.

We need to do what Ireland has done and get back to basics. As little as 20 years ago, their economy was way down compared to other European countries. Now their economy is ranked number one in Europe. They invested heavily in education and it paid off.

Now our problems clearly go far beyond just the issues of education. How do we go in debt financing a war and expect to remain viable? What foreign countries would invest money here? I also have no idea what we've won when the battles are over. China and India are laughing at us all the way to the bank.

[Pharoh]

Ireland is the first country in Europe to be in a recession. With a huge banking and housing crisis to boot.


Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[X]

We need to do what Ireland has done and get back to basics. As little as 20 years ago, their economy was way down compared to other European countries. Now their economy is ranked number one in Europe. They invested heavily in education and it paid off.Ireland did a lot more than just invest in education.

[classicman2]

Ireland is the first country in Europe to be in a recession. With a huge banking and housing crisis to boot.


Just thought I'd throw that in there.


Now that you've thrown that in, feel free to retire from the thread. :)

[Pharoh]

Now that you've thrown that in, feel free to retire from the thread. :)

Thanks.

:)




I guess I shouldn't worry about reality anymore.

[classicman2]

Since when has realty been the norm in this forum? :lol:

Much of the time it's rejected - witness Iraq for example.

[Dr Mabuse]

Tell me how, using your own arguments. Nuclear weapons changed nothing? The idea of a true ideological empire changed nothing? Each empire in history has been different from the last. If not in result, then definitely in aim. You seem to think that all empires are the same. I submit that they are not.

It's the men that are the same. This is the chief lesson of history.

There is a famine of historical perspective in the US.

[ctyankee]

Ireland is the first country in Europe to be in a recession. With a huge banking and housing crisis to boot.


Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Just because you throw it out there doesn't make it true.

The word recession is tossed around so it basically means nothing anymore other than things going south.

Sure Ireland overbuilt, no doubt about it. Real estate is always cyclical and always will be. Problems come with economic growth.

Where are our problems that come with economic growth? We should be so lucky.

Ireland went from a country bleeding talent to other countries like the United States to talent happy to stay home. That's a big change.

[Superboy]

It's the men that are the same. This is the chief lesson of history.

There is a famine of historical perspective in the US.

If anything, the stakes are higher now.

[VinVega]

Perhaps we won't be a hyperpower. Many countries in the world don't want us to be that, but we're not put in a position to bow to the will of any one country. I just think there is a lot of gloom and doom in this thread. It's not the end of America. We are in for some tough times ahead, as is every other country in the global economy.

[Dr Mabuse]

History tells the tale man. No nation, empire, etc. has ever survived save in name alone, like China for instance. Every nation that was in the situation we are in as a nation was soon to fail, every one, not one exception. This has been known for hundreds of years, this was known by the Founding Fathers. It's not some 'conspiracy theory' or 'doom & gloom' pessimism, it's simple history.

If you see good things ahead for us you are unrealistic in your optimism.

I hope it didn't seem I was saying we would be 'done for' next week, next month or next year. The timescale on things like this are slower than most.

[VinVega]

If you see good things ahead for us you are unrealistic in your optimism.
I said we're in for tough times. That doesn't sound like good things to me. I disagree that this is the end of America like a few people in this thread are suggesting.

[Dr Mabuse]

This current financial crisis?

No. This current situation isn't the end of America by any means I think.

And I meant more of a long view when I posted "good times ahead".

These things move at a slower pace because of the scale of it.

[crazyronin]

Since when has realty been the norm in this forum?

When its...

http://www.kvrealty.com/kvlogo3.gif

[drak b]

Yeah, thank goodness the wise, thoughtful Europeans would never run into similar difficulties. After all, problems with lending, banks and such could only happen because of insatiable American greed and couldn’t impact them.

Oh wait…

Europe: Scramble on to rescue big banks
http://www.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/10/05/german.bank.hypo.rescue.ap/index.html

A rising tide lifts all boats and a… well, you get the idea.

[Pharoh]

Just because you throw it out there doesn't make it true.

The word recession is tossed around so it basically means nothing anymore other than things going south.

Sure Ireland overbuilt, no doubt about it. Real estate is always cyclical and always will be. Problems come with economic growth.

Where are our problems that come with economic growth? We should be so lucky.

Ireland went from a country bleeding talent to other countries like the United States to talent happy to stay home. That's a big change.


:lol:

I know. It is true because it is true. (There are measurements of these things, official and everything).


I agree though that Ireland's turnaround has been amazing, and a positive example for the rest of Europe. However, as X alluded to, much of what fueled that turnaround may not be willingly acknowledged by some detractors of America and our present administration.

[Hank Ringworm]

Mabuse,

What if we had so much historical perspective--not as a quantity within us, but rather as a perspective built into our systems--that we noticed the trends and averted them?

You claim that we don't have historical perspective, but at the same time you deny that we can learn from history. I understand your human nature arguments, but I think you ignore political nature, which nowadays trumps the human. I think there is a political continuum which starts with the ascent from nature and ends in global democracy. Sure, we'll face threats from totalitarian states, but we fought a Long, long war (from the US Civil War to the current War on Terror) against such states, and we have been successful so far.

The big issue is that our current empire is one of ideology. You could make the argument that, while the British empire died in name, it lives on in the systems of the nations she left behind, the United States chief among them. It was, after all, the first step to a global economy. The US takes this to the next level. It doesn't have to last in name, though it probably will. As long as democracy lives on, so does the "empire" of the United States.

Sure, democracies have existed in the past, and all have reverted to tyranny. We may have to do that at some point. (Machiavelli was right when he said that all systems must occasionally revert to their original state, which, in every case, is Prince-led.) But I have yet to see theoretical evidence that any tyranny in our future history will be lasting. We've had a taste of democracy, and we will only let it go in the direst of circumstances, and then only temporarily.

Sure, we may become apathetic. But this is not the Roman world. There are no foreign powers that can challenge us in the near future. The likelihood that such powers will show up later is decreased with every hour widespread democracy exists in the world. Unless there is a "perfect storm" of economic, military, and demographic hardships, we will have no problem fending off attacks. And as the economy (and our political ideology) becomes more globalized, these hardships will become relatively unnoticeable.

This is why I based our survival as a nation on our ability to properly "advance" foreign nations. Democracies do not make war with democracies, especially when they are intertwined in a global economy. But even if our nation somehow does not survive, our true tool of empire, our ideology, will probably live on.

Men change depending on the systems in which they live. Thus have men been changing since the beginning of history, and thus have empires changed in nature since Alexander became the man-god ruler of the East. All things are working towards liberalism and globalization, it is clear from the first empire to the latest. The empire that achieves both of these will last indefinitely, or at least until aliens attack.

(If this is disjointed, it's because I'm still recovering from the 2nd Debate Drinking Game. But you're smart enough to make sense of it.)